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1:00 PM
@jalf Evolutionarily, it's just as important to kill your rivals as to help your mates. And "mates" happens to be limited to the set of people you're having sex with, incidentally… not all of society, usually.
 
sbi
@Potatoswatter In practice, and according to the definitions made up by those who came up with the idea of communism, there never was any communist country. They were/are all socialist, trying to develop into communism.
 
See, @Tony barges in, and BAM! conversation steers towards sex.
 
sbi
@Potatoswatter About what?
 
@sbi That social generosity a la socialism in humans evolved in our primate ancestors as a means to help one's mates.
 
@Potatoswatter I meant "mates" in the broader sense of "your friends/people around you"
 
1:03 PM
I would argue that this is true for a family unit, but a far cry from a principle of society.
 
@Potatoswatter ¬_¬ I don't think those words mean what I think you think they mean
 
Seriously, you don't have to study evolution much to see that this is quite simply a fact. Lots of animals have this instinct for helping their herd/family/children/group/whatever
 
@jalf Then no, animals don't behave that way. Animals help their mates, as in other animals they mate with.
 
@Potatoswatter Then you're wrong :)
 
Most bees don't even mate.
 
1:04 PM
That extends to the herd. Not to other herds. A human society is bigger than a herd.
@RMartinhoFernandes They are still involved in the reproductive process by supplying raw materials to the queen.
 
Theres's that tribe of little rodent'ey fellas where one member of the group takes up guard duty, standing soemwhere highly visible just to be able to provide advance warning for the rest of the group if they get attacked
 
Poor bees, can't have sex.
 
The need to mate is obviated for the majority, but they are still keeping help within the family.
 
rodent'ey fellas, lol
 
Plenty of animals exhibit behavior where they help others even if there's no direct benefit for themselves
And as I said, it happens not because they want to be nice, but because it is a better evolutionary strategy than not doing so
 
sbi
1:06 PM
@Potatoswatter According to a popular theory called "evolution", reciprocate altruism must have developed with our primate ancestors because we share it with our next relatives. It's common among chimps, bonobos, gorillas, and other apes.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I think this a conspiracy against me :(
 
sbi
@jalf Actually, many of those species do that.
 
@Potatoswatter No they don't
 
@jalf I don't think the study of evolution has much to impact on this. We can't really study the social dynamics of fossils, only speculate based on the groups on death Even then, we can't really determine much more then if they where pack animals or not; we can't determine if they helped each other out
 
1:06 PM
@sbi Yeah, but there's one of them which takes it to such extremes that it's wonderfully obvious what's going on
 
Xeo
For fun and giggles, I couldn't stop myself..
 
@jalf Bees don't keep help within the family?
 
@Xeo You know, I'm afraid of clicking that.
 
Xeo
It's just that palindrome sentence thingy
 
@thecoshman Evolution doesn't deal with fossils. It deals with behavior and traits of living species
 
1:07 PM
@Potatoswatter Drones don't! All they do is eat, fuck, and get killed.
 
palindromes
 
Xeo
Too bad Ideone doesn't offer Boost in C++0x mode
 
You know want to click [this](tvtropes.org)
 
Xeo
haha
 
@RMartinhoFernandes How is that not within the family? Fed within the hive, compete and mate once, with the queen of the same hive, then die.
 
1:08 PM
@thecoshman We can look at existing species to see whether they help each others. And we can use the theory of evolution to explain this behavior
 
sbi
@Potatoswatter "Animals" is too broad a term here. Are we talking fish or apes? Apes help each other, even if they aren't sex mates. Chimps have been observed expressing empathy, and trying to help, individuals of different species.
 
Is the C++ Programming Language any good? I'm thinking of learning from the author himself
 
@TonyTheLion fail.
 
@jalf it kind of does, we look at the evolution of ancient species through fossils. that is how we can see that the likes of crocodiles have not evolved for a long time, whilst humans have
 
@Potatoswatter What do you mean by "family"? If you go back far enough, everyone on this planet are related to everyone else
 
1:08 PM
ugh, fuck everything about markdown
AARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
 
The notion of "family" is a human invention
@thecoshman But evolution doesn't deal only with extinct species
 
sbi
@LewsTherin Definitive a good book. See here.
 
@LewsTherin I'm reading it
pretty damn good if you ask me
 
And incidentally, fossils can only tell us that crocodiles look the same as they did. Not that they haven't evolved
 
That's excellent then! I just got it. Thanks guys.
 
sbi
1:10 PM
@jalf Yeah, but all bees in a hive decent from the same queen/drone. They are siblings.
 
Well, it's all a philosophical dead end because we are trying to establish how humans behave by looking at other animals for explanations of various preconceived notions. It's begging the question.
 
@jalf true enough. Though I think it would be a bit dubious to say this creatures all share this characteristic thus they must have evolved from a common thing, else we would say us a squids share a common ancestor. and yes I know if we go back far enough we do find one, but you know what I mean
 
@Potatoswatter Helping a member of your group, even that individual is not close family, provides you and your close family with better protection against predators, and it means that one more individual is around to help you if you need it
 
@jalf of course not
 
@Potatoswatter Hardly.
 
1:10 PM
@sbi And they murder their fathers! The bitches.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Not that I knew of.
 
@jalf this I agree with, the social pack aspect is a common thing. there are examples all over the animal kingdom
 
@sbi Drones are murdered by workers once they are no longer needed.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes But those drones weren't their fathers!
 
Oh, right.
 
1:12 PM
Human societies are characteristically more heterogeneous and stratified than animals. Animals with pecking orders also tend to distribute things unequally.
 
They're their male siblings. Sometimes.
 
sbi
@jalf It's not only such direct and obvious help. Chimps live in quite loose groups, but will share food with individuals even if they had just entered a group for the very first time. Of course, they will expect favors back for doing so, but that's no different from our society.
 
@jalf well, this is what I meant, they haven't physical evolved much, for all we know they could have only recently decided to loose their fur, or even been really smart; both ridiculous ideas to prove a point a think we both agree on.
 
@sbi I know. I was trying to keep it simple because it's obvious that not everyone is aware that animals actually act like this
 
sbi
@Potatoswatter Human societies are first and foremost bigger. If you remove that, and return to what we've been before civilization kicked in, human societies were groups between 30-100 people — just as with many animals.
 
1:14 PM
There's a clear bias by choosing bees and beavers. Chickens and wolves kill the less fit members of their own clans. Capitalists often choose those animals as exemplars. Is that any better argument? The question is begged either way.
 
@Potatoswatter So? My point is that the theory of evolution says that in species such as ours (which are social and depend on the group), this kind of "charitable" behavior tends to arise naturally
simply because it is a good survival strategy
And then, when we look at human beings and find that apart from a few pathological cases, people do help each others, I think the evidence is pretty strong that we have evolved to exhibit this kind of behavior
 
@jalf Sorry, my connection is slow and my posts are all delayed severely. The last two were supposed to be in immediate succession.
 
sbi
@Potatoswatter Even apes do that. Chimps are incredibly violent. But in that, they are a mirror for us. Nothing of what they do humans haven't done. OTOH, bonobos, curing all stress by excessive sex, are incredibly calm and non-violent — and are also a mirror for us, although one showing a different facet of what we are.
 
@jalf It's not a few pathological cases. People divide their societal peers into "like" and "unlike". Once someone is "othered", they might as well not be human. This goes back to prehistory.
 
sbi
1:17 PM
@Potatoswatter This we share with other apes, too.
 
… and explains the worst cases of 19th-20th century imperialist and dictatorial brutality.
 
@Potatoswatter you seem to think that there's some fundamental difference there. There's not. Wolves, just like apes, follow the strategy that, through their evolution, has turned out to be succesful. Today's wolves are imbued with genes which are chosen for their ability to survive and spread
(which btw is a terrible way to put it because it implies some kind of conscious agency doing the "choosing")
 
@Potatoswatter this is a natural response to not wanting to be ostracised from a group. By staying part of a collective group mocking a common person, those who do the mocking are all safe from being mocked them selves.
 
My point is that I see no reason why this mechanism should not apply to us. Surely our genes have been subject to the same mechanism, and so it follows that our genes are the ones that have proven most likely to survive and propagate for our species
 
@jalf Clearly the CIA!
 
1:19 PM
and for a species such as ours, the theory of evolution suggests that the best survival strategy is to help (within reason) our peers. Of course, the actual strategy is far more complex than that, and it also involves sometimes punishing or abandoning them
 
@thecoshman It often happens between groups with little prior contact. It's natural to fear and despise people who are not like you. Nothing to do with desire to fit in with your peers, it's purely the desire to wipe out everything else.
 
and that is no different from wolves, btw. Their strategy isn't just "kill the weak" either. There's a reason they form packs in the first place. It's not because they're psychopath murderers
 
sbi
@jalf Humans are different in that our genes were picked for flexibility (more so even than our closest relatives, which already are very flexible). This has allowed humans to live in an incredible spectrum of different societies.
 
@sbi yeah, but flexibility is a survival strategy like any other. In some cases, it has led to different behaviors being favored, but it doesn't mean the theory of evolution doesn't apply
 
if we fancy a slight change of subject. Why do you think genders evolved in life. A can see the clear advantage to sexual reproduction, it allows for a much healthier 'gene pool', but I struggle with, is why life seems to have clung to this notion that males and females is beneficial, clearly it has as most life forms have sexes
(afk)
 
1:22 PM
Because of sex, obviously.
 
@thecoshman what do you mean? Sexual reproduction relies on having genders, so if you can see the benefit of the former, then it should follow logically why we have the latter
 
@thecoshman Well, asexual reproduction has the clear disadvantage of not mixing genes, and 3+ sexes is unnecessarily complicated.
So, 2 sexes it is :)
 
or do you mean why we have precisely these two genders with precisely these biological differences?
 
sbi
@jalf Actually, wolves, too, can live in different societies. Some live as "married couples with kids", some in packs with all supporting one reproducing couple and their offspring. It depends on the environmental circumstances. Wolves can even switch between those two (e.g., for summer/winter).
 
yup. Which just goes to show how much capitalists know of evolution ;)
 
1:24 PM
Human societies consist of thousands to billions of individuals, with the ability to communicate and plan precisely. There is no parallel among any other species.
 
sbi
@jalf I don't think our incredible level of flexibility is "a survival strategy like any other". It is unrivaled, and it is successful as no other.
 
catastrophes can undo survival of the fittest by creating a temporary shift in the environment, possibly resulting in a lesser fit form surviving.
 
Basically a whole new dimension to evolution itself
 
Imagine if the brightest scientists all gathered for a convention, and it got destroyed by a tsunami.
 
Sexual reproduction does not need to have a male and a female. The alternative is that all creatures where both male and female, sort of like plants. They can still have sex and thus still mix genes. Advanced life forms could still enjoy the social aspect of sex. So why is it that life has settled into this notion of males and females that can only do half of the reproduction process
 
1:26 PM
@sbi I meant that it has to follow the same rules as all the others. It turned out to work a lot better, sure, but it's playing the same game, with the same rules
it just does a better job of it
and even then, we don't know how much of it was down to luck. :)
 
@thecoshman Not all plants are hermaphrodites.
 
sbi
@thecoshman There's some animals that can do either. I think some fish, salamander or whatever living in different lakes was found to reproduce either with or without sex, depending on the lakes they are in. Studies have shown that this correlates with the existence or non-existence of certain germs in those lakes. With more aggressive germs, they switch to sex. It's believed they do this in order to more effectively mingle genes.
 
@thecoshman there are animals that can do both too
but one explanation could be down to economy. It's simpler/cheaper/faster/easier to build someone who can do half of the reproduction, than one who can do it all
 
… and our flexibility in behavior and mobility above other species came about due to our proportionally smaller intestines, which resulted from the practice of cooking food. At least, that's what I read.
 
@thecoshman it has better genetic diversity
 
1:28 PM
@jalf Nah, reproductive organs are fairly cheap.
 
@Potatoswatter but not as cheap as not having them. And there's a fair bit of plumbing inside to make them work
 
sbi
@thecoshman There are plants that have both sexes in the same individual and those where individuals have only one sex. (Ever had a ginkgo of the wrong sex in front of your house?) Likewise, there's animals where individuals are true hermaphrodites. (Many snails are known for that.)
 
@jalf this is the most annoying reasons why we have males and females. It is reverse logic, we evolved to have males and females and then at a later point found a social purpose for it
 
@thecoshman How do you mean?
 
sbi
@jalf Of course, evolution is the same game for all species. I didn't know we had to establish that here.
 
1:29 PM
@thecoshman The problem with hermaphrodites is that they lose some fraction of the gene mixing that sex provides. Which is why some species such as certain frogs will adjust their sex or become hermaphroditic due to population stress, when producing more individuals becomes more important than fitter ones.
 
Plants usually work around the problems of being hermaphrodites by using sex-by-proxy.
 
@thecoshman maybe we'll evolve to be hermaphrodites, once the population of people who don't like their gender gets large enough.
 
@Potatoswatter false. you are thinking that hermaphrodites are a-sexual, or self fertilising.
 
hi @Alll
 
sbi
@Potatoswatter There's more factors (like biped locomotion, freeing our hands), and nobody knows how important a role each of them plays.
 
1:31 PM
@thecoshman Um, most are, yes.
 
@Potatoswatter but they don't have to be, and not all are
 
@jalf we did not evolve to have male and female because it fits out society better, we formed out social around the fact we have males and females
 
@sbi but that just means we fall more.
 
@jalf In the absence of other specification, I'll go with the most common case.
 
anybody who can help me in asp.net MVc3 work...a Resume Parser application...where the user can browse his Resume/CV and after clicking Parse the respective fields should get filled in the View
 
1:32 PM
of course it does make us look imposing to animals that don't.
 
@Potatoswatter The most common case is plants.
 
sbi
@Potatoswatter I think this is wrong. Especially so, if you include all the other costs connected with mating rituals (deers, anyone) in a divided society.
 
@Potatoswatter but to explain the phenomenon you have to cover both cases
 
please help if anyone have any tutorial or material or link in this regard.
 

C#

General discussions about the c# language, Squirrels | gist.gi...
 
1:32 PM
the question was why so many species settled on these two genders
 
You'll have better luck there.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Most plants are not asexual or hermaphroditic. Today's most successful plant family are flowering plants with one sex per individual.
 
@SamMKhan See, that's sad. If resumes are parsable, then no one will ever read them.
 
Xeo
0
Q: How do I split a user-defined sentence into words in C++ using substr and find?

Candace ParkerI used this function but it is wrong. for (int i=0; i<sen.length(); i++) { if (sen.find (' ') != string::npos) { string new = sen.substr(0,i); } cout << "Substrings:" << new << endl; } Thank you! Any kind of help is appreciated!

Wow, so much wrong in this function...
 
and in order to answer that, we'd need to explain why every form of hermaphrodism (is that a word?) has disadvantages
 
1:33 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes Not really. It's pretty dead there.
 
sbi
@Potatoswatter I think the most common case with hermaphrodites is that they have both sexes, but need to exchange sperm to procreate. If they don't it's usually pathogenesis.
 
@Xaade ...i mean the fields on my view should get filled from a browsed document.
 
The thing is, from my understanding, life started out with a-sexual self cloning reproduction, then at a later date evolved to have sexual reproduction. Presumable at first, sexual reproduction was as hermaphrodites. So how come species ended up with genders?
 
@Potatoswatter More genetic diversity.... = Overcome more adversity
 
I don't see the evolutionary advantages towards splitting into males and females
 
1:35 PM
@sbi Parthenogenesis is completely different.
 
but my money is on the economy argument. Quite simply, it's easier to evolve into the situation where two genders depend on each others to reproduce, and where each only has the complexity/functionality they need for that
 
sbi
@Potatoswatter Eh? That's wrong. Most flowers have both sexes.
 
People can't read.
 
it's the simplest possible approach
 
@Potatoswatter Most plants have both female and male flowers or hemaphroditic flowers.
 
1:35 PM
making individuals who can act in both roles is more complex, and won't evolve as easily. So if the other solution is "good enough", then that's what we'll settle on
 
@Xaade have u got wat im trying to explain..
may im not able to explain it too well
 
with exceptions here and there for situations where alternatives carry greater advantages
 
user406009
If I remember correctly from bio class, one of the major reasons for two genders is so that evolution can work better.
 
@SamMKhan Go post a question. We can't help you, and the C# room is usually dead.
 
@jalf surely the simplest approach is to be able to reproduce with any one from your species, not just half of it. (assuming a roughly 50:50 male:femail ratio)
 
1:36 PM
@thecoshman that makes every individual bigger, more complex and more "expensive" to evolve though
 
@jalf surely males and females evolved after sexual reproduction how is it advantages
 
@Xaade thanks for the suggestion..but i dont think i have asked anything too weired for a rude reply like thar
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Well, my connection is too slow to chat and research at the same time, but that actually sounds right so I'll take your word for it.
 
that*
 
sbi
@thecoshman Very good question. Given that even bacterias are able to exchange genes (asexually), why "invent" sexes in the first place?
 
1:37 PM
@thecoshman What do you mean "after"? They obviously evolved together, nothing else would work
 
@EthanSteinberg that is why we have sexual reproduction
 
oh, I see what you mean; why did the two genders diverge so much, when they must have started out from the same common ground?
 
@jalf you need sexual reproduction to have males and females, you do not need males and females for sexual reproduction
 
@jalf making individuals who can act in both roles leads to more Incest
 
Anyway, the benefit of sexual reproduction… spreading diversity… is only proportional to the fraction of fertilizations that are between different individuals. That is the cost of having hermaphrodites.
 
1:38 PM
@Xaade how?
 
I think my argument still holds though. Reducing costs is a useful evolutionary strategy as well. You start out with something complex, and then remove the bits you don't need.
 
@thecoshman Two brothers can mate.
With different sexes, a male you can only mate with a sister, not with a brother.
 
@SamMKhan It's not rude. It's best fit answer. I gave you the answer that would most likely result in you finding help. If you find that rude, then I can't bother with pulling down your sleeves.
 
Why do you think we have an appendix, or a tailbone? Our tails are long gone. We used to have one, but it got removed basically as a cost-saving measure
 
That should reduce it.
 
1:39 PM
Which, as I said in the first place, is why some animals favor hermaphrodites only under conditions where diversity is less important than quickly boosting the population.
 
that would imply that species without males and females are doomed to inbreeding them selves to extinction
 
sbi
@Potatoswatter Which is what I'm saying. From what I know, hermaphrodites will usually still exchange sperm with other individuals, not with themselves, because the latter has no advantage over pathogenesis.
 
if something provides no benefit, but still requries resources to build/maintain, then evolution will favor trying to get rid of it
 
That is me being rude.
 
So you start out with these "omni"-gendered guys who still need to mate with others to reproduce
and then you specialize from there
 
1:40 PM
@Xaade dont u think so./....
 
If two individuals need to mate with each others anyway, and during the mating they only actually utilize half of their "equipment", then why not remove the other half?
 
@thecoshman Not doomed, just more likely. Like I said genders leads to more diversity simply because you have a greater chance that a family will only produce a single gender in offspring, or an unbalanced selection, forcing offspring to mate outside the family, resulting in more success.
 
@thecoshman There's a reason they're not as common.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes For species where mating with siblings is prevented, it's done so at the instinct level. You don't find siblings/children/parents sexually attractive when you grew up with them.
 
@sbi The difference is that some animals will change between sexes, hermaphodite being one option. This is distinct form hermaphrodites who choose to mate with others, as a behavior.
So one species might have hermaphrodites who prefer to clone themselves, yet sexual reproduction with two parents is the dominant mode.
 
sbi
1:43 PM
@Potatoswatter I don't understand what you're saying there. Yes, there's species (namely some fish and frog species) which can change sex. What about it?
 
Starfish are awesome.
 
@jalf I thought most animals that have two genders, have a primary gender, and switch only when the population is unbalanced. Most plants that have two genders, have separate parts that are different genders, and due to the way that plants germinate, it's more likely for pollination to occur with two separate plants (due to travel by wind or animal, etc.)
 
sbi
@Potatoswatter I have never heard of this.
 
@sbi I'm referring to the same fish and frogs that you are…
@RMartinhoFernandes That, I think we can all agree.
Also cuttlefish.
 
sbi
@Xaade No. I think some species switch gender as a normal part of their life cycle. Also, look at any flower on the next meadow you come across and observe that they all have two sexes in the same part of the plant.
 
1:45 PM
Before starfish asexual reproduction was understood, fishermen would kill them by chopping them up and tossing the pieces out to sea, because they predate on clams. Little they knew they were making things worse.
 
@sbi Then, why don't we end up with plants self pollinating all the time?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes LOL!
 
sbi
@Potatoswatter I am referring to frog and fish which are one sex at a time, though they can be different sexes at different times. You seem to refer to species that are both sexes at the same time.
 
@sbi If animals switch as part of their lifestyle, it still means that they have two separate genders for the purpose of reproducing during a single season. Which means that it fulfills forcing an animal to mate outside family.
 
@sbi Not on my father's kiwi vines!
 
sbi
1:46 PM
@Xaade Sometimes they do. But mostly they are built so that it is more likely that bees and other insects would lose the pollen from the last individual they visited.
 
Xeo
1
Q: How do I split a user-defined sentence into words in C++ using substr and find?

Candace ParkerI used this function but it is wrong. for (int i=0; i<sen.length(); i++) { if (sen.find (' ') != string::npos) { string new = sen.substr(0,i); } cout << "Substrings:" << new << endl; } Thank you! Any kind of help is appreciated!

Close voters recruiting!
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes I wouldn't exactly call kiwi vines "meadow flowers". But I'm just a furriner, so what do I know?
 
I have no idea what a meadow flower is.
 
Self-incompatibility (SI) is a general name for several genetic mechanisms in angiosperms, which prevent self-fertilization and thus encourage outcrossing. In plants with SI, when a pollen grain produced in a plant reaches a stigma of the same plant or another plant with a similar genotype, the process of pollen germination, pollen tube growth, ovule fertilization, and embryo development is halted at one of its stages, and consequently no seeds are produced. SI is one of the most important means to prevent selfing and promote the generation of new genotypes in plants, and it is considered a...
 
Oh, got it now.
 
1:48 PM
@sbi That's an interesting relationship. I wonder how plants evolved into having an entirely different animal become a part of their reproduction.
 
"selfing" lol
 
sbi
@Xaade This is called co-evolution. Look it up, Wikipedia is back online, after all.
 
@sbi We can have all the educated guesses we want, but I'd rather see it for myself with a time machine.
 
"an entirely different animal"? You make it sound like plants are animals. :P
 
Als
hmm
 
sbi
1:52 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes This has happened between animals, too. Some mussels and fish are very symbiotic. (And everybody knows anemones and clown fish.)
 
@sbi I don't :)
 
@sbi still doesn't explain mechanical dependence. I'm curious about the point where they became codependent, not the process of becoming more codependent.
 
sbi
Finding Nemo is a 2003 American comedy-drama animated film written and directed by Andrew Stanton and produced by Pixar. It tells the story of the overly protective clownfish Marlin (Albert Brooks) who, along with a regal tang called Dory (Ellen DeGeneres), searches for his abducted son Nemo (Alexander Gould). Along the way, Marlin learns to take risks and to let Nemo take care of himself. It is Pixar's first movie to be released in cinemas in the summer. The film received overwhelmingly positive reviews and won the Academy Award for Best Animated Feature. It was the 2nd highest-grossing...
 
Also, cows gorge themselves and grow so that I can eat them. Highly symbiotic.
 
also, I think I should point out that amphibians tend to swap, but only the once. It also seem that most, if not all, (female) lizards are able to self fertilize when situation demands it, producing a batch of clones. This has resulted in some species of lizards no longer having males.
 
sbi
1:53 PM
@Potatoswatter Symbiosis implies two-way benefits.
 
@Potatoswatter Totally agree. Cows taste very good.
@sbi They get fed by humans!
 
@Xaade Many animals use different food sources and exhibit varying behaviors. There's no single point when things changed, it happens in degrees.
 
Als
okay I am going to shoot a Q,,Why vptr cannot be a static? I know its implementation specific but would it be possible for an implementation to have such an implementation?
 
sbi
@Xaade As most interesting turning points in evolution (first fish crawling ashore, first bird raking off, first humanoid consciously employing fire), this is hidden in the mists of time.
 
@Potatoswatter I think strictly speaking, cultivating an animal so that you can kill it for food is not really symbiotic. Nor is it really parasitic.
 
1:55 PM
@sbi There are more cows now, than when before humans started eating/using them. Symbiosis is usually thought of in a more direct relationship. Like using cows for shade, and cleaning their feet.
 
@Als Uh, because every instance might have a different one?
 
Als
@DeadMG: Does every instance need a different vpr?
 
@Als Base* x = new Derived1; Base* y = new Derived2; How do you make that work if x and y have the same vptr?
 
of course it does!
 
sbi
@Als Explain how polymorphism would work without.
 
1:56 PM
@sbi it is freaky the way you have some of the most bizzare examples of co-evolution
 
@Potatoswatter There are points in time, there has to be a point when a eye that sensed light became something. Sure the resultant eye is a process, but there's some point when a useful part emerges.
 
btw, all this talk of evolution reminds me of something I've wondered
how did we evolve to like prepared/cooked food?
 
And I think a dependent relationship would be the most jarring development.
 
Als
@sbi, @RMartinhoFernandes, @DeadMG: Ah okay , got it
 
sbi
@thecoshman ??
 
1:57 PM
@jalf It has less nasties in it.
 
Als
damn me
 
You can't benefit until you benefit, which is my biggest problem with the theory of evolution.
 
@sbi some examples of co-evolution = HOW THE FUCKING THE HELL
 
Als
:(
 
@Xaade But you're asking when the proto-bee used flowers as a primary rather than secondary source of nutrition. That probably didn't happen just once as a permanent, singular change.
 
1:57 PM
Cooked food carries less pathogens and parasites, so individuals who like cooked food are more likely to survive.
 
sbi
@Xaade There's other things evolution is hard-pressed to explain, like mimicry. It's still a pretty sound theory, though.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes but how did it start, I mean. If you're just some random animal on the savannah, you don't often encounter roast meat, so when you did, why did you have the genes for thinking it's yummy?
 
There are inbetween stages where you don't benefit. And those stages have to add to the success of the population in order to be distributed.
 
sbi
@thecoshman I have no idea what you're talking about.
 
@Potatoswatter Obviously, they signed a deal!
 
1:58 PM
@jalf But we're not a random animal on the savannah.
 
Als
i feel gloomy i thought about that Q
 
our preference for it must have arisen before we began actually cooking
 
We have the ability to make fire, which has plenty of other immediate benefits
 
I think most dramatic changes in usefulness must be caused by a similar dramatic change in environment. A catastrophe.
 
@jalf Wait, isn't it only humans that actually cook food?
 
1:58 PM
first you have toolmaking, then you make fire, then you discover cooking
 
@DeadMG so you're saying our preference for cooked food only arose after we learned to make fire?
 
@jalf hunter gatherers -> settle down to farming -> no loner need every one working to produce food -> able to support people not producing food directly -> pixies -> ready meals
 
Evolutionary speaking, that seems unlikely, since we haven't had fire for very long
 
@jalf There was no cooked food before that, was there?
 
@jalf Yes, prepared food is easier to digest, even if you're capable of eating raw meat (and you still are, it just takes effort).
 
1:59 PM
I disagree
 
so that would only work if the "cooked food" thing is a learned trait, and not something genetic
 
yes, it's true that we haven't had fire for very long
 
@sbi co-eveolution, well evolution in fact, has produce some really extreme examples that just boggle the mind how they slowly evolved
 
but it's a very strong factor
 

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