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3:00 PM
then you start using pointers
and you screw everything up
 
Screw what up, exactly?
 
your "type safety"
 
If you're doing pointer arithmetic, then you're doing it wrong.
 
exactly
 
Using pointers does not equal to pointer arithmetic.
 
3:01 PM
my point is, write good code. doesn't matter if PHP has weak bulshit type or whatever, write good code.
 
Besides, you usually don't need pointers anyway.
Yeah, in theory practice is the same as theory, in practice they differ.
 
but you see, C++ allows it
 
Type system is there to help you write good code.
 
@hexa How does that make PHP any less bad?
 
and I don't dismiss the whole language just because it allows you to write buggy code
 
3:02 PM
Pointer-related crap is orthogonal to type safety.
 
We have all already agreed C++ sucks.
 
I dismiss the whole language because it doesn't offer anything to help you write not buggy code.
 
@CatPlusPlus It does: mysql_real_escape_string ;)
 
And mysql_real_escape_stringIMeanItThisTime
And someFunctionWeRandomlyChangedArgumentOrderIn.
Oh, did I mention the case insensitiveness?
Tomorrow proper first day at the job, finally some Python for me.
 
Bad function naming and argument ordering has been brought up often when bashing PHP but what other language related things do you not like about PHP?
 
3:09 PM
dynamic typing, type coercion, variable variables
 
Inconsistent grammar. foo()[0] is not a valid construct, while $foo[0]() is. Also downright stupid design decisions.
 
Python has dynamic typing
 
Also sigils.
 
btw foo()[0] works in the latest version
 
Woah.
Incredible.
It took them only 10 fucking years.
Slow clap.
 
3:10 PM
Meanwhile... other languages get real features.
 
@CatPlusPlus type safety is overvalued
 
Like that feature of buying more Microsoft code
 
Meanwhile, they deprecated dl() for some reason, and added more shit to php.ini.
 
(Granted, C++ took 13 fucking years to get this right >>)
 
The only language with a configuration file.
 
3:11 PM
@CatPlusPlus That thing that helps you write not buggy code is called unit tests
 
I wish C++ would have a configuration file
 
Oh, the error reporting mechanism is retarded, speaking of implementation goodies.
 
that way I could determine whether or not, for example, I'm in debug mode without having to go implementation-specific
 
@hexa That's not what feature means.
 
I see your point though
 
3:11 PM
@Raynos No, it's not.
 
PHP is pretty shit
 
@ÓlafurWaage Strong dynamic typing.
And let's not start on magic quotes, eh?
 
@CatPlusPlus aye
 
magic quotes is the devil, i agree
 
It's a perfect example of PHP design process.
Or rather the complete lack of it.
 
3:13 PM
Are there any good languages?
 
I loved when they gathered on IRC and decided that \ would make a good namespace separator.
 
@Raynos No.
 
@Raynos no
 
That's beside the point.
 
@Raynos Lisp is perfect, according to some.
 
3:14 PM
Scheme and assembly are pretty good
 
Binary is pretty perfect.
 
I like Python, despite its flaws. Also Haskell.
And Go.
And Tcl to some extent.
 
I find Python hard to read (dyslexic), hard to find out where functions end and hard for me to scan a python class to see it's structure.
 
Oh, and Factor is pretty nice, too.
 
I can appreciate haskell.
Why are the "good" languages not popular in industry?
 
3:16 PM
Who doesn't like Haskell?
Shoot him/her.
 
Because they aren't popular, once they become popular, they stop being good.
 
Because they're hard to master, usually. Like Haskell.
 
because they're slow, or too inconvenient to learn, or they're not object-orientated
 
I need to learn Haskell, I only hear about it but never got my hands dirty
 
Languages can't be slow.
 
3:17 PM
Actually I know lots of people that don't like Haskell. Usually, their dislike comes along with their inability to code in it.
 
Unless slow to type, then that'd be assembly.
Haskell has a wonderful type system.
 
@DeadMG really :( "not object-orientated" is a reason? God damn I hate the industry
 
C++ could use one like that.
With real inference, not some guessing here and there.
 
I'm sure haskell is not that much slower then C++
 
Languages do not have speeds.
 
3:19 PM
@Raynos: Why? Object-orientation is the predominant paradigm for a reason
 
I'm tired of reading cat's lines on the starred board over there, please stop ;)
 
Someone has to fill the board while @sbi is away.
4
 
:D
you guys..
 
:)
I'm bored, so I star Cat
 
It will all go away soon, when the 2+ starred messages float back up.
 
3:21 PM
It's so bright in here.
My awesomeness outshines the sun.
Khm.
 
Nah, you've just shined your poop so well.
 
I don't think I want to know what that means.
 
I like how mentioning Linus started a full two hours discussion that ended with PHP being the devil and the starred board having cat all over it
 
@hexa Welcome to Lounge<C++>.
 
Mentioning PHP gets me on edge.
 
3:23 PM
@CatPlusPlus PHP PHP PHP PHP PHP PHP PHP PHP PHP PHP PHP PHP PHP PHP PHP PHP.
 
I've wasted 6 years on that language, and I house a deep resentment for that.
 
What do you use now instead of it?
 
C++ and Python.
It's pretty clear.
And says so in his profile.
 
Yeah. I think I'll start leaving C++ once Go on Windows matures (and gets that damn C bridge working).
 
@DeadMG No. People are confusing OOP with good software engineering practices
 
3:25 PM
Or just screw it completely, and go full Python.
 
OO has very little to do with software engineering practices.
 
@CatPlusPlus You'll miss templates.
 
People are confusing singletons with OOP.
@MartinhoFernandes In Go or Python? :P
 
Insta-star
 
@CatPlusPlus why not use PHP for everything?
 
3:26 PM
I guess we all know that.
 
@Raynos: OOP plays a very large role in realizing those practices.
 
Bam.
Har har.
 
@DeadMG You don't need OOP though
 
Modularity of code, DRY, etc. can be done in any paradigm
 
3:27 PM
Was worth a try :(
 
Industry thinks you do. Well, at least the non-gamedev part of the industry.
 
no, you don't "need" OOP, but it sure as hell makes it an awful lot easier
 
Gamedev thinks abstraction is SLOW AND EVIL.
 
It only makes it easier if your mind is stuck in the OO paradigm
You actually have more power in the FP, or meta paradigm
 
not really
 
3:28 PM
But people simply do not think like that.
 
@Raynos See, OO is easier.
 
It's all about knowing and understanding paradigms
@MartinhoFernandes it's easier I guess I see your point
 
You don't need to be "stuck" in it.
 
It's not needed though
 
@MartinhoFernandes I don't know, maybe. I'm not as template-crazy as like @Xeo for instance.
 
3:29 PM
well if you think OO is the best tool for writing good code then your stuck in it
 
Those Go interfaces have a strange compelling draw to them.
 
@Raynos: Whoah, whoah- that's completely wrong
 
@CatPlusPlus Yeah, they seem cool.
Oh...
 
If I think OOP is the best, then I'm stuck in it?
 
I don't know if that sentence is English, but hey.
 
3:30 PM
Maybe I rationally evaluated the choices and decided that OOP was the best
 
You can do template-ish stuff with Go interfaces!
 
I'm pretty tired, I woke up at midnight.
 
@DeadMG "was the best for this particular task" is indeed a valid thing to say.
 
@CatPlusPlus I know, I was there.
 
OOP may be the best tool for many, many particular tasks
 
3:30 PM
SINGLETONS
 
Nice try.
 
Yeah.
 
strtok.
Perl.
 
C library is a different kind of abomination.
 
It worked!
 
3:32 PM
Oh, well, I guess we could make up a whole taxonomy for crap.
 
Now quick, someone say the C library is not that bad.
 
@DeadMG You believe OOP is the best tool for many, many particular tasks becuase you don't know how to use the other tools to their maximum effect
 
Saying "OOP works, it's not broken. I won't waste time learning other paradigms" isn't a bad thing though
@MartinhoFernandes is the C standard library bad?
 
@Raynos strtok. I rest my case.
 
3:32 PM
@Raynos: Yes, the C Standard library is very bad
 
Especially strings, I/O, and... oh, right, there isn't anything else.
 
@Raynos: How would you even begin to model something like a std::vector in a functional language?
 
Functional languages tend to prefer lists, usually.
 
Because of their nice, recursive representation.
 
3:34 PM
ass-slow
 
head : tail
Languages aren't slow, for the third time. Functional languages, especially pure, are way more parallelisable than imperative code.
 
And Haskell is lazy. Except when explicitly made strict.
 
linked lists, however, most definitely are ass-slow
 
I'm lazy, too.
They're not linked lists, they're recursive lists.
Really, GHC produces really fast code, AFAIK.
 
@DeadMG I dont do C++
what's std::vector
isn't it just an array?
 
3:36 PM
Dynamically-sized array.
 
Array in a nice, automatic package.
 
arrays are dynamic by default :D
 
@Raynos: So you're sitting here telling me that OOP isn't the best tool and I haven't properly looked into functional programming
 
Arrays suck. :P
 
but you haven't even checked out C++
 
3:37 PM
@Raynos Not in C++.
 
@DeadMG depends. Linked lists are great at removal. O(1)
 
Man I hate slow languages.
 
@DeadMG I'm saying do as I say, not do as I do.
@ÓlafurWaage I heard assembly is good this time of year
 
@Raynos: Removal tends to be less common
 
@DeadMG C++ is a beast of a language I'll avoid at all cost
 
3:38 PM
@ÓlafurWaage You're trying to get the @Cat really worked up, huh?
 
@Raynos I program only in microcode.
 
@DeadMG depends what your doing. Right tool for the right job.
 
Gentlemen. You talking about C++ in here! This is the War Room!
 
@MartinhoFernandes trying my darnedest
 
yes, of course
 
You trying for a gold badge?
 
all I'm saying is that how could you possibly imagine to know OOP without knowing C++?
 
Anyway the point still stands that OOP is not the best tool.
@DeadMG You forgot the </trollface>
 
@Raynos There is no such thing as the best tool.
2
OOP is a good tool.
 
Maybe he knows Smalltalk.
 
3:39 PM
there was no open trollface either, so why would there be a close trollface?
 
Smalltalk and Self. Those are the languages you need to know OOP
 
uh huh
so when you're talking about language popularity and stuff, then you're gonna base that on your knowledge of smalltalk and self?
 
I'm merely saying OOP is abused as a tool
 
if you're discussing why some languages are less popular than others, then you should start by actually knowing the more popular languages
 
3:40 PM
Programming languages are used for controlling the behavior of a machine (often a computer). Like natural languages, programming languages conform to rules for syntax and semantics. There are thousands of programming languages and new ones are created every year. Few languages ever become sufficiently popular that they are used by more than a few people, but professional programmers can easily use dozens of different languages during their career. __TOC__ General comparison The following table compares general and technical information for a selection of commonly used programming langu...
 
@DeadMG OOP is a concept.
It has nothing to with C++
 
> Programming languages are used for controlling the behavior of a machine
Wrong.
 
@Raynos: OOP has implementations, they differ, some implementations suck and some don't
 
C++ implements OOP
 
Programming languages are used to spark discussions on which is better.
2
 
3:41 PM
Smalltalk practically invented OOP.
 
Your telling me because I don't know the C++ OOP implementation I don't know OOP
 
Girls, Girls.... relax! It's just programming!
 
Screw this. I've had enough of trolls.
 
but you're discussing language popularity. If you want to claim to know a concept when discussing language popularity, then you have to know at least some of the most popular implementations
as it's implementations that make or break a language
 
My strong opinions are all about programming.
I don't give a shit about many things in so called real-world to make up for used quota.
 
3:44 PM
Just like programming languages, the real world sucks. All of them.
 
All of them?!
That's a lot of sucking.
 
I put that just in case some postulated crazy stupid physics theories prove to be correct.
 
I think the flame killed everyone.
 
What flame?
Are you hallucinating again?
 
I don't know. Maybe.
 
3:51 PM
22
Q: Comparing one's self to others during interviews...

Crazy EddieI'm often asked at some point during the interview process to compare myself to my peers. For example, one of my first after-graduation jobs asked me to compare myself to my classmates. A job I recently interviewed for asked me to compare myself to my coworkers. I always play this down quite a...

 
@CatPlusPlus PHP is just a hallucination btw, all of it is fake.
 
@ÓlafurWaage I wish.
 
> I have seen it get to my head from time to time, and I try to avoid it, but in all honesty I'm just better than most.
 
@CatPlusPlus Have you tried erGo?
 
@MartinhoFernandes Very humble, that one.
 
3:53 PM
> I'm a fucking God that has do dumb down everything thing they do for the little people! The only way I can drag the rest along is by saying everything 20 times in 5 different ways.
lol
 
@ÓlafurWaage Um, no.
 
Oh crap, SBI is here, @CatPlusPlus hide your starred msgs
3
 
Sometimes I feel like that. The "have to dumb down " and "say things in 5 different ways" part, not the God part.
 
and additionally my lucky roll in the gene game
omg
 
sbi
@ÓlafurWaage :)
 
3:54 PM
Hi @sbi.
 
he's a nazi programmer
 
sbi
@MartinhoFernandes Hi.
 
You know what's the problem with maintaining my own code? I don't get any TDWTF material, but the code is still somewhat sucky and I can't blame anyone else.
 
@sbi How's the sunburn? :P
 
@MartinhoFernandes have you tried doing it right the first time?
I find that solves most of my problems
 
3:58 PM
@Raynos You can't do that.
Four months old code is bound to suck.
 
I hate my own code.
 
sbi
@CatPlusPlus It troubles my sleep. I was carefully watching the kids to not to get sunburned, and forgot about me. Although the kids currently need to stay in the shade, too. It's not even all that hot here, but with the sun almost right above you, it seems to hit so much harder.
 
We have rain.
 
@sbi You're in the tropics?
 
Lots and lots of water.
 
sbi
4:00 PM
@MartinhoFernandes Canaries.
 
And it's a bit cold.
But hey, summer, eh?
 
I like rain and cold. I hate typical hot Summers. Wanna trade?
 
I like room temperature, not cold or heat.
About 22 degrees is purrfect.
 
I think your avatar is starting to take over your mind.
Which, from what I gathered, should not be difficult.
 
Yes, I'm easily manipulated by cat pictures.
 
4:03 PM
@MartinhoFernandes It only sucks if you havnt mastered your sector
But I know what you mean
I hate 1 month old code :\
"What was I thinking last week"
 
We need to start putting the code in fridges.
Maybe it'll keep it from rotting.
 
sbi
@MartinhoFernandes Exactly what I thought.
 
There is no benefit from taking over my mind, really. Just bit of programming and general lack of any useful skills.
 
I think the problem is that that lack of useful skills is probably counterbalanced by lots of useless skills.
 
Just programming.
And that's about it when it comes to my skills. :P
 
4:19 PM
You're pretty useless then? ;)
That probably comes in handy to not have to do some tasks.
"Hey you could cook!" "Are you sure you want to taste something I cooked?"
"Hey Piotr could do the dishes!" "No! Not Piotr, I want my dishes clean!"
 
sbi
@CatPlusPlus Too bad. See my comment to the guy's question.
 
guys, why are you flaming about php? :)
 
@KamilTomšík You're a bit late to the party.
@sbi To be honest, I found myself in similar situations throughout my school years.
 
I don't want to continue, I'm just curious about reasons of even doing it.
 
@KamilTomšík Read the transcript. It's all there.
 
4:33 PM
I already did.
 
In most of the classes I was in, the vast majority couldn't code jack.
Lots came to me for help.
But instead of being "dumbfounded not just by their ignorance, but by their unwillingness to do what it took to loose it." I tried to help them.
I don't think I was successful with many, but at least I tried to.
And I'm not the best of tutors.
 
sbi
@MartinhoFernandes As the guy? Yes, me too. As I said, in 75% of my jobs I gave C++ seminars. (And I worked in pure C++ shops.) That doesn't mean it's good to be arrogant. See my comment to the accepted answer.
@MartinhoFernandes Ah, yeah. That's what I meant.
 
I had some cases that I'm particularly proud of, where the person I tutored ended up with better grades than me.
That makes me really happy.
That's why I like teaching.
 
I wanna teach. I want to teach engineers to program, not CS people. In all college courses I know of, programming to engineers is always given wrong.
 
@sbi Plussed.
 
4:50 PM
I'd like to teach, but I'm terrible at explaining things. :(
 
Yeah, it's damn hard. You have to drop all assumptions about what is and what isn't clear.
Other people don't think like you do.
You learn to value teachers' efforts a lot more once you tried it.
 
Also you try to explain one thing, and it depends on two other things, and OMG I'm building an infinite tree.
 
sbi
@MartinhoFernandes Another thing about teaching: It shows the limits of your knowledge like nothing else.
 
@sbi that can lead to many awkward situations
 
Only if you're afraid to admit you don't know everything.
Your task as a teacher is not knowing everything, but getting others to know something.
As long as you have reasonable knowledge of what you're teaching, it's fine.
 
4:58 PM
I've ran into situations like that, i thought i knew the subject entirely but then the guys asked something and then I realized I did not know the subject as much as I thought
 
sbi
@hexa Not IME. When I started to teach C++ to students, I was afraid to have students that knew as much about C++ as I did. (I once was such a student...) However, my fear turned out to be unnecessary. The difference between my students and me was so huge, when I didn't know something, I just plain said it (accompanied with an attempt to find out), and it never did any harm.
But then, I only taught what I know really good, and refused all other offers.
 

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