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8:00 PM
@Catija At the very least, I feel like the difference in messaging leads to conflict between askers who see one piece of advice (ask a new question), and other users who are being given a different piece of advice (edit the question). So people get annoyed when the question is re-asked, and then the asker gets annoyed when the new question is marked as a duplicate of the original.
 
@Catija Well, the two new queues and the new Late Answers all have remember to vote accordingly on the "Looks OK" label.
 
@KevinB Oh, you mean the "leave a comment if you can help the poster improve" or whatever?
 
... I think. The new ones do, anyway.
 
yea, i don't think context-aware popups like that are really a big deal
 
... Or, at least, "First questions" does.
 
8:01 PM
@AdrianMole Ah, yeah, and that's the wording we chose specifically - "vote accordingly" as opposed to "don't forget to upvote" :D
 
@RyanM and then they take to Meta where we beat them to death gently reprimand them for following exactly what the notice said
 
Heh. Yeah - I've 'deliberately' misunderstood that and downvoted once or twice. :)
 
certainly annoying to an extent, but it being up top rather than in my way means once i'm done needing to see it, it's not impeding me in any way
 
Yeah - Maybe a "consider upvoting this question as well" somewhere in the current "Reopen" confirmation popup.
 
@RyanM Yeah, that's a really fair point. We've historically argued that people should try to fix existing posts rather than create new ones, so this is a big departure from that and I don't think it came with sufficient messaging or justification to help y'all understand the decision... heck, I don't even particularly understand it, though I did talk to Shog about it at one point. In my mind, it merely leads to faster q-bans.
 
8:03 PM
... or even conditional on whether there are downvotes.
 
^
exactly what i was about to say, lol. Effectively, if you're reopening something, and it's currently negative, you're suggesting it shouldn't be deleted. leaving it negative is counter productive
 
Oh, like a "This post is negatively scored, if you think it should be reopened, consider upvoting it to help others recognize that it's a good question now" or something?
 
Does Smokey think that's spam because it talks about spam?
@Catija That sound about right. Why would I vote to reopen if I didn't think it was a worthy question?
Although, downvoting and close-voting don't really represent the same issues.
 
Yep. I think that's worthy of putting on the post about reopening, too. I'm happy to take stuff internally but those posts are (potentially) a more useful way of having them see it. If I say "I talked to some people in chat and they said ____" that doesn't necessarily get a ton of interest but if they see an answer with a bunch of support on one of their posts, it may get more attention.
Not that people don't listen to me - they do... It's just a matter of the number of things they get and the number of directions it's coming from.
 
@Catija is this the sort of thing that's best to make its own question or an answer on one of the project posts?
(unrelated: @IanCampbell re: meta post, if you're curious, I flagged the comment around 17 hours after it was posted)
 
8:09 PM
For now, since there's still review going on, I'd put it here - meta.stackexchange.com/questions/369013/… once the discussion is considered "closed" I'd likely create a FR for it.
 
My worry is that there are too many answers there for any new ones to get notable community traction
 
i mean
there's a room of people here
 
Lisa put tomorrow (10th) as the last day for posting FRs as answers. I'll consider it and maybe post it separately over the weekend.
 
@Calculuswhiz You appear to have unintentionally linked an answer, rather than the question. Also the question has a bounty, so we can't close it here.
 
@RyanM Notification came too late. Thanks for the info.
 
8:16 PM
@RyanM And the question can't be close-voted as it has an active bounty.
 
So I have. Sorry!
 
17 hours is plenty of time. I want to write an answer agreeing with you. But I'm afraid of meta.
 
... or can it. I still see the close option.
 
@IanCampbell haha...well, my question's positively voted, at least... :-) honestly this was one of the few times where I posted on meta where I was unsure what the reaction was going to be.
 
I had the Roomba argument in my head even before I read your comment. And I had a screenshot with the link on the ask question UI highlighted, but then I realized you already addressed that.
 
8:18 PM
@AdrianMole I don't know. Unfortunately, I'm out of close votes. I can try in a couple hours.
 
@Calculuswhiz actually it appears to do the bounty check before the "do you have close votes?" check. It can't be close-voted.
@IanCampbell drat, do I need to ask less detailed questions so they're easier to answer? ;-)
 
@Calculuswhiz Nope! This question has an open bounty and cannot be closed
 
No close votes on bountied questions. I've flagged a few really bad questions that were protected by bounties and had them closed by mods.
 
That one maaaaybe could be edited into a "reasons for doing one vs. the other" question that's not opinion-based.
 
Got it. Thanks. @Catija, can you please remove my last cv-pls? chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/52995821#52995821
 
8:21 PM
Heh. Not sure Catija is a Room Owner.
... but she likely has powerz.
 
I think you're looking for @NathanOliver :-)
 
Oh, I saw the italics and diamond, so I assumed.
 
Too many of our ROs have diamonds, it's causing confusion!
 
All mods are also considered RO's, so their names are also italicized.
 
Anyone have a list of what authors see when their questions are closed? As mentioned in this blog? stackoverflow.blog/2019/12/05/…
 
8:23 PM
@NathanOliver That seems...arguably wrong, honestly. Even though they have RO powers by virtue of their modship.
 
@Calculuswhiz Sorry. I'm just an infiltrator. I don't actually know what you're asking me for. 🤣
 
hehe
 
@IanCampbell here you are. Perks of having a single closed question ;-)
 
@Calculuswhiz done
 
@Catija Yeah, I got confused. My bad.
 
8:25 PM
Part of me doesn't want it reopened now, since it's positively scored anyway and comes in handy for things like this...
 
And post authors also see the new stuff about it being in the reopen review, and the outcome of that review if it stays closed.
 
I think what they see is a little different depending on the close reason, right? I guess it doesn't matter because it doesn't appear to have a how to ask link.
 
I looked at one of my duplicate closed questions on MSE earlier today and was surprised by how prominent the delete button was in the post notice. Considering that upvotes duplicates can have value, making deletion so visible seems to run counter to our practice.
 
I feel like when someone voted to close my meta question as a duplicate, I got a private post notice even when it was still open. Does that happen for other close reasons? I know I'm asking the wrong crowd here.
 
It only happens for duplicates due to the comment created when the close vote happens.
 
8:34 PM
That makes some sense at least, since you can accept the duplicate target.
 
Oh. Post notice. Huh. I forgot about that.
I was thinking about notifications.
 
Oh right, I've actually seen that too, because of Meta dupes. I guess I do have other closed questions, just not on SO... I forgot about that. One of them I even closed myself via accepting the dupe.
 
The button is prominent because you should delete it and repost the same question
8
 
@Dharman thwack
 
@Dharman ..... ouch
 
8:37 PM
i mean
it makes sense
 
This situation is a bit comical. The people closing questions have no idea what it's actually like to experience closed questions.
3
 
comical... but expected
 
I have closed questions, I even closed some of them
 
i don't think i do
 
So.... you're saying that everyone in here should go ask a bad question to have it closed? Seems like an awesome idea!
 
8:39 PM
but if i do it was a loooooooong time ago
 
@KevinB the popup to remind me to vote on questions is really annoying on other sites
 
i get it on MSE
 
Sorry, I can't help it that this is RPG.SE or SciFi.SE and there are always going to be 5 answers per question
 
pushing for 2k to make it go away again
 
@TylerH Ah yes, the "you just voted on fifteen answers reporting bugs on a new feature" popup
 
8:41 PM
but also... the #1 reason i don't participate elsewhere is i can't... participate the way i do on SO
i can't downvote, i can't close vote, i can't edit without review,
i can understand why that is, the norms there aren't teh same as SO
 
@IanCampbell Eh, I think it's pretty clear from all the posts on Meta about it
 
but it's still a barrier i'd rather just not deal with
 
@KevinB other sites are weird
 
coming across a clearly bad answer and not being able to downvote it is just awful
 
or not being able to flag
 
8:43 PM
Yeah, the "thanks! we recorded your downvote but won't actually count it" message makes me sad (though I understand it)
oof, yes, the lack of flagging
 
I think I've only ever run out of flags on another site once...after someone posted like...12 spam posts.
 
like, i'm researching a problem, come across an answer from google on unix.se, and the answer is demonstratably wrong
can't do anything but comment
 
I can vote to close on Medical Sciences and can't edit people's terrible typos and spelling mistakes. Beta sites... right?
 
Could do something like the association bonus if we're awarding privileges on experience - if you need 50 edits approved on a single site to get the edit privileges, maybe having the privileges on one site means you only need 10 on a second site?
 
Yes, that would be great.
 
8:45 PM
I also miss seeing deleted posts when reviewing in Charcoal. That one could probably safely just be given with the "mod tools association bonus."
 
@Catija speaking of merit-based... would've to see one main thing gated by merit/activity cross-network rather than per-site permissions:

1. MSE rep should be replaced with your overall network-rep (association bonuses excluded). Someone has 2k on 5 diff sites, they should have 10k on MSE... or at least the rep of their 1 highest rep-site.
I do love the idea of stuff like "hey, you have 15,000 helpful flags on one site, maybe we should let you have 100 flags on this site too" or similar functions
 
yeah, I hate getting rep on MSE. It actually deters me from participating there
I don't want rep on MSE. It's pointless for me
 
Seems silly too considering it used to be rep-less when it was all part of MSO
 
MSE has made good use of bounties, though, I think.
 
It's useful for bounty-ing answers, right? (Oops, Ryan beat me)
 
8:49 PM
If we're making MSE feature requests: remove the rep penalty for downvoting answers like on every other Meta site.
 
why do you need to bounty answers on MSE?
 
We've got super down votes, gotta have super upvotes!
 
@RyanM ...actually if this hasn't been proposed already (surely it must have...) I might propose it.
 
You'll take my MSE rep from my cold, dead hands.
 
@Dharman It's often used to get attention for old feature requests.
 
8:51 PM
heck... apply that network-wide
fix both problems
 
@RyanM If it has, I can't find it. Bit surprised.
 
@RyanM Really? I mostly just see it used by people who want to highlight an answer criticizing something the company did...
@RyanM just edit the post; the Q or any answer
 
Here's the thing. If we let rep from the sites be rep on MSE, it'd essentially be MSO. I really don't think it makes any sort of sense to have people with a million SO rep look like experts on MSE.
2
 
it's less about the rep, and more about the privileges, at least for me
 
^
@Catija but it's not MSO, it's MSE. It's the network meta site... if the concern about MSE essentially being MSO if you used the highest rep from another site, then... maybe we need to do a much better job at telling people to go to MSE instead of MSO when they have network-wide bug reports/questiosn
 
8:55 PM
@TylerH It looks like... only one of the ten bounties is griping about what the company did. Which isn't too bad. But also that's more active bounties than I expected, so perhaps it's not as effective at getting attention as I may have thought.
 
but if not for privileges, what good is the rep
 
Because it sounds like "different rep pool" is the only thing separating MSE from MSO when it should be "the content"
(cross-site dupes would help tremendously with that whole "network content should go on MSE, not MSO" problem, but I think y'all are working on that already)
 
Can you get answer-ban on MSO?
 
at what point do you start seeing question-limiting notifications?
when you attempt to post a question?
when you've reached a limit?
 
9:02 PM
@KevinB this
 
i ask because if the criteria solely looked at my questions in their current state, i'm likely at the 1 per 6 months point
 
wow uh. You should open the ask question page. I'm quite curious if you're q-banned.
 
@AdrianMole I prefer to go the opposite way: give more privileges based on gold badges. If someone misuses the tools, just smack them. But those moderators have to really back up their actions.
 
@Braiam Imagine if rather than being based on gold badges for specific tags, it were based on merit in handling curation tasks well. Such as if you earned a 2-close-vote hammer or something after [some curation milestone that's hard to game by reviewing poorly].
We'd certainly be more effective here :-)
 
there's no notice on the ask question page or the review page
but i also didn't actually try to submit a question
would hate to... post a fake question
 
9:11 PM
@KevinB On the other hand, we know that answers have some small effect on the post ban, and while it's known to not be much, you have over 2300 of them...
@KevinB you shouldn't need to actually submit it, at least based on that MSE answer...
Time to post a "Why am I not question banned?" meta post? ;-)
 
in that case, i'm probably not qbanned
;)
 
Too bad there's no What can I do when not getting "We are no longer accepting questions/answers from this account"? canonical...
 
@TylerH So.. if a user downvotes an Answer on meta.stackexchange, they lose reputation on the other site? :D
 
I know they don't go around telling people the secret sauce, but seeing a lot of moderate rep users with a bunch of terribly scored questions leaves me to suspect that answer score does influence you question ban.
 
Add a new, self only, "Account Health" tab where you can go to see metrics on your account related to question/answering limiting
 
9:14 PM
@IanCampbell They've said that it does a little bit. Tyler linked it...somewhere.
 
with a link to see all deleted question/answers you've posted for convenience when qbanned
aka transparency, and a place to inform the user how climb out of that hole
 
The opacity of question bans is one of the most frustrating things about this site. And I've only ever asked 4 questions!
 
but, just making a new page every time there's an issue isn't a great way of solving problems
 
well, technically, i'm... not restricted from posting a question
until i post one
even if i am qbanned
because i haven't asked one in the past 6 months
 
9:18 PM
Yeah but you should at least be receiving the warning. Unless of course it's broken again.
 
We can't report bugs if we don't know how it works...
I guess that's one way to keep the angry mob away from Meta.
 
Which it was, for over a year, because none of the high-rep users who report such things on meta noticed its absence, because none of them are q-banned...
 
@Catija I have to hard disagree with the entirety. Nobody should be thinking "this question is so bad, this person should never be allowed to ask a question again". They should also not be thinking "this post has -7 score, I shouldn't add one more". What they actually should be thinking is "how I evaluate this content, good, bad or meh?"
And vote for that.
 
@Scratte No, there would be no rep gain or loss for voting on MSE; it would behave like a meta site.
 
i think that could work, if privileges were moved to a merit based system
at that point, the rep you have on site X Y or Z wouldn't give you more influence on MSE than users on SO would have
i said that backwards, but i think i made my point clear enough
 
9:21 PM
@Braiam But the problem with that is that a terrible post that's shown to 30 people ends up with a worse score than an equally terrible post that's shown to 3 people. I try to look at the content and say "is the score reflective of the content's quality?" and vote based on that (with the exception that I won't upvote a bad question just because its score is undeservedly low, or downvote a good post that's "overrated").
 
@RyanM That would be dangerous. Despite I believing that some people just gamed the system and got privileges, that is because the quality of the content we allow here and our lack of actual enforcement of quality standards, not because the system is loopsided.
@RyanM Deal with the post. Don't think about the person.
 
@Catija It doesn't have to be a bad Question. Good ones are closed too. I remember one in particular that was posted by a regular in here. It was closed, and it shouldn't have been. I used trickery to get it reopened. It took time and effort.. and it seemed a lot more than the time and effort used to closed it.
 
my most upvoted answer is on a post that was -7 when I posted the answer. I'm among the downvoters, i thought (and still think) it's an awful, useless question showcasing a common type of question that interviewers ask that IMO is an awful way of handling interviewing... but it's popular, i guess because a lot of interviewers do these kinds of things?
i answered it due to peer pressure
 
@Braiam Sorry, perhaps I was unclear: nothing about my rating of post content involves looking at the person. I'm judging the post on its content and current score, and seeing if it needs votes based on that. If a mediocre post that I'd downvote from 0 is already at -3, I won't cast another downvote. If a mediocre post that I'd upvote from 0 is already at +1000, I won't cast another upvote.
 
@KevinB Then it's useful, no?
 
9:24 PM
by some measurements
 
It it's helping a lot of people, then I'd say it's useful.
 
i dunno. on one hand it in a sense diffuses this particular question, in that it informs a lot of people how to solve it, but it also legitimizes those kinds of interview questions
 
@KevinB If the answer to your interview question is trivially findable on SO, it makes it much less useful as an interview question, because people will have seen it and recite it from memory.
 
I have 83k rep on MSE. My top 5 sites have about that much in total, so removing MSE rep kills half of my participation here and invalidates the work I've done on MSE. I'm really sorry... I'm probably just never going to be impartial on this. My MSE rep has value to me.
 
9:26 PM
@RyanM Heh.. that's how I do it too. I almost never feel the need to upvote a post that already has a score of 23458, 20145 more than the next one. My vote will not change it's ranking, and votes are a ranking system.
@Catija I think it's probably best to not be biased when discussing what should be removed ;)
But.. why are you attached to the reputation points? I mean with the remaining 83K you'd have, you'd not even lose any privileges. And.. you're staff, so you have all of them at reputation 1.
 
yeah i'm not against mse rep staying, i just want to be able to cast a closevote without going through the flag menu
 
No one has posted anything that actually tells me why MSE rep is a problem that can only be solved by removing it entirely, rather than some other solution.
 
that's the thing
 
@Catija I agree with you - and I think that MSE rep sort of incentivizes a group of people to get very knowledgeable about Stack Exchange, to the point where I'll always prefer posting tricky how-does-this-work questions on MSE: because that's where the experts are.
 
there's a reason people keep particpating past 20k rep
rep means more than privilages
 
9:29 PM
(also because I like the rep. I'm guilty of it too.)
 
@Catija A good reason is that meta.stackexchange is the place to discuss policy. Except I'm pretty sure I only get one downvote of an Answer.. and that's it. Due to my low reputation there. So.. I don't downvote there. meaning people make policy without actually getting their content properly rated.
 
rep means just as much as showcasing that i've been a member for 10+ years
 
somehow... rep here means something, but at the same time i don't feel compelled to compare my own rep to other people
 
@Dharman Yep.
 
9:31 PM
I can't even understand the answer
 
because my rep, and voting history, answering history, tells a story
removing pieces... puts holes in it
 
@Dharman It's not on topic.. but I understand the answer :)
 
@Scratte I like rep. Shog was always the one who didn't care. Losing rep hurts. Getting downvotes hurts. I "know" that's stupid but... it's not something I can control really. I love the indicator of expertise and trust.
3
 
@Catija Yes, that's how most people thing of their reputation. And about downvotes. We shouldn't kid ourselves about that they hurt for most normal people. I'm just a little surprised that you're staff and still feel like that.
 
but I can't find it even with an external search engine, let alone SO's search.
 
9:35 PM
like, the current top meta discussion of the day, of removing voting history from the profile, voting history is a big part of the rep that i have currently
 
For me the motivation to get 20k reputation was that I really wanted to delete stuff. Without that, I would have no motivation to get reputation at all
 
how much rep would i have today, had i not been actively voting for 10 years
 
@Scratte so that argues for changing dvs to not cost rep or lowering the rep to downvote further (below 100).
 
I just like seeing the green bubble numbers popping up on my top-bar. Makes me feel all warm and glowy inside.
 
@KarlKnechtel this is close-ish, but not exactly on point...
 
9:36 PM
about losing points within the system, I mean.
 
Every upvote I get is 10 more downvotes I can cast, so that's another motivation
 
@KarlKnechtel I think you're suppose to either ask people to help you find a duplicate. Or post a request after you've found it. But not post a cv-pls asking people to find the duplicate.
 
@Catija that was my #1 gripe for a long time, till i decided to finally post an answer
 
pretty sure I got yelled at in the past for not tagging things, but ok
 
now... it's not an issue
 
9:37 PM
@Catija But it doesn't matter how much you lower it too. I have 101 reputation points. So at some point, that's it, no?
 
but it's still an issue for others
 
@Scratte not if we remove the rep deduction. I'd argue that it doesn't make sense on meta.
 
if the rep deduction was removed, i'd be over 2k
:D
 
@AdrianMole I used to just want the green medal.. but that got thoroughly spoiled. I think I can celebrate a one full year flagging hiatus in just a few months now.
 
@Scratte Hmm. Do you get a badge for that? Silver badge: "Vexiphobia".
 
9:39 PM
@KevinB I admit to being curious about your voting on MSE but I'll leave it alone.
 
@Catija I don't understand how you reached that conclusion (new question vs edits) when your own data showed that edits doubled the chances of a question being reopened.
 
i do downvote too much, in some scenarios, will certainly acknowledge that
 
@KarlKnechtel I didn't mean to yell at you :) Just to let you know that if you post a request it has to be actionable as is :)
 
@Braiam I'm assuming that you mean "your" as in "the company's". I haven't looked at it recently.
 
all good
 
9:40 PM
i'm not a fan of frivolous content, probably sums it up
 
@Catija But then why does gaining reputation make sense on meta? :)
 
@KevinB 🚽
 
@AdrianMole Heh.. I wish, but no. I do not think one is rewarded for inaction :D
 
😎
 
@Scratte I don't see the two as related. Rep is designed in particular on MSE to show expertise. Downvotes are a privilege that is granted with reputation by I don't know whether gating downvotes with rep makes sense.
(On MSE)
 
9:43 PM
i also tend to hold grudges
 
@Catija It's deceptive. One post.. lots of upvotes does not signal expertise. Just popularity. Or rather it deceptively signals expertise. But in what? :) Posting bug-reports?
Having a popular opinion?
 
On meta, to some degree that's the same thing. Ability to coherently make an argument and get people to agree is meta expertise.
 
@AdrianMole Eh, like downvotes and close votes, upvotes and reopen votes are orthogonal.
 
Ermm.. I don't think so. I have a score of about 500 on discussion on meta.stackoverflow, and I'm not a people person. I just got lucky with the timing.. that's all.
 
@KevinB in your vernacular... 🚽
 
9:45 PM
@Catija Technically, I was talking specifically about Shog's table that he posted using SE data.
 
Yeah. That's what I figured. I don't know whether I looked at it. And it's been a while, even if I did.
 
@RyanM Same shake: deal with the post, not the score. Votes are rating content, not how someone else rated the content.
 
The irony is that the score is from 10 posts. That's it. Actually only 2, since the rest don't have high scores like that.
 
@Braiam meh. I disagree. True rating systems are more than up/down. They have shades of grey and (if they're really flexible) the ability to rank based on different features.
 
the incentive structure is all wrong, really. I've complained about this before. For example, it's absurd that the system lets me unilaterally replace pending edits - even plagiarize them - but not unilaterally approve them. The system actively encourages me to mistreat newer people who are trying to learn to do good edits
by making it so that the edit gets in place faster if I don't properly credit them than if I do.
 
9:51 PM
imagine the edit queue would be full far less often if that were possible
 
But there would also be far more poor edits being approved.
... we've all seen some absolutely terrible reviews.
 
since that no longer automagically results in a reopen vote...
 
also, it's a serious problem that new users get to leave answers before they can comment, because it encourages them use the answer section for comments. the very few new users who are knowledgable and actively seek to participate, are taken out of the process of getting the questions in proper shape.
 
@Catija Well, that's the thing: I've never seen a true rating system that worked.
 
@KevinB I've seen some trivial edits to closed questions in the reopen queue in the past few days, so I'm not sure if that system has fully 'kicked-in' yet.
 
9:53 PM
I've seen system that are simple and kinda fulfill a purpose. Like ordering answers in the most useful to the least useful :D
 
might also need a bit of time to work out the kinks
 
@Braiam Hereditary aristocracy?
 
@AdrianMole Worked for whom?
 
The aristocrats. Who else mattered?
 
also on a meta level, every time these discussions come up, it feels like everyone else talks about "the review queues" as if they were the most important part of the site... while I find that they may as well not exist. They're not very discoverable and they're easy to ignore and if they weren't easy to ignore I would resent it. As someone capable of answering and fixing questions, answering and fixing questions is by far the most interesting and potentially rewarding thing the site offers
and I would much rather tell OP what is wrong directly, than decide whether someone else's assessment is good enough
 
9:55 PM
@KarlKnechtel That's funny, because there's a big red light that screams at you "NOTICE ME SEMPAI"
 
you mean that circle in the top-right corner of the screen?
 
@KarlKnechtel That, I absolutely agree with. I was very frustrated in the beginning, and since I could not ask for clarification, I just guessed instead.
 
Yeah, that's literally the only thing that stands out in the theme.
 
i found the red dot annoying enough to adblock it
and am somewhat annoyed that i can't get to reviews with g + r
 
to you it's screaming. to me it doesn't exist unless I'm consciously thinking about going to the part where I can click for my user profile
 
9:56 PM
(even though i'd rarely ever go there)
 
(but if I'm ranting about undiscoverability, that pales in comparison to the chat in general...)
 
So, why are you in the Close Vote Reviewers ... Chat Room?
 
i'm here because javascript chat is dead
 
Chat is dead: Long Live Chat!
 
tis the closest thing to a tavern on the meta this site has
 
9:59 PM
Hmm.. only today. Mostly this chat is just requests :)
 
I try to avoid actually acting on requests here, simply because I haven't done my due diligence to understand all the rules here
 
It only takes a weekend to read all the rules. You need to read them twice to memorize them ;) But if you happen to forget them, I'm sure Jeanne will be happy to remind you ;)
Urgh!.. I can't see votes on the timeline on meta.stackexchange.
 
@AdrianMole I'm pretty sure I got a heads-up once in a comment that socvr.org exists. I wouldn't otherwise. it's still ridiculous how much effort is involved in pulling someone into a chat room from the main site normally, i.e. unless the system randomly decides your comment thread is too long.
especially since "being nice to beginners" often seems to be code for things that are only possible in a medium with back-and-forth discussion
so, so much of the impedance mismatch between What The Site Is Supposed To Be :tm: and What Will Make The Site Owners Money :tm: seems like it would be solved by putting the chat up front, and encouraging people to use that as a lab before putting up a question
 
Someone posted that on meta.. kind of. It wasn't very popular.
 
10:14 PM
oh yeah, meta is basically unusable for me too
 
the problem with promoting chat is...
it needs work
it can't really handle the kind of traffic SO gets in it's new questions tab, for example, not even close
can you imagine the flags
 
No! please no! Chat works fine. Do not give it to people that removes features because there's a bug somewhere.
 
either almost everyone is clearly in the wrong ;)
or else everyone agrees, but the only thing I'm allowed to do is add another upvote to the ten-year-old (not hyperbole!!!) question with hundreds of upvotes, where it's clear that no action will be taken
really makes me want to burn it all to the ground and start over sometimes
 
@KarlKnechtel Codidact 2.0?
 
that seems to be the name that's popped up a couple times, yeah
I'm willing to try it, but I feel like in the long term the route for me is to just write Yet Another Learn-to-Program Book
 
10:21 PM
A new community is a non-starter for me
 
Each of us is free to make their own decisions. For me, the benefits (good features and excellent community) of Stack Overflow far outweigh the problems.
 
@KevinB To much reputation that can't be transferred? Being a newbie is scary, I suppose :)
 
I feel like, when I started using SE, both Meta and Chat had much more visible links in the UI, possibly in the top banners - I'm hoping that we'll eventually add them to the left nav instead of relying on them being discovered in the hamburger menu.
I think privileges and badges and even maybe review were more visible, too? It'd be cool if we could make it possible to customize the contents in the left nav - you want to add a link to meta? Go for it!
That said, I have no idea how complex customizations like that are to create but it can't be that much different than the tag engine stuff.
 
The left-nav pane is rather empty.
 
I actually have no earthly idea how I found SOCVR in the first place.
 
10:30 PM
I'm pretty sure I found it courtesy of a link (on a Meta.SO post or comment) by a blurry, somewhat floral Room Owner.
... he's been trying to remove all such links ever since! xD
 
@Scratte Being a people person and being able to construct and write out a coherent argument for your position are two different skills. You certainly have the latter, as your score on Meta shows.
 
@RyanM The first post had a score of -4 :D Until someone put in into their post and mine was exposed in a different light. It was all very ironic, really.. the same exact post getting very different responses.
 
@AdrianMole Something about "floral" made me think you wrote "former" and I was concerned that said flower had stopped participating here. It amuses me that I could get both floral and former at the same time, though...
Maybe it was the blurry that did it, though.
 
@Catija Lets start with being able to customize if we want the top bar to be sticky.. compared to the other stuff, that's a piece of cake. I know because I did it in about 20 characters worth of CSS.
 
@RyanM Thanks for this - I was at the park with Gus and I didn't have time to reply with something similar. But you're totally correct. I'm not a people person by any stretch. I like watching people but if you sent me to a mixer or some similar event, I'd hide in a corner unless someone approached me first.
 
10:40 PM
@Catija That's not what I meant by being a people person though. I have no trouble mixing and talking to strangers. I'm just not very forgiving.
 
I think you have a different definition of "people person" than I do.
 
@Catija Never did quite get the hang of networking mixers...
Honestly only learned how I should have been doing conferences after I was on the hosting side of one.
 
Team-player. One that people will go to when they're in trouble. Someone that forgives people their faults and moves on because that's the constructive way. Optimist about other people's abilities. Someone that likes other people. :)
 
I went to a conference for CMs with a bunch of SO stickers and stuff to give out to people I talked to... except I didn't talk to anyone. :P
... anyone want some stickers? :D
 
I find talking to people is easy. Liking them.. is another matter.
 
10:45 PM
Hmmm. Yeah, I don't like talking to people because I always feel like I'm just going to get judged and then people won't like me. But the corollary to that is that I want people to like me, so I tend to think well of people until they prove themselves otherwise.
 
Heh.. so it's like reputation points. You don't like downvotes in real life either.
 
Yup. Rep is... my way of quantifying that people like me.
Or, at least they like what I have to say.
 
But the truth is that you cannot control what people like or dislike. They may dislike you because you don't speak. Or because you used the wrong words. Or because you're not the right gender. Or colour.. or something else.
 
Sure. But... that's why I spend forever agonizing over anything I post that's going to be up for "review" if you will... I remember one time I said that it'd taken me four hours to write a post... someone responded in astonishment "How, it would have taken me 30 minutes to write something like that???" - It's because I need to be cautious about how I phrase things. The entire post may only take 30 minutes but the remaining time is me reviewing and editing it...
 
I don’t remember what drove me to visit js chat
 
10:49 PM
That answer to the MSE question about pseudonyms that I wrote... It took like an hour and a half but most of it was revisions and reframing stuff that I'd written to better reflect my thoughts without putting it in ways that might ... put people off.
 
But once a did… was an RO there shortly after
 
I dislike any use of the word "folks" and "y'all". They make my eye's twitch. They make me think that the speaker is dishonest and is trying to bring the conversation to a lower level to make others understand them. It's so bad, that I have a script that changes those words for me, so I don't judge people for using them.. :)
 
Wow... you'd hate me, then.
 
I really really hate those words. They reminds me of dirty politics and greed. Here's my own message with the script active
 
@Scratte I sometimes use the f-word ("folks") as a gender-neutral collective pronoun. And no joke, I spent 2 weeks in Kentucky once and it was months before I could stop saying "y'all"
 
10:51 PM
I have no idea what word you used, because I see "people" :)
The reason I really needed the script was that everyone was talking about Shog9 as a really great person, and all I saw was "folks" and "y'all", so I figured I had to do something to give myself a chance to read what they wrote :D
 
I'm a Texan. I've been saying it since forever.
 
The reason I mention that is that if you use those words and generally get a good response, there's no way you can know why this one person may really not like you.
I went to Texas once. It wasn't.. a great experience :D People are tainted by what they know and their preference and you just can't please everyone. It doesn't matter how well you phrase things, someone, somewhere will always dislike it.
 

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