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6:00 PM
But that means that STL is a library that only became popular in the 2000s?
 
In the history of C++, 1999 is ages ago. The dominant compiler for Windows was Visual C++ 6, which pretty much just sucked (in hindsight)
 
It was used in the 90s
 
sbi
3 mins ago, by jalf
@JamesMcNellis you can't prove anything!
'course we can!
 
@sbi don't you start now! :)
 
it just wasn't nearly as bulletproof (or pleasant) as it is now
 
6:01 PM
@StackedCrooked We had a big discussion on that subject at the same time. We decided to use the STL, but it wasn't clear at the time it was the best solution -- retrospectively, it is.
 
sbi
@jalf When would you want me to?
@JamesMcNellis Not only in hindsight, actually.
 
@sbi when it doesn't undermine my ridiculous claims!
which could be a while, because I've got a lot of fragile ridiculous claims
 
sbi
@jalf Bad luck. I'm way to good in undermining things.
"Ich bin der Geist, der stets verneint."
 
I was using SunCC in '99, which did pretty well with STL, but I don't think that was universally the case.
 
@sbi I am not familiar enough with the history of C++ to say otherwise.
 
sbi
6:03 PM
@JamesMcNellis We were writing cross-platform code back then, porting between VC, CW, and GCC, and VC6 was a neverending nightmare.
It choked and stuttered almost the moment you fed it the template keyword...
 
@AProgrammer Another decision was to disable RTTI. The architect explained it to me as follows: "If you really need it, then you may as well implement it yourself.". :)
But it was a good place to work for.
 
I'm not sure I follow his logic
I've seen meaningful reasons to disable RTTI, but that one seems a bit fishy ;)
 
@jalf Neither did I. But his tone suggested that I should ask no further questions. So I didn't ...
 
:)
 
sbi
@jalf On Windows the common "reason" was that VC6 had RTTI disabled by default. "What more reason would you want?"
 
6:08 PM
@StackedCrooked The sort of tone that suggests I should ask no further questions tends to make me ask further questions... ;-)
 
@JamesMcNellis It would have been an entertaining spectacle.
 
sbi
 
@sbi I did and +1ed. :-) That is so frustrating.
 
sbi
@JamesMcNellis I have a well-earned aversion against gag orders.
 
@DavidRodríguezdribeas, the paper I was thinking about is citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/… and it is older than what I remembered.
@StackedCrooked That's a kind of thing which make a bad work place...
 
6:12 PM
@AProgrammer I would agree in principly. But in the end it turned out to be a good working place.
 
@StephenCanon SunCC problem is that they never evolved the STL when the compiler completed its implementation of the language.
@StackedCrooked There are no perfect places. There is always something to complain about. Ask @sbi...
 
sbi
@AProgrammer Woah! Waddaya mean with that one?
 
Ohai
 
@sbi, aren't you our resident grumpy old man?
 
Posting from my brothers new iPad
And yes, he is
 
sbi
6:19 PM
@AProgrammer There's a huge difference between being grumpy and being complaining non-stroppingly. I can be grumpy very well inwardly, without you ever noticing (except by looking at my face). Being a constant complainer is much more annoying to others than being grumpy.
@DeadMG Your brother's what??
 
@sbi s/you're/your ;)
 
sbi
@jalf ?? :)
 
@sbi I really have to learn to put smileys.
 
@jalf 'OOP vs FP' somehow reminds me of 'Edison vs Tesla'
 
sbi
@AProgrammer No smiley would have repaired the damage dne by calling me a complainer!
 
6:23 PM
@StackedCrooked um, is this a reply to anything specific? :)
 
@sbi, as if you needed that.
 
@jalf just a reply to your starred comment of 3h ago
 
@AProgrammer he takes grumpiness seriously It is an art form in the right hands :)
 
sbi
@AProgrammer Indeed. I don't need to take that - neither from you, nor from anyone else! :)
 
@StackedCrooked oh right. I'm not sure I get the Edison/Tesla thing though ;)
 
sbi
6:25 PM
@DeadMG Now, when @DeadMG's brother goes through his browser's history, he'll find this funny chat he won't remember being. Se he'll go and have a look at it, and he'll find all those freaks discussing sex, drugs, and C++. That will be the end of brotherly love. :(
 
Edison was a American and seems more pragmatic to me. Tesla was European and more academic. Well, never mind..
 
@sbi: never look at your browser history after lending a computer to someone else. It can only end poorly.
@StackedCrooked: Are you saying that FP is "european"
?
 
sbi
@StephenCanon No, you got that the wrong way. The right way is: Never len anyone your computer!
 
@sbi: that too.
 
@StackedCrooked Tesla invented the tesla coil though. Did Edison do anything half as cool? ;)
 
6:27 PM
Though actually, I'll happily lend my computer. They won't be able to boot it, but I'm sure it will make a nice doorstop.
 
I wouldn't lend my computer to anyone who'd use it as a doorstop
 
sbi
@jalf You mean, except for the phonograph, the light bulb...?
 
@jalf Grammophone record if I remember well. That's nice.
 
@sbi Tesla coils, man! Those are boring by comparison ;)
 
@jalf: the motion picture?
 
6:29 PM
they might be "nice", but do they go bzzz and shoot lightning in every direction? Huh?
 
@jalf if you turn try to turn a light switch not completely, but try to find the tipping point between light and dark, then you get a tesla-like effect
 
Another person touching my computer? I'll die first.
 
Poor-man's tesla
 
Can your light bulb do that? ;)
 
(SFW)
(and awesome)
 
6:31 PM
@jalf That's an old link man.
I used to make myself popular with it in 2007 :)
 
@StackedCrooked I know. But it proves my point that tesla coils are cooler than lightbulbs
 
@jalf From my experience, light bulbs only go 'bzzzzt poof'.
 
@jalf: I'm pretty sure that's a motion picture (or rather, its descendant) you linked to. Can your tesla coil do that?
 
@PiotrLegnica Yeah and if you try to eat them it's horrible.
 
sbi
@PiotrLegnica Wait until you have family. :) What I usually do is to set up an account for them. Annoys the hell out of them, but keeps me machine clean.
 
6:32 PM
@StackedCrooked I know, right? It's like they made them like that on purpose.
 
@PiotrLegnica I eat light-bulbs when I'm depressed. It definitely distracts me for a while.
 
@sbi: family can get their own computer. Except for kids. They can go outside.
 
@sbi You can make a desktop machine rather cheap these days. My PC is out of limits for anyone that is not me. I might let future me touch it, if I happen to obtain time travel thingy one day.
But I'd hesitate.
 
@everyone Do you guys have a second favorite language?
 
human language or computer language?
 
6:35 PM
Programming language.
 
C++.
 
sbi
@StackedCrooked English. (First is German.)
 
German. (First is English).
 
sbi
@StephenCanon Ah, I'm too slow.
 
@sbi: I prefer your interpretation.
 
6:36 PM
My first language is Dutch. I'm learning and liking Japanese atm.
 
but if we have to follow the rules: ARM assembly
 
sbi
@StephenCanon Oh c'mon, you only did this for the effect!
 
My native human language is definitely nowhere on my list of favourite things.
 
dunno, are there any specific criteria?
I have a soft spot for ML, but I'm not sure I'd want to use it for larger projects
 
@jalf: People use ML-derived languages for some big projects.
 
sbi
6:38 PM
@jalf Does "ML" stand for Marxism/Leninism? They had their own language, too...
 
no
 
I like JavaScript because of its first class functions.
 
sbi
@StephenCanon People use C-derived languages for many big projects.
 
@sbi I get it was your second language?
 
sbi
@DeadMG What do you mean, "no"? You can't come in here and throw a denying word at us as if it was a bone for a bunch of dogs!
 
6:39 PM
@sbi I think it stands for meta-language, actually.
Standard ML (SML) is a general-purpose, modular, functional programming language with compile-time type checking and type inference. It is popular among compiler writers and programming language researchers, as well as in the development of theorem provers. SML is a modern descendant of the ML programming language used in the Logic for Computable Functions (LCF) theorem-proving project. It is distinctive among widely used languages in that it has a formal specification, given as typing rules and operational semantics in The Definition of Standard ML (1990, revised and simplified as The D...
 
@StackedCrooked Ugh, weak dynamic typing is something PHP made me hate with passion.
 
sbi
3 mins ago, by sbi
@StackedCrooked English. (First is German.)
 
@PiotrLegnica Never bothered me as much. But my experience is minimal compared to C++.
 
@StackedCrooked: first class functions are great, but there are lots of nicer languages to use them in.
 
other than that, I'm not too sure really. Most languages suck, it's just a matter of which deficiencies you prefer
 
sbi
6:41 PM
@jalf So you're the fatalist around here?
 
:)
 
@jalf Clojure is interesting though.
 
I might say python, C# or maybe scheme depending on my mood
haven't got around to trying clojure yet
I guess its ties to java kind of put me off. I know it's unfair ;)
also a lame name
 
@jalf: assembly has no deficiencies. The only deficiencies are in the assembly programmer.
 
btw, how do you use STM in clojure?
since you mentioned it earlier
 
6:42 PM
@StackedCrooked I'd prefer Scala. From what I've seen the only interesting thing about CLojure is that it is a lisp on the JVM, and they made too many compromises for that.
 
@StephenCanon It doesn't have "properties" like C# does!
 
notabug
 
sbi
@StackedCrooked I have a natural tendency to shy away from languages where I don't even know how to pronounce their name.
 
@AProgrammer The functional programming aspect and concurrency features (transactional memory) are definitely cool also.
@sbi Once you know, you know :) It's pronounced the same as "closure".
Damn, my typing really sucks lately!
 
@StackedCrooked "transactional memory" had escaped me. It may be worth a second look then. FP -- well that isn't really a novelty.
 
6:45 PM
@StackedCrooked so they're ruining a perfectly good word by inserting random J's just to rub it in that it's related to Java?
 
sbi
@StackedCrooked Don't get me started about that "it's pronounced naturally, we just spell it funnily"-shit!
 
@sbi: +1
 
they could at least have called it CLoxure then, cos everyone knows x'es are cool
 
Except for X11.
 
j's just mean "we think Java is cool", which means you're wrong
 
6:46 PM
@AProgrammer Also the entire Java library is available. The integration is really neatly done. Check out my notes if you are interested: docs.google.com/View?id=df3sq6bv_115c5bgjwp3
 
and before anyone gets any funny ideas, I'd just like to point out the 'j' in my name is not in any way associated with Java
 
it's Java Alf!
 
@jalf We know better, Java port of Alf.
 
@jalf I shared the same sentiment. But, you must judge the language and the JVM separately.
 
I think I need some sleep.
 
6:47 PM
@StackedCrooked only if I want to be fair. And that's not a given ;)
 
@PiotrLegnica: very insightful.
 
@jalf Fair enough.
@PiotrLegnica I slept 2 hours last night. I don't care. My typing sucks however.
 
seriously though, I should probably check it out
 
@jalf Clojure?
 
@StackedCrooked I slept 0, and I think I left my brain somewhere.
 
6:49 PM
@StackedCrooked yeah
 
Can't remember where.
 
well, unless they port it to .NET. Then I'll try Clo#ure or whatever they end up calling it instead ;)
 
@PiotrLegnica You brain is still in your head. Otherwise you would be dead.
 
Clonure maybe?
 
@jalf Clomono
 
6:50 PM
@StackedCrooked That's possible, but do you know for sure? I mean, you can't look there.
 
I can't wait until they try to convince us that those names are also pronounced "just like closure"
 
Gnosure
 
@StackedCrooked: the GNU implementation of Clojure/.NET? I prefer "gnotsure".
 
@PiotrLegnica I learned in school.
 
@AProgrammer thanks
 
6:51 PM
@StephenCanon Excactly, but it was just a joke. Sorry to disappoint ;)
 
@StephenCanon That would be Monojure.
 
@StephenCanon how bout "GNU Balls" ?
(Forgive my obnoxiousness, it's a symptom of sleep deprivation.)
Where do you guys put your code if you're on a Windows machine?
 
uh
 
Files, usually.
 
On the C:\ drive or in your home dir?
 
6:53 PM
in a file?
I keep mine in a specific backup directory
 
I don't use windows, but I use ~/Development/Checkouts and ~/Development/Sandbox for code.
 
C:\dev\code\projects if you really want to be that specific. And each project in a Mercurial repo.
 
I'm currently using ~/svn/ on Mac, and C:\svn on Win
 
I use ~/Projects/
 
Fascinating, not?
 
6:56 PM
I can't not use Windows. I immediately get distracted by g++'s speed, or rather the complete lack of it.
 
Do you have a specific folder for unpacking tarballs when you need to build something from source?
 
@StackedCrooked ~/Desktop/
 
I use ~/orig for some reason.
 
I use \dev\projects
for code
 
C:\dev\code. I really don't see how any of this is useful. :P
 
6:57 PM
unpacking stuff just goes to the nearest random dir, usually
 
@PiotrLegnica I doubt myself in everything.
 
@StackedCrooked: I use ~/Packages/ for that, unless I'm planning to hack on it.
 
And I keep downloads in C:\dev\downloads, and apps in dev\apps, and you might see a pattern there.
 
Do you have a specific location for when you want to test a specific C++ feature?
 
Yup. C:\dev\code\sandbox.
 
6:59 PM
@PiotrLegnica dev\downloads? For development related downloads then? Interesting.
 
wow, I hit the rep cap
can't remember the last time that happened
 
How much is the rep cap?
 
200/day
 
200?? So few!
 
@StackedCrooked The dev is not really just development anymore, it's rather my own personal FHS.
 
7:00 PM
@PiotrLegnica It's like a user account then? :)
 
I don't use Explorer at all, so short directories for the win.
Well, not as file manager, that is.
 
@StackedCrooked Accepted bonus and bounties aren't counted.
 
@AProgrammer What happens to upvotes after you reached 200?
 
They go to Jon Skeet.
 
They don't increase your rep.
 
7:02 PM
@StackedCrooked They increase the post's upvote count, but you don't get rep.
 
@PiotrLegnica LOL
 
oh wow, @StackedCrooked jalf.dk/blog/2009/11/using-my-stm-library -- completely forgot I'd written that :)
 
@MartinhoFernandes How moronic.
 
for now, that's the best documentation you're going to get ;)
 
@jalf Thanks!
Btw, does anyone know why Herb Sutter still hasn't released the "Effective Concurrency" book?
 
7:06 PM
@StackedCrooked He's still writing it would be my guess.
 
@JamesMcNellis Ah, I hadn't thought of that. Lol.
Btw, what happened to Addison Wesley? It no longer exists...
 
@StackedCrooked Bought out/merged with/taken over by Pearson Higher Education.
 
@JerryCoffin Too bad, it was one of my favorite brands :(
 
@StackedCrooked Yes -- we can hope that Pearson maintains the same standards, but it's a bit early to tell (or even guess).
 
hello all volks
 
7:17 PM
hi
 
hello
 
sick sick sick sick sick
 
sbi
@JerryCoffin Is that something new? (Ten years ago, I was asked to evaluate the potential of Accelerated C++ being translated into German, and ISTR that the email address of the woman I communicated with was at Pearson.)
 
hi
 
@DeadMG after reading your "sick" words, i started reading them as "dick"
 
7:19 PM
@sbi I feel like mentioning that Koenig himself once appreciated my praise for his book :)
 
sbi
@JohannesSchaublitb I can't fail to notice that you have a dirty fantasy.
 
@sbi i never buy the german translation of english original books. it makes the bookshelf look much more porno with all the english originals in it and increases my english abilities
2
 
@sbi Dirty words/imagery are a great resource of mnemonics..
 
sbi
@JohannesSchaublitb I don't buy translations either anymore (except for the kids, not all of whom know English yet).
@StackedCrooked "appreated"?
 
@sbi So merciless..
 
sbi
7:21 PM
@StackedCrooked Sorry, but this was genuine cluelessness. I really simply didn't understand it.
Anyway, once we're comparing dick sizes... I'm thanked for my contribution in Effective C++, 3rd edition. :)
 
@sbi I'll go crawl in a corner now.
And sob.
 
and hug your clojure ;)
 
sbi
Nevertheless, that question about AW/Pearson was genuine, too. Anyone in the know?
 
my intestines hurt
 
@jalf Reminds me of my colleage who started his daily scrum meeting saying: "Yesterday I spent most of the day playing with my dongle.".
 
sbi
7:27 PM
@StackedCrooked "Sorry I'm late, but I had to calibrate my joystick first." :)
 
@sbi Well, I hope you washed your hands..
 
sbi
Now we're back to doing dirty jokes again. @Johannes, this place was so much cleaer before you came! :)
 
@sbi I hope that's not another dirty joke.
 
sbi
@StackedCrooked It's what a friend said when he came late for a birthday celebration. Got a nice round of laughter. (I never used a joystick.)
@MartinhoFernandes No, that is just an observation.
 
When it comes to bragging about our C++ knowledge we're all screwed once @JohannesSchaublitb enters the room.
 
7:30 PM
@sbi Addison-Wesley was purchased by Pearson PLC in 1988. (source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Addison-Wesley_Professional)
 
Sorry for the pings Joh, my typing sucks, and need to make corrections :)
My Tetris application has 27 threads. I may be overdoing it..
 
@StackedCrooked as long as it runs correctly :)
 
@jalf Correctness > Style
 
@sbi I'm honestly not sure -- as I implied, I'm not even sure exactly what happened from a business viewpoint. It could be that Addison Wesley was owned by Pearson for years, and the only recent change is the name.
 
@StackedCrooked Style + Correctness >= Correctness :P
 
7:35 PM
@jalf I'll try to release a new version this weekend. Then you can verify that I'm acutally not joking. :D
@MartinhoFernandes <==> Style >= 0
@MartinhoFernandes Are you sure about your last change? You are potentially nullifying style.
 
@StackedCrooked Style is optional. As long as it's not negative, it's fine.
 
Negative style? Like using hungarian notation everywhere?
 
sbi
@AProgrammer, @Jerry: Thanks!
 
@StackedCrooked Not to brag, but I think I do all right in a few areas...
@sbi Yeah, I just did a quick look and found something a bit more authoritative that Wikipedia: pearson.com/about-us/our-history
 
@JerryCoffin We should hold a contest.
 
7:41 PM
@StackedCrooked I doubt there's any way to judge one meaningfully.
What's the relative value of knowing about SFINAE vs. locales?
 
@JerryCoffin Well, then we'll do it meaninglessly. As long as its fun!
@JerryCoffin I know one thing: std::locale("") on Mac throws.
 
If you want a contest, I'd suggest Howard Hinnant as a judge...
 
@StackedCrooked Hmm...yet another reason to avoid those things.
 
@JerryCoffin Avoid locale? Or avoid Mac?
 
@AProgrammer He'd be good, but if you started getting in the standard library, Johannes and me put together aren't even into his league.
@StackedCrooked Macs.
 
7:45 PM
@JerryCoffin There is a reason I don't want him as a participant :)
 
@JerryCoffin Well, I opted for avoiding std::locale and use plain old C functions. Muahaha.
I justed needed a StringToLower function.
 
@StackedCrooked Try producing (for example) the equivalent of cout << 123456789; in C, and std::locale starts to look pretty reasonable.
 
@JerryCoffin Until it crashes on your Mac. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for using C++ over C. But one needs to be get by in life.
 
@StackedCrooked What's the problem with use_facet<ctype<char> > (loc).tolower(beg, end)?
 
@StackedCrooked Yup -- and expunging all Macs from the face of the earth would help a lot in that respect.
2
 
7:55 PM
@AProgrammer That code looks foreign to me. I guess I need to study up before replying.
 
cpx
I'm using Visual Studio 2005, C++ compiler v.10 to compile some examples in 'Templates Book' By David Vandevoorde, Nicolai M. Josuttis. As I've noticed some examples seem out of date or behaves differently not as the book states. Do I need to look up a different compiler to follow those examples?
 
@JerryCoffin Hey I like my fast Intel CPU.
 
@StackedCrooked Well, as long as you get rid of OS/X, there's probably nothing wrong with the CPU itself.
 
@cpx Maybe. There are areas where VC2005 doesn't follow the standard. I don't know if any of those from the book are problematic
 
@cpx Post an example and we'll let you know if it's the book's fault, or VS's.
 
7:57 PM
@JerryCoffin Over a period of 6 years I evolved from deep hatred to mild appreciation for OSX.
 
cpx
I've also disabled those language extensions in VS 2005 but still it doesn't seem to follow.
Here's an example,
#include <iostream>
using std::cout;
using std::endl;

// maximum of two values of any type
template <typename T>
inline T const& max (T const& a, T const& b)
{
	cout << "Template version for any two parameters." << endl;
    return a<b?b:a;
}

// maximum of three values of any type
template <typename T>
inline T const& max (T const& a, T const& b, T const& c)
{
	cout << "Template version for any three parameters" << endl;
    return max (max(a,b), c);  // uses the template version even for ints
 
sbi
@cpx Please, use the "fixed font" button for that!
 
3 hours ago, by jalf
My rule of thumb: if you have so much code it requires scrolling, it'd be a better fit on SO proper ;)
 
@cpx This is the fault of Visual Studio.
It doesn't compile templates properly.
 
@cpx ISTR that VC++ doesn't implement two phases lookup.
 
8:01 PM
@sbi Or use gist.
 
@AProgrammer Exactly.
 
@StackedCrooked Over a period of close to 20+ years (i.e. ever since the Mac came out) I've grown from initial enthusiasm for the idea, to mild dislike of the implementation, to utter disgust with both their stupid mistakes and idiotic decisions.
 
@MartinhoFernandes Ideone is usually better, it can actually compile and run the code.
 
@JerryCoffin Personal preferences differ greatly among individuals... I hope there is another OS that you can live with?
 
fucking hell,I'm srsly sick
 
8:08 PM
@StackedCrooked Oh, I can live with just about anything if I have to. I've put up with things much worse than anything you can find anymore (e.g., Control Data NOS).
At the same time, deciding that the only language that's really supported is Objective-C, and everything else is, at best, a second-class citizen is just downright boneheaded.
2
 
@JerryCoffin I have no problem using C++ on Apple.
OK, aside from std::locale("") lol
Damn, my argmentation is pretty weak now...
 
28 mins ago, by StackedCrooked
@JerryCoffin I know one thing: std::locale("") on Mac throws.
 
@MartinhoFernandes :(
Gonna buy pizza now.
 
@StackedCrooked I haven't used it in a year or so, but when I did I seem to recall running into some problems a bit more serious than that as well (though I'll admit I don't remember all the details...)
 
my intestines are ripping themselves apart
 
8:19 PM
@DeadMG I'm not sure how much we can do about it
 
@JerryCoffin Well, Apple has some nasty habits, like breaking backwards compatiblity.
 
apparently, my doctor can't do fuck all about it either
 
@StackedCrooked Microsoft has some nasty habits too, like never breaking backwards compatiibility. ;)
anyway, I'd better get some sleep
 
@jalf Yep
 
8:35 PM
@jalf Yes. The worst part is that in Vista/Win7, they broke compatibility for such lousy reasons. Well, at least the reasons they've stated are pretty lousy -- I'm not entirely sure they didn't break things on purpose so a new OS would require nearly everything else to be updated as well...
OTOH, what I've seen from Apple seems quite a bit worse -- not just breaking things without a good reason, but breaking them to enable something that was clearly worse than its predecessor.
 
8:47 PM
@Jerry: It's my understanding that a lot of apps didn't work on Vista because they were coded incorrectly
for example, a lot checked if they were running on Windows XP, not XP or late
r
 
@JerryCoffin I suspect the absurd security restrictions introduced in initial release of Vista was (partially) motivated by the fear of botnets taking over control.
In Vista if you resize a Window to make it smaller the uncovered desktop space is black for a fraction of a second. This means they've zeroed out the memory on the video card. That's pretty severe for a release build.
@DeadMG Also most applications just assumed admin rights.
 
that's still fault of developer
 
Xeo
9:07 PM
Any ideas why a project would take 10 times more RAM on my machine than on other machines with exactly the same hardware? We all use the same setup and configs and VS2010...
 
@Xeo VS2010, right? Because it can!
 
@Xeo On your machine the indexing has not completed yet?
 
Ugh, games that insist on creating borderless windows in windowed mode. Why bother having a windowed mode if you can't be bothered to create a proper window?
 
Xeo
@StackedCrooked Not even after ~ 20 starts?
 
@Xeo Btw, I tried VS2010 and found it to be immensely resource hungry. I switched to 2008 now..
 
Xeo
9:12 PM
@StackedCrooked VS2010 takes ~130kb on my machine
 
130kb?
kilobytes?
 
Xeo
*130mb
 
That's quite good.
 
@StackedCrooked no, blitting large chunks of memory is on the top 3 of things a GPU is good at
 
@Xeo Yeah, it's mostly disk usage in my case. When VS2010 is started my HD just won't stop rattling... It even keeps making noise for a while after closing VS2010.
 
9:14 PM
Zeroing memory costs virtually nothing there, and is definitely the sane thing to do
 
@jalf The blackness was caused by something different then? Perhaps something at the GDI (software) level.
 
Xeo
@StackedCrooked Ok, 2008 takes ~20mb xD
 
@PiotrLegnica So that you don't kill the system if a message box pops up in full screen mode.
 
@StackedCrooked hmm? What I'm saying is that blacking it out is only sensible to do because it's such a cheap operation on the GPU
the reason why it was visible at all is just some other part of their broken UI subsystem delaying the redraw I guess
 
9:18 PM
I think that's the thing that bugs me: the redraw should be instant, and there shouldn't be that kind of "placeholder until we've had time to draw the desktop" pauses at all
what is this, 1992?
 
@jalf The best documentation I found for creating Win32 menu's is dated 1992.
2
 
heh, that says a lot about Windows
 
@jalf And when .NET came out I expected it to replace WinAPI and COM. Right now I think that the Windows API will probably outlive .NET.
I have the Dutch version of "The C++ Programming Language" and I must say it's well done. The tone of writing, it really feels like reading Stroustrup.
 
@DeadMG I was thinking more of things like breaking essentially all OpenGL applications so they can do their "ice" (or whatever they call it) effect when they composite the desktop.
@jalf The flash of black isn't really from zeroing video memory either -- it's because they've disabled hardware acceleration for all GDI drawing.
IMO, they've basically turned things backwards. They've forgotten that the OS is there purely as a foundation for the applications, and tried to turn the OS into what matters, and in the process broken it as an environment for applications.
 
9:37 PM
@JerryCoffin: Well, if you don't do that, how will you get people to spend $x00 for a new OS?
The accounting department demands "features"!
 
@StephenCanon By making real improvements and adding features that accomplish something useful!
 
madness.
 
Xeo
@JerryCoffin Tell that some designers
 
Btw, does anyone know why windows uses backslashes as path separator? This is my nr #1 complaint about windows actually..
 
It uses both, actually.
 
9:41 PM
Legacy.
 
@Xeo I wish I could. It constantly amazes me how much time they spend on idiocy and nonsense, while ignoring (what look to me like) glaring problems. Copying "stuff" over when you set up a new computer, for example, is a massive pain.
 
Backslash was introduced because they wanted compatibility with some older system where slash was used in command line switches.
 
@StackedCrooked At one time (DOS 2.01 or so) there was an undocumented function so you could actually switch it so DOS (throughout) used a forward slash, but that didn't last long.
 
@JerryCoffin Ah the backslash is for backwards compatibility with IBM DOS? Then it means IBM were the morons?
 
@JerryCoffin: is there really still no good migration support in windows?
 
9:44 PM
@StackedCrooked No -- this was when PC DOS and MS DOS were both quite new, and "paths" were even newer (PC/MS-DOS 1.x didn't have paths).
 
@JerryCoffin I see.
 
@StephenCanon Not really -- they added some stuff in XP. For Vista and Win7 they worked on it, but at least the minimal attempt I made with it didn't seem very useful.
@PiotrLegnica What system was that? I was around at the time, and don't recall such a system.
 
That's unfortunate. I've been very happy with the OS X solution for that particular problem.
 
@StephenCanon Yes, OS/X handles that particular problem quite a bit better than Windows does. I think it's still open to improvement, but at least it is something to improve; what's there in Windows should probably just be thrown out and replaced completely.
 
@JerryCoffin ArsTechnica says "Well, the forward slash was already used by some MS-DOS 1.0 programs as a modifier argument (say, FORMAT A: /S to add system files after formatting) and it was just too much work to change it now."
Not sure whether that's apocryphal or what, but it's something.
 
9:54 PM
@StephenCanon Except it's just plain wrong -- like I said, in nearly the first versions of MS-DOS that supported paths, they had a function to change it to use / for the path separator and - for arguments, just like on Unix. This changed it for everything included in DOS itself (including format, to use your example).
 
@JerryCoffin: I assume "just too much work to change it now" probably means "just too much user resistance", then.
 
@StephenCanon I suppose that's possible -- I don't recall any such thing at the time, but it was much harder to get a global perspective at the time (long before the Internet enabled communication like we're using right now).
 
My memories of 1983 are rather vague, and involve mostly running around in the woods with my dog. I wasn't a big computer user at the age of 4.
 
@StephenCanon In 1983 I transitioned from college to a few years in the US Air Force...
 

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