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3:00 PM
because I'm having to rewrite the application anyway, so I have no reason to stick with a C++-alike
 
sbi
@cpx You will find VC much more like C#. But GCC has better C++11 support.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes oh right
Glad to hear it :)
 
sbi
30 mins ago, by sbi
@Abyx I have worked with a codebase of several MLoC, and I strongly prefer them to not to introduce new keywords as simple as ref, because it's very likely that this would break several kLoC in such a codebase.
 
@jalf Eh. If you fixed many of the C-compatibility-based problems in C++, I think it would be a perfectly fine language to use
 
cpx
hmm
 
3:01 PM
@jalf try Vala
 
it wouldn't really be C++-alike anymore
 
sbi
@CatPlusPlus What's happening is that the puppy gets raped^Wowned by a damn furious penguin in a quite impressive way. :)
 
@DeadMG Maybe. But my point was that if your language requires my to rewrite my application, then you (the language designer) will suddenly be competing against far more than C++
 
true
 
@sbi Sounds painful.
 
3:02 PM
Then I am suddenly able to choose from any language
 
sbi
@DeadMG You talking to me? :)
 
choose Vala
 
cpx
@sbi VC?
 
but firstly, I'm pretty sure that you would have a much better time splitting into a C++-alike
 
sbi
@cpx Visual C++.
 
3:02 PM
and secondly, I'm also pretty confident of competing against those other languages
 
@sbi ref will break code only if you have #define ref somewhere
 
USE VALA!!!
 
whereas if you do as C++ did, start out source compatible with the existing Big Language, then people can migrate to it without a full rewrite, and then your language will only realistically be competing against the existing Big Language
 
oh ghosh
 
eh. i use c++ because of what it is and what it does, not because of its syntax. the syntax rather sucks. if i use another language, i'm not gonna pick another C++ lookalike just because it's kinda like c++.
 
3:03 PM
what a 3 hours waste in search of one extra space
 
sbi
@Abyx Ah, a context-sensitive keyword? Shudder. Those are something compilers can deal with. Humans cannot.
 
I don't get the focus on languages by themselves. Implementations of languages are far more important to me.
 
@sbi They work rather fine in C#.
 
LAST WARNING: HURRY UP AND USE VALA
 
well, I use C++ out of choice, not because I have any legacy programs to use
 
cpx
3:04 PM
any idea about Visual C# and Portable.NET?
 
user406009
@Intermediate gtkmm > Vala
 
@IntermediateHacker WHY? WHAT GOOD IS IT?
 
@Abyx but the reader of the code has to understand it, and not just that "ref is a keyword", but also determine that "ref actually behaves like a keyword in this situation". And that's what you call "nice syntax" or "readable"?
 
and I think that it can, and will, compete just fine against Haskell or Ruby
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Do they? I have yet to notice such a beast in C#. (Which somehow proves my point, doesn't it?)
 
3:04 PM
Please stop talking in bold caps?
 
cpx
Is it like VC++ and G++?
 
@sbi Everything they've added since v1 was with contextual keywords. Not a single "hard" keyword was added in any version after v1.
 
@DeadMG I thought you kept saying you hate C++ and can't wait to stop using it?
 
that's because the C part is broken
not because the ++ part is broken
 
@RMartinhoFernandes LOL, Talking in bold caps??
 
3:05 PM
@jalf yep, reader should know language what (s)he read
 
I firmly believe that if you cut the C crap, and don't break anything else, and then generally give it some polish, there's nothing wrong with it at all
 
Lol Vala. As if I wanted to ever use GTK+.
 
cut the C crap and it becomes another java clone
 
@Abyx er, what does that have to do with anything whatsoever?
 
If only you knew how awesome Vala is. It compiles to machine code and has got lambda expressions !!!
 
3:06 PM
@Pubby Not at all.
 
@IntermediateHacker so does c++.
 
@IntermediateHacker So does C++, and Haskell
 
user142019
@IntermediateHacker Objective-C too.
 
@IntermediateHacker Pretty much everything but Java has lambdas.
 
Weren't we comparing C++ with and without T^ or ref new? So it's not a matter of "knowing the language", but of whether adding this new syntax is a good idea or not
 
3:07 PM
and presumably about a billion other functional languages
 
@DeadMG but it's way more convenient than C++
 
And secondly, it is not enough to know the language. You also have to understand the context well enough to determine, when you see a ref, is this a keyword in this context or not?
 
user142019
And FALSE. Use FALSE.
 
yeah, if you like GTK+.
 
>Vala is a programming language created with the goal of bringing modern language features to C
 
3:07 PM
Vala isn't just GTK+
 
that sounds like a terrible idea that has failed multiple times
 
the entire object system is built around GObject.
 
Vala is compatible with every damn C Library
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes So? I started with C#2 or 3 (I forgot), and I don't know if I never noticed because I never used a context-sensitive keyword and never ran into code that does, or because I just didn't notice when I ran into, or even used, one.
 
So is C++.
 
3:08 PM
C is a terrible language for this era, so by default, the only thing you can do with it that won't result in something terrible is to start cutting
 
user142019
@IntermediateHacker Objective-C too.
 
all u have to do is wrap it in a VAPI
 
And every other sane language.
 
VAPI?
 
What happened in Liège?
 
@jalf btw, IDE can show token with different color if it's keyword.
 
user142019
Objective-Vala
 
IDEs suck.
 
user142019
@Abyx text editors can do that too.
 
Nobody uses Vala, that's the truth.
 
3:10 PM
@CatPlusPlus Vala is used for a lot of projects
 
@sbi You probably never noticed :)
 
Wtf is VALA anyways?
 
user142019
@IntermediateHacker name 10 of them.
 
i haven't even heard of vala til now. and i've heard of a lot of crap no one uses.
 
Only around GTK+.
And that's crap, along with GObject.
 
3:10 PM
Vala was a character in Stargate.
 
vala is C# with gtk it looks like
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Which just goes to show that it isn't made for human consumption.
 
Ubuntu the 11.10 Window Manager Unity is written in Vala (Not related to GTK+)
 
I want to see this chat as a tree
 
@Abyx Yes, and? Remind me what that has to do with the discussion of language vs library features, or whether more syntax is automatically a good thing
 
3:11 PM
Unity is not a good example of not-crappy software.
 
FUCK EVERYTHING ABOUT ALL THE THINGS :P
5
 
like anyone cares about ubuntu software. :)
2
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes And weren't Valas something in the HP universe?
 
@IntermediateHacker I heard it was written with Qt's QML
 
user142019
lol
 
3:11 PM
@sbi I don't understand. Why aren't they made for human consumption? Did they cause you trouble?
 
sbi
@TonyTheLion WILL YOU STOP YELLING HERE?!
 
@sbi Never read or watched HP.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes ISTR this not being the whole truth.
 
Cue another suspension for Tony.
 
@sbi Yes, it is.
 
3:12 PM
@jalf I don't see any problems with adding some more language syntax
 
lol
 
Unity is a shell interface for the GNOME desktop environment developed by Canonical Ltd for its Ubuntu operating system. Unity debuted in the netbook edition of Ubuntu 10.10. It is designed to make more efficient use of space given the limited screen size of netbooks, including, for example, a vertical application switcher called the launcher. Unlike GNOME, KDE Software Compilation, Xfce, or LXDE, Unity is not a collection of applications but is designed to use existing GTK+ programs. Unity is part of the Ayatana project, an initiative to improve the user experience within Ubuntu. In ad...
 
MY EYES! Take it away!
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Ha! Caught the robot lying! :)
 
user142019
That user interface is the most horrible ui ever. It's ugly and doesn't work. I tortured myself once by using it.
 
3:13 PM
unity is a step backwards in UI design
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes "Take them away"?
 
@Abyx I know you don't, you've made that clear half a million times now. And yet you keep trying to change the subject and wriggle out of it when we describe problems caused by additional syntax
 
Unity is written in the programming languages C++ and Vala and uses an uncommon OpenGL toolkit
 
What.
 
sbi
@CatPlusPlus What what?
 
3:14 PM
Also, one project uses Vala, oh my.
 
@IntermediateHacker so, it's partly written in vala. and uses GTK+, of course.
 
Vala can also be plugged into and existing C (or C++) code-base
 
It still sucks.
 
user142019
@IntermediateHacker Objective-C++ too.
 
@IntermediateHacker So can Python
 
3:14 PM
It does not use GTK+ , or QT etc.
 
That's just marketing buzzword bingo.
 
it uses raw OpenGL
 
whatever.
 
sbi
@IntermediateHacker So can Ada. :)
 
Oh, it can be plugged into.
 
3:14 PM
buzzword bingo?
 
That doesn't even make sense.
 
@sbi What? Where did I lie?
 
But why would we care? Why is Vala more interesting than the 200 other languages trying to grab our attention?
 
vala is just a rehash of the past 10 years
 
@sbi "Uncommon OpenGL toolkit" (let's forget that OpenGL is not a "toolkit").
 
user142019
3:15 PM
Vala is just C-C#-Java++ with an easier-to-pronounce name.
 
@WTP it is 4 different languages?
 
Java++, ugh.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes I said ISTR this not being the whole truth and you agreed to that.
 
It's got the best features of all of the above minus defects
 
It insists on that "put everything into a class" crap.
 
user142019
3:16 PM
@jalf en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vala_(programming_language) see the examples. Include the ")".
 
"minus defects" my ass.
 
That makes it non-usable from start.
 
@jalf more precisely - I don't think that ref new can break existing code, and I don't think that one will need some effort to understand what ref new means, even is he see it first time.
 
who determines what the "best" features are?
 
@sbi Oh! I was saying "Yes, it is the whole truth."!
 
3:16 PM
every language has "defects". if it doesn't, it's not worth using.
 
sbi
@IntermediateHacker I'd consider it using GTK a defect.
 
Damn ambiguous foreign language.
 
@CatPlusPlus wrong it can be programmed using a functional approach too.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Oh.
 
and like I said before, does this include the actual "best feature"?
the one of source compatibility?
 
3:17 PM
combining imperative and functional never really works out
 
Oh my, what functional features does it support?
Functions?
xD
Not even first-class functions, I presume.
 
`void main () {
print ("Hello World\n");
}`
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Didn't you say you did read (the beginning of) the first book? Or am I confusing you with someone else (or the series with another one)?
 
just like plain C or C++
 
sbi
@IntermediateHacker Please read the newbie hints. Among other things, they explain how to paste code here.
 
3:18 PM
That's not functional at all.
 
void main()? you should be shot
3
 
user142019
@IntermediateHacker wow, must be great. not.
 
@sbi I read them dammit.
 
cpx
Objective C is like C? I hardly ever seen a question about objective-c here hm
 
@sbi That must have been someone else. Other than The Player of Games, which I'm currently in the process of reading, I finished all fiction books I started reading.
 
sbi
3:18 PM
@DeadMG I was waiting for someone to say that. (What's wrong with another language using another return type for main()?)
 
you can't really claim to take teh best features from a language if you don't have source compatibility with it. Because that is its single best feature
 
Objective-C is C with some Smalltalk-esque features badly shoehorned into it.
 
user142019
@cpx It's a superset of C. Most Objective-C code is crap, except when written by me.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Or I'm confusing the series, and you read the first book of some other series and stopped there. Damn.
 
Featuring some most ridiculously named method names in history of APIs.
 
3:19 PM
@sbi Ok, now that's possible. Probably talking about the Mote.
 
cpx
@WTP standardized language?
 
user142019
@CatPlusPlus such as initWithBitmapDataPlanes:pixelsWide:pixelsHigh:bitsPerSample:samplesPerPixel:ha‌​sAlpha:isPlanar:colorSpaceName:bitmapFormat:bytesPerRow:bitsPerPixel:?
 
user142019
@cpx no.
 
Hey, how exactly does Oracle earn money from the OpenJDK ?
 
De facto primary dialect is controlled entirely by Apple.
 
3:20 PM
and Google from the Android?
 
objective-c is c++'s retarded cousin. it's how NeXT/Apple decided to add OO to c.
 
user142019
@IntermediateHacker by putting the world "Oracle" on it.
 
There are some GNU implementations, but nobody uses that.
 
cpx
oh we have too.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes I thought it was when I pointed out my profile at scifi.SE. ICBWT.
 
user142019
3:20 PM
@cpx that's the worst thing ever. That's Objective-C and C++ combined, but an Objective-C class cannot derive from a C++ class and vice versa.
 
Objective-C++ is even weirder abomination than Objective-C.
 
no seriously, google , oracle etc. don't charge u for their open-source software, so why do they make it?
 
its only saving grace is that it reminds me of smalltalk.
 
@IntermediateHacker Out of good will? World domination?
 
They have plenty of money out of commercial stuff.
 
user142019
3:21 PM
@IntermediateHacker to save me the effort.
 
Google makes a shitload on Adsense and Youtube.
 
cpx
rarely used tag indeed
 
And Adwords.
 
yo yo
 
user142019
hello, Ollie.
 
3:23 PM
@sbi "just like plain C or C++"?
 
Oracle makes money on, surprise surprise, one of the biggest and most expensive database engines ever.
 
no it sure as hell wasn't
 
i hate oracle sql
 
user142019
I hate SQL.
 
yeah that too
 
3:23 PM
Yeah, sequels suck.
 
@CatPlusPlus never understood that one either. what makes oracle so worth the money?
 
Enterpriseyness.
 
user142019
@cHao big companies use it, so it "should be good and we should use it too otherwise we're shit."
 
There's a lot of inertia involved, probably.
People use it because people use it.
 
@IntermediateHacker Consider OpenJDK. It is a high quality Java implementation. Its existence will presumable make Java more popular. Now Oracle can capitalise on that by selling Java certifications, Java training, Java servers etc...
 
3:24 PM
Well, corporations.
 
It's not even webscale.
 
user142019
MongoDB ftw
 
@WTP heh. so basically, no good technical reason.
 
i have a big oracle sql exam in jan
not excited
 
3:25 PM
Also, they're both public companies, so they have investors or however that crap works.
 
user142019
@cHao no. It's like Java.
 
java has its perks. well, had, anyway.
 
Google also has Android.
 
android ftw
 
It's not really that hard to find where they make money.
 
3:27 PM
@CatPlusPlus In a secret basement!
 
they print it
 
And also why they contribute to open-source projects.
 
now, if i want java, what i really want is c#. :P it's java plus useful stuff, minus the AbstractSingletonFactoryFactoryBuilderSingleton mindset.
 
At least it has lambdas.
 
user142019
FALSE has lambdas too. FALSE ftw!
 
3:30 PM
I belch in your general direction
 
You're an ass.
 
indeed
 
user142019
I have an ass.
 
What do you feed it?
 
my baus
 
user142019
3:32 PM
It's never hungry.
 
You let your ass starve? Poor animal.
You're a mean person.
 
user142019
I know, that's why I'm on Stack Overflow.
 
lol
 
I have lambdas. Poor little things. I have to always be on the lookout for liondas.
 
wolfdas are a more realistic threat
 
sbi
3:35 PM
Not sure whether they've found the Higgs Boson, but it's clear that they haven't discovered PowerPoint 2010. #CERN http://twitpic.com/7sr2dq
 
I don't believe sheep and lions actually coexist anywhere in the world
 
user142019
PowerPoint sucks.
 
sheep are a cold-weather animal, lions are a warm-weather animal
 
@WTP No, it would be why one might be on Meta. Nice people on SO, mean ones on Meta.
 
@DeadMG Some sicko's backyard?
 
3:36 PM
maybe
 
bah. they're not that mean on meta. they're just different. :)
 
My lambdas are in an ancient reality simulator. They used to have liondas and lambdas within reach.
 
user142019
Meta is græy and boring.
 
@DeadMG I'm a lion and I coexist with sheep.... :P
 
@cHao If they're that mean, I'd suggest to them that they look for an expert sex change.
 
sbi
3:38 PM
Just in case any of you still believe in God:
The CERN team's slides appear to be using Comic Sans. There is no God. #Higgs
:)
 
@cHao they're meta
 
@sbi lol
the internet doesn't like Comic Sans I've discovered :P
 
user142019
The average teacher does.
 
sbi
I dated a wildlife documentary maker once. He RUINED my Planet Earth DVDs with his 'that's not real' chatter and didn't get a snog. Bastard.
Haha!
 
3:39 PM
@sbi God believes in CERN
 
I have a feeling I have to go to that damn shop after all.
I don't like it.
 
hahah
 
user142019
@CatPlusPlus If you don't like it, don't do it.
 
It's nice to get out sometimes
 
user142019
No, it's not.
 
3:40 PM
It's cold to get out sometimes.
 
I'm hungry. :(
 
sbi
Does David Cameron's 'full-bladder technique' work? The prime minister conducted his EU negotiations while intentionally 'desperate for a pee', to achieve maximum focus. What do the experts think?
I'm sorry for all the junk humor, I just can't help it.
 
rofl
 
@sbi Sorry guys, I don't give a shit what you think, I need to pee. (No puns were mortally wounded during the recording of this quote)
3
 
David Cameron is an idiot, and I didn't vote for him
 
3:43 PM
You can vote?
 
of course I CAN
 
I know, I'll just go to sleep to preserve energy until tomorrow.
 
technically, I'm a responsible adult
 
3:45 PM
:(
 
sbi
@DeadMG You know, this comes across as a particularly meek statement.
 
meh
meek or arrogant is a switch I flip at will
 
> By a vote of 93-7 the Senate this month approved a military appropriations bill empowering the government to designate any U.S. citizen within the country as a terrorist and to have the military hold him indefinitely without trial and without the right to habeas corpus, the right to be brought before a court for a judgment on the legality of one's imprisonment.
WTF is going on?
 
@sbi "So what should we do about the river flooding every year. Should we let the dam loose, or wait for the pressure to build up. The waters will surge if we don't. Homes may float away, and people will lose their belongings. Moral will decrease when people find out they have to let loose and evacuate the deep water zones." .... "Hmm..... maybe not good idea."
 
@RMartinhoFernandes The United States are going all psycho
 
3:51 PM
http://stackoverflow.com/q/8490566/343443
I can't get why all of them white "XXX crashing my application" but not "my ugly buggy application crashes when it calls XXX" =\
 
@DeadMG It's not Psycho, it's 1984.
 
I just opened a pack of gummy lifesavers, which is supposed to be randomized. 5 of the 30 pieces were something other than cherry. Good thing I like cherry, or I'd be like DAMN-RNG!!!
 
if you were in the US, you'd sue them
 
@DeadMG He is in the US.
 
lol
 
3:53 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes What the hell?
 
This is what you get when you allow a legislate to vote on the laws they write.
 
enjoy your democracy...
 
i hate that programming is addictive
 
I'm supposed to find a configure.exe in my QtSDK folder
I don't find it at all
anyone know where it would be hidden?
 
3:55 PM
@TonyTheLion configure.pl ?
 
@Abyx for a windows env
 
or maybe you should build something to get .exe
 
I want to build Qt to work with VC++ Express
 
Isn't there a one-click installer?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Ironic, since Nanci Pelosi and friends labeled all of the South, veterans, religious folk, and gun owners as potential terrorists in a document they released moments after Obama won presidency.
 
3:58 PM
isn't there a manual?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes well, there is, but with VC++ Express you can't use the plugin that the Pro edition of VC has, to compile Qt projects
 
"RTFM & hth" - I saw this some days ago
 
so you need to configure shit
like this
 
sbi
@TonyTheLion Why are you using VC Express? Aren't you at work?
 
@sbi no this is for home
 
4:00 PM
you can build a torrent client first
 
according to this header file: dl.dropbox.com/u/26148849/typeext2.h Could i assume thath_i_fragment is the fragment contained with a block and that h_i_frag would be the size taken by the fragment inside of the block?
h_i_frag is the fragment number and that h_i_size is the size of the fragment within the block even
 
I hate it when people ask me this
 
haha me too
I then look at there status and if i do actually like it I won't 'like' it
 
reason #318 why i hate facebook.
 
4:12 PM
WTF = Where's the Fire
 
Is that a game or something? If you have more likes than anyone else, you get a prize?
 
you get to know that you spend too much time thinking up a status
 
no. But people like getting their statuses liked bcuz that means they are smart( although they just probably mindlessly copied it from elsewhere)
 
yeah, i always notice the ones who copy straight from sickipedia
 
If only I had the source code of the paint.exe bundled with win-9x and XP
 
sbi
4:26 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes Of course, we at SO would never play such games.
 
user142019
Unfortunately, I'm back!
 
user142019
@IntermediateHacker decompile it
 
in the property sheets of a vs project there is lots of variables with $(SOMEDIR), where are these defined?
 
sbi
Someone (@RMartinho?) asked about Liege today. I just read about it. Damn. @Tony, @Stacked, @rubenvb, and whoever else is from Belgium: I hope you and yours are fine!?
 
user142019
4:39 PM
I'm near Belgium and what happened was terrible.
 
@sbi Yep, that was me. The question got buried in the running discussion about syntax.
 
user142019
That were three minutes of silence.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes I just didn't get it, because I didn't know what "Liege" stood for. (The news here use the German name for the city.)
 
user142019
In Dutch it's called "Luik". That's clearly not a German name.
 
cpx
I think they just changed the flag weight to show with precision
 
user142019
4:48 PM
Mine is exactly 390. What do you mean?
 
@cpx Nah, that's been like that all along. It only shows like that after you get past 500, though.
 
user142019
kool
 
cpx
oh i see
whats the point in 499++?
hm
 
After 500 the increase per flag is no longer integral. It diminishes exponentially.
 
user142019
I think they should round it in the view.
 
4:53 PM
@sbi what about lieger
 
cpx
At first i thought it would be hard to achieve such score.
 
sbi
@TonyTheLion Some guy threw grenades at a bus stop. Watch the news.
 
user142019
@sbi and he shot people.
 
@sbi yea just saw, don't have people I know in Liege
thank god
 

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