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12:00 PM
@ElectionBot alive?
 
I'm alive on electionbot.samliew.com, started on 2021-10-15 11:20:46Z with an uptime of 2381 seconds.
 
Who are the candidates
 
Currently there are 4 candidates: Zoe, Ryan M, Dharman, Shree
 
This is a tough election (fridge selection)
 
did you mean selection?
 
12:05 PM
Who will be the survivor
 
@OlegValter Typo yes :)
Wonder which fridge is cleaner and bigger, and colder.
That's the fridge I'd pick
 
@SamuelLiew the coldest one, duh
 
Gotta go now bye!
 
12:50 PM
@ElectionBot say all candidates are great!
 
all candidates are great!
 
Why are there comments on the candidate posts that reference a deleted meta-post?
 
Bwah?
 
Maybe it''s a for users>10K election..
 
1:10 PM
Perhaps somebody with >10k rep could provide a screenshot of the deleted meta Q. If he knew which one it was. Because he's currently in a meeting and can't check all the comments but can still just take a quick screenshot.
 
@VLAZ There are lots and lots on links in that post.. should that >10K user also provide with a list of those? :)
 
I suppose the >10k user will provide screenshots for any link he is given. Just a guess.
 
@VLAZ Ehh.. not really. How do you know what something links to if it's titled? Or if half of the link is hidden?
I mean the easy solution is to not have the post deleted, no?
 
You could also pay 10$ at 0.1¢ per rep to get 10000 rep.
 
1:17 PM
I don't much care for me. I have a screen shot of the post already. Still on my todo list to accumulate a list of all the links in it :/ My point is that most of the users that are going to vote will not have proper access to this.
 
@Zoe Oh, wow! I'll definitely keep it in mind. Anybody saying that earning rep is hard has no excuse any more. ;)
 
Zoe
Ikr!
 
And now for something completely different - The election is in the nomination phase, and currently there are 4 candidates. I can answer commonly-asked questions about elections (type @ElectionBot help for more info).
 
1:43 PM
@Shree No, they just buy services other people made and then shut them down after 5 years of being in beta
:-)
 
@TylerH Agree.
 
 
1 hour later…
2:57 PM
some games are more popular during EA than after official release
 
Yep. It's been said before but games really only have one release and they better make it good. Moving from EA to finished product isn't something many people pay much attention to. The first release is the release.
 
But enough about Cyberpunk 2077...
 
Heh
 
more thinking, the first subnautica, satisfactory,
satisfactory hasn't left EA yet, but i'm betting when it does it'll follow a similar trajectory
one final flurry of activity then nothing
 
Almost all games follow the same trajectory, EA just shifts the 'release' date forward on the curve. It's an interesting case study because imo it mostly highlights that players are not interested in 'finished product' games (in genres with EA) nearly as much as playing around with the concept of the games themselves.
Those games probably wouldn't have gotten a better release out of EA. EA even alleviates some of the expectations that a game is bug-free, which will never be true even of a finished product. So as a way of managing player expectations just calling your game "early access" even if it isn't, is becoming a smart move.
 
3:03 PM
for me, it's a case of... hey there's something new, let me go play through the whole thing again
once it's launched... there's rarely anything new added later
oxygen not included has been an exception, they never stopped
 
A quick message from my sponsors: The election is in the nomination phase, and currently there are 4 candidates. I can answer commonly-asked questions about elections (type @ElectionBot help for more info).
 
@VLAZ well, No Man's Sky and Stellaris and Rimworld and may other games beg to differ :-)
 
There are plenty of games that add more things after the full release. Path of Exile starts two (or three?) leagues a year, and each of those adds two more major mechanics to the game that are folded into the main game. Slay the Spire added a whole new character to go from 3 to 4. There are also smaller periodic updates. Kenshi also gets content updates but more rarely nowadays.
 
Also, unfortunately, Star Wars Galaxies (in the opposite direction)
I wish Path of Exile had a bit better UI. The sheer scope of its class system is unprecedented
but it's very repetitive to me
and the UI makes it hard for me to want to spend time playing
 
the new passive tree is a massive improvement
(coming next friday)
 
3:13 PM
To be fair, many of those games have a good reason to assume they haven't fully captured their market audience. Ex.: NMS had such a poor release that many of the folks who might have wanted / enjoyed it definitely don't have it. Additional development time can bring in new sales...
 
@TylerH Funnily, I was thinking of NMS as I wrote my message. And figured it didn't break the pattern. It got "redone" but to almost no fanfare. Just the occasional person going "It's actually better now"
 
a lot of the important things that you had to travel across the tree for are now accessible all over the place
not all of them, but a lot of them
NMS actually has quite a large following, i still pick it up every year or so
 
@VLAZ Eh, I disagree. NMS was really really ridiculed at launch because of all the apparently broken promises
but just recently it finally went 'mostly positive' on Steam, years and years after release
due to constant major (and all free) updates
you ask anyone about NMS a week after release, they'd say "eh it's fun for a few hours, but nothing it promised is included really besides procedural planet generation", but if you ask anyone about it now, they'd say something completely different
it still falls flat after a few scores of hours playing (IMHO), but there's sooo much more to do now than there was at release
 
now, i see it as a gathering game.
 
I enjoy the base building aspect of it
 
3:16 PM
exploration is still there, but it's also still procedurally generated
For me... procedurally generated feels... not the same in terms of exploration
 
so the recent addition of settlement creation and quests was pretty neat
 
@TylerH My point is that it didn't have a "second" release. And the initial one greatly diminished what the game could achieve. Improving a game is not a "do over".
 
just wish we could choose how to place the buildings there
 
Compared to, exploring wow for the first time back in vanilla, or exploring skyrim, etc
 
@VLAZ Well, yeah that's true. No game has a second release
 
3:17 PM
a world someone crafted, rather than one that's randomly generated
 
except Skyrim
which has a new release every 1.5 years it seems
 
the new one is... scary
 
yeah I am a little confused about it
 
gonna break literally all mods because they're moving to a newer compiler
 
it's going to overwrite the existing base game?
 
3:18 PM
yea
it's an update
not a new release
 
Well, chances are the mods will still work just fine
just throw an 'unsupported' error
 
it won't
 
is the creation kit getting an upgrade as well?
 
they rely on finding specific things within the code at specific locations, and the things won't be there anymore
VS 2017 to 2019
 
Knowing Bethesda, I doubt mods will "just work".
 
3:19 PM
@VLAZ Well that's a Feature(TM) :-P
Have they given a justification for why they are doing this?
like what's the benefit for them
 
no
lol
also not responding to the community outcry
 
It really is... keeping the community engaged. Also, trying to push the Creation Club (or whatever it was called).
 
@VLAZ the thing they shuttered after like 2 weeks half a decade ago?
because selling mods is a dumb frigging idea
 
well, it's still there, they still add dumb stuff to it occationally
but you can get a lot of the stuff free, if you wait long enough and check often
those mods though... aren't really that interesting
 
@TylerH Pretty sure it's still a thing. I played Skyrim last year, I think (or two years ago), and there was ads for it in-game.
 
3:22 PM
survival mode is the only one i'd suggest getting
 
As in, the main menu.
 
So it looks like it's VS 2015 to VS 2019
and it also looks like it is just the scripting stuff that is gonna change
 
Which probably means SKSE doesn't work. Which means other mods dependent on it don't work. Which is big.
 
mods made entirely within the Creation Kit don't seem like they'll be affected
Well yeah but using SKSE is always a buyer beware thing
 
skse is where all the good stuff is
 
3:23 PM
because you're using essentially a 3rd party rootkit to expand functionality
The vast majority of people running mods for Skyrim probably don't actually use SKSE
as powerful and awesome as the script extenders have always been for MW, OB, and SK
 
@TylerH How about mods made in Charcoal? Or in SOCVR? Or in SOBotics?
 
@AdrianMole They'll have to run for re-election
 
@TylerH While true, it's the cornerstone of many a mod. And it's been the case for ages - ever since Morrowind. Bethesda just never formalised it. Because it's easier to let the community fix their products.
 
or risk being absorbed by Todd Howard
 
Sounds familiar...
 
3:25 PM
Members of charcoal are under a lot of pressure which turns them into diamonds
10
 
@VLAZ I don't have any kind of numbers of the % of mods that require the Script Extender for each game, but I am betting it is far less than half
For example I have about 80 mods that I have used for ~10 years, none of them require SKSE
 
skyui is likely among the most used skse requiring mods
 
Oh for sure
 
i personally never use it when setting up my own mods
but lately i've been playing enderal, which comes with it
 
I tried it out a bit I think, but then moved to Special Edition and forgot about it
 
3:28 PM
hopefully enderal isn't affected by this, since it's kinda it's own steam game
 
I also suspect it's gonna be an update to the Special Edition, not the normal one, but that's not really clear yet from the few articles I've read
Yep, this post mentions SE, and native code, and the suspected reason (that user looks like an SKSE dev) reddit.com/r/skyrimmods/comments/q6czcc/…
Apparently the SE modding community refers to the non-SE version as "oldrim" these days? lol
 
@TylerH The MMO?
 
@Machavity Yes
 
yea, oldrim
 
@TylerH Yeah.
 
3:32 PM
the version of skyrim that can't handle larger mods due to 32bit
 
when they released their big patch it killed the game @Machavity I forget what the version was. 1.8 or something
@KevinB Yeah, I don't find much difference honestly between the two versions. The original was always beautiful and stable for me
some nicer visuals in some cases
 
@TylerH Yeah, I played Everquest around that time and... they really dropped a lot of balls on SWG. They had to do that massive retool
 
but my real gameplay hours are in the original Skyrim version
 
i'd like to get a good christmas fallout 4 modset together, but the last few times i tried i ended up with gamebreaking bugs that i couldn't get around
mostly, the cell respawning issue, where enemies respawn from their corpses when you re-enter a cell you just left, with a new set of inventory in addition to their last
kinda breaks the game, because it means you get so much more xp and level so much faster
 
I'm excited at the prospect of getting to play fallout 3 for the first time
now that it will work on Windows 10
 
3:42 PM
i tried new vegas last year, didn't really... do much for me
wanted to play melee, but was never able to get my gear/skills etc to a point where i could do it effectively before finishing the game
so i was just a super suboptimal rifleman
 
The current game I'm trying out is Medieval Dynasty. Just left Early Access but still kinda feels pretty Beta-y
missing some big QoL features at the moment
 
@KevinB Melee in NV is not great. You can spec it right and play it but IMO, it's just unsatifying gameplay. Although, it does mean you get easier time in some areas. However, I think shooty weapons are better.
 
that's kinda the conclusion i came to
i was able to melee weak stuff, and eventual rad scorpions by the end
but nothing relevant
 
NV has an issue (well, same as F3) that you cannot plan your perks effectively. Not without looking up what you can get. Because the only perks you are shown are the ones you qualify for, so it's hard to determine what to go for if you cannot plan on which stats to get in order to get a relevant perk. There are several perks for melee but might require strength or endurance to get.
 
yeah, i planned it before i began
 
3:48 PM
Same with the rest of the perks, really. Even if you want to do a different build, you won't know if you're one point off a perk.
 
i was so weak at the end that i just stealthboy'd to the control room and ended it, i was done trying to make melee work
 
Just wanted to stop in and do my yearly request to nominate @rene as moderator
3
 
@KyleWilliamson Already done ;)
 
Hahah wow. I missed that, congrats @rene. lol
Ohhh that was on Stack Apps. Time for Stack Overflow :)
 
I'm happy to suspend y'all over on Stack Apps ...
4
 
3:58 PM
All of us? Well, I guess you cannot really focus on just some.
 
True that. it is blurry when I click those buttons
 
Hello and welcome to the election night special! The election is in the nomination phase, and currently there are 4 candidates. I can answer commonly-asked questions about elections (type @ElectionBot help for more info).
 
We already know Dharman represents the Silly Party
 
4:54 PM
Who's candidacy are we expecting today?
 
Rob
o/
 
silence ...
 
Rob
@rene Are you going to break the silence? :)
 
I feel more like a news reporter that comments on what is on the screen ....
 
Rob
Haven't you ever watched live news reports when nothing happens? The reporter always has something to contribute :)
 
5:05 PM
Yeah, 2 hours of let me summarize what we know so far: we know nothing
 
Rob
@rene They don't know nothing, from reports it's alleged the offender is a human doing something or other
 
Or it is the weather-anchor in pouring rain forecasting it is wet today...
 
5:39 PM
🚽
 
6:16 PM
@Scratte It wasn't deleted when the comment was posted. It's the recent-est one about SO being more toxic. You know the one.
 
You mean the one where everyone else was being nice?
 
Yes. Except Dharman, apparently, according to the commenter.
 
I read it more as, it's continuing the conversation, and they'd expect a mod to do the opposite... which is a troubling precedent imo
 
Who was being nice? Did I miss another announcement?
 
@CodyGray It's hard to check who is right, no?
 
6:24 PM
I am nothing but trouble
 
Given that it's deleted, the comments mentioning it in the election should probably go too, since it's no longer backed by evidence everyone can reach
 
Right.. we should delete more stuff. That's the way to go.
 
;)
 
I hear you
 
why delete stuff
 
6:26 PM
@Good It's what we do.. we wait until people put in effort and then we delete it. Especially on meta.
 
@Good Because there are questions that are beyond fixing. e.g. stackoverflow.com/questions/69580670/…
 
tis the only way to keep the toxic argument supported
 
There are answers that aren't answers at all
We are being toxic for cleaning up
 
@Dharman I mean that should be deleted
 
@Dharman But that's not even comparable.
 
6:27 PM
comparable to what?
 
Discussions on meta
 
Frankly, that discussion on Meta was beyond repair too
 
No. It was over.. but had a lot of useful things in it.
 
@Scratte Not really
 
Frankly, my Dear Dharman, I don't give a Meta.
 
6:29 PM
OP was being stubborn and rude and that was causing other people to get upset. The comments should have been deleted, but that would only make the author more certain that we are toxic
It was a little useful, but mainly it was aimed at a single person
 
did someone ask is stackoverflow toxic?
 
I did not vote to delete it, but other users decided that it was time to let it die
 
@KevinB Yeah, it makes little sense. They seem to be saying that the job of moderators is not telling people when they're wrong. But...
 
Some of the best modern medicines are actually toxic.
 
Maybe we can undelete it.
 
6:30 PM
e.g. alcohol
 
Hic!
 
Some people are wanting to reopen it. That seems... bunk.
 
@Cody You can put an undelete-plz request in that other room, if you like.
 
I put one into my browser
 
@CodyGray I think some of those reopen votes were meant to be un-delete votes ;)
 
6:31 PM
@AdrianMole not for Meta posts. that room doesn't do Meta posts.
 
Nah, you can't vote to reopen a deleted question.
 
@CodyGray Yes you can.
 
they said the other day that you can
 
@RyanM Oh yeah. Never mind. Cody will just have to wait for Dharman to get elected, so he can undelete it.
 
Wow
Well, that's useless
 
6:33 PM
We did an experiment in SOCVR, some time back. You can actually reopen a deleted post.
 
And... yeah. Someone... they did both.
What the heck, it went into a reopen review queue after it was deleted?
 
I can't remember why we did that experiment, but I suspect a three-legged puppy was somehow involved.
 
They really broke everything with this review queue redesign, eh?
 
so it's undeleted now?
 
eh, i wouldn't say everything
 
6:34 PM
Yes, it's undeleted now
But not reopened
 
the non-sticky header userscript still works
 
I still need to go through and do something about it...
Another time
 
but their answer remains deleted
 
That's... not good.
 
The Reopen queue (on Main) is quite small, these days. Maybe the system just needs to put some arbitrary posts (that have been messed with by mods) into the queue?
 
6:36 PM
You know what, I've changed my mind. That whole thing is a trashcan fire. It doesn't need to be anything but deleted.
 
nice
 
Grrrr..
 
Scratte, take screenshots faster
 
There are too many problems there.
 
was gonna say
 
6:37 PM
i just want to see the question
 
mods are being toxic
 
gonna need a lot of deleting
and once done, nothing useful will be left
 
Asker is complaining that their point of view was misrepresented, they've got an answer posted that calls out me, I feel like if I leave that visible, I need to make some sort of a response...
It's just... Ugh.
@Dharman He's already got one
 
@Scratte yo thanks
 
6:39 PM
Without the revision history, you miss some context.
 
"Come and see the violence inherent in the system! HELP, HELP, I'M BEING REPRESSED!"
 
@CodyGray Yes.. that's why it would be nice if it wasn't deleted.
 
Only "nice" in the sense of "easier for someone to follow along with what happened"
 
yea
 
Does the repetition of "help" make that a quadratic repression?
 
6:40 PM
But... then you have to prove that that's valuable
 
tldr, someone asked a... unclear question on SO, a regular user left a comment asking for clarification, turned out the question really was as simple as it looked, but the op took offense to the resulting dupe closure and comments.
 
I mean, if you're going to get bitten by a wasp, it's nice if there is some ice nearby to keep down the swelling.
But if a mod deletes the wasp...
 
I'm curious if the user really does believe what they're stating, or if they're just trying to save face at this point
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
@KevinB Yes. If they wanted to save face, they would have left my edits in place and just gone with the flow.
 
@CodyGray Thanks.. next time we'll just close again your chat-message here.
 
6:42 PM
I'm happy to just delete it next time
 
why we are talking about it in election chat room
 
Cuz it was raised in a comment on a nomination.
 
Did you have more questions about fridges?
 
@CodyGray fridge?
 
We talked about fridges earlier in here... several packages back on the transcript now.
 
6:44 PM
@Good Someone said that as a candidate I should encourage such behaviour
or something like that
 
oh
i came late i think
 
What good is a fridge without beer in it?
 
@AdrianMole A fridge with frozen beer in it?
 
Ooh - Beer ice lollies!
 
Rob
@AdrianMole My company when it was a startup went so far as to have a facebook page for our beer fridge
 
6:45 PM
In other news, I am still contemplating what to do about Syncfusion tag
 
Rob
Whose status updates consisted of the new beers stocked
 
You can't decide whether to sync it or fuse it?
 
At the moment, I am watching the tag and editing each new answer
 
what's wrong with it
 
Is that the one with the staff "greetings"?
 
6:46 PM
I wish I could say that I would be able to do more about it as a mod, but that's not the case
Yes
 
Add to your edit-bot: if tag==syncfusion then delete last 3 lines
 
At least it doesn't start with a religious mantra.
 
the image is blur i.stack.imgur.com/zfO8d.jpg
 
It's what now?
 
I don't know how to suggest disambiguations on it
@Scratte It's close to being one
I remember the boilerplate off-by-heart
 
6:47 PM
@Good I'd recommend opening it on your desktop or something, and zooming in. It's much better quality than that.
 
I only see a user who has posted 3 answers, all of which had a signature, now edited out by you. But, it's only 3 answers from that same brand-new user.
Quality is still not great. Sorry about that. I used what Chrome's dev tools gave me. I don't know of any other way to screenshot a full page.
I convinced myself that the quality of the screenshot matches with the quality of the Q&A.
 
They have a whole team of users. They treat SO like ticketing system. They post NAAs and each answer is full of noise.
When posting solutions they sometimes post ZIP files that are inaccessible
 
Yikes.
 
@Good You know.. with any question, it's a very good idea to say exactly what image is blurry. "yxnYm.jpg" is not very.. helpful.
 
6:49 PM
@Scratte You could even say that the problem description is... blurry?
 
if you zoom out, it'll be less blurry
 
That whole Q&A...
 
@Scratte ah its the one you posted the answers one i.stack.imgur.com/yxnYm.jpg
 
If it's the Answer to the post that I posted in an image before, then I'm sorry.. I split it because the image was too large to upload. But it's a lot less blurry on my screen than on yours.
 
@Scratte yea I loaded it on my phone, it is fine on my pc
I thought it would be less blury on my phone
 
6:51 PM
 
"Based on your query, we understand you have facing an issue" :-(
So many things wrong with that. So, so many.
 
just a bunch of words that say nothing when put together
 
Also, I think that sometimes they just copy previous replies and mess up the formatting in the process. e.g. stackoverflow.com/a/67363010/1839439
 
it's a comment, "Please provide a MRE"
 
I have been at it for 2 weeks now I think
 
6:54 PM
Ugh
Delete the whole company
 
Question asker: Uses a collectionview. Answer: "We have determined that you can use a collectionview to solve your problem"
 
If your public support looks like that, your product sucks and you should be embarrassed
 
Rob
Problem is they have next to no competitors
 
bootstrap?
 
Rob
Reverse engineering a product without being sued takes a bit of finesse
 
6:56 PM
 
> Trusted by the world's leading companies
 
:|
 
@Dharman I recall a meta post (it may be in an un-deleted state, but I can't be bothered to track it down, because it's a waste of time) where one should use the contact us form and ask Stack to contact the company.
 
Yes, about all a moderator could do would be to contact the company
I sorta doubt that'll have any effect.
They appear to have no shame.
 
6:58 PM
@CodyGray The other company had an answer robot..
 
Oh come on...
Thank you, anonymous moderator.
 
@Scratte You mean Google? What'd they do to Jon?!
 

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