« first day (2786 days earlier)      last day (333 days later) » 

12:01 AM
@cigien I concur with Machavity; I don't think any of us thought we could actually use our mod powers to affirmatively promote the strike. The messaging was kind of messy, but the mess wasn't about that, which I think is just sort of expected.
That's partly why no rooms have been frozen for the strike: only RO powers have been used.
...other than me accidentally freezing this one for about 5 seconds a few days before the strike, which really was not intentional and I'm still unsure how I managed to misclick that.
 
Moderators or staff on MSE have once again resorted to deleting comments without reason. Reasonable and valid comments under this post of mine are now gone.
This marks a return to 2019’s and 2020’s censorship of comments.
This concludes my participation in the Stack Exchange community.
I can not, in good conscience, say that I belong to a community in which a difference of opinions is forbidden.
 
[waffles - apparently this already exists]
 
I can neither comfortably take part in a community in which angry opinions are considered too harsh to be on display, or simple thruthful statements about behaviour are not allowed.
 
What did the comments say?
...definitely missing my "show deleted comments" button right now ^^;
 
2 or so criticized me. At least 2 of them were responses to the critique.
Everything was valid. Even the critique. Even though I strongly disagree with it.
There were not even a lot of comments, so no need for cleanup.
 
12:10 AM
It's unfortunately hard to judge without actually seeing the comments.
 
Definitely. I’m not going to dig them up at this moment. I was going to sleep, but just noticed this, and decided to paste it into this room, as well as my potentially last messages to this community.
I do happen to be considerably grumpy at this moment, so I might change my mind.
 
I don't think you can dig them up even if you wanted to unless you are secretly a mod or an employee
 
Usually most of my more sweeping comment moderation is of the "a conversation that was heading off the rails about X was removed; if you want to discuss that, please take it to [a mod flag|a new meta question|a chatroom]" sort, which often involves a comment from me.
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine MSE comment archive.
 
wait, there's an MSE comment archive?
 
12:13 AM
wait, there's an MSE comment archive?
 
Yes. I asked Zoe to create it 2-3 weeks ago.
 
...wow, I can't believe I never just...looked. chat.meta.stackexchange.com/rooms/1702/…
oh okay, so I'm not crazy and it really wasn't there before
 
all right, I... stand corrected
 
She rewrote Boson in less than a day. Credit to me for bringing it up. Credit to her for being kind to fulfill my request, and doing all the work.
 
12:16 AM
I cleaned up some of the outdated comments myself, days ago.
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine dates from <1 year ago are shown like that.
 
@RyanM-Regenerateresponse I missed a year?? 2023-06-08 07:46:00Z
 
not sure what you're looking at, but that would ....oh
context?
 
@RyanM-Regenerateresponse are you getting different timestamps in the transcript?
nvm, that's Chat Transcript helper acting weird
 
12:19 AM
lol
yeah I turned that off
 
Anyway. I’m going to sleep now. I’m angry, so nobody wants to talk to me at the moment, and I don’t want to talk either.
 
for a second, I started to think I went crazy
crazier than usual that is
 
Thanks for your interest, though. I appreciate it.
 
have a good night
 
Thank you. Good night.
 
12:21 AM
night!
@RyanM-Regenerateresponse I'll let Sam know (but I think they know about the issue) and probably will employ the power of "I'll fix it myself"™ :)
 
Final note to whoever comes across the transcript, and decides to respond: no, I haven’t looked for other deleted comments at the moment. I may be jumping to conclusions. You do not need to point that out. I am aware.
 
@Machavity also it wasn't exactly communicated widely what time zone the strike started in. For me, I considered it to start at midnight in my time zone, although it's not like I was doing much if anything in the way of moderating before that, in large part due to all my SE time being spent reading transcripts.
@ZoestandswithUkraine has anyone at SE actually read the moderator agreement?
> Stack Exchange, Inc. agrees that it will:
> ...
> Get your explicit written permission before commenting to any media (including media outlets controlled by Stack Exchange Inc.) or independent reporters about you or your moderator actions as per our Press Policy.
sure sounds like "commenting to any media...about...moderator actions" to me
@markalex The issues with the Hugging Face detector extend beyond the bug; it is fundamentally quite inaccurate.
This has been known to the moderators for a long time.
> In a statement sent to Dev Class, Stack Overflow’s Beaudette told us:
>
> “A small number of moderators (11%) across the Stack Overflow network have stopped engaging in several activities, including moderating content. The primary reason for this action is dissatisfaction with our position on detection tools regarding AI-generated content.
This is a lie. It has been made abundantly clear to SO, Inc. that the dissatisfaction is regarding how the policy was rolled out, as well as its prohibitions that go beyond the use of technological detection tools.
 
12:38 AM
random musing: I've be been crawling all over network metas collecting data, it's so sad to see that most network sites either low activity, close to death, or are essentially dead already...
@RyanM-Regenerateresponse what's concerning is that it's, apparently, Philippe who's attributed as the author. I'd understand the CEO being unaware / not caring too much, but this...
 
I agree completely.
Philippe had gone to great trouble to win the trust of the community and moderators. I believe he had succeeded. Assuming these quotes are accurately attributed, it's very disappointing that he's decided to throw that trust away.
 
Yeah, I was initially overly skeptical, but over time they kind of grown on me too. Well... it shucks be the "told ya" guy. brb
oh, yes, found it [necessary disclosure: I am the OP]:
54
A: What's one thing that you wish we remembered?

Oleg Valter is with UkraineThat network curators have lives too Including close/reopen voters, reviewers, editors, userscript creators/maintainers, and everyone else involved in keeping the network afloat from the community's side. That every time a change is made to the UI, or how review queues work, or how votes are coun...

The whole Q&A reads so ironic these days
 
1:35 AM
we're having chat.meta.stackexchange.com/rooms/1702/… ? What's that for?
("Meta Stack Exchange Comment Archive")
 
1:57 AM
in case SE starts to be overly aggressive in cleaning up, I presume?
on an off-note: so this is how chat flags look like? o_O
 
yes
oh wait, If orget you don't have 10k yet
@user202729 back in 2020 or so when Monicagate was happening, lots of comments were getting deleted on Meta
This chatroom was an effort to log them all
so that users could retain context, and see what was being said and by whom, even if moderators deleted it
I am recalling from memory, so it could be from some other incident but I am pretty sure it was either that or from one of the times a certain mod blew up on Meta
 
2:12 AM
oh wait, you're talking about the MSE one.
it's probably there for the same reason the MSO one was created--to preserve deleted comments for people who aren't MSE mods
 
2:43 AM
@TylerH yeah... took me a couple of hours to realize it's not the unread replies count
 
3:17 AM
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Yes but chat.SE is on SE...?
 
@RyanM-Regenerateresponse Although if no messages get posted for a while, they will freeze, I believe
 
Hm...? the announcement post on metais closed...?
Please don't close this question. We want users to be able to post responses to the announcement as answers. (cc @cocomac ). — user202729 1 min ago
 
3:40 AM
@user202729 I'm tempted to post a reopen-pls request (in here) for that ... but, meh.
Also, TIL: A post can still be closed by voters even if it is "featured".
 
Someone could put a bounty on it to prevent that I guess.
 
Has to be reopened, first.
 
(what for, though. Well you can insert a little message of your own if you do post the bounty)
Looks like the closure makes the post unfeatured on the sidebar...?
 
> Sorry about that. But, we don't have a way to "vote to keep open" AFAIK. While I did VTC as the final voter, I also voted to re-open quickly after. If that was the wrong thing to do, then I'm sorry for that. At the same time, knowing that it would get VTC'd sooner-or-later, the best choice seemed to be to close it and then vote to reopen right after (comment by me)
/cc @user202729 @AdrianMole
 
What can be done to keep that post open? Don't the required improvements sit with the company? I would like to continue seeing community answers :-(
 
3:49 AM
A Staff Lock (or whatever it is called)?
 
@cocomac That would be a moderator lock, which is a moderation activity, which can't be done because of the strike.
 
A CM can, though
 
@cocomac CMs have no incentive to do so. They're SE employees, which means they're not going to openly support the strike.
 
@KenWhite well, that's a special case, I suppose + Tink explicitly noted they aren't on strike
 
@user202729 Right, I forget bounty is only possible after 2 days.
 
3:55 AM
There are a number of different types of lock available for a question but I don't know if there is one that prevents close votes yet still allows new answers.
 
4:45 AM
Hot Meta Posts sent me here. Is StrongBad who I think they are?
 
That depends. Who do you think they are?
 
Someone who answers emails and draws pictures of dragons.
 
@DanielWiddis ...and who do you think they are? :) Dang it, sneaky Mith
 
4:58 AM
It's also disappointing to see active intervention to deprioritize strike posts. That's not going to make them go away.
 
you mean the unfeaturing?
 
@KenWhite moderator locks are terrible for keeping posts open, because they also prevent other actions on the post. Our go-to solution is closing the post ourselves and immediately reopening it.
 
I'm only going on what I read in that post, that alleged "SE employees are taking it upon themselves to circumvent the community standards, and remove the featured tag". Assuming that's true, yes. That concerns me.
 
That blocks the same people from voting to close again, and eventually we run through all the people who mistake close votes for super-downvotes.
@TylerH yeah, I meant that no rooms have been frozen for the purpose of implementing the strike. We'll of course unfreeze any rooms that auto-freeze that the ROs want unfrozen.
@DanielWiddis honestly I didn't know the policy about consulting mod teams regarding featured posts existed
it's an interesting question of how you do that if the whole mod team is on strike, although I guess it's not like we're on strike from talking in the mod room.
but also there's not a lot of room for compromise between "we absolutely want the strike notice featured" and "we absolutely do not want the strike notice featured". I guess one could compromise on the duration maybe?
 
5:18 AM
There should not be any need for compromise if there is an established agreement on what is supposed to be done by whom.
 
@RyanM-Regenerateresponse Pretty sure that was a direct result of the last time they did stuff like that.
 
@DanielWiddis The relevant part of the policy is:
> - Posts that are or become overly antagonistic, or that draw out disruptive behavior or discussion will be reviewed to see if the cause of concern can be removed. If not, the post will be unfeatured by Mods or CMs.
> In either case CMs will work with Moderators first before unfeaturing and should it be necessary to get a post removed from the featured list sooner than it would naturally age out of the cache, moderators can request help from the CMs to do so.
 
Well, "overly antagonistic" is very objective and measurable....
 
It's unclear how CMs would "work with Moderators first before unfeaturing" a post that they just don't want featured due to drawing out disruptive behavior.
I assume that such working-with would consist largely of telling the moderators to unfeature it.
really though this policy is sort of weird as a solution, because the only circumstances with a notable gap in understanding of what constitutes a problem on a meta post between mods and staff is situations like this where the post is about a dispute between mods and staff.
like...if people are antagonizing staff in meta posts, we generally try to make them knock that off.
even in these sorts of disputes, we try to get people not to be overly antagonistic, although fortunately for SO mods the bulk of the discussion has been on MSE and so the need for supervision on MSO hasn't been much.
(the mods who aren't striking have done some comment cleanup on the worst of the antagonism)
 
@cigien The way the warning was presented was not acceptable. And I would be furious if they were sanctioning mods for adding the tag, because there's no way to prove they got the warning. But simply removing the tag is not something that I personally see as unacceptable. It is not the company's obligation to promote our strike. Their misinformation campaign is totally unacceptable. But they've been very reasonable about only unfeaturing posts that actually announce the strike. Posts that merely discuss the new policy are still being left featured, and those, indirectly, announce the strike by giving people enough information to ask questions.
There's another side of this, which is a somewhat technical one, but logical: the featured tag is a mod-only privilege. If a mod is on strike, they're saying they're not using the mod tools. So they can't feature things.
I guess the loophole to this would be to get a mod on your site who wasn't striking to feature the post. And that loophole wouldn't work, because staff would still remove the featured tag. But still, I think this is a logically consistent policy that is being enforced in a reasonable (albeit ad hoc and thus imperfect) way.
 
5:33 AM
...though, similar to the spirit of continuing to moderate chat to keep the community able to have intact and smoothly run discussion spaces, I'm wondering if continuing to moderate meta would be a good exception.
 
@Andreasdetestscensorship The title is deceptive, at least from SO's official position.
 
Some of the stuff in those deleted MSO comments has no place in a civil conversation. It's just insults.
also programming questions on MSO are just not helping anything ;-)
 
@Mast Another reason why it's good: it's falsifiable. We've been discussing going back through and doing an extensive analysis of all the posts we've removed for being GPT-generated and seeing if we can find any mistakes. If we can't, then staff is wrong. If we can, then we were wrong. Either way, we have our answer.
 
@TylerH honestly though the MSO comment archive is a suuuuper useful moderation tool... makes it easier to keep an eye on every conversation from one place.
 
It is? I've never used it. Mods can see deleted comments directly on the page. Way easier than chat.
 
5:38 AM
@RyanM-Regenerateresponse But they help the asker! /s
 
@CodyGray-onstrike I mean to see new stuff being posted. People commenting on a post from a year ago doesn't bump the post, but it might be noise.
 
I haven't seen programming questions on Meta recently. In particular, I don't see any now. Has someone been removing them? Dharman or Henry, perhaps?
 
So, "yes". :-)
 
at least one close voter there is on strike from main though :-p
@RyanM-Regenerateresponse or, y'know, all the people who are determined to use the comments on every answer on the original ChatGPT policy posts to argue about the policy one way or another.
in The Meta Room, Apr 12 at 20:45, by Ryan M
Time to play "how many answers to the ChatGPT policy will the moderators have to lock before people stop using them to post random comments about ChatGPT or the policy?"
 
5:41 AM
@RyanM-Regenerateresponse "all the people" You mean that one person?
 
@Mast That's a very good title. And article.
It does defy belief that Phillippe is continuing to make claims that mods are relying on detector tools.
@RyanM-Regenerateresponse I think this is going to happen; close voting is an instinct now.
 
@VLAZ-onstrike- hahaha oh how I wish it were only one
 
I thought you meant the most recent bout of comments. Fun fact, I'm following all posts in that Q&A. Yes, all posts. No, I'm pretty sure that's not what a sane person should do. Anyway, I got like a dozen notifications or so the other day...
 
A dozen from the policy.
I have thankfully not followed all the strike posts yet.
 
5:48 AM
@VLAZ-onstrike- fortunately for me I seem to have missed that round.
 
But it was a dozen of one person commenting on a bunch of answers. And also posting an answer. Which was just a reiteration of "SE should incorporate ChatGPT"
 
@VLAZ-onstrike- I don't follow anything. All of those are pings directly to me, or comments on my posts.
@VLAZ-onstrike- The User With Many Names?
 
another popular post to post noisy comments on is the one about close reasons. those I follow because I want to catch edits, too.
 
@CodyGray-onstrike Different one. Newcomers from what I can tell.
Then they had a bunch of comments after that.
 
> The ultimate goal of computer science is to create a self-aware, all-knowing system.
No.
The goal of computer science is to build crap that doesn't suck.
Like most science.
 
5:51 AM
in The Meta Room, 16 hours ago, by VLAZ -on strike-
TIL
 
One room at a time...
 
Not many left active, so that means less time to go through them, right? :P
 
I will say it is somewhat nice to have things consolidated in one place.
Unfortunately, there's now Discord....
@markalex The claim that has been made is that the AI detectors (like Hugging Face, ZeroGPT, etc.) are biased against non-native speakers of English, and, thus, using the detectors as the basis for removing AI-generated content and suspending the users who posted it is going to inherently be biased against non-native speakers of English, and, in particular, those from certain countries.
There are several problems with this. First, mods haven't been relying on detectors, so even if you prove the detectors are biased, this doesn't prove that mods are. Second, as you mentioned, I don't believe the conclusion, and neither do many others. The detectors are, if anything, most likely to be biased against native speakers of English, who naturally write like the AI has been trained to write. For example, my own writing is quite similar in a lot of ways to the output of ChatGPT.
Third, this idea of bias against non-native speakers of English is particularly ironic, given that we run a site that requires all posts to be written in English. Thus, the site itself is inherently biased against and exclusionary of non-native speakers. Many won't be able to participate at all. The subset who do will find that their poor writing skills often lead to their posts getting few to no upvotes because they're not deemed clear by the audience.
We don't know what exact data Stack Exchange used to reach this conclusion about the detectors being biased (they haven't shared that with us, and we don't really care that much, since we've never relied upon the detectors), but someone who looked it up did find this article.
Unfortunately, the research methodology used by the authors of that article is extremely unsound, or, at least, doesn't support their sweeping conclusions. They relied exclusively on a small sample of writings from an insular group of people who were all trained to write in similar ways.
 
6:11 AM
@Cody Maybe you should mention - at least in passing - that mods have not been relying on the detectors. ;-P
 
Maybe I missed it?
 
> First, mods haven't been relying on detectors, so even if you prove the detectors are biased, this doesn't prove that mods are.
It was the first thing! :-)
 
Does your being on strike prevent you from parsing sarcasm?
 
I have disabled all of my userscripts, so potentially.
I did consider that, possibly, you were referencing this:
17 hours ago, by Mast
I see a lot of comments in multiple chat rooms today that I can't help thinking "I know, we told them. Why do you think we're striking?"
@RyanM-Regenerateresponse @OlegValteriswithUkraine Henry's was non-public. I asked him about it, and he, me, and a couple of other mods chatted about it in the SO mod room.
While he's not signing the letter, he is supporting our cause. But that's all I can say, obviously.
 
6:15 AM
Hah, interesting topic for research. Will try to read it later.
My question was born of this answer. It's controversial in my opinion, and decided to engage (regret later).
 
I do not, at all, understand their claims in the "high risk racial bias" paragraph.
 
Particularity statement that "mods are not the community".
 
Yeah, they've clearly had some bad experience. Probably disagreed with some site policy, and a mod forced the issue. Not uncommon.
 
@CodyGray-onstrike Oo, they also edited it quite a bit. And still it is as confusing, as original paragraph was. And now it reads as exactly opposite of the original stance.
 
Yeah, it seems contradictory to me. And it does not reach a clear conclusion.
It's practically arguing that there'll be bias against both those who speak English well and those who don't. How can it be both?
 
6:24 AM
@CodyGray-onstrike I think mostly it tries to argue that the type of English used should not be judged at all when it comes to considering ChatGPT generated content.
Also, doesn't quite succeed at arguing that but I believe it's the intention behind it.
 
Well, I don't follow that argument. Why can't we judge the specific type of English that ChatGPT generates?
 
@CodyGray-onstrike I don't know how it happens on other sites, but here on SO, I always felt that mods are extremely aware of community. And any controversial point can be freely discussed on Meta, that wouldn't result in mods enforsing unpopular opinion.
 
I think they're confused, honestly
> Command of the English language is isn't generally an indicator for ChatGPT both positive or negative!
 
Yeah, I think the SO mods do tend to have a pretty good grasp on what the community wants.
On the other hand, I have personally argued on multiple occasions for doing what I/we think is best, not necessarily what popular consensus is or appears to be.
 
suddenly acquiring perfect command of the English language when you could barely use it last week is such an indicator.
 
@RyanM-Regenerateresponse AI-generated Zwitterions?
 
Or having perfect English in answers but writing poorly in comments and/or mod message replies.
 
@Andreasdetestscensorship I know you already said "moderators or staff on MSE", but I want to emphasize that again. Mods on MSE are very zealous about deleting comments, so it is not fair to jump to the conclusion that it was staff suppressing discourse. It may well have been, I don't know either, since I don't have mod privileges there, but you cannot just jump to that conclusion. MSE mods have a very different moderation style than we do on MSO.
 
@RyanM-Regenerateresponse Or in your profile. Or having released a book with literal typo in the title.
 
Sure, I don't necessarily know where you got it. Maybe it's AI, maybe it's you copy-pasted and something run through Quillbot. All I know is that the person who wrote some of the content is not the person who wrote the other content, or at least that they had significant help.
 
6:29 AM
@Andreasdetestscensorship Dude, you gotta put these disclaimers up front, not buried at the bottom. :-)
 
Really, I don't have a conceptual problem with using AI to enhance writing, although the current AI kind of, uh, sucks at it.
Apparently there was an incident on another site where ChatGPT "enhanced" their writing to the point that it was incoherent, while the original writing was actually fine.
 
Oh, apparently I have a Sam script for chat.
 
Multiple incidents, on multiple sites, just going by those few that I happened to hear about.
 
It's a little distracting, TBH...
 
Yeah, he modified the chat notifications to be less distracting, as I understand it (I think before it was a pop-up message box), and he also made the banners on the main/meta sites closeable.
 
6:32 AM
It was "More Magic Links" I disabled it. I don't think I've actually consciously used it. It's not like I use magic links in chat that much.
 
try updating if they're still overly obtrusive
 
Meh. It was just the one script. Disabling works for me.
 
A Japanese website has the story and includes a picture of what it looks like in the Teachers' Lounge. Caution: Story contains some severe inaccuracies!
 
Where is the photo of the Teachers' Lounge?
 
6:35 AM
^ this one?
 
I have never seen a description in the press of Stack Overflow more accurate than "Q &amp; A site"
 
More than 600 moderators...
 
@RyanM-Regenerateresponse It's astounding how well the press knows SE
 
6:36 AM
@AdrianMole It's possible they meant people who have signed the petition, which they think are all "moderators".
 
@AdrianMole Eh, technically all signatures are of moderators. Just not all of them diamond moderators.
 
yeah, like the moderators closing all the questions we get complaints about on meta all the time
 
I guess that's part of the machine translation problem they warn against.
 
@VLAZ-onstrike- That's not TL. That's the bot farm that TL is working to protect against.
 
All of the signatories are refraining from moderation activity, so...it's not even THAT wrong.
 
6:37 AM
@RyanM-Regenerateresponse We totally do that. Mostly as duplicates, since, well, they are.
meta.stackexchange.com/a/389858 (now deleted, sorry to the non-10k-ers on MSE). But, a comment by the author:
>
To be fair to StackExchange, LLMs are a massive existential threat to their business model. I pay for a ChatGPT subscription, and have on several occasions gotten better and faster answers from the AI than via questions posted in parallel on StackExchange. If the folks making the decisions at SE aren't in full panic mode at the existence of LLMs, then they don't fully grasp the state of things. "Please, PLEASE don't do anything to drive users to the AI!" seems like a valid panic mode response to me.
 
@CodyGray-onstrike I mean the people complaining on meta that moderators closed (or "deleted" or "locked" but really it's almost always actually closed) their question on main.
 
I do not understand this. How are people getting "better" answers from ChatGPT?
 
it also almost never involved a diamond moderator.
 
> It contains a claim that the number of posts is very high
 
@CodyGray-onstrike I am told that GPT-4 is considerably smarter, though I haven't tested this myself in part because I don't want to give them money.
But if you have a question that is a well-understood problem, ChatGPT will happily customize the solution to your existing code.
 
6:40 AM
> and that even requests for improvements were sloppy.
The site is telling it how it is xD
 
Was just looking on MSE to find confirmation whether or not closed featured questions are still featured. And you'll never guess what I found. This gem, from former employee, Laura:
3
A: Prevent [featured] questions from being closed

LauraI'm declining this, mostly for the reasons that given in the other answers here. Yes, we have had a few close/reopen back-and-forths on featured posts recently, but it doesn't warrant creating a special case in the software. These instances are pretty rare, so probably don't justify any develop...

> the act of voting to close sends a signal that can be quite valuable to us (Stack Exchange employees). It's part of the very feedback that we come to meta to find.
The strike is about this spirit having left the building.
 
Does it actually work? Is it correct?
I have no clue; my knowledge of Android and Java is about on part with an LLM.
 
Haven't tested it but it looks fine. My only quibble is that I wouldn't pass the Context in; that's unnecessary and I'd strip that out if I used this. But it's still a timesaver compared to writing it myself.
 
I guess.
I feel like if an AI can generate a significant fraction of your code, and it's a timesaver for you, then your language/tools have way too much boilerplate.
3
Furthermore, as someone noted the other day in the Python room, writing some amount of boilerplate isn't really a timesuck, because you can do it essentially on autopilot while you are thinking about the more complicated code that you are about to write.
 
6:48 AM
or just tell ChatGPT to fix it, that works too: chat.openai.com/share/87307d07-c1a5-40f5-906d-0672da6a3be2
 
Fix what? That's the same link.
 
hmmmmm, so it is...
Well uh, that doesn't seem to want to update with the rest of the conversation despite re-sharing it.
> You have shared this chat before. If you want to update the shared chat content, delete this link and create a new shared link.
 
@CodyGray-onstrike "it's useful for writing boilerplate" - is, indeed, one of the arguments I don't get, like, at all. In the meantime it'll take me to devise the prompt and verify that the output is in any way correct, I'll write said boilerplate thrice over...
 
ah it would help if I read the fine print.
 
@CodyGray-onstrike Yeah...not convinced, really. "Boilerplate is not bad because you can literally waste time and space out while writing it" is not that strong an argument.
And I understand you're just repeating the statement, not making it yourself.
 
6:50 AM
Yeah, exactly. If you're anything but the freshest of beginner (in which case, you should be learning from better examples), you can write the boilerplate in far less time than it takes for you to faff with writing a prompt, and, while doing it, you can think of what code you're going to write next.
 
@CodyGray-onstrike I mean...no one is going to deny that Java and RecyclerView have a lot of boilerplate. That's why we're pushing people to switch to Kotlin and Jetpack Compose. But there's still a huge amount of code for the existing frameworks.
 
@VLAZ-onstrike- The argument wasn't necessarily that boilerplate isn't bad. It's that having an AI write it for you doesn't save time.
 
"If you're anything but the freshest of beginner (in which case, you should be learning from better examples), you can write the boilerplate in far less time than it takes for you to faff with writing a prompt" I am literally the maintainer of the library and it is still much faster to ask for it.
 
@RyanM-Regenerateresponse Like all the people who don't read the accuracy disclaimer. :-p
@RyanM-Regenerateresponse Then there's something very badly wrong with your library....
 
1 min ago, by Ryan M - Regenerate response
@CodyGray-onstrike I mean...no one is going to deny that Java and RecyclerView have a lot of boilerplate. That's why we're pushing people to switch to Kotlin and Jetpack Compose. But there's still a huge amount of code for the existing frameworks.
we know! it was based on a system designed a decade ago for devices with orders of magnitude less compute. back then, the entire screen had the resolution of a modern app's icon.
 
6:53 AM
I don't see how boilerplate improves efficiency on constrained devices.
Remember, I write firmware for embedded devices with near-real-time requirements. A bunch of boilerplate and badly-designed APIs isn't my tradecraft.
 
A lot of the boilerplate is designed to force you to use a particular pattern that encourages recycling of UI elements.
 
@CodyGray-onstrike I'm more on board with reducing the need for boilerplate. And do that usefully. At my current place (grumbling incoming) we have one of the lead developers who loves "simplifying" stuff but ends up just introducing different boilerplate. Here is one thing I found (was shown...) yesterday:
await ServiceProvider
	.GetRequiredService<IPersistDataManager>()
	.WithProcessName("Persist data")
	.WithTransactionForPurpose(RabbitMqPurposes.PersistData)
	.WithDbContext(true)
	.Begin()
	.PersistdData(dto))
	.Commit()
 
I'd be somewhat interested to see what kind of code ChatGPT could generate for MFC, which does have some non-trivial amount of boilerplate, and is something that I use routinely to build GUI apps for Windows. I don't have an account with OpenAI, though, and I don't plan to create one. I also suspect it wouldn't be very good, since there probably wasn't much if any MFC code in its training data.
 
The previous iteration of adapter-backed scrolling lists didn't do that, and failure to correctly recycle was a common mistake.
 
@VLAZ-onstrike- I can honestly say I have no idea what that code does by reading it. It's clear as mud.
 
6:57 AM
To point out why that's weird - you need the .WithDbContext(true) to be able to access the database. And that's there to call .PersistdData() which...saves to the database. Also to use the .Begin() and .Commit() for a transaction. So this chained API is just writing lines of code but in a different way.
 
@VLAZ-onstrike- how many of those parameters are required?
Builders with methods for required parameters are bad
 
@RyanM-Regenerateresponse ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ probably all. Not sure. Maybe the process name is just for printing in the logs, I'm not even sure.
When I say "all" I mean all for this invocation. It's really a call to PersistdData but has all the other builder stuff around it to facilitate it.
If you call a different method, maybe you need less or more. Dunno - the object that's being used itself inherits from something called BaseChangeManager which introduces all of these methods and more.
Super convenient. Saves so much boilerplate. (this is sarcasm)
(also, before anybody mentions it - yes, I missed copying an opening bracket. Sorry for the caused anxiety)
 
You mean, ServiceProvider()?
 
(await it closes just before .Commit()
 
I have no idea.
Is PersistdData a typo?
 
7:06 AM
@CodyGray-onstrike Erm, yes. Tried to slightly anonymise it to a more neutral just "data" mentions. I didn't quite succeed.
(await ServiceProvider
	.GetRequiredService<IPersistDataManager>()
	.WithProcessName("Persist data")
	.WithTransactionForPurpose(RabbitMqPurposes.PersistData)
	.WithDbContext(true)
	.Begin()
	.PersistData(dto))
.Commit()
If you want the more correct code.
With bonus less indentation where the brackets end.
 
7:30 AM
God, that's so ugly.
 
There is no God here...
 
The strike letter is down. Error 502.
 
Server is striking.
(I think there is something that will automatically restart)
 
Pinged mousetail in the Tavern.
 
@Andreasdetestscensorship Probably deploying
 
7:36 AM
No, it was a bug. Noticed an issue I had opened was just closed as completed with a commit.
in Tavern on the Meta on Meta Stack Exchange Chat, 48 secs ago, by mousetail
I noticed, reverted my last commit now
 
@Mithical I plead of you, oh God of fire, please don't let any more of this code.
I can offer you a peanut as tribute. Ryan didn't want it but I hope it appeases you.
 
Did you know that a peanut isn't actually a nut?
 
@VLAZ-onstrike- I think you've confused me with Fezzik.
 
@AdrianMole It's a legume. Or maybe to quote Ryan:
9 hours ago, by Ryan M - Regenerate response
peanuts are bottom-tier nuts
 
As Mr Lennon once sang, Give peas a chance!
 
7:42 AM
I offered Ryan a wing nut instead. But I get the feeling he wasn't up for negotiation.
 
Did he bolt away?
 
Really screwed me by not answering.
 
I think I'm losing the thread, here ...
 
Excellent joint effort
 
It all hinges on the execution.
 
 
1 hour later…
8:59 AM
Personally: not really, AI can be smart sometimes (I write the docstring, example usage and copilot fills in the rest).

However it only saves time assume I don't double-check the result. I find just reading the result not too reliable, to be reliable I should rederive the logic and compare with the existing code -- which clearly takes more time.

There's also a technical glitch that copilot can be a bit slow for me sometimes (a few seconds) so if it's just a line of code I'd just write it myself.
 

« first day (2786 days earlier)      last day (333 days later) »