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2:00 PM
@awoodland You give the salt to the browser?
Is that secure?
You are authenticating the browser. The browser is the enemy.
You cannot trust anything coming from it.
 
Xeo
@MartinhoFernandes *bowser is the enemy
 
it's unavoidable for client side hashing, but it can be a) per user and b) not relied upon
so you do both client side and server side ideally
which gets you the best of both worlds if you do it sensibly
clients know their password never got sent and can safely remember just one password, servers never see it and never store it
 
@awoodland And the worst of the password policy world as well: password space reduction.
 
@MartinhoFernandes Nothing is secure, everything is permitted - Desmond [Hacker's Creed]
 
that's just a hash function choice problem then
 
2:02 PM
@awoodland All hash functions reduce the password space.
If not they're encryption functions.
 
Seriously.... no one knows what I'm talking about. People.... stop coding and go play videogames.
 
lol
 
ironically, I just stopped playing a game to start coding
 
Hmm.... Maybe I should make a game that has a C++ programming minigame
 
I believe it was called Colobot.
 
2:05 PM
isn't that the hl2 sdk?
 
is static_cast the right cast for casting unsinged int to int?
 
@Nils - yes
 
@CatPlusPlus Yeah, but in this case it would be a game where most of the code is set, and you can only change one or two lines of code that changes entirely how something works..... like getting a turret to shoot another turret instead of yourself.
The rest of the game would be a platformer or something
 
@Xaade: It's called System Shock 2 ;p
 
ah Deus Ex Human revolution comes out soon :)
 
2:10 PM
BTW, hashing passwords in the client is a legit thing, see e.g. SRP. I've also seen a bit less sophisticated challenge-response implementations that didn't involve sending cleartext password to the server, and they worked quite well AFAIK.
Of course, it's not simple SHA1(password) and then send it.
 
well
as far as I know, Deus Ex 2 sucked donkey dong
and BioShock and BioShock 2 were quite pathetic
so I'm not too convinced about anyone's ability to build a decent FPS/RPG
 
heh yeah well the videos for DX Human Revolution look good.. doesn't say much about the game however
 
I have to admit, the trailers make it look quite sexy
and I've seen a couple of short gameplay videos which did show alternative route options, etc
 
Then again, sending password via SSL and then hashing it with PBKDF2 or something similar should be enough for most purposes.
 
ah and maybe new consoles come out at e3
 
2:14 PM
Ugh, I'm in a building which is like, 40% glass, and none of the windows open.
 
@CatPlusPlus is that even allowed by building regulations?
 
I'd be amazed if there are new consoles
 
And the cooling system doesn't work.
 
the previous generation is still hardly making back it's R&D costs
 
@awoodland Do I look like someone who knows building regulations? :P
It's been approved, obviously, so probably yes.
 
2:16 PM
my office has loads of "fake windows" because someone discovered part way through construction that there was too much glass!
 
The point is, it's bloody hot in here.
 
@DeadMG Nintendo will bring one.. and the current ones are outdated when it comes to hardware..
 
cheapest way is just to shove a PC in a fancy box like the original xbox I guess.
 
@Nils: But they still don't render badly
that's just the problem
 
TBH, I don't see a reason to buy a console.
 
2:18 PM
render badly?
 
if you compare the 360's Crysis 2 with the PC's Crysis 2, the 360 just isn't that bad.
the fact of the matter is that the fixed-platform optimizations are almost completely countering for their weaker hardware
 
yeah but harder optimized I guess.. and compared to the first one?
 
and the PC is insanely wasteful of it's massively beefier hardware
 
yes
Well a new Nintendo would be cool, cos I can't look at the Wii graphics anymore since everything else comes in HD
 
@DeadMG svchost consuming 20% CPU.... Game consuming 40%
wha?
 
2:28 PM
how can your svchost be consuming 20% CPU?
unless you have a rather dodgy service
 
Humm one thing I wounder about is how scientific software (for example for computational fluid mechanics) is validated, besides comparing the results with actual experimental results
Proofing and ensuring that the theoretical models behind them are correct is one thing. But where the heck does the developer ensure that his code is actually correct..
 
@Nils I think simple test-cases are used too
 
@Nils: You can prove that software models a certain equation, mathematically
that is, you can mathematically prove the correctness of software
 
Humm and how do you ensure that a large long running simulations generate correct data?
@DeadMG That's kind a holy grail of CS, isn't it?
 
not really
it's an expensive, slow process for all but relatively trivial programs
much easier to do for functional-style programs than OO programs, though
 
2:33 PM
@Nils Somehow the peeps that work on the climate modeling software are pretty sure they predict global warming.
 
yes but that's not what is done for.. let's say a large C++ framework?
 
the equations that they model, and the data sets, might be large and complex
but the programs themselves are little more than run-this-equation
 
@Xaade yes they are :) However I'm wondering about simulation verification.. as far as I heard when it comes to CFD actual experiments are still used to verify results..
 
once you prove that function Y models equation Z, you're pretty much done
 
@DeadMG And what if equation Z is not proved true?
 
2:34 PM
however, once the programs reach a certain size, then you have to resort to normal software development processes- testing, etc
@Martinho: That's not the problem of the programmer
 
@Nils Testing the results.... when the test has far more variables than the simulation. When we can't even find a control subject for the test.
When did science turn into anticipating results and finding a model to match, instead of the other way around.
 
it's up to Scienceâ„¢ to come up with and prove Equation Z
it's just the program's job to execute Equation Z, effectively
 
Tying it altogether. What I'm trying to say, is that in many cases, people just don't bother checking that their software model actually matches reality. All they bother proving is that the variables they incorporate exist in reality and that the input data was correctly collected.
 
Well there are the kind of bugs which only show up in a case which is maybe very unlikely to appear in a small test environment but in a large simulation after days of computing it may appears..
 
2:37 PM
Even hurricane path modeling relies more on past data than it does actually understanding conditions.
 
@Xaade - that's how laws of motion started though
 
To prove that function is correct (say, that it terminates) you need to prove Fermat's Last Theorem.
 
Check conditions. Input conditions. Find closest matching historical path. Alter path based on what we "think" the conditions' effects have.
 
wait, that can't be C#
Integer is the realm of Java
@Xaade: Except that systems such as hurricanes are so far beyond our understanding, that it's pretty much got to be that
 
@Xaade are you into that kind of stuff? I wonder how a hurricane is modeled, since you cannot model turbulence at that scale..
 
2:39 PM
@awoodland Yes, but eventually laws of motion were formalized through understanding reality.
 
@DeadMG There is was no arbitrarily sized integer in C#, so I made one up.
 
yes
 
@Xaade: That's only possible if the piece of reality in question is within reach of understanding, given our current level of development
 
books.google.com/books?id=HZsTw9SMx-0C That's still on the toRead list here..
 
@Xaade that formulation only happened through measuring the orbits of planets I thought
which is basically where we are with hurricanes today
 
2:40 PM
Climatology hasn't bothered going through that formalization process.... or rather it hasn't reached the stage where it can. My frustration is the arrogance of those involved that suggest that they do know for a fact what's going on.
 
oh, and thanks to relativity, the laws of motion aren't even particularly accurate
 
@awoodland Measuring the planets orbits simply helped people find out the laws were correct (if you mean relativity).
 
the whole point of relativity is that they're not correct at that scale
ahem
relativity doesn't exactly have a point
but you get what I mean
 
Science needs to just step down from it's high horse and return back to it's humility of the last century. Everything is a model, because we can't incorporate all variables.
 
anyway I don't think climatology is arrogant as a discipline, it's the media love of "omg we're doomed" that doesn't match the research
 
2:42 PM
@Xaade So you are arguing that Climatology is not an exact science such as.. engineering?
 
@Nils Engineering has far more of the variables defined. It's model is far more accurate.
I'm arguing that Climatology is in its infancy, and it needs to be treated that way.
 
science in it's infancy is still science, just less potent
climatology as it stands might not be great, but it's sure as hell the best we've got
 
The whole reason I'm off on this rant, is because of my experience dealing with a few of the semi-notable scientists who react to questioning their logic as if one committed blasphemy.
 
I'd rather listen to a scientist who doesn't have all the facts than, well, someone else
2
@Xaade: That's a failing of the personality of that/those specific scientist(s).
 
science > scientists
 
2:45 PM
I'd rather listen to a fool that admits they may not be right, than a genius who cannot conceive the possibility of being wrong.
 
Science: It works, bitches!
 
Besides.... fools are more fun to listen to.
 
@DeadMG Fukushima?
:D
 
@Nils The science did not break.
 
what about Fukushima?
 
2:47 PM
"Science: It works, bitches!"
 
yeah
 
Science is humble.... but when its representatives are not.... we need to find new representatives.
 
can go wrong.. but my computer works pretty well
 
I'm pretty sure that Science dictates that if you build a nuclear powerplant and then smack it with a gigantic earthquake, said powerplant might not work correctly
3
 
Not saying the science is flawed.... just saying its practitioners need replacing.
 
2:47 PM
power plants are just an engineering problem anyway
 
@DeadMG You forgot the tsunami.
 
Yeah well it's more an engineering fail
 
oh, and that
 
But weather prediction clearly failed in that case.
Have to get back to work, I cannot concentrate while being in a chat.
 
@MartinhoFernandes It probably would have survived if the tsunami wasn't an issue.
 
2:49 PM
tsunami != weather
 
yeah, a tsunami isn't weather, it's a consequence of an earthquake
and yes, it was a bloody stupid thing to do, but Japan doesn't have a whole lot of other options when it comes to power generation
 
@Nils You mean sismology, not climatology.
 
@Nils I read that there was some ethical issues regarding the pipes that carried the water to cool the reactor. That the pipes weren't sound, and it was covered up. Therefore it wasn't the earthquake or the tsunami, but yet again.... human arrogance.
 
just the profit motive at work
 
And both the earthquake and the tsunami were explained by science.
Science may work without care for anything, but it still works.
 
2:51 PM
Science != prediction
Science works whether the variables are known
Prediction fails when the variables aren't known
We use science to create models to foster the ability to predict.
Science fails when we are unable to interpret the variables.
As in quantum physics
 
Or in movies.
 
Movies have their own reality model
That works in reverse
 
In some movies, even their own private version of logic fails.
 
movies have whatever science they need to make themselves work
they're entertainment, nothing more, and nothing less
 
People are excited by X.
I want X to occur.
Now I need an explanation for X.
 
2:54 PM
People are excited by X.
I want X to occur.
I don't need an explanation for X.
 
Movies are science in reverse
@MartinhoFernandes No.... that's a BAD movie
Like..... Tom Cruise bad.
Iron man.... GOOD movie.
 
@Xaade But see, no explanations. I think most movie "explanations" only make things worse.
 
You bend reality, but you give explanations for why it worked in the bent reality.... you don't just have something happen and have no explanation....
The explanation doesn't have to be explicit
The car blew up because it's fuel tank caught fire....
Not.... the car blew up because a bullet hit the windshield.
 
I was thinking more of the "midi-chlorian" variety of explanation.
 
lol
 
2:58 PM
The girl went upstairs because there's a way to crawl onto the roof and jump off...
Not... the girl went upstairs because....
Well.... I'm talking more or less.... avoid Deus Ex Machina
 
or do as Deus Ex did and heap it on from all directions
 
Did they intend to create a pun?
Like Halo 1.... where all of the sudden there's a robot in a facility that becomes an enemy.... when the robot could have blown up the halo at any point.
No No.... I can't actually do it.... I'm programmed to wait for some alien species millions of years in the future to develop enough to travel to this point in space.
 
I completely understand your example
except for the fact that Halo kinda sucks balls and I never played it
 
@DeadMG Second statement not for clarity. More for.... wtf... WTF... WTF!!!!!!!!! !(&(&@#($&@#)($&)@#(&...
 
Hey! No expletives!
 
3:03 PM
fuck that shit
 
No no.... I'm not getting that anywhere near that.
 
lol
 
3:20 PM
Debating someone who believes every war since 1812 has been a war America provoked, and thus wasn't in defense of the nation.
 
uh
 
Apparently... if I throw a ball and accidently hit a gang member, I provoked the drive-by shooting.
 
First & Second World War?
Yugoslavian wars?
 
Well, the first WW was a treaty involvement... so I understand that.
 
WW1 was completely caused by the massive political instability of Europe
 
3:21 PM
But we were bombed at Pearl Harbor. Apparently we provoked the Japanese by blockading them from oil.
 
and had pretty much nothing to do with the United States
 
@Xaade And somehow provoked Hitler to invade Poland.
And someone to kill archduke Ferdinand.
 
No, I mean... he believes every war America involved itself in wasn't in defense.
But that's what you get when you refute the concept of evil.
He doesn't connect the fact that had Hitler not been stopped, America would have been fighting a war on its own land.
 
mm, I doubt that
 
I don't
It wasn't the allies that defeated Germany.
 
3:24 PM
Hitler still had problems in Russia to deal with, even if he had managed to defeat the British Empire
 
It was Hitler's insistence on invading Russian.
Hitler CAUSED problems in Russia
 
yeah- and the Russians massively turned the Eastern Front around
 
Had Hitler focused on Europe.... and not upset Russia, he may have succeeded.
 
even if Germany had managed to beat them, and finish off the UK, he would have been in a very battered state
the United States would have had the atomic bomb long before Germany would have gotten across the Atlantic
 
Subjective speculation....
 
3:26 PM
it's quite one thing for the US to invade France when Great Britain is a giant stepping stone, and quite another to invade the US across the sea
so what? you're just subjectively speculating too
 
I know
That's what I mean
Either of us COULD have been right
 
right
 
I'd put my money on the puppy though.
 
so why did you even start in the first place if you're not interested in subjective speculation
 
Well... the point is that I don't think it's fair to say that we provoked Japan, and fighting Germany wasn't in defense.
 
3:27 PM
I completely agree
the US had massive defence interests in maintaining positive relations with the Allies in Europe
 
If someone sets up an embargo, it's not an equivalent action for the other to kill sleeping soldiers.
 
not least to mention that our scientists did a large amount of groundwork and collaborated heavily on the Manhattan Project
 
@DeadMG You're from Germany?
 
no, England
 
What's next.... we cut off relations with China and they do a land invasion, and we just let it happen because it's our fault.
 
3:29 PM
haha, good luck with that China
Pacific Ocean is massive- three times the size of the Atlantic, if I recall correctly
and without the US and other Western civilizations to buy their goods, their industry would collapse
 
Start in Alaska
It happens in the Fallout universe.
 
Fighting in Alaska doesn't seem easy.
 
that's still an extremely long way from China
 
It wasn't easy.
 
unless you want to go through Russia first, and they don't tend to take kindly to that
 
3:31 PM
Unless Russia agrees
 
plus, the Alaskan climate is hardly friendly
 
Which, about now.... almost seems so
 
hah
Russia and China might be getting happy together, but that's an awful long way from permitting military operations to move through their borders to strike the United States
 
Russia seems to have a thing out for America.... one that involves acting like a schoolgirl and spreading rumors about STDs....
BTW, where is Putin.... I'm beginning to think that he must actually be Osama.
 
@DeadMG Unless they are doing it together.
 
3:33 PM
I don't believe that global conflict like that is genuinely possible in the modern era
the fact is that the world's economy is far more interlinked than it ever was, and I don't believe that it's economically feasible to start wars everywhere
 
@DeadMG Only because people haven't gotten pissed off enough....
The minute America is weak enough... lookout
 
when the electricity stops flowing, people will get pissed off with war plenty fast enough
 
And the food stops coming.
 
@DeadMG Unless they're promised that they won't have food or electricity unless they go to war.
 
nah, electricity is the real weakness
 
3:34 PM
@DeadMG If you do some research, you'll find quotes from people saying exactly the same kinds of things immediately before WWI (for one example).
 
everybody depends on electricity virtually all the time
 
You only need a few things to convince people to go to war with anyone.
 
@Jerry: Yep, I recall that
and the power is a far more localized infrastructure than food
 
World war is possible.
 
@Jerry: There's a big difference between now and then, like the whole information revolution
 
3:36 PM
WWI started when one insignificant country got pissed off at another insignificant country.
 
@DeadMG Power is much more difficult to generate yourself. Even in large cities, there's enough space for people to grow quite a bit of food if they need to.
 
@Jerry: Exactly why I said that it's a much more viable target
 
@JerryCoffin Unless the climate becomes unforgiving.
 
@Xaade: None of the countries involved were insignificant, because they all had military agreements forcing other nations to intervene on their behalf
and in addition, all of the European powers were practically begging to go to war with each other anyway
for example, France lost the Rhineland oil to Germany in a war a couple of decades beforehand, and they were just itching to get it back
the entire of Europe was a massive political powderkeg, and all anyone had to do was set it off
 
@Xaade Actually, most of the "climate change" is much more favorable toward growing. CO2 (airborne or otherwise) acts a fertilizer, and warmer climate means longer growing seasons. If you look at global maps of warning, you also see that there's a lot of warming at the poles, but relatively little change elsewhere, and in some areas even cooling.
 
3:39 PM
@JerryCoffin Yeah.... tell that to NASA.... That's what I tried to say earlier... that the average planet temperature is a little deceiving.
 
@DeadMG Right -- I definitely wasn't trying to disagree, just pointing out one of the reasons I'd agree.
 
So people are pretty convinced that it's not likely another WW will occur.
I hope you all are right.
 
@Jerry: Awesome
 
i made a named parameters library with name lookup at compile time
but gcc always yells " sorry, unimplemented: use of ‘type_pack_expansion’ in template" dammit :(
 
I'm just worried that people are capable of anything if they are in survival mode and the propaganda encourages it.
 
3:42 PM
yeah
that's the reason that another world war is highly unlikely- because nobody is in survival mode
 
At the rate of economic decline, things don't look good.
 
for example, after WW1, then in Germany the conditions were genuinely atrocious, and it's not at all unreasonable that they were very desperate to survive
@Xaade: That's just a recession- it's nowhere near enough to trigger war
 
@Xaade Yes -- of course, I personally think most people have things a bit backwards. I think a lot of the "mini-iceage" was anthropomorphic, and much of the "global warming" we're now seeing is really a matter of recovering from the global cooling we caused for a century (or so) by burning massive amounts of coal. There's no question that airborne sulphur does cause cooling.
 
more importantly, it's not localized
 
3:44 PM
i tried to workaround the "sorry, unimplemented" but I haven't succeeded yet
 
if I'm, let's pretend for a moment, Germany, and I've got a complete bitch of a recession going on here, but my neighbour France is very wealthy, then that might be an incentive
but in actuality, France and Germany are both in pretty equal conditions
what has Germany got to gain by invading France?
everybody has had a recession- there's nothing to be stolen, as it were
the tremendous cost of a war would massively outweigh any resource gains
 
@DeadMG Even a country that's in horrible shape economically has a lot you can plunder, as long as you don't care about causing all manner of problems in the process. The Vikings (for example) got pretty rich by plundering the Atlantic coast of Europe, despite the fact that most of the people they were plundering really were barely surviving.
 
@JerryCoffin The way I understand it. CO2 will hit a limit where it can no longer increase temperature. The remainder of the predicted increase is due to feedback effects. Where the science isn't settled is what the net result from the positive and negative feedbacks equal. Where the media and certain arrogant scientists get off is supposing that all the feedbacks end up in an exponential increase. However, I say in all of Earth's history, I can't find evidence of an exponential increase
of feedback effects that didn't plateau
 
@Jerry: Except that those people were basically defenceless
and the Vikings had massive free rein to do virtually whatever they wanted, and it took the natives years to push back
on the other hand, if Germany decides to invade France, there's no way they could achieve that kind of a victory
 
3:49 PM
@DeadMG The difference was that the Vikings were a socialized military movement. They existed by consuming resources that they shared because they had a single minded goal. This is definitely more efficient survival than ownership.
 
mostly because if Germany decides to invade France, then it'll suddenly find itself cut off from all of it's trading partners by the rest of the European Union
if not flat out flattened
 
@Xaade Even that's simplifying things quite a bit. For one thing, water vapor does about the same thing as CO2, but much more efficiently, so CO2 has little effect except in places (like the poles) where the air is extremely dry. Over the ocean, for example, where the air's more humid, it has virtually no effect at all.
 
If resources were scare enough, any country would fall back to a military movement.... which would be more efficient in consumption of resources than an ownership system. So why the capitalist neighbor is suffering because of unbalanced ownership, the invader won't have that problem.
 
@Xaade: That's not true at all- because somebody has to produce those resources
 
@JerryCoffin Which explains why the poles are warming, but not the oceans.
 
3:51 PM
what are you gonna do if you invade France, steal their resources, and now what? you've just got to move on and pillage somewhere else
 
@DeadMG If you pillage, you don't have to produce.
 
and that somewhere else is gonna go, well, actually, we think that if we intervene now before you pillage France, we can smack you around between us
 
@DeadMG That's exactly what conquering is.
 
but nobody ever stopped
that's the point
 
@Xaade Maybe, to at least some extent. At the same time, it is a lot more complex system that most people like to admit. Treating it as a simple "change this, and that's the only possible result" is unrealistic to put it mildly.
 
3:52 PM
if you're Hitler, you don't stop at conquering Austria, you roll on to Poland, France, Russia
and all those countries are going to realize that they're next and gang up against you
which is exactly what happened in both world wars
 
@DeadMG The problem is that you're thinking only one country is doing the pillaging.
I'm saying.... everyone goes into survival modes and you have strings of attacks everywhere.
 
if you're Country A, and you're not producing resources, and your neighbour is Country B and he's also not producing resources, who are you gonna pillage?
 
The only possible next WW.... is pure cataclysm.
 
out of all the countries in the world, some of them have to produce resources, else the pillagers are gonna die, because there's no producers left to pillage
just like predator/prey relationships in the wild
if predators over-hunt their prey- guess what happens? predator populations collapse too
 
Well... that's it isn't it.
 
3:54 PM
but producing is more efficient than pillaging
 
My point is that the next WW will result in the world consuming itself.... just like you described.
 
just like grass is way more energy efficient than eating grass
 
It's the ONLY possibility left.
 
no, I don't agree with that at all
 
Ok, give another scenario for world war.
 
3:56 PM
firstly, that necessitates a kind of stupid short-sightedness that doesn't tend to pervade thinking when we value rational thought
 
@DeadMG That depends on how much the producers do the defend themselves. If they aren't adequately defended, pillaging can be quite efficient.
 
My point is that you can't conceive it, because we're just not shot up enough to want to do it.
 
@Jerry: Sure, but only the first target is gonna make that mistake
after that, the second, third, fourth, and fifth targets are gonna turn around and kick the shit out of you
 
@DeadMG People value rational thought LESS when they are starving.
@DeadMG If that's true, explain Persia.
 
not familiar with Persia
 
3:57 PM
For every country you pillage, you get stronger.
 
Als
A discussion over something which is pretty much flawed in almost every compiler..
1
Q: C++: Indicating a function may throw

PaulHow do you indicate in your code when a C++ function is possible to throw something? I don't mean through documentation, but through syntax. For example I tried placing a throw(std::exception) at the end of the function declaration, but that gave me a warning saying that "C++ exception specifica...

 
The ONLY thing that stopped Germany was losing their relationship with Russia
Everything else was a slippery slope from there.
 
well, as I said, it was Target Five turning around and kicking the crap out of them
 
Had Russia remained allies with Germany, and Japan not attack Pearl Habor.... Germany Russia and Japan would have been far more stronger whenever they faced America.
 
@DeadMG Maybe -- but wars have shown that it often takes a lot more than one victim before the others learn. In WWII, the US didn't get (officially) involved until Germany had taken over a lot of countries, not just one. Even then, there were quite a few people who thought that we could accommodate them instead of fighting.
 
3:59 PM
@Jerry: That's true- but equally, the US economy depends on the other developed economies a whole lot more now
 
Russia + Germany + Japan England France China = Dead America
 

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