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4:42 AM
@VLAZ That doesn't actually explain anything. Specifically, it doesn't explain how he found that revision number.
@Turing85 Yes, I get it, of course. But I raise you that this is made-up silliness.
@Turing85 That's usually a sign that there is no reason for the decision which was made. :-)
 
4:58 AM
 
 
1 hour later…
6:00 AM
Surprisingly accurate but still misguided custom close reason of the day: "Iā€™m voting to close this question because it is garbage." (it was spam)
 
@RyanM Maybe send the message I've been sending for this?
Although it's shocking to me that the two (or three?) people I've sent it to so far could have genuinely not known, they appear to have... genuinely not known.
The author of that close reason is, in fact, an SO employee, but still... no spam flag raised.
 
If only the facilities for finding past mod messages were less of a trash fire...
 
Oh yeah. Well, less a trash fire, more like a dumpster blown over and scattered by the wind.
 
@CodyGray ...oh wow, I did not notice that.
@CodyGray accurate.
 
Hm. Today I learned "your messages" only filters the "all messages" view. If there are none of my messages that are in the "all messages" view, "your messages" is totally empty. I thought it would go back further in the history...
 
6:09 AM
@manro since when Russia is a she?
@manro contradiction is the definition of being a paradox
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Since forever. What gender did you think Mother Russia was?
 
@CodyGray no gender as a non-actor? :)
 
Russia is the Motherland; Germany is the Fatherland.
Everyone knows this!
 
oh... so that was what the Great Patriotic War was about!
 
Mommy and Daddy fighting
They eventually got divorced
 
6:21 AM
poor Berlin - shared custody with uncle, mother, father, and John
 
Britain is John?
 
yup, I failed to find a more suitable propaganda joke than John Bull :)
 
Ah, right.
 
 
2 hours later…
8:00 AM
@OlegValteriswithUkraine In German - it(das Russland) or she(die Russische Föderation)
Ukraine is she also)
 
Grammatical gender is not the same thing as actual gender.
 
@CodyGray Cody is right, Texas Soviet Republic is real šŸ˜
 
in English, it's it, @manro. It's not a boat (although it might be a good metaphor for what it is doing these days)
 
@CodyGray pls no gender theory, i don't want hear it...)
 
"Texas Soviet Republic"?
 
8:05 AM
@CodyGray Yes, Texas is like a small Russia in the USA)
@OlegValteriswithUkraine ye, ukr is sinking, but i think, it reborn with new authority
 
@manro Ugh, I think that may actually be true in many respects...
 
@CodyGray Do you like it, or not?
Are you more conservative or more liberal?
 
@manro I think you got it the other way around, mate
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine let's stop about politics :)
 
@manro what's wrong with gender theory? There's a big difference between sex and gender
 
8:17 AM
@manro Says the person who asked me about my politics? :-)
 
Oleg, please, stop :)
 
I am extremely liberal.
 
Ok, no politics. I saw so many epic wars in the Internet (about politics) in these days)
 
@manro being open to hear about beliefs that are not part of one's comfort zone is an important trait
 
The scarier thing are the epic wars in real life about politics.
 
8:29 AM
I don't want to try discussing about politics in real life in USA. Firearm wounds are real too šŸ˜²
@OlegValteriswithUkraine it is tolerance
 
But pls stop it...
 
stop... tolerance?
 
These themes, we shouldn't close. They can lead us to the bad results (
I have a more important questions
 
@manro eh, I fail to parse what you mean here, sorry
 
8:38 AM
@OlegValteriswithUkraine unintelligible speech :)
 
well, that's what I said :)
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine We have no tolerance for tolerance here!
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine what do you plan to do today, except working?
 
@CodyGray 0-tolerance policy for tolerance indeed!
 
I have an item on my calendar to annoy some people in chat for a couple of hours today.
 
8:42 AM
Ha-ha)
 
@manro eh... working, eating, smoking, annoying people in chat too for a while, watching a series, maybe a film, maybe reading. Depends on how it goes, officer
 
Cody, you have GMT-5 or -6?
 
...do you mean where Cody lives or the hours they actually keep?
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine and don't want to teach me smth new :)
@RyanM ye, where he locates now
 
@manro oh, sure, forgot about that! So... back to the gender theory then
aaaand with that I can cross the "annoying people in chat" item off the list too!
 
8:47 AM
@OlegValteriswithUkraine no, not this theory! What is your favourite book about IT?
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Smoking! :-(
 
@CodyGray well, living's going to kill me eventually either way :)
 
@manro I currently live in UTC-5, work for a company in UTC-7, and keep hours that make virtually no sense, because I stay up all night.
:54497474 Well, sure, but that doesn't make it any less gross.
 
@manro eh, good question. I don't read on IT much, documentation usually. Design Patterns: Elements of Reusable Object-Oriented Software is probably the one
 
@CodyGray wow, you are still in the previous day šŸ˜²šŸ˜
 
8:52 AM
@CodyGray yeah, sure. Picked it up last year due to trying to cope with personal circumstances - hard to stop
 
@manro I'd probably have to say:
aw, no onebox
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Yeah, that's understandable...
 
@CodyGray been trying to reduce the intake for months, but IT isn't the best of occupations to give up bad habits :)
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine old true book(1994), i'll see after.
 
Yeah
It's also heavily C focused, although most of the advice can be easily generalized to all types of programming
I read a lot of the older books, because those are the ones I could get my hands on cheaply.
 
@manro do read it - it's often regarded as the book. Much more useful than tutorial-style ones. Quite abstract, though, so might not be an easy read
most good books in my area of expertise are hopelessly outdated otherwise
 
8:58 AM
@CodyGray C language is the our God the Son) Asm is the God the Father. And who is the God the Holy Spirit...?
 
Oops. I should check to see who messages are actually replying to before replying to them. :-)
@manro Machine language?
 
Both books are downloaded, thanks, my boyz :)
 
on mobile, I presume?
 
Yes :)
 
There are so many good books
Code Complete is excellent
If you're at all interested in performance/optimization, enjoy good writing with lovely anecdotes, and don't mind that the ostensible focus is nearly-obsolete x86 assembly code, then Michael Abrash's Zen of Assembly Language is well worth a read. It is available for free (legally!) online: github.com/jagregory/abrash-zen-of-asm (HTML version here: jagregory.com/abrash-zen-of-asm)
 
9:03 AM
@manro yeah, sometimes, when editing a message, the server assumes you posted a new one. It's an odd bug
 
@CodyGray Is it relevant even if you don't deal with x86 at all?
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine now i understand, how you detected, that i use the phone )
 
@RyanM I mean... not directly, but it's chock-full of tips on how to think and drawing broader lessons, so... yes.
 
@manro did you think I am clairvoyant? Although I can see how one could make this mistake
 
This summarizes the overriding lesson: jagregory.com/abrash-zen-of-asm/#the-flexible-mind
There's a lot to be learned from the specific examples, even if the actual context is not something you'd ever use again. It's like how you can learn a lot about grammar by learning a new language, even if you never actually speak that language.
 
9:10 AM
@OlegValteriswithUkraine or intelligencer šŸ˜
 
@manro I would not admit that if I were one, would I?
 
Writing solid code isn't the book for me, i don't understand :(
 
Heh
You don't like to write bug-free programs? :-)
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine certainly šŸ¤­
 
@manro do you write liquid code?
 
9:18 AM
Oh wow, a scanned PDF of the whole thing is online...
 
@CodyGray i like, but don't understand. I sure, that this book is for advanced guys, like you)
@CodyGray yes, i downloaded šŸ˜
 
Yeah, you won't get anything out of it if you don't already know how to program. You have to have solid basics.
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine liquid?
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine All my code is gaseous.
 
9:20 AM
Weird... Am I the only one who writes plasma code?
 
@VLAZ not advanced enough - all good code is plasma
sneaky Cody!
 
I hear it's pretty hot right now
 
@manro just a states of matter joke :)
 
@CodyGray i need something for noobs with examples. step by step with the gradual complication)
 
Hmm. I don't know of anything like that.
 
9:22 AM
Which gender has your code? šŸ˜šŸ¤­
 
Well, Petzold's Programming Windows, 5th edition. But only if you're actually interested in doing Windows GUI programming and actually understanding what's happening at the API level.
@manro I've heard programmers who scream out "die! die!" regularly. I assume their code must be female.
4
 
@CodyGray I also heard them scream "crap!" - it might explain a couple of things...
 
Maybe that their code is a fish?
 
@CodyGray misogynists šŸ˜
 
@CodyGray or that they mispronounce carp!
 
9:31 AM
Just like people mispronounce "char"?
 
@manro be understanding - they might just need one
@CodyGray how do you mispronounce char?
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine byte
 
Is it pronounced as in "charred"/"charcoal", or as in "character"?
 
@RyanM good one xD
@CodyGray as in "charge", I suppose?
hmm... got me
 
Yeah, that'd be the same as "charred" and "charcoal".
But... if it's an abbreviation for "character" because it is literally the first 4 letters, why would you not pronounce it like "character"?
 
9:38 AM
to be honest, "tŹƒÉ‘ĖdŹ’" rolls of the tongue more easily than "Ėˆkar", so I guess that's why
 
Hm
 
on a related note, I held a misunderstanding on the pronunciation of nginx for years
 
en-jinx?
I have no actual idea how it's supposed to be pronounced
 
more like en-jin-ex is the correct one. I always thought it was, well, "nginx"
 
Oh, interesting.
"nginx" is not pronounceable, so that doesn't really clarify things...
It could be "winks", if you pronounce "ng" the way that it would be pronounced in a Vietnamese name ;-)
 
9:43 AM
@CodyGray a very accurate description indeed :)
 
I guess "engine X" makes some degree of sense.
Except... why spell it like an illiterate person?
 
yes, but imagine my surprise when I finally heard how is is supposed to be pronounced. Anoter pet peeve of mine is "se-que-l" instead of "es-qu-el"
 
"sequel". Not weird.
Weird is what you typed ("se-que-l") :-)
I can get behind either sequel (pronouncing it as a word) or S-Q-L (pronouncing it as an initialism). Either seems totally reasonable.
 
@CodyGray it's not weird, I just can't get used to pronouncing it that way
 
10:04 AM
Because you don't know what preceded it? :-)
 
query language, I presume? :)
 
@CodyGray All the cool kids are illiterate: Imgur (imager), Reddit (read it), Lyft (lift), Pushr (pusher), etc
 
Google (googol)...
 
Did you mean: kewl kids?
 
Kewl kds
 
10:11 AM
kidz?
I am bad at this.
 
šŸ¤­
 
 
2 hours later…
12:39 PM
Unhelpful flag of the day: "looks like spam"
 
@RyanM did it quack like spam?
 
Given that it was just "1234567890 zelle customer service number support number service number" (number changed) copy-pasted over and over, yeah I think it's spam and you can just use the spam flag.
 
12:57 PM
I expect some day there to be a flag "I called the number but it was a scam"
 
@VLAZ I did that! The number didn't even work :-(
in SO Close Vote Reviewers, 54 mins ago, by Ryan M
@Adriaan "The TextNow subscriber you're trying to reach is not available. Please leave your message after the tone."
 
Heh, the phone companies might also be blocking them as they are found.
Actually, when I think about it - the reason we're getting spam in waves might be that the service provider where the spamming application is hosted also eventually catches up and blocks them.
 
Where do spammers go to get lots of IPs...
botnets? open proxies? shady VPNs?
 
AFAIK: whatever they can get away with. Botnets are an option but also AFAIK, the spammers are rarely the same people who keep botnets. So, if they use a botnet, they'd have to hire it from somebody.
But I know that spammer and malicious actors also try to exploit legitimate services. Like leasing a bunch of AWS virtual machines, for example.
I'm not sure how viable Tor is for spammers but it can also give you IPs.
 
 
7 hours later…
7:42 PM
šŸ‘‹
 
7:55 PM
@CodyGray I normally default to "I don't know enough to understand it"
 
8:17 PM
@Turing85 Herr Meister, sind Sie hier?)
 
8:51 PM
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Oleg, specially for you: [lipstickalley.com/threads/…
It is interesting, what do you can say about it?
 
9:13 PM
@RyanM apparently, users get very defensive upon getting mod messages even if they weren't meant to indicate a grave offence :)
 
@RyanM Thanks for this. I ended up borrowing it.
 
@manro nothing, actually, nothing notable - vandalism is vandalism no matter the context. It does not change the simple fact that what my country is doing is horrible.
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Ukranian deeds in Donbas aren't horrible?
 
@manro you could make a good career in in my country's state media :)
There is one simple truth: there does not exist such a thing as justified war.
 
9:31 PM
@OlegValteriswithUkraine no-no, i don't want to be a media guy)
 
@manro you'd make a nice fit with those arguments, though
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine There are stone arguments, you know
 
stone-dead, yeah
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine I can understand that. I wouldn't get defensive necessarily, but I would take an email from a mod very seriously. My understanding is that emails are only sent out when it's a serious issue (e.g. I would expect that not doing exactly what the message says to be followed up by a suspension if I continued with the behaviour). Getting an email for something that's "not a big deal" seems odd, to say the least. How would one know which email messages are serious, and which aren't?
 
But really, Oleg, what do you will do after Russian victory? How will you react on this.
 
9:50 PM
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Had an incident like that recently
Re: comment noise, specifically, where the receiver felt it was better if a comment was left
A comment that's fundamentally noise
oh, the irony :')
 
@cigien those that contain "do not repeat this again!", I suppose :) I am not sure if there was a serious infraction in this particular case or not
@ZoestandswithUkraine did they try to defend leaving such comment(s)?
 
I don't remember entirely. They may have included their justification, but they were among the easier to deal with anyway
The main complaint there was the warning form
Which really ties back to mod messages being big and scary when on the receiving end, but /shrug
 
10:07 PM
@OlegValteriswithUkraine I thought you were referring to this recent meta post. The mod message says "Just flag as spam ..." and "Save your close votes for non-spam questions." which seems quite clear to me that the user shouldn't repeat such behaviour. I would assume that casting a CV on spam counts as a serious infraction precisely because it warranted a mod message.
 
That's also a new warning that's being used. With the ongoing and continued behavior of the support number spammers, it's starting to become a relatively big deal
 
So it is a serious thing? That's good, but Cody's comment on that post (unless I'm completely misreading it) suggests that the message is not something to be concerned about. I haven't followed up on the meta post as I do agree with the message, and don't want to muddy the waters, but I am confused by the comment.
 
That's not what I'm reading it as
It's a serious message being used, and it is a serious problem, but we haven't exactly suspended anyone over it. It's still just a standard warning to make sure spam posts don't go undetected because people close it instead of flagging
really depends on what type of serious you mean, actually
 
By "serious" I mean it warrants a suspension. Perhaps adding an official answer from a mod might be a good idea, otherwise there's going to be a meta post cribbing about it if/when a suspension is handed out. (There might be a meta post anyway, but mitigating it early on could help).
 
I have no idea if suspending over it is planned
The warnings alone emerged like, in the past two days or something
 
10:18 PM
Hmm, interesting. I'd assumed that warnings were only sent out for things that would warrant suspensions if repeated.
 
Not always. It has been used just to carry information to a receiver
Those use-cases are rare though
And typically never take the form of anything that can be templated
Though that's really down to the mod message system in general
Like, recently, someone used it to respond to a flag about a review suspension (not sure if automatic or manual off the top of my head), to deal with an appeal. That wasn't a warning though, tbf, but it's all piped through the same system
 
Ah, I see. I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for the clarification.
 
@cigien yeah, that one - I actually get a vibe that mod messages are going to become more loosely used (I may be wrong) and be still sent to prevent problematic behavior but will not always mean the message is sent in response to a serious offence (see mod messages to reviewers idea instead of review suspensions, for example)
 
Yeah, I like the idea of sending mod messages for bad reviews rather than outright suspensions. Seems like I was treating mod messages as uniformly "serious" when that's not necessarily always the case. TIL :)
 
most warnings do indeed mean "cease or else" though, but there's always exceptions
 
10:27 PM
I didn't get that impression from the text of that particular mod message at all.
 
Yeah, I'm going to personally treat any mod message I get with the utmost gravitas :)
 
I agree with cigien though, it may be helpful if a mod would address the mod piece of that question like why those messages have needed to be sent out. I could only address the parts of the process I do see.
 
You still should, to be fair, but not to the extent where you shiver in fear of being banned
 
@HenryEcker That it meant "cease or else"? Neither did I, but I don't trust myself to make that call if I get a message (inherent bias and all that jazz).
 
like in this case, you should still do what the message says even if it doesn't have an overhanging risk of a suspension
We still don't send mod messages for fun :p
 
10:31 PM
Fair enough.
 
@cigien well, I suppose they still are - however, it would be nice if the impression around getting a mod message changed a little towards "if it does not say 'stop, or else...', keep calm and carry on but make sure you take into account what was said there" - might save us some meta drama in the future
 
I'm surprised there aren't more complaints about the vote solicitation warnings
 
@cigien I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean. Are you saying that you would assume the worst if you were the one to receive the message vs being able to be more objective when reading a message to someone else?
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine There was one on MSE today. And the series last week on MSO wasn't enough for you? ;)
 
MSE doesn't count, there was like one on MSO that kinda exploded, but that's it
 
10:33 PM
@HenryEcker Yes, precisely.
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine apparently, there aren't as many who think this is a (a) change (b) that is harmful in policy as some paint it to be
 
Still though, there's a lot of pushback some days, including one person likely to cascade to a second suspension Soon:tm:
 
50% of this could be avoided if SE just dropped the accept BS metric
 
They have though
But there's a lot of issues in general
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine oh, I mean the checkmark too
 
10:37 PM
Some people read through previous questions to manually determine an accept rate. Others just push for the adrenaline
What would help, though, is a system-sided ban on thanks comments
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine could be as simple as moving the insta-flag regex to pre-post validation
 
Block comments with length under 35, warn for length under 100 (both lengths without counting the ping)
Length <35 isn't enough for 100% flag accuracy (particularly for the SEDE flaggers), but it's accurate enough if the +-1 block is good enough
 
I'd go for under 41 to be consistent with how insta-flagging works right now (I can imagine useful comments in under 41 char) + a conservative keyword blacklist.
 
Fair
In either case, though, a block/warning system should substantially reduce the amount of thanks comments posted daily, which in turn cuts through the reactive vote solicitation comments
 
yeah - in any case, any approach is better than none currently + relying on users to flag post factum
 
10:42 PM
With that single move, you probably remove around 500-1000 comments per day, possibly more.
Which means less manual work for us
 
plus not having users flag those comments manually will stop wasting their flag pools and time
 
I counted that in manual work for us
On most days, there's at least two users that flag comments from a SEDE query, and the bulk of them end up in the flag queue for us to deal with
I've yet to find a bad flag from those two in particular, so it's mostly just heating up the "delete" button :p
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine oh, I thought by "us" you meant " g mods" :)
 
I meant both :p
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine markdown, wtf? Oh, well
 
10:45 PM
Though to be fair, for some transition period, there's still going to be manual work. SE continues to hate anything involving the words "bulk" and "deletion", particularly when placed together, so there's still millions of comments that need manual flagging
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine how inclusive :)
 
But after that, fewer flags means less work for mods
The need for flags declining means less work for flaggers
The problem with that pipe dream is that it requires better comment moderation systems
And most likely, the entirety of SOCVR and SOBotics is going to be elected before that happens
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine why would you think that probably the largest IT resource on the planet could be heavily automated and be an exemplar of technological marvel? Nonsense
 
They've done it before, though
But comments are so third class citizens, that in spite of there being a lot of work to deal with them, we don't get any QOL tools or automation systems, particularly in the realm of blocking
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine guess that's a solution of sorts - just throw in more mods till it works
 
10:50 PM
I suppose. I find myself sifting through the comment section a lot at the moment
 
baby steps, @ZoestandswithUkraine - first, they need to figure how not to break the network on rollout
 
Largely hinging on the hope that I'll make a dent big enough to reduce long-term NLN flagging
@OlegValteriswithUkraine I feel like it hardly qualifies as baby steps
 
@ZoestandswithUkraine hope so - it would be nice to have this be automated, of course, but it seems that SE is clogged with all the big simultaneous projects they initiated (SG, Trending, JS rework, dealing with the aftermath of the redesign)...
 
I want to call the solution trivial, because it is. You add some server-sided validation and return an error message, and the validation is trivial. However, since it seems SE can't fix a function call that makes toasts, it seems that it isn't trivial
 
speaking of roadmaps... Has anyone seen the Q1 2022 roadmap anywhere?
 
10:57 PM
Q2, right?
 
Q1's missing too
 
Hm
Maybe they stopped
 
which is weird - it is supposed to be published on the blog (a rare actually useful thing on it)
oh, I might know my next MSE post
 
Hee hee
 
11:13 PM
either I am blind, or I just asked an uncomfortable question :)
 
@CodyGray So, this is going to happen. No more free azure credits next month.
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Well, that one I just declined with the standard "Using standard flags helps us prioritize problems and resolve them faster" message.
I'm generally in favor of custom flags that explain why something is potentially non-obviously spam, and was mildly salty when a non-SO mod declined one of mine, but "looks like spam" ain't it.
 
11:44 PM
yeah, "looks like spam" is quite unhelpful ("why did you not flag as such then?")
 

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