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00:22
cbg
@SAJW From en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heartbleed "The vulnerability was classified as a buffer over-read, a situation where more data can be read than should be allowed". That is, the requesting computer "tricks" the server into returning data from beyond the end of an array. So yes, a tiny bit of input validation prevents it. The Wikipedia article has a pretty good explanation.
Speaking of security-related bugs, you can read about the Bash bug Shellshock here. It was discovered (and patched) by a member of U&L Stack Exchange, Stéphane Chazelas, who wrote the main answer to that question.
@PM2Ring is there some educational value to dig into hacking?
not doing it tho
just a change of perspective if you want
I think I try out writing a quote "generator" that Display: "quote here" - random famous person random year :D
 
2 hours later…
02:47
@PM2Ring I'll take a look - still trying to master this one - paws aren't as young as they use to be - so probably never will now but always up for a challenge... will check out Doley bro's later - thank you.
03:33
cbg
 
2 hours later…
06:07
Cbg
cbg
rbrb guys!
06:41
cbg
07:06
other than setting up a env variable, is there a way I can have two values available throughout out my laptop for any python code I run?
I create a .py in my site-packages and now I am able to import it, but is there a better way?
 
2 hours later…
09:32
hey guys, much cbg. quick question, which answer shows on the top for you here? stackoverflow.com/q/54678337/962190
Yours
Looks like I'm on the other side
Cbg, guys. I have json file, a dataset kaggle.com/rmisra/news-headlines-dataset-for-sarcasm-detection/…... This one..So If I open the file as notepad I see that there is no comma between the arrays or brackets [] [], what I want to do I want to put comma after every [].. How Can i do that..Please tell me.
@Arne i see the accepted answer first, and then yours. i believe that's the norm
ie accepted answers show above even higher votes ones afaik
09:47
good to know, so it seems there is an AB test ongoing where they just sort by votes, even if the accepted answer isn't by OP
10:05
here's hoping they stick with it
I managed to stifle a comment noting that it took them long enough to consider the most requested change that would be immensely helpful with practically no development time
(Partly because that's not Anita's fault)
10:24
cbg
11:15
that's awesome!
11:45
@MalikHamza I haven't downloaded it but it sounds like you're talking about JSONLines, in which case it possibly wouldn't be a good idea to create a single JSON object
 
1 hour later…
12:56
Also consider opening the file in something other than notepad, because it doesn't display line breaks unless they're Windows style.
Notepad was my text editor of choice for quite a while in high school, and this issue is like 85% of the reason that I began to look for something better
Read: If you are on Windows, consider the possibility that you are just a cosmic plaything of some evil eldritch power.
And if you perform the rituals in just the right way, you will survive longer. Or your doom will be mercifully swift, whichever you prefer.
13:12
@Kevin What is your editor of choice?
Notepad++. Objectively better than Notepad, by exactly one
No, I don't know what unit it is. Maybe a kilo-util.
Surprised they didn't call it notepad 2.0, there was a time when everything cool was 2.0. Wait maybe it's 3.0 because there was a notepad+
Still waiting for Notepad 3D.
Notepad's help menu says it's trademarked. I wonder if Microsoft has attempted enforcing it.
Ok, technically it says "The Windows 10 Pro operating system and its user interface" are trademarked. One may argue that Notepad is part of said user interface
One may especially want to argue that, if one is a megacorp that likes to have a couple lawsuits going just to stay sharp
> In 2015 Stack Overflow conducted a worldwide Developer Survey, and Notepad++ was voted as the most used text editor worldwide with 34.7% of the 26,086 respondents claiming to use it daily
Surprising
13:25
I quite like Notepad++. My primary frustrations are 1) no word count button, 2) limited multi-cursor capability, 3) a messily organized plugin ecosystem
@Dodge Take that, vimemacs!
They just list every plugin anybody has ever submitted, including ones named "test plugin", in alphabetical order, in a window that can't be resized
@MisterMiyagi Love me some Vim
Upon second review, I don't see any test plugins, so I will retract that component of my complaint.
The cursor thing is a bummer though
13:30
Multicursor support exists, but AFAIK you can only initiate it by ctrl-clicking where you want the next cursor to go. I would really like a keyboard shortcut for "create another cursor above/below the existing one" because 99% of my use cases involve rectangular selections
clicking is fiddly and if you misclick there is no "undo last cursor placement" so you have to dismiss all your cursors and start over
I read that originally as "multi-line cursor" but "multi-cursor", wow ... power user
What do you even do with two cursors at once
Ah, I was about to complain that you can't move the cursors with the arrow keys, but now that I try it, it works. Perhaps they implemented that in one of the versions since the feature's introduction
Seems like whatever you complain about is instantaneously fixed this morning. Please complain about the entire concept of traffic now
@Dodge Example use case: I have several lines of text that I would like to turn into a list of string literals. I place multiple cursors at the beginning of each line, and press the quote mark key. Then I press End, and quote mark, and comma. Now I only need to add my_strings = [ and ] to either end, and I'm done.
Ah cool, Vim does that by just repeating sequences of commands
13:35
Traffic is annoying, more people should telecommute, or just make peace with where they are currently. And America needs more walkable cities and better public travel infrastructure.
Notepad++ has a macro system that can repeat keystrokes N times. I've used it for problems like the one I described, and it's not too bad, if you take ten seconds to think about corner cases
"Press quote mark, then end, then quote mark, then comma, then home, then down" may or may not go haywire when word wrap is enabled and home/end don't necessarily jump to the beginning/end of a line
When I first started playing with marcos, a lot of my creations would have some strange off-by-one behavior, where e.g. the beginning quote mark would be inserted after the first character on the line. I never figured out why that was, but it stopped happening a year or two ago, so I suspect it was a bug.
The alternate explanation is that I got smarter, which is too silly to consider
 
1 hour later…
14:48
I'm reading some documentation about the custom scripting language embedded in the software I'm using. "To help you learn what ^ and other symbols mean, gaze upon this chart:"
Feast your eyes, O reader
I find this more tolerable than the emoji-laden documentation we were grousing about the other week. Mostly because the software is used by both techies and non-techies, and the latter demographic may find it comforting if the narrator doesn't sound like a robot
15:27
@Kevin 🤖
 
2 hours later…
17:08
@Kevin try Alt+Shift+arrows (or click)
also, plugin "bettermultiselect" if you prefer mouseclick on exact locations - but I find much easier to simply use ctrl+arrows (for word by word multiline offset) or "end"+ctrl+arrow (for reverse word offset).
17:49
I tried Alt+Shift+Down just now, and it turned my screen upside down. Interesting feature.
Oops, that's ctrl+alt+down. alt+shift+down (and other arrows) gives me a rectangular selection. Convenient!
Just for the sake of curiousity, I wanted to ask what you think about python type annoations? Actually, I was using them for some time and there is use of words like probably due to ... in errors and sometimes, they behave unexpectedly!
I don't use annotations but I welcome everybody else to use them as much as they want
For example, consider this file structure -
```
backupTool
|_Program
|   |_bT_GUI.py
|   |_bT_widgets.py
|_ backupTool.py

```
And the following statements from ```Program>bT_widgets.py```-
```
import Program.bT_GUI as bT
class <Some widget>:
def __init__(self, parentGUI:bT.GUI):
pass
```
While the import here works correctly, the type annoation here gives errors sometimes, the error is
``` ... probably due to circular imports ...```
Can you explain this?
Also, I read somwhere that these annoations are neglected by the interpreter, then, why these errors at all?!
@Kevin Yep, they don't hold much significance in dynamically typed language like python. But, I started to find them useful a few weeks ago when I discovered that I can use them to significantly avoid the documentation comments (that I need to write for every function).
And you know, the interesting thing is that it helps you avoid reading those long comments later!
18:07
I've seen circular import errors before, but not as a result of annotations. Interesting.
For example, as I use VSCode, it just pops up the syntax of the function when placing the opening parenthesis, so, if I use annoations in the function definition, it just is very helpful to maintain type safety (though visually).
Basically, I use them for the above reason mostly.
"[annotations] are neglected by the interpreter" -- yes, I believe that's almost always true
@Kevin Yes, exactly what I read! And, thats why I ain't able to figure out why that circular import error!
If you were determined to prove a point you could do def foo(x: sys.exit()) and it will exit your program, but I bet all well-behaved types are free from silly side effects
Exactly, that never happens with the inbuilts.
18:11
You may have done this already, but I suggest double-checking your code to verify that it does not contain a circular import
Since bT_widgets imports from bT_GUI, it might cause problems if bT_GUI also imports from bT_widgets
No, it doesn't. As for example, if I remove that annoation, but, keep that import statement, then the import is successful.
Moreover, I can even instantiate that class ``` Program.bt_GUI.GUI ``` in that file without an error!
Now that makes no sense
...we're talking about module-level code, right? If you're doing it in a function, that means nothing
Circular imports are a bit peculiar in Python because they're technically legal, and will only error out if you try to access a variable that got skipped over thanks to the circumlocutious path of execution
18:15
@Aran-Fey I didn't get it.
^^ this. You can import a partially-initialized module no problem. What causes errors if you try to access an attribute of the module that doesn't exist yet
import Program.bt_GUI will never fail. But if you do Program.bt_GUI.GUI afterwards, then it's possible that GUI doesn't exist yet.
How much potential would have 3x compiler for python (no change for code needed), is there any need for it? I mean, python has this label of the fast to make and not as fast language, if there would be a faster compiler then it could be changed, I guess. I'm talking about enterprise-level. Of course, python is often more than fine for usual personal work.
@Grasshopper forget it, it doesn't matter
@Aran-Fey Ok, now I get it.
I think this is a fairly well-known problem with annotations, where it's difficult to define a class A whose method B returns an X instance, and a class X whose method Y returns an A instance.
I think there's some way to resolve the problem with a placeholder of some kind?
18:18
Yeah, just write the type annotation as a string. For example, foo: 'module.Class' instead of foo: module.Class
@Aran-Fey If this works, then, it will be great!
Thanks for hint!
@0dminnimda I've heard that Python actually scales pretty well for enterprise-quality web servers. And scientific computing is lightning fast if you make effective use of pandas/scipy.
But certainly, a faster compiler would most likely attract a wider user base. If you've got one ready to go, give the core devs a call :-)
I just want that I annoate the parentGUI parameter of my Program.bT_Widgets to accept only Program.bT_GUI.GUI.
Let me give it a try with string annoation as @Aran-Fey has said.
@Kevin Yes! For example, you will find on the numpy site numpy.org that the Event Horizon Telescope has utilized numpy in some processing related things of their terrabytes of that in a highly performance critical situation that the telescope is working it.
These types of situations make the statements like 'Python is slow.' ironic. :)
The helicopter probe on Mars runs (partially?) on Python, which is a nice accolade :-)
@Kevin Yeah, for sure if you use libraries like scipy/pandas that are written in a more low-level language. But I'm talking strictly about pure python. Python is scalable if some things are taken into account, but if we want to extend python capabilities and use it for some calculation-intensive programs. It's like if we would have faster python we could use it for more serious tasks
18:28
I'm not very well-informed on the matter, but I think it would be quite challenging to replace the bytecode compiler with a machine code compiler. For example, lots of type information isn't known until runtime, so you can't even tell how many bytes to allocate for some variable x until the program is already running.
(I know that nobody in this conversation proposed making a machine code compiler, so I'm sort of bringing this up out of the blue)
@0dminnimda Though it is true, you will observe that the devs are coming up with lots of new tools in the CPython core library to help you make faster programs (especially algorithms related to intensive computing). For example, itertools is a built-in module for such tasks among others. Similarly, there are list comprehensions and many.
itertools isn't so much about doing things quickly as it is about doing things only if necessary
@Aran-Fey Yes, but, there are tools for performance too.
To summarize my position. Would it be nice if Python was faster? Yes! Would it be easy to make Python faster? No. Would it be worthwhile to try anyway? Unknown!
@Kevin Well, with a good static type analyzer we could probably get here. (that's what I'm working on, so that's why I'm interested in discussing this :] )
> Would it be easy to make Python faster? No
Sure
18:33
You can get pretty dang far with a static type analyzer, I reckon. But I believe deriving type information in all conceivable circumstances is an undecideable problem.
@Kevin Well, I heard that the ``` pyston ``` flavour is hoping for 2x to 3x for general cases and more than 15x for some class of cases.
@Grasshopper that's still old good oprimized byte code + jit
Whatever
But yeah, it's worth looking there
I like how the feature list on pyston's github includes "Quickening" with no immediate explanation. We just, quickened the code, to make it more quick. Duh!
18:36
> But I believe deriving type information in all conceivable circumstances is an undecideable problem.
well
I think that idea of byte code is worth considering.
for performance of course
we could get some information at least
Yeah :-)
And the good thing is that we already have those .pyc files with the CPython
We just need to optimise that code.
That makes the byte-code
Oh, its a little rhyme :)
CPython has a fair number of byte code optimizations already, some of which involve techniques beyond my comprehension
18:38
There are defined unsolvable problems in static type analysis, but if we could infer the most types, then we still could optimize the hell out of the code, I guess.
Yes, see for example the JAVA.
@Grasshopper What's up this it?
Thats damn fast than Python for most general cases. Even it is byte-code (as in case of .pyc) , but, it has the static typing!
@Grasshopper afaik it's strongly typed language, isn't it?
Yep! Thats what I am saying. That strongly typed feature is helping them them to make extremely optimized byte code (with some other reasons that I may not be knowing).
18:42
I mean, what's the deal with making python fast? not clearing memory and not defining types or even possibly redefine them, we like python because it is weakly typed.
The problem with conversations like these is that "strong typing" and "weak typing" don't have precise and widely accepted technical definitions.
My personal opinion is that Pyhon has "strong implicit typing". It's strongly typed because it is (almost) impossible to change an object's type after it has been created. It's implicitly typed because you don't have to declare variables with explicit types.
@Kevin I think as far as we understand each other, are we all right? I suppose there is no need for a precise definition to understand each other.
I think that we can exploit type annoations (this is my personal opinion though). If you make use of annoations, the interpreter will make use of them to make optimised code else, it will interpret as it has been doing upto now. This will help maintain legacy while allowing those requiring higher performance to do so.
(note that x = "foo"; x = 1 does not change the type of any object. It merely changes which object is bound to a name)
Like pointer stuff (though a pointer not bound to any type XD).
18:48
@Grasshopper Well usually it's better to check ourselves if the user is mistaken and even then, we would have to create an unoptimized version (along with optimised) because this function could be called with arguments of the different type.
if we compile everything, then no
@0dminnimda Then, we can have two versions of the interpreter - one for debugging and the other for release.
Moreover, as far as I think,
but if we will leave an option to use CPython with our compiled, then that statement holds true
if you haven't specified an annoation, then, surely, arguments can be different
But, if you have specified one, then, it is clear that you don't want any other type for that argument and if it is happening, then, you are doing something wrong (or unplanned).
18:52
@Grasshopper well, I think, that if we could infer types and create an optimised version, then it'll be really cool
@Grasshopper well, that the deal for type checkers
well
compiler is also type checker
but there are already type checkers, but not an type inferring compilers, i guess
for python
@Kevin "Would it be worthwhile to try anyway? Unknown!" I Hope it will tho :)
I'll leave the hard work to the devs that find all that interesting, and enjoy the benefits later
@0dminnimda If type checkers exist, then, I believe that type inferrers can be created.
The issue with Python is not type inference, it's that types are mutable.
Inferring types doesn't buy you anything if you cannot deduce anything solid from that information.
@Grasshopper Well, current type checkers are checking for annotated code / inferred simple types and they can't comprehend complex manipulations, but yeah.
@0dminnimda Well, as I have said some chats earlier, I am talking about annoated code (only).
18:59
If you read up on how PyPy – the fastest compliant implementation – works its basically a performance vampire sucking that sweet, sweet immutability from the few builtin types that have irrefutable guarantees.
That if you annoate, you will enjoy more optimised bytecode
That, and vodoo.
@MisterMiyagi Well, this is a whole other problem, also quite complex and there is a lot of room for improvement.
And if you don't, then, you will still have the candy that you have now - DYNAMIC TYPING
@0dminnimda No, it's not a "whole other problem" – it's literally the problem.
19:03
I don't think there is room for improvement if you insist on backwards compatibility. Either you allow types to have mutable qualities, and no optimization is possible; or you forbid mutable qualities, and backwards compatibility is gone
(intentionally using the vague term "mutable qualities" because I don't know enough about the object model to exactly quantify what that is)
*hides the plans for MiyagiLang*
plot twist: it's lisp
@MisterMiyagi First problem - infer types from the python ast and obtain possible values by abstract interpretation, then use this information in the second problem - compiling this all with optimization.
@0dminnimda sounds straightforward. I think you should go for it.
Well, I think that if I will (ever) need high performance code that Python couldn't provide, it would be easier to study C++/C and write the performance critical code in it. If even more performance, then, the whole program in C++ and still I think that it would be easier than messing up with the python types and optimizations. LOL
19:05
You may be thinking "well, maybe it seems impossible because we're not as clever as the core devs. It's a quite complex problem, but I bet they could figure it out." But consider: they've been trying to figure it out for twenty years. If there was any low-hanging fruit, it's long gone by now.
@Grasshopper there are acceleration options for (usually numerically heavy) things that run in tight loops, being more time critical
probably not your Facebook for Dogs backend, but your quantum Monte Carlo implementation
@AndrasDeak Itth pronounthed Lithp.
@AndrasDeak I already do, but it's slow to do it only by myself, but not like I invited a lot of people to collaborate ..
@Kevin It's not, I estimate that minimally working version could be done in 1- 2 years, and to make it really good - even more
any way
@AndrasDeak I know that and I mentioned that in some earlier message. By the way, I am sure that python and the modern hardware is more than enough to run the Facebook for dog backend.
we won't know if we don't try.
19:09
It is obvious that I am talking about those quantum Monte carlo ... types of problems.
@0dminnimda no, it didn't seem at all that you had any cooperation in mind
And I think that the model of using C/C++ in backend of some Python code is a very successful one (specially with Python) as can be seen in the case of numpy, pandas, ...
@AndrasDeak Sorry, I didn't get you, what do you mean?
@Grasshopper "Successful", as in fast, yes, but the opposite of why we use python. These projects do it regardless because they re libraries on top of which users can build.
when people talk about accelerating python they usually mean end-user code
@0dminnimda nevermind
Its probably better than messing with the Python acceleration itself for developing your applicaiton to use C/C++ backend (unless you are a core dev).
19:15
@AndrasDeak I mean, I plan to go to some forums and say, "People, I can make Python faster, help me." But until I have at least something working, I think I will not be able to go for it.
And until you really understand what the issue is, that multiple people here have been trying to explain to you.
but the "something working" would come after "understand the issue" so it's all good
I'm so confused by the past convo. The take-away - "Facebook for Dogs" is gonna launch? I wanna get in on that
Typing status: it's complicated.
Now that you mention it, your dabbling in the dark arts sounds a lot like Discworld Igors, Miyagi.
Perhapth.
19:20
@AndrasDeak Wdym, I think, I know what the issue is. I have a plan for how to use information, obtained from static analysis, but to implement this in code I need a static type analyzer :)
about this But, it seems to me that this is done a little differently, and just in order for something to be created, you need to go and find someone who will help .. I'm not sure ..
Thanks for linking that. It gives me enough context to understand why nothing afterwards made any sense to me
My take-away was candy from a baby, and it was delicious
19:25
@0dminnimda You might want to check out "Algebraic Subtyping" by Stephen Dolan if you haven't already. That should cover most of the inference algorithms/background relevant for a language like Python.
@MisterMiyagi thanks, I'll take a look
Sending them down a typing rabbit hole when they haven't caught up with "types are mutable, yo" yet seems a bit evil, Igor
just another day in Überwald I guess
And in any case, if we have a powerful static analyzer, we can use it to translate code into a typed language for which an optimized compiler already exists.
@AndrasDeak Mutht be the thunny weather, I guethth.
@Grasshopper Java is also awful in its explicit enforcement of types. And it extends beyond "typing" in a function signature. And there's the GIL.
19:33
@0dminnimda Thats what I was trying to say long ago ....
@Grasshopper Rather, this applies to those who think that THE problem is to make a compiler that will use static analysis information.
@roganjosh Ya, but, still, if you consider, then, the Java bytecode is way more faster as compared to python bytecode in general. And, static typing plays a log of role in that.
@0dminnimda Yep, thats what I said, Enjoy the optimisation if you provide static analysis information (probably with annoations) else stay with what the python is upto now.
Java and Python bytecode are practically the same. Java just has Sun/Oracle/... pour tons of money into a proper VM.
You're not speaking as someone that's going to convince me that Python itself needs to change, and I use both python and Java. Have you considered that maybe people more capable have thought of this before?
FWIW, there's Jython which executes Python via JVM bytecode. It's... not fast.
Thorry, forgot my lithp.
19:39
Lol. Have you actually put Jython through its paces?
Almost forgot... @0dminnimda for Python's type system you should check out Girard's paradox at least.
It's probably the biggest pitfall to be aware of.
@MisterMiyagi Its slow probably because Jython has to implement that dynamic typing even if its using JAVA. As, if thats the case, then, CPython is written in C and ...
@Grasshopper Indeed. It's almost like bytecode isn't relevant at first order...
By the way, guess what the JVM is written in.
@MisterMiyagi Ok, thanks
@MisterMiyagi C?
Better to Google then to guess!
19:43
Than* and at this point, I'm not sure what's being debated (again)
Google says that the official implementation is mostly written in C and C++
"We are currently experiencing issues playing your video. Please try again later." - has to happen in the last 10 minutes of a film doesn't it - arhghghghgh
@roganjosh We're just discussing efficient python compilation + static analysis
@roganjosh I think this a point of transition in the topic (as it is difficult to tell which river at a point of join of two rivers). XD
@roganjosh Whether eggth thould be poached or fried, I guethth.
19:47
Ok, it was nice to talk to all of you, I guess I will look here more often, now I will go to continue creating Intermediate Representation for my static analyzer.
But Python isn't going to be a "compiled" language, and certainly not through typing so what's the point. If you want compiled code, there are other tools to do that with python/a python-esque language
pythran, cython, numba, others. Take your pick.
@roganjosh cython
@roganjosh "But Python isn't going to be a "compiled" language" will see :)
I think talking about python compilation is almost useless as python was not designed for that. It was designed tobe interpreted.
19:49
@0dminnimda No, I'm quite happy to bet that we won't
@roganjosh well.. technically while language specification doesn't require anything - it still is "compiled" (in CPython at least) at the end of the day into bytecode :p
@JonClements You take over from here, Sir :P
nope... I'm trying to get the last 10 minutes of this film to play!
yamming streaming service
@JonClements Just saying compiled is different from saying 'Compiled to bytecode' as 'compiled' in general refers to compilation to binaries.
Can we drop this now, please? You've had a few goes at explaining your stance and I don't buy any of them
19:52
@JonClements THE END. XD
@Grasshopper sure... but then one couldn't consider something like C# compiled as it compiles to .NET bytecode which is then later interpreted etc.. etc...
anyway - I'll shut up now - sorry @roganjosh
np. I was late to the party anyway but it looks like it's dragging on
@JonClements Now, I won't be able to put up my brain for this as I have already been putting it to one thing or the other through last ¬2 hours in this chat. Now the Grasshopper needs to sit idle on a grass blade for some time.
@roganjosh import numpy as np
XD
I'm afraid you need to try harder than that to amuse me
@roganjosh I think I might actually have tomorrow off as an actual day off... going to sleep in a fair bit... but if you're up for some duke?
20:03
@JonClements I'll have to get back to you tomorrow. I'm as-yet undecided about whether I'm at an al-day event tomorrow :/
okie dokies
@roganjosh AI event?! You people work in big companies? Then, I should probably zip up my mouth in this room (except when asking for a problem) as I have just passed from school 2 months ago and looking for a college.
:|
@Grasshopper couple of things; 1) it was a typo. It was supposed to be "all-day" and 2) it's an all-day BBQ event for an AI company :P
@Grasshopper There are a lot of high-profile people that use this chat. All are welcome, but it's perhaps different to what you might see in regular chat rooms on other sites
@roganjosh The chat seems welcoming, though (except sometimes)
We do try to be. It's not always the case, but it's the job of ROs (room owners) to try make it happen
And, of course, the main body of regulars in this chat are just naturally exceptionally helpful
20:17
Hey @roganjosh Here's another raspy voice for you. Marcus King, with his song Goodbye Carolina. (He's from South Carolina).
@roganjosh I see ..., gotta go. Have to try out an annoation related stuff. Good Bye.
rbrb :)
And here's a recent one of Marcus singing & playing with Tedeschi Trucks: youtu.be/y7VpWCeq-yI
You mean to interrupt my current Katy Perry song on YouTube for this?! :P
(I would like to absolve myself here - it's just in the YT playlist generated for me)
I've got nothing against Katy Perry. :)
20:41
@PM2Ring I'm still loving youtube.com/watch?v=-xKM3mGt2pE - way better than the original imho
@JonClements You might like young Emily Linge. She's done a few A-Ha covers, eg youtu.be/TU4i-WuuLjQ Her Dad's English, her Mum's Norwegian, but they live in Dubai.
Here's Emily teaming up with Chiara Kilchling (from Germany), doing an Aerosmith song, I Don't Want To Miss A Thing. They're both multi-instrumentalists. Chiara's Dad is German, but her Mum's Hungarian.
Here's Chiara doing all the parts on Fleetwood Mac's The Chain.
20:59
Wowsers... just listening to that first one and wow she's got a voice on her
She's not bad for a 13 year old. :)
indeed
I prefer the cover of youtube.com/watch?v=aYEMaWETcNA - rather than the Sia original.
I'm constantly checking her YT channel for new stuff - she's talented.
Chiara's a few years older. She's just about to start university. I hope she has time to keep posting to YouTube. Here's one of her originals: Golden Hour. And a beautiful Joni Mitchell cover, Little Green
@JonClements She is good. It's great that talented kids like that can get an international audience through YouTube.
@PM2Ring ditto
hey guys I'm kind of desperate, so here comes a shot in the dark question...

I'm running an iterative algorithm. I'm comparing two implementations of it, in two different files, but they are actually completely identical (the file contents). yet I consistently get different results, one file (the same one) always takes fewer steps to converge. you can see the comparison of five runs for each file here: https://i.sstatic.net/Cqruc.png . the blue one should be the same as the green one, or at least vice versa
21:12
I'm still a fan of youtube.com/watch?v=DQYNM6SjD_o - it's a haunting song - but love it
Here's some impressive vocal work. Sarah Jarosz joined David Crosby to cover Joni's For Free.
@JonClements That's sweet. Here's one of Sarah's songs with a similar theme Hometown
@PM2Ring omg... loving that one
Something uplifting from Sarah: Build Me Up From Bones
@corazza you are not showing what really matters: the actual code. Your globals() diff shows a difference of two functions, at the end. If the implementations are different there then the results will be different, yes? And I don't understand "two different files, but they are actually completely identical".
Are you trying to say that just by renaming a module from jirp to jirp_noise you get different results?
There's also pybind in the globals() output, and if that doesn't belong to the ipython kernel then you might have compiled code in there, which doesn't update unless you recompile your package.
21:29
hey @AndrasDeak , I've asked a full question here: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/69050699/what-could-be-the-possible-cause-of-two-identical-python-files-behaving-differen

the question includes the code
the two functions aren't different: they're the contents of each the file, so their module names are different which is shows up in the diff
@JonClements I see what you mean. I haven't heard that one for a decade or two. It's a classic "cry in your beer" country song. ;)
@AndrasDeak I'm not sure what this (the pybind message) means: I got the globals() from starting an IPython shell within the code
indeed and with that I'm going to get some sleep - been a weird day - thanks for the links @PM2 - catch you all later... rbrb
@JonClements Night, Jon.
@AndrasDeak How's Chiara's Hungarian accent? youtu.be/REuvJNegoXk
@corazza we ask that you don't discuss questions in parallel here and on the main site. Let's see what users there will have to say.
@PM2Ring native
21:36
Excellent
@AndrasDeak makes sense, thanks :)
@PM2Ring that's a really powerful song by the way
she's good
@AndrasDeak It is! It's good to see kids with some political awareness.
A lot of the stuff that she does is "good times" music, but she's not afraid to do deeper darker stuff. That song by Joni Mitchell that I posted earlier, Little Green, is about Joni giving up her baby for adoption. But Joni didn't reveal that info until a couple of decades after she wrote the song.
Another Hungarian one: youtu.be/cK5few3qblU
Wow, Emily's amazing
here's hoping nobody "discovers" and ruins her life
@PM2Ring ha, same age for the song
Kanye West (ugh) sampled that song
21:52
Emily and Chiara teaming up with German drum prodigy Sina, doing an A-Ha song. (I should've posted this version before. Oh well). youtu.be/HJ1Biqhs3Qo
@AndrasDeak Yeah. I get the feeling that she's pretty headstrong. And she's kind of isolated from the Western media machine, living in Dubai.
I also get the feeling that her family's not short of cash, so she's not desperate to hit the big time for financial reasons.
22:27
A little bit of Bach on mandolin from Sierra Hull youtu.be/LSuUXQSMhrI Sierra with Chris Thile, showing off their superhuman speed & precision. youtu.be/DHznTAqc_3c
22:37
@PM2Ring do you think there will be some groundbreaking discoveries in networking?
like greatly better speeds or sth
@SAJW where did that question come from?
I am currently reading a book about networking :D
And why did you ping PM specifically?
Mmh, sure. That was kinda dumb.
You've been asking these completely random and for the most part unrelated to python questions, and it's getting a bit too much.
22:41
could have opened a channel with just me and him
@SAJW No idea. I don't know a lot about networking.
The general Stack Exchange chat policy, and the specific policy of this room, is that you don't target people with questions. You post the question to the room, and if someone wants to respond, they will.

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