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1:00 PM
actually, no
when it snowed like a bitch, I got home fine
 
@DeadMG wow, that's not my recollection of trains when it snowed, maybe it's less of a problem where you are
 
nah, I reckon we got kind of lucky with the timing and positioning
my route from university to home is a pair of major commuter routes, so they get high maintenance, but I travel at off-peak times so I don't have to deal with overcrowding most of the time
 
@DeadMG so your train tickets are not as ridiculously expensive as the onpeak ones?
 
@Tony yeah, same here. You just have to say the word "snow" to them, and for the rest of the week, it's a 50/50 chance your train will be cancelled or delayed
 
they are
very expensive
what's hilarious is first-class
 
1:03 PM
@jalf yep, I soooo know that feeling....
@DeadMG I don't know how they think they can charge that much for such an awful service
 
90 quid to get home normally, after railcard
I mean, before railcard
so 60 quid for me
but you can get a single for 27 quid
first class fom 300 quid
 
@DeadMG that is expensive, of course I don't know the distances you travel
 
a long way
it's 200 miles directly in the car, so more by the train routes
5 hours travel time
 
@DeadMG crickey
 
30 quid give or take each way after my railcard
 
1:05 PM
I travelled an hour to and fro london and I payed 11 pounds for a single
 
oh, that's nothing
 
I still think that's expensive however
 
it's an hour and a quarter to London, then an hour over the tube, and then three hours on the train from London to Weymouth
27 quid, 300 quid first class
I mean, if first class was like, a five quid premium or something, I might consider trying it
but 1100%?
 
@DeadMG true
and what do you get more for that price? not much I presume, besides a slightly better seat
 
yeah
 
1:08 PM
pffff outrageous!!!
 
I mean, the seats are normally kinda uncomfortable, so I wouldn't mind paying a little more for a more comfortable one
but x11?
 
Mr Coffin comes out of the grave.... :p
 
quick, get away before the vampire comes out
 
sorry couldn't resist :)
lulz
 
kek
 
1:12 PM
@DeadMG Key-Encrypting-Key?
 
no
it's Orcish for lol
 
never really played WoW
call me sad, I don't care
 
I did play at various points but stopped
 
@DeadMG oh ok
 
honestly, it's more sad to play the game
very, very repetitive
 
1:16 PM
@DeadMG thank god someone agrees with me :)
 
indeed
although you still suck
 
how to show a messagebox ??
 
oh wait
misread your post
ignore me
 
kek
@cyberrog what API?
 
win
 
1:18 PM
there's a function called MessageBox in the WinAPI
 
::MessageBox
 
by the way, I've been thinking
 
oh no
 
I wonder, in a large program, how many different types are dynamically allocated?
 
@DeadMG prob quite a few
 
1:20 PM
@Tony ::MessageBox("the text"); is it like this??
 
@DeadMG depends on the definition of "type"
 
what makes you wonder
@cyberrog ::MessageBox(L"the text");
 
@cyberrog: Go to msdn.com and look there
 
@cyberrog ::MessageBox( hwndParent, TEXT("content"),TEXT("title"), MB_OK);
 
@Tony: I've been thinking about allocation
 
1:20 PM
cause it takes LPCSTR
 
@ChrisBecke thanks.
 
like
 
@DeadMG I've never counted them. There are probably a few hundreds that I know of -- and my definition of large program is that they are part of it you don't even know they exist.
 
what if you statically analyzed a program, produced a list of all types that were dynamically allocated, and just created an object pool for each type?
instead of the current general-purpose allocators
 
For LPCTSTR use TEXT("")
for LPCWSTR use L""
for LPCSTR use ""
 
1:21 PM
@DeadMG so you never had to allocate again, but just get from the pool type thing?
 
yeah
 
@ChrisBecke oh ok, not too familiar with winapi
 
object pools are very efficient- way, way faster than the existing operator new implementations
 
@DeadMG for the purpose of perf or what?
 
yeah
 
1:22 PM
and memory fragmentation
 
@DeadMG And thus preventing the reuse of memory for another type? Not a good idea in a large program.
 
mm
 
allocating from object pools implies allocating similar sized objects.
 
you would have a fragmentation problem, I think
I hadn't considered that
you could have an object pool by size
 
@DeadMG did you unblock Chris?
 
1:23 PM
@ChrisBecke No -- we have pools able to handle different size.
 
no
like, all 4byte types
you might still run into fragmentation problems though
 
actually I was saying the pools could improve fragmentation issues
 
@DeadMG lol cause he mentioned fragmentation and then you mentioned it
 
being able to allocate similar sized objects would mitigate fragmentation
 
AProgrammer mentioned it
just not by that name
 
1:24 PM
@DeadMG couldn't you have pools with different size allocators?
 
We are using pool to group object with similar -- but not exactly the same -- life time. And also to ensure good spacial grouping.
 
yeah, you would increase the number of types sharing an allocator
but you wouldn't solve the underlying problem, which is that a given block of memory would only store a single type
I mean, group of types
 
@DeadMG What about: std::string s; getline( std::cin, s ); How much memory will that take?
 
so if you had a lot of differently-sized types
@David: IOstreams have a lot of implementation details I've never looked at, and I would have no idea
 
@DeadMG, there are general purpose allocators which are doing dynamically more or less what you are suggesting. But they also provide the possibility to releasing the memory so that it is usable for other sizes.
 
1:26 PM
Well, forgetting about the iostream side of it, the amount of memory required for the read string depends on how much your user is willing to type
 
yeah, I know that you would still need dynamic-size dynamic allocations
 
@DavidRodríguezdribeas that seems sensible...
 
@AProgrammer: not as efficient as I had in mind
 
most modern heap implementations actually use a concept of size buckets anyway.
 
I guess that, at compile-time, you could make an educated guess
like, you could make a four-byte allocator if they were done frequently, but not for the only 194-byte type
 
1:28 PM
@DeadMG That is interesting, because a bunch of really smart people have been working on general purpose allocators for a long time...
 
to prevent both fragmentation, and ensure that objects of similar sizes are allocated together.
 
yeah, but I have an advantage, because my idea involves static transformation of the whole program
something which is not currently in any language
it would require a much, much smarter compiler & linker, AND a whole new set of language rules
 
and likely metadata in dynamically loaded libraries, if dynamic libs would even be possible
 
sbi
35 mins ago, by Chris Becke
lol. sbi is DeadMGs secret nemesis. He has IBS.
@ChrisBecke I think you have that backwards.
 
1:30 PM
covers the low fragmentation heap windows implements and vs uses
 
anyway, I'm off for a short time
 
sbi
@DeadMG Well, he did give up bashing C++ out of ignorance, if that's what you're referring to.
 
@sbi: That was indeed what I am referring to
 
@DeadMG At the level of sophistication of current allocators, measurement is the only source of information about efficiency.
 
@AProgrammer: it's simple logic
they perform an operation at run-time, I would do it at compile-time
 
1:31 PM
(And you probably want to define it beforehand because there are several conflicting goals)
 
sbi
@DeadMG Well, you can unblock him then. At least I haven't seen it for weeks.
 
That is, they have probably considered, analyzed and implemented different approaches. As a matter of fact, I read an article (paper, so I cannot link) on custom allocators that concluded that in most situations, custom allocators were no faster than generic ones, with the greatest advantage of custom allocators being that they could exploit know usage patterns (as in not releasing memory but discarding full generations of objects in transactional operations...)
 
@sbi: just did
 
@DeadMG And so you can't take advantage of the changing run-time patterns? Not sure it is efficient :-)
 
@sbi I doubt that DeadMG has a bad case of sbi :P
 
1:32 PM
@AProgrammer: But the run-time can't analyze allocation patterns, they have to be explicitly known by the programmer
or maybe the compiler
 
sbi
@ChrisBecke Which is why I said that.
 
but the run-time can't guarantee anything, because I could change a variable and completely change all my allocation patterns
only the compiler or programmer can see that event coming
 
@DeadMG analyzing the flow of a program IIRC is an NP complete problem
 
actually, I'm pretty sure that in general, it's impossible
 
@DavidRodríguezdribeas Reachability is already not decidable... that ends the therorical discussion.
 
1:33 PM
but the quantity of information statically available is certainly large
 
So as a matter of fact, it is probably easier to analyze the real pattern at runtime (statistically) than at compile time
 
In practice heuristics work.
 
anyway, I really must go now
 
take care, and avoid dark chocolate
 
well, sbi is the secret nemesis on the basis that alucard is the name used by dracula when he wants to go incognito. Well, in bad anime anyway.
 
1:35 PM
@DeadMG: patterns of allocation change during the life of a program, you can't take advantage of that with statical analysis but you can with a dynamical one. And it is probably more profitable than what you loose with the finer statical analysis.
 
wow I just looked at this article about allocators and I'm not any wiser, probably just too difficult for me yet
 
Uhm... the fact that I have the article in paper does not mean that I cannot google for it:
@Tony, the discussion was more on custom allocators as in the link I posted than on STL allocators (interface to use the former in STL containers)
 
Als
Hey All
 
@DavidRodríguezdribeas that doesn't mean I will understand your paper, I think I prob need some more understanding of templates first, before getting into any type of allocator
@Als hey :)
 
@David, I have -- at home -- a survey of allocator techniques. It was a 40 pages or so paper. If you are interested, I'll post the reference. It was on citeseer.
 
Als
1:42 PM
@Tony: Hey Tony, back to boring c++ dabble i notice ;)
 
@Tony not really, the article I linked is on allocation patterns
 
@Tony Allocators for the discussion isn't tied to templates.
 
What is the 10 in the room title?
 
@AProgrammer That will surely be interesting :) there is always something to learn
 
@Als yep, that's the story of our lives :)
@DavidRodríguezdribeas oh ok
@AProgrammer oh I see, well I'm always learning...
 
Als
1:44 PM
@All: Best way to learn templates?
I need to...
 
@Als book on templates
 
@DavidRodríguezdribeas If I don't remember to do it, bugs me when I'm at home (the WE or in 4 hours).
 
@Als Josuttis and Vandevoorde's book.
 
Als
@Tony: Yes i know, i asked a couple of days ago about books
which is one is best
 
1:46 PM
@Als that one
 
Als
There are no of books....by best i mean from point of view of basics of templates
 
@Als huh? you want to understand the basics of templates?
that book starts from the basics....
 
As far as I know, this is the only book specifically on C++ templates. So by definition, it is also the best one ;-)
2
 
@FredOverflow, it put the bar so high that it discouraged all the other writers.
 
Als
@Tony, @FredOverflow, @AProgrammer: This or Josuttis ?
 
1:48 PM
@Als it's two authors for 1 book
 
@AProgrammer If I remember I will bug you :)
 
They are coauthors, even if Amazon doesn't show it.
 
@AProgrammer which it does, written on the book cover
 
Als
@Tony: C++ Standard Library, A Tutorial and Reference by Josuttis
is single author book
 
@Als that's not on templates only, but on Std lib
@Als I never said that all his books were coauthored, just the one on templates I was referring to
 
Als
1:51 PM
@Tony: No my bad i didnt mean you said, just im not familiar with all his books so maybe the confusion
 
@Als no worries
 
Als
right templates first then the standard library i suppose then
 
@Als If you want to learn to use the SL, that book is good. If you want to learn to write template, the other one is the one you want.
 
@Als: If you want to learn C++ templates, buy the C++ templates book. If you want to learn the C++ Standard Library, buy the C++ Standard Library book. It really is as easy as that.
 
Als
@AProgrammer, @FredOverflow: Yes, thanks
 
1:52 PM
@Als Using is easier than writing. You may learn to use the SL first. Well, I would even recommand it.
 
@FredOverflow it simpler then a lot of C++... that is
 
@FredOverflow It also means that it is the worst book on c++ templates
 
@ChrisBecke Right :)
 
@ChrisBecke don't be so negative :p
 
Als
@AProgrammer: True, the thing is practically using it makes the difference...As long as one doesn't get to use it in real world projects its difficult to just dabble the books
 
1:54 PM
@Als yea that's what I've found
 
Als
@Tony: And that is why i feel a lil weak in those aspects...no or little practical exposure
 
@Als sure
 
There's many people that have learned templates without the book, so you might also consider it... (I have read about the book, but never actually got around to read it)
 
Als
Is everyone here a C++ programmer from practical work exposure or anyone from personal preference of the language
@DavidRodríguezdribeas: Yes but information on internet or other sources is a little difficult to be sure of especially when learning...a well established book atleast gives that confidence of what i am learning is correct.
 
@Als me personally, the first language I ever touched was C++, then i went to .NET (all in my own time) and now back to C++ for work
 
2:01 PM
@Als I guess I'm in the latter category. I used C++ a lot during university, but that was mostly my own choice, not something that was forced on us
 
so most things I've learned from C++ are really from work experience
I did read a book on it though
and learned a lot from SO and talking to people here
 
Until a month ago, I had a .NET job
 
@jalf now you're in C++?
 
@Als Can you really differentiate it? I started as a Java programmer, then I learned C++, and whenever I have moved to a different company I have looked for C++ jobs
 
Well, now I'm at a C++ company, doing a bit of everything ;)
 
2:02 PM
I would say that you get to choose a part of what you want from the job... I am for sure not going to go to VB, but I would not mind C#...
 
my first project was maintaining the only C# code they have, and now I'm trying to help them migrate to Git
 
@jalf aren't the requirements for getting a C++ job much more stringent then .NET?
 
and some Java will probably sneak in too, but yes, there ought to be some C++ in there sooner or later as well ;)
 
Als
Actually it depends...On the type of job one is in ..If you are in a product based comapny u can very well stick to what you like and what you know...like c++ if you are in a service based company you have no choice
 
@jalf my new job will .NET and some C++
 
2:03 PM
@Tony not sure, tbh. Varies a lot in my limited experience. Those who use C++ because they need to do something low-level/high-performance/whatever generally have high requirements, but some just use C++ because that's what they used 15 years ago, and they're not very demanding
 
sbi
@Als I ran into and fell in love with C++ when I was studying. I programmed in C++ during an internship (practical semester) and did a thesis in C++. Then I got a C++ job. Then another one. Then another one. And then these guys here came a long, grilled me for my C++ knowledge, gave me the job, and now I'm doing C#.
 
anyway, what I know of C++ is really because I was interested in the language, and 1) tried to learn it on my own, and 2) sought out C++-related classes and projects at university
 
sbi
@Tony You're getting a new job??
 
got my introduction to generic programming and TMP through a uni class
 
@sbi yes, cause certain things at this really piss me off
 
2:05 PM
@Tony Whenever I have been (in the past) in the hiring side, I have always looked for bright people, not knowledge sets. One of the most productive person in my previous company was a guy that had done no C++ at all before joining the company for a C++ position (he was a C coder of sorts --he said that they wrote XML templates that were translated to C code, and then they played a bit with that to solve issues)
 
sbi
@Tony I hadn't known that! (Well, I knew about the "pissing off" part.)
 
and it's not C++
 
sbi
@Tony Too bad.
 
Als
@jalf: thats Nice I came from a Engineering background with a bachelors in Instrumentation :)
 
@sbi hahah if it was only that, I would have stayed
 
Als
2:05 PM
so i had to learn myself
 
@sbi oh, running away from your multithreading service thing? :D
 
cause I like C++
 
@jalf I use c++ because its what I used 15 years ago when I got my first programming job :P
prior to the job Id only been trained in pascal actually
 
@ChrisBecke I thought you used C with classes? ;)
 
@jalf :)
 
2:07 PM
C++, 15 years ago, was C with classes.
 
sbi
@jalf It seems I have indeed fixed it this morning. <knocks_on_wood/> There has been a dozen testruns since then, and none of them failed. Hopefully it stays like this until tonight...
 
yeah but I thought you still used it, I mean
 
I will miss doing full time C++ though
 
Als
@All: How many years of professional experience in C++?
 
given your comments about Stepanov and all that
 
2:08 PM
.NET is not the same after having delved into C++
 
sbi
@ChrisBecke Actually, that was 20 years ago. 15 years ago, I used BC, and that had templates.
 
@sbi Oh, I meant @Tony, actually ;)
 
templates were things used only by nerds who didnt mind that their code didnt work the same on any compiler other than the exact version they had.
BC had templates. But they wernt the same as msvc.
 
sbi
@Als I got my first C++ job in 1997.
 
Als
@All: How many years of professional experience in C++?
 
2:09 PM
@jalf no, not running away from it, I have practically finished it :)
 
lets see... 1995 precisely. 1994 actually when I started
 
@ChrisBecke Uhm... where does that leave Alexandrescu or Stepanov when he wrote the STL before templates were in the language and depending on features that were not even approved?
 
should be finished when I leave, euh, if I stop spending time in here
 
Cyberjack was the name for a Web browser application created by Delrina in 1995. It was sold as a stand-alone product, and was also bundled as part of Delrina's CommSuite 95 offering. In addition to the Web browser application, it also included an ftp client, Usenet newsgroup reader, an IRC client, a graphic interface to gopher services and more. It used a Wizard-based front-end that would provided access to all of these services. It was touted as being the first 32-bit based Web browsing program, and was aimed squarely at Windows 95 users. It could transform seamlessly from one applicat...
was partially my fault.
 
neat
 
2:10 PM
@DavidRodríguezdribeas on my time machine hitlist :P
 
k, offline again until I get home, getting of the train in 2 mins
 
Als
@sbi, @ChrisBecke: decades of hard work i see
me < 3yrs
@sbi, @ChrisBecke: decades of hard work i see
 
@jalf you sit on the train with a dongle just to chat on here?
I thought I was addicted....
 
I got a 10 years award at my current place of work. And that was a few years ago. sigh
 
sbi
@ChrisBecke Actually, I was a bloody newbie then, but I needed a list class to be used for different data types. Took me days to get this up and running at home. When I tried to show it, gcc choked on it.
 
2:12 PM
@sbi painful :(
 
@sbi I was a newbie then too. I didn't touch templates until 2000ish
 
sbi
@Als Actually, if you count the internship I was doing, I started my first C++ job in 1994.
 
Cyberjack was written in MFC you see.
 
Als
@sbi: Next thing that might be revealed is you were helping Bjarne!! 1994 is almost there!
 
1994, eh? Maybe sbi is the real genius behind the STL... the Sbi Template Library? :)
 
sbi
2:15 PM
@Als Haha. Really, when I bought The C++ Programming Language, it was the 2nd edition already. And that must have been a year before my internship. Or did I only buy it later? I'm too old...
 
@sbi Do you keep saying you're too old cuz you're grumpy or cuz you really think you're too old
cuz you're really only as old as you feel
 
sbi
@Tony If you knew how old I feel, you'd apologize for that. :)
 
@sbi I wasn't trying to make less of you or offend you, but yes I'm sorry if I did
 
sbi
@Tony Sorry, forgot that smiley.
 
@sbi :)
chats are really hard to convey emotions...
 
sbi
2:19 PM
@FredOverflow No. When the STL arrived, it hit me like an oncoming freight train. I was totally unprepared for it, and struggled a lot getting to grips with it. I can't say that there was any one event when it clicked, but over time I grokked it. By the time I started my second job, I kept running into bugs with home-brew string and container classes, so I started replacing all that I came across.
 
@sbi strangely, because early stl implementations were a tad dodge, and Ive always been exposed to an environment where multiple compilers are being used, my early experience of stl classes was bad, compared to the roll our own container classes.
Which is why I still don't trust it.
 
@ChrisBecke though it's pretty good after all these years....
 
@sbi Got mine in 98. The previous one was for my knowledge of C++ (they intended to migrate from MAINSAIL to C++, but then...)
 
sbi
@ChrisBecke I dunno. In my first job I had to use BCB, which wasn't exactly stellar in its template support, and in my second VC6 it was, which was abysmally worse than anything else. Still, the container classes coming with the compiler had less bugs than those my cow-workers had produced.
@AProgrammer Ah, but you missed when I corrected that to 1994! :) :) :)
 
cow-workers LOL
 
2:24 PM
@DavidRodríguezdribeas Templates are in the ARM, whose copyright is 1990.
 
sbi
@Tony Yeah, I started working there in 1999, and by 2000 I was giving C++ lessons.
 
@sbi hehe
 
If I'd have known about the difference between c and c++ when I started c++, I think I would have stuck to c :P
too late now.
 
@ChrisBecke go tell Linux Torvals that, he'll be happy to hear :p
 
@sbi I remember installing CFront in 1991. But I wasn't professionnaly using C++ at the time.
 
sbi
2:26 PM
@AProgrammer I never used CFront. I started out with BC3.0.
Anyway, I do need to go back debugging the flow of my objects through this system. I added a new kind of objects, and these bastards keep either clogging the system or getting forgotten in some tube's corner, wrecking the system either way. And since I want to have a week off next week, I'd better get this up and running now...
 
@AProgrammer The specification of templates at that point was closer to generics than templates, or so I understood from Design & Evolution of C++
 
Als
@sbi: All the best...Years of toil will sure bore fruit :)
 
@Als shouldn't that be "bear fruit"
 
@sbi Just yesterday, I was looking for something like std::find in Java and couldn't find it. I guess sometimes we take the STL for granted :)
 
Als
@Tony: Yeah i thought so but then theres some user here with the bear name and i thought better to keep uncomplicated lol
 
2:30 PM
@Tony a bear isn't a fruit though ;)
 
Vic-basic, 6502 assembler, gw basic, turbo basic, pascal, turbo pascal, 80x86 assembler, object pascal, c, c++(c with objects), c++, python, lua, more c++ I think traces the route through most of the (programming) languages I know
 
Als
Suddenly I have this whole fear gripping me that I am the only one who has not worked with C++ for "decades"...yeah read decades
 
@Als the only one in the whole world
 
Als
@jalf: lol forgot to add "in here"
 
@DavidRodríguezdribeas IIRC, it lacked explicit specialization. But D&E is 1994 and mention them.
 
2:32 PM
nah, if I stretch it a bit, I'll say I learned C++ around 2002, but that's really pushing it
early 2004 is probably more realistic
 
sbi
@FredOverflow Java is an OO language trying to mimic C++ in syntax, C in spirit, BASIC in speed, and assembler in ingenuity. :)
 
Als
@jalf: You still beat me by a margin ;)
 
@sbi I thought it was trying to mimic an OO language as well
 
@sbi Can't say I used it much. I needed it for a program I used -- and debugged a little -- but that's all.
 
it certainly doesn't have a lot in common with Smalltalk, or the features Alan Kay said defined OO
 
2:34 PM
I guess I was a late adopter then... less than 5 years of C++ experience
 
@Als Don't worry, you're not alone. I never worked with C++ professionally, and the little I messed with it was more C with classes than C++.
 
sbi
@AProgrammer I think it was the first IDE worth the name.
Anyway, I do need to go to back debugging now!
 
I'm still gathering courage to dive in completely.
 
I think I read a crappy Schildt-book on C++ in 2002, and in 2004 we had to learn the basics of C++ for our OS class
 
@sbi My "it" referenced CFront, not BC++ 3.0.
 
Als
2:35 PM
@MartinhoFernandes: Feel little intimidated by the C++ giants here? ;)
 
@sbi Java: the friendly syntax of C with the blazing speed of Smalltalk.
2
 
I'm mostly afraid it will suck all my time away.
 
@JerryCoffin lol
 
OH, WHoops, Objective-C as well.
 
Als
@JerryCoffin: Java the language u dont need to remember because IDE's prompt you everything :P
 
2:38 PM
@Als that's not a bad thing in itself though
 
Objective-C is the child of C and SmallTalk. C++ is the child of C and Simula.
 
I wish the IDE could just write all my code for me. And design it and debug it
 
@Als Hmm...I thought it was the language I didn't need to remember, because I'd just rather forget it (or better still, it had never existed).
 
@jalf but not get your salary, I guess... not a bad deal
 
Als
@jalf: Agree...professionally would make life tough though
@DavidRodríguezdribeas: hehe exactly
 
2:39 PM
Java is just a way of saying "a very weird dialect of c-with-objects designed to be as inefficient as possible".
I think it was made that way to make a simple language that would encourage developers to run CPUs as hot as possible to bring on global climate change faster.
 
Als
Finally something new to shoot down except singletons and Tina...Java!
 
{I have no facts to back up these allegations other than the self evident nature of my claims}
 
@Als The problem is, it's a pretty boring target -- can't defend itself, and when it tries to move out of the way, it's too slow to present a challenge...
4
 
I always find interesting how someone comes up with a new language, takes away a bunch of features from other claiming that it is either unnecessary or bad and when they reach version 7 they patch the language to add that feature back...
 
Als
Anyone care to change the room name or the saga about it still on?
 
2:43 PM
@DavidRodríguezdribeas And do it badly.
 
I am talking RAII and the new/weird try block in Java... try (Type x = new Type) {}
 
@DavidRodríguezdribeas I thought that was inspired by C#'s using block.
 
is that like C#'s using?
 
Als
@DavidRodríguezdribeas: Might as well say new for in java
 
@MartinhoFernandes Right, if you explicitly design to remove something, and then you have to patch against the design it is not going to look pretty
2
 
2:45 PM
It always puzzles me why people consider stuff like that to be RAII
 
@MartinhoFernandes same old, same old... they are exactly the same thing: introducing deterministic destruction when exiting a scope
 
@DavidRodríguezdribeas So how long before Java gets really crappy operator overloading?
 
version 8? 9?
 
@DavidRodríguezdribeas Generics with type erasure. I rest my case.
 
in my mind, the entire point of RAII is that you don't have to do anything at the use site, the resource is capable of taking care of itself.. And using blocks don't achieve that
5
 
2:47 PM
@jalf same thing, changing the using to try (maybe to make it more confusing?), and changing the interface to implement form IDisposable to SomeThingElseSoCompletelyDifferentThatIsUnique... ie, same thing
 
@DavidRodríguezdribeas Ah, same as .NET copying Java's Deprecated attribute, and renaming it Obsolete ;)
it's so cute watching those two platforms
 
@DavidRodríguezdribeas I think that was to avoid introducing new keywords and break old code.
 
btw, anyone know how the whole lambda debacle turned out? Is Java going to get them at some point?
 
@jalf Cute in a little the same way as it is to go to a bar and stay sober so you can realize what how complete of idiots a lot of people make of themselves.
@jalf The last I heard, it was "probably someday, but not today" (i.e., not Java 7).
 
I was thinking of two three-year-olds trying to out-cool each others, but yours works too ;)
 
2:53 PM
@jalf The difference is that even though children are ignorant, they're often pretty smart. This is more like two badly retarded 80-year-olds trying to out-cool each other. They're not only ignorant, but are convinced that technology from 50 years ago (or so) is the newest, coolest thing possible...
 
@jalf well... sort of, I tend to think on C# using or Java ARM try (ARM: Automated Resource Management) as a smart pointer: you do need to store your raw pointer in the smart pointer at the point of use...
 
@JerryCoffin Last I heard it was "yay, Java 7 getting closures". About a year ago.
 
Als
Refactoring new programing languages from old ones than iinventing new ones
Anyone heard of Google's Go?
 
@MartinhoFernandes The official list is at: openjdk.java.net/projects/jdk7/features. I don't see it there, but could be missing it.
 
@DavidRodríguezdribeas hmm, you could say that. But then again, I'd argue that a smart pointer in itself isn't RAII either, for that exact reason. In C++ it's sort of a gateway to getting pseudo-RAII semantics from a non-RAII class, but if that's the best you can get, then I'd argue that your language doesn't support RAII
@Als well, in fairness, much the same could be said about C++. It's not like it's really pioneering the science of programming language theory. It's still building features that have been known for 30 years into a language based on 50 year old ideas
 
2:58 PM
I have never really programmed C#, but the syntax (and paradigm) is familiar enough for me to understand it. I took a look at how to implement IDisposable interface and I remember saying oh my, such a pain to actually write a type that can be handled in a pseudo-smart-ptr (or scoped_block)
 
@JerryCoffin Oh, you were right then, it's under "Deferred to JDK 8 or later"
 
@Als I liked it, until i saw that gc was non optional.
 
@MartinhoFernandes wasn't there some Oracle-related fuss, where they suddenly retracted the closures thing and went "oh well, we'll try again at some indefinite point in the future"?
 

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