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6:00 PM
bah, consoles?
consoles offer the best experience
 
No.
 
(mostly) fixed hardware
 
no
 
Mostly outdated hardware
 
you guys are heretics :)
 
6:00 PM
you are the heretic :)
 
Closed platforms
 
@emartel I prefer using the command line interface as well.
 
my nickname is dumb, yet there is already a user on github. this sucks.
 
@StackedCrooked Oh come on.
 
maybe, but the code and shaders are optimized for the specific hardware, pushing it to the limit
 
6:01 PM
@emartel Oh really? Then how come Wii doesn't support HD textures, yet its emulator on PC does?
 
@TonyTheLion wow
 
Overspecialised
 
@CatPlusPlus who cares that it's closed?
 
@CatPlusPlus Now you sound like those French hipster devs who say Python is better than .NET because it's open.
2
 
6:01 PM
@Cicada oh, well, who cares about the Wii? :P Serious developers don't target this console
 
Open platforms are important so we don't drown in fuckload of shitty DRM
Seriously, fuck DRM forever
 
@emartel Sorry what? "Who cares about the first console on the market"? lolwut
 
@CatPlusPlus you know that game devs. need to earn a living, and this is made through signed code authentication... check what happened with the Dreamcast
 
@Cheersandhth.-Alf I didn't, actually. I made it a struct. Then I noticed, you wanted 'class', so I changed it around :) I can't really know what else you put in there :)
 
@Cicada First, actually.
 
6:03 PM
@emartel Nope, bullshit
 
@EtiennedeMartel I thought it was the XBOX 2PI
 
@Cicada the Wii is not interesting for 3rd partys... most of the best sellers are Nintendo games
 
Eidos Montreal doesn't make games for the Wii, though, so that's why he doesn't give a shit.
 
@emartel > implying Nintendo are not serious developers and that 3rd parties are
 
oh no, I didn't give a shit when I was at Ubi too
 
6:03 PM
Ahahaha It wasn't It said The last message was posted 1 hour ago. here :) I changed my system clock
 
@emartel Yeah, but they mostly don't do Wii games either.
 
Oh, Ubisoft
Everything is clear now
 
@Cicada exactly
 
I don't care about consoles, so I can't blame you for not caring about the Wii :p
 
@CatPlusPlus how is it so?
 
6:04 PM
@emartel Please hang yourself.
Dis donc Etienne tu nous ramènes un de tes cousins prépubères ?
 
@EtiennedeMartel neither does most publishers, unless we're talking about cheap ports made in Hungary or whatever
 
Elon Musk wants to send millions of people to Mars
 
@Cicada s'il vous plait, reste polie? ;) merci
 
@Cicada I reckon he reads French :0
 
@sehe precisely
 
6:05 PM
@Cicada Le gars est senior dev. Et il a le cancer, semble-t-il. Un peu de respect.
 
hahah ouais
I have cancer
pay respect :P
 
Console cancer.
I'm not paying more or less respect because you have or don't have cancer. This is the fucking internets.
 
@Cicada but I don't understand you... I tell you there's no money in the Wii for 3rd party developers, and you ask me to hang myself?
 
Also consoles are a reason for shitty ports on PC so there is absolutely no redeeming quality there
 
@Cicada I was being sarcastic
 
6:06 PM
Anyway, Metroid Prime was a console game. And it rocked my socks. It still does today. So I guess the point isn't the hardware, it's the software. And consoles had many excellent games.
 
@emartel Not the nicest attitude, in my humble opinion
 
@emartel You're saying Nintendo are not serious developers and that 3rd parties are. Given the utter bullshit of that (possibly carcinogenous) statement, I ask you to end your torment ASAP.
 
@CatPlusPlus controls suffer the most in the conversion... but other then that, most games are primarily developed on PC and tested on consoles
@sehe what did I say?
 
(But yeah, closed platforms suck)
 
@Cicada no, Ubisoft Montreal is 2400+ employees and I left after shipping Assassin's Creed
so like 5 years ago
 
6:08 PM
@Cicada Well, they do have incredibly crappy SDKs.
 
@Cicada alright, most serious developers avoid Nintendo (other than crappy ports that are contracted), is it better?
 
@emartel Dark Souls was completely unplayable with mouse+kb
 
@EtiennedeMartel Comparing the quality of the SDK to the quality of the games is nonsense.
 
@Cicada I thought we were talking about 3rd parties here.
Still, yeah, of the top 20 best selling games on the Wii, 17 were published by Nintendo.
 
@melak47 yeah, I'm not surprised... games often rely on 2 analog sticks, porting that to keyboard + mouse doesn't work too well
 
6:09 PM
@EtiennedeMartel We were arguing on the bullshitness of this statement
 
Analog sticks are funny
 
@emartel walking <-> WASD aiming <-> mouse
it's not rocket science
 
@CatPlusPlus They are better than WASD.
 
Ahahahaha no
 
I'd rather aim with WASD than use an analog stick
 
6:11 PM
Debating about controllers vs keyboards is pointless. You guys suck.
 
No.
 
@melak47 yeah I know, but you don't have the same "finesse", same thing with the analog aspect of the triggers... all I'm saying is that it's often an after thought unfortunately, because there's not much money to be made in PC games either
 
@CatPlusPlus What? You mean that you find having only 8 possible directions with no sensibility is better?
 
@EtiennedeMartel Yes.
 
Well, you guys are weird.
 
6:11 PM
@emartel there would be if everyone just dropped the stupid consoles :p
 
@Cicada why do you care so much about my statement on Nintendo?
 
I wonder how many console emulators JIT. Seems like the perfect fit for that technology.
 
@CatPlusPlus Do you think that OUYA console will be worth anything, then?
 
@EtiennedeMartel That's literally has never been a problem and mouse is far more superior for any aiming
 
@melak47 well, without consoles every kids would be on the pirate bay on the launch day and we'd be out of a job
 
6:12 PM
@ThePhD I have no idea what that is
 
@CatPlusPlus Then don't worry about it. :D
 
But it's still overspecialised, so no
 
@CatPlusPlus I'm not talking about mouse. Of course the mouse is better for aiming.
 
@CatPlusPlus I totally agree... shooters and RTS are meant for the PC
 
6:13 PM
@emartel I don't actually care. I just thought it was plain wrong.
 
I'm talking about using an analog stick vs WASD for movement.
 
I know. That's what the first part of my sentence is about
 
It's just what we need, another shitty console!
 
@Cicada ok, which important developers target mainly the Wii?
 
@kbok Great idea, terrible implementation.
 
6:13 PM
@emartel No idea. Nintendo?
 
@emartel Nintendo and their first parties.
That's it.
 
@EtiennedeMartel since WASD usually comes with a mouse, you can aim those 8 movement directions anywhere you like anyway
 
@Cicada exactly
 
Give me $8M and I'll live forever
 
@CatPlusPlus Microsoft was going to actually enable cross-platform play between XBox and PC. In fact, the project was finished and they were about to deploy. But they realized when they pit XBox players against Windows PC players, that - hand over fist - the PC players shit all over the XBox players in every genre of game. They realized this would punch console sales into the dirt.
 
6:14 PM
Fuck consoles seriously
 
@EtiennedeMartel Why? Android?
 
@melak47 I don't find it that intuitive.
 
@emartel Your point exactly?
 
@kbok For that price, the hardware isn't impressive.
 
Android isn't even all that good
 
6:14 PM
@EtiennedeMartel ? if "left" is not exactly the way you want to go, just turn until it is
 
@Cicada that Nintendo is the ONLY* developer who targets mostly the Wii (*major)
This argument is totally retarded
 
@emartel And clearly Nintendo is not a serious developer.
 
@CatPlusPlus Well, Metroid Prime was a console game, and it still rocks my socks to this day. I guess it's the software that's important, not the hardware it runs on, and both consoles and PCs had great games.
 
Ohwell. Canadians.
 
The hardware is not always impressive, but the games can be ultra-specialized for the console arch so perfs can get better. I'm not sure in this case though, I think it'll mainly get shitty 2d platformers
 
6:15 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Whatever. I will never support consoles in any capacity
 
Now, of course, if you're opposed to consoles for ideological reasons, then I guess we might as well end this debate right now because stapling jelly to a tree would be more useful.
 
Besides, everything released on a Console can just be released for Emulator like 4 years down the line.
 
the SNES was still the best console evar
 
@ThePhD 4 years? Really? really?
 
Screw emulators
 
6:16 PM
So I'm not really worried about missing any console gems: I'll get them later.
 
The best console was probably neo geo
 
@ThePhD that's exactly how 360 runs original Xbox games if I'm not mistaken
 
I don't even keep track of any console games
 
@Pubby never had the chance to play with one
 
The N64 was crap, hardware wise. I'm surprised Rare managed to do decent stuff considering that.
 
6:17 PM
@Cicada Well, that's just like a "That's when it'll be - for sure - supported by PCs" estimate.
 
@ThePhD s/PCs/emulators The PCs themselves can very well handle the games.
 
There's NES games that we only succeeded in emulating last year because of performance issues
 
@Cicada True. They were developed on PCs to start with, haha.
 
n64 had better hardware than PS1 though
 
@kbok Reference needed.
 
6:18 PM
@Pubby Not exactly.
 
@kbok I have no sympathy for someone who can't properly emulate an NES game. =l
 
Sure, it had a better CPU and GPU, but a terrible bus size, and the CPU could not directly access the RAM without going through the GPU.
 
@Cicada Don't have it. You've got to trust me. Or just dismiss my statement, I don't really mind anyway :)
 
@kbok Statement dismissed.
 
Also, the N64 had no sound chip.
And cartridges were a terrible idea.
 
6:19 PM
@ThePhD they did do that, a few games allow it. The PC players OWNED The XBox players though.
 
@MooingDuck Ah. I never knew it actually made it out the door. I thought they blew it up just before it made it out.
 
@EtiennedeMartel That worked at a copy protection system. Everyone was copying PS1 games.
 
Shadow Run is the only example I know of cross platform play between the PC and Xbox
 
Maybe they just blew it up for their own personal MS-Studio projects.
 
@emartel I heard there was another, but that's the only one I knew of as well
 
6:21 PM
Well, FPSs and RTSs, the two most common competitive game types, are designed with a keyboard and mouse in mind.
 
@ThePhD It's not as easy as you think to get everything right. As I said, some games were so hacky that it wasn't possible, for anyone, to correctly emulate them until recently
 
@MooingDuck possible, but since it wasn't a success I'm pretty sure that at least they never went past 2 :P
 
@kbok I seriously doubt that, we can emulate Wii games in HD fine. Even the Wii can't do that.
 
I think only fighting games are better played with a controller.
 
@kbok that's not due to performance
 
6:22 PM
@EtiennedeMartel fighting, sports, adventure... I think they all fit more with a controller in front of a tv
 
Racing games need analog control
 
@emartel I meant competitive ones.
But yeah, forgot about sports.
 
@kbok Not things like NES games. PS2, I can understand: I've looked through and even compiled some of that GSDX stuff; jesus christ, the hacks. THE HACKS. X_x
 
@EtiennedeMartel adventure is not competitive but fighting and sports are at events like MLG
 
@Pubby Ideally, they need a steering wheel, but analog sticks are an adequate substitute.
 
6:22 PM
unless they removed FIFA and crap like that
 
@EtiennedeMartel Could you imagine driving for real with an analog stick?
 
@ThePhD yes
 
@MooingDuck It is. Some games are so hacky you need emulation at electronic level to get the timings right.
 
@ThePhD I meant compared to a keyboard and mouse.
 
I've never used a steering wheel controller but they don't look superior
It's more of an authenticity thing
 
6:23 PM
@emartel Fighting is on longer part of MLG. And last MLG I looked at featured SC2, Halo Reach and COD:BO.
 
Ell
@EtiennedeMartel why are cartridges terrible?
 
@Ell Small space and high production costs compared to CDs.
 
@kbok dubious
 
The largest cartridge had 64 MB, IIRC.
 
Maybe I should do that. I don't know how to drive, so I'll rig my Contollers so I can start driving around everywhere using a Controller.
 
6:24 PM
@EtiennedeMartel well if not @MLG, there's still tons of events where you can play competitively
 
"Just like Need for Speed, no problem."
 
@emartel Indeed, there are specialized fighting game tournaments.
 
I wonder how many competitive games there are on the Wii? ... oh wait...
 
@EtiennedeMartel wikipedia confirms. Dr Mario had a 4MB cartrage
 
I'm at 2999 answers.
 
6:26 PM
In the end, cartridges made it more difficult for 3rd party developers. Hence why, amongst other things, they deserted the N64 for the PS, which was made from the ground up to be as easy as possible to develop for.
Nintendo never really recovered from that, hence why most of their games are 1st or 2nd parties now.
 
yet, Sony lost a huge part of the market because their tools were nowhere near those of Microsoft
 
They fucked themselves up for ideological instead of technical reasons.
@emartel Well, Microsoft has always had the devs in mind.
 
Well there's also marketing
 
They give free blowjobs to programmers.
 
I remember we had issues when @ Ubisoft where we'd plan a Wii game, and Nintendo would promote mostly only their own games
 
6:27 PM
I'm not sure what to do about the Wii-U's controller.
It seems.... massive. Unwieldy.
 
didn't touch it, but it's a letdown that it only stream content off the console
 
@ThePhD Still smaller than an iPad.
 
@ThePhD you could not buy it
 
as in, not like a tablet
 
Bleh. Nintendo's doing weird shit.
But everyone loves their games so much it still rapes in console sales.
 
6:29 PM
Their "weird shit" is giving them tons of money, though.
 
it "prints money"
 
I guess you guys all forgot that, as "hardcore" gamers, we are not part of Nintendo's core demographic.
 
when is Super Mario: Multiverse coming out?
 
and fanboys (or girl I guess I should say) like @Cicada will defend them no matter what :)
 
@melak47 I don't know, but if Miyamoto's behind it, it's gonna be great.
 
6:30 PM
@emartel I won't defend anything here. As I said before this is the fucking internets.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Where do they go from there, though?
 
@ThePhD More platforming?
 
I meant story-wise.
 
@emartel I used to be a Nintendo fanboy. Now I'm one of their harshest critics. I guess it's like cigarette withdrawal,.
 
They've put Mario in almost every situation he could possibly be in.
 
6:30 PM
@ThePhD There's story in Mario?
 
@EtiennedeMartel I almost made a bad pun there.
 
Roflmao.
 
@EtiennedeMartel hehe yeah I can see how this can happen... I'm critic towards every maker so it equalizes everything :D
 
Well, sort of I guess. I just keep wondering where Mario's adventures will take him. Usually it's a different locale for each major installment.
But he's already hit the Universe.
 
@ThePhD I don't think they care too much
 
6:31 PM
IIRC, there was a plot in SMG, but when they wanted to expand on that in SMG2, Miyamoto chimed in and said this would distrat the players. Result: SMG2 had little to no plot.
 
@emartel Btw. I don't even own a Nintendo console (nor any console). I never had any actually. I'm just seeing this from an external PoV. So fanboyism, not so much.
 
@ThePhD same thing with James Bond, maybe we shouldn't care and just enjoy the games / movies :)
 
@emartel Except James Bond is usually, a movie, so I kind've care that the plot that's supposed to entertain me for 80+ minutes is actually worth... y'know. Entertaining me.
 
@Cicada Fangirlism?
 
@EtiennedeMartel Is there a Fanpersonism? Like a politically correct way of saying Fanboy/girlism.
Fanhumanism?
 
6:33 PM
Fanism.
 
@Cicada The fuck am I supposed to know about random quote?
 
@DeadMG Misclicked the reply-to.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Too bad OtherM fucked Samus' appearance up so much I almost never want to deal with Samus ever again.
 
@ThePhD Well, I like that it fails, because it confirms the theory I had: that bad developers make bad games.
Team Ninja is staffed with idiots.
 
6:37 PM
In a single game, she became the biggest whiner and had the worst voice acting I could have ever possibly conceived this side of the Universe, which is hard to do when you're acclaimed for being the most badass female action/platform/adventure hero ever.
 
@EtiennedeMartel were you a fan of Super Metroid?
 
@emartel I liked it, but Metroid Prime is my favorite Metroid.
 
@EtiennedeMartel I played the shit out of Metroid Prime. Out of pride, I will not consult an FAQ for the last 1% of a missile expansion I am missing.
 
@EtiennedeMartel I guess I should play it a bit more, I didn't like the platforming too much... I only bought 2 games for the gamecube... Metroid Prime and Zelda
 
@emartel There isn't too much platforming, anyway. The core part of the game is the exploration.
 
6:41 PM
@EtiennedeMartel they really well incorporated the "environment scanning" in the game! Retro did a good job on this one
 
@emartel It added so much, actually.
It meant the story was actually optional.
If you didn't care about the plot, then you could just run through the whole thing, shooting stuff.
But if, like me, you're a lore freak, then you can scan the hell out of everything.
 
hehe yeah
I think I read all the books in the library in Alone in the Dark 1
took forever because of a "ghost" that would simply steer towards you as soon as you entered the room
but I miss 2d sidescrollers :(
my friends are working on Mercenary King, it should be cool, but it's still pretty different than games like Metroid / Castlevania
most big franchises all moved towards 3D
 
duuude I hate school so much
 
@ScottW awesome
@Crowz that's why I didn't go, but be cool, stay in school
 
I got a bunch of ideas for games lyring around, and none of those are in 2D.
Well, maybe one. But I really need to flesh that one out.
I guess it's weird, considering 3D games are much more difficult to make.
 
6:49 PM
freaking MSVC. "This class provides default static functions and methods for moving, copying, comparing, and hashing elements stored in a collection class object." But nowhere does it actually say what those functions are.
 
linky?
 
I read somewhere that the ATL containers use memcpy rather than operator=, but I can't find evidence
 
> This class derives its functions and methods from CElementTraitsBase, CDefaultHashTraits, and CDefaultCompareTraits.
 
also trying to figure out why in this test the ATLList is twice as fast as std::list
 
kinda implies it has no new members
 
6:52 PM
@EtiennedeMartel well, some things are easier to achieve in 3D, like fancy lighting, scaling, animation, etc... I guess that's why even most recent 2D games are just 3D games with a fixed camera and only "X,Z" movement
 
@DeadMG none of those have members either AFACT
oh wait I found it
 
Platformers are better in 2D, because it's much harder to do a shitty camera in 2D.
 
@MooingDuck It is probably pooled by default
Most games are better in 2d
 
@Pubby I was just about to say that. The CATLList has no allocator argument.
 
well, lets define "2D" as in "lack of perspective" or orthogonal view... Xcom is a great 2D 3D game
 
6:55 PM
Cat list?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes C ATL List.
 

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