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12:09 AM
I'm reading zend_call_function … is it technically possible to loose pcntl signals due to exceptions being thrown? If I read that correctly EG(exception) may be non-NULL when zend_interrupt_function() is called in zend_call_function().
shouldn't we back the exeption state up there and restore afterwards? Don't think this should be a callee resposibility… (and pcntl does not check anyway)
 
 
2 hours later…
2:10 AM
@scorgn if the file is tracked in git, it'll highlight lines that are changed, if you commit regularly. I'm not sure if that's what you're after?
 
 
4 hours later…
6:22 AM
Throws a Notice exception when the [Null Coalescing Operator] detects an array ・ *General Issues ・ #81212
 
 
2 hours later…
7:55 AM
Hello! How many passes does the PHP compiler have? That is, how many times does it iterate on the AST?
 
@RemiCollet Does one of your repositories have a newish libcouchbase ? I need a 3.x version.
 
yes
@Derick for which distro ?
 
centos6/7
 
C is dead
C6 is dead, so nothing recent there
 
how do I know what the latest one is?
 
8:01 AM
for C7, I have libcouchbase-3.1.3-1.el7.remi.x86_64.rpm
 
and C6?
 
And I guess I can't get the C7 one installed with C6? :-)
 
btw, you are not really going to fix something for 6 ? this one is dead, unmaintained and unsecure
 
I'm also still doing PHP 5.3...
legacy users
 
8:05 AM
@Derick I understand maintaining legacy stuff on maintained distro
and no, you won't be able to use C7 packages on C6
 
let me make it work on c7 first
so your repo has libcouchbase, what about epel? (and again, how do I find out)
 
8:20 AM
and above link allow to search any package
@Derick also official way (instead of my small app) src.fedoraproject.org/rpms/libcouchbase
 
thanks
that's fedora though, I only need the "enterprise" distros here o_O
 
my app list both, src.fp.o is for Fedora and EPEL
 
gimme source any time!
 
8:46 AM
(over packages, source is the same for every distro)
 
sorry, still don't understand
 
it's ok, it's not important :-)
 
@NikiC Is it ok to set EG(error_reporting) in zend_compile_silence to avoid deprecations during compilation when @ is used?
 
@IluTov no
Unless they are specifically compile-time deprecations, you need to prevent compile-time evaluation to delay the deprecation to runtime
@IluTov There are some existing helpers like zend_binary_op_produces_error that might suit your needs
 
9:01 AM
@NikiC I see, thanks!
 
Or is it just lexer -> parser -> AST -> opcodes, in one pass?
 
yes, per file
@OlleHärstedt I gave a talk on this: youtube.com/watch?v=mT6hop_dKKI
 
FYI: PHP 8.0.8 announce will happen only in the afternoon, I'm feeling :( after my first vaccine shot, I'm resting a bit to get better
 
@Derick Great, thanks!
The JIT in PHP 8 is operating only on opcodes, correct?
 
9:22 AM
@GabrielCaruso Afternoon CEST, or brasil time?
@OlleHärstedt Yeh
 
Afternoon CEST, still in NL, not going to Brazil until December :)

I'll try to get it announced until 4pm
 
"before 4pm"
until is a Germanism.
@cmb Did you announce yet?
 
cmb
nope; will do right away
 
9:35 AM
@Derick Got it, thanks
 
@RemiCollet One more question... centos7 and epel, why wouldn't there be a epel/i386 setup?
 
@Girgias You might want to read over the variance code another time and see if you find any more issues ... I'm not very confident in its correctness
 
cmb
@Derick done
 
@Derick C7 and newer are 64-bit only
 
lolwat - you're saying there is no C7/i386 at all?
... we've been running that in CI for, uhm, at least a year
 
9:42 AM
@Derick I mean RHEL-7 is 64-bit only, there is some CentOS 7 rebuild for i386, but this is NOT an official project (and probably not supported)
 
OIC
@RemiCollet We've been using hub.docker.com/r/i386/centos -- which looks official?
 
@IluTov, hey there, can you give a small help again pls? xD
 
I have no idea of what "official" mean in docker ;)
 
Yeah, nothing. Really.
There are also "Official PHP" images, which is of course nonsense too.
 
9:52 AM
@OlleHärstedt Depends on what you mean by pass. Lexer, parser and AST construction happen concurrently. The compilation to opcodes is a separate step afterwards.
@Girgias I also don't want to know how this is going to look like with mixed intersection & union...
Maybe we're missing something and there's some way to make this simple and correct ^^
 
@NikiC Hm, concurrently like in parallel? Or more like in one big blob (or loop)? :)

Compiled languages often traverse the AST multiple times, and different internal representations too. Don't know much about how scripting languages do it. Guess the opcode or bytecode or whatever is the important part when there's a JIT.
 
Well, maybe concurrent isn't the right word. More interleaved, in a streaming fashion
 
But yes, the AST to opcode lowering is mostly single pass. Any heavy lifting is done on opcodes. The JIT in particular works on an opcode trace with a TSSA overlay.
 
Hi guys
this it's valid ?
https://3v4l.org/X0ksi
 
10:03 AM
@Crell Forgot to close PFA vote?
 
@NoobDEV-GBL You can just post your question and see if somebody will answer.
 
@IluTov i gess you r right... tanks anyway
 
@BruceOverflow Bad style, but valid :)
 
Aren't static function calls on traits likely going to be deprecated in 8.1?
 
@NikiC lol :-)
 
10:06 AM
@Derick yes
I didn't even notice it's a trait, I thought this was about using :void return value ^^
 
same here
 
@NikiC also for this it's strange
 
it would be nice if using the result of a void could trigger a warning or something
I seem to remember there was a good reason why they can't
 
@IMSoP dynamic calls
 
yeah; I guess no one place in the code knows quite enough to give the warning
 
Incident with Webhooks ・ Issues, PRs, Dashboard, Projects has Partial Outage
 
morns
 
@NikiC What's TSSA?
Or you mean SSA?
 
@OlleHärstedt The T is just for trace there ^^
 
10:34 AM
Ah
 
TIL: the readonly properties stuff is Nikita's second contribution to OOP :D I wonder what the first one was? :D
 
@MateKocsis 🤣
 
@NikiC wiki.php.net/rfc/partial_function_application should be done by now "The vote was opened on 16 June 2021 and closes 30 June 2021."
 
@MateKocsis wat?
 
10:50 AM
@Tiffany I was referring to externals.io/message/115248#115249 :)
 
🤦
 
developers.google.com/drive/api/v3/quickstart/php Google Drive API Quick Start sees outdated (or i am wrong) , with this steps i installed the app , but its throwing - Error 400: redirect_uri_mismatch
i am looking for help , i spent so much time in this setup :(
 
11:07 AM
@NikiC I think I would still like to chat about readonly properties for the podcast
 
11:22 AM
@Derick ok, same place, same time?
 
@Derick Out of curiosity, how many monthly listeners is your podcast getting?
 
11:35 AM
All issues have been resolved!
 
Any comments on the idea of using type-cast to callable as a synonym for foo::fn?
 
@NikiC 11am on MOnday? Yes.
@GabrielCaruso I've no idea!
 
PHP 8.0.8 announced, thanks everyone. Now off to bed to get better :)
 
@Derick yeah
 
sounds good
 
11:55 AM
@GabrielCaruso i think you should change from "bugfix" to "security" ;)
 
cmb
@GabrielCaruso GA releases are not supposed to be announced on QA mailing list. :)
 
Stream crypto methods SSLv2 and v3 switch to TLS1.0 ・ OpenSSL related ・ #81213
 
12:14 PM
Can't compile mailparse for PHP 8.1 ・ mailparse ・ #81214
 
12:38 PM
Possible memory leak with closure nested \array_filter() ・ Performance problem ・ #81215
 
1:10 PM
@OlleHärstedt you mean introduce two different syntaxes for callable references, "foo:fn" and "(callable)foo"? I think one syntax is enough (and prefer "foo(...)" to both of those options)
or do you mean an actual type-cast, so that (callable)$foo (or, more logically, (closure)$foo) is equivalent to Closure::fromCallable($foo)?
 
(callable)$foo looks like it does what it says, but I don't think it brings any facility that Closure::fromCallable($foo) doesn't already provide.
And I agree, I think foo(...) is the best syntax of those options
foo::fn (or foo::function) feel broken and isn't really the same as Foo::class conceptually so it could be confusing
 
> looks like it does what it says
emphasis on the looks....not on the does.
 
anyone would like to collaborate on github.com/azjezz/php-rfcs/pull/3 for PHP 8.2? ^^
 
@SaifEddinGmati I would like tuples but honestly I'm not sure it's worth it. Looking at the intersection type RFC I'm suspecting it might be a lot harder to implement than it seems.
@SaifEddinGmati "However, tuples are mutable, therefore their values can change:" Why?
 
I dunno if you want to start with the assertion that most projects are using static analysis, I think that's far from established fact ... a third of websites reporting php in 2021 are using version 5 ...
 
@SaifEddinGmati "This is done because of BC reason, since the following is currently valid PHP code:" This syntax will require arbitrary lookahead. This won't work with the current parser.
 
1:46 PM
@IluTov we can use hack syntax i guess tuple($x, $a) or tuple[$x, $a]
 
@SaifEddinGmati That would indeed work.
 
@IluTov because all types in PHP are? :p
@IluTov union types are the reason tuples aren't a subtype of array.
we can eliminate support for unions in tuple elements, and that would make them a subtype of array
 
@SaifEddinGmati Doesn't mean they should be. E.g. we were planning on making ADTs immutable.
 
@IluTov i can see myself already rebuild the tuple just to change one element, and i don't like that, especially if it contains more than 2 elements.
@JoeWatkins didn't know how to start it honestly, will probably edit that first part
 
@SaifEddinGmati Tuples should be short, there's no reason you shouldn't just create a new tuple. This will also save you the trouble of thinking about value semantics as tuples are usually passed by value, not reference.
 
1:51 PM
@NikiC Doing that today. I don't know what time of day the vote technically is supposed to close, so I figure today is close enough.
 
@IluTov yea, they need to be passed by value, should probably add that in the draft
 
I still don't know what an alternate approach would be that wouldn't have the same complications. We've been discussing it for a while and haven't come up with a different angle of attack that is any better.
I have never understood the general use of unnamed tuples except as an implementation detail of something else; for user-space, I want named tuples only, and those are called classes.
 
e.g:

$x= get_4_fields();
$x[2] = $foo;
return $x;

vs
$x = get_4_fields();
$y = tuple($x[0], $x[1], $foo, $x[3]);
return $y;
 
@Crell fyi I closed it. the rfc said the vote was meant to close yesterday.
 
@SaifEddinGmati IMO as soon as your tuple has more than 3 fields it's probably the wrong data time.
 
1:54 PM
actually, that's one of the best uses cases i have for tuples in Hack, you can't type the return value of a data provider more specifically than that.
 
@Danack Oh. I thought it's supposed to end at the end of the day (by which time I was asleep).
 
@Crell one of the things I have worked on, but failed to finish due to a variety of personal failings, is a tool that automates opening and closing of votes, to prevent drama.
 
@SaifEddinGmati How do you know what the 3rd int is? What is dict<string, vec<string>>? A class would be a much better fit.
 
when people set a time, it's usually something like 9pm utc.
 
@IluTov dict<string, vec<string>> is headers, but yes, a type alias would be a better fit, but a tuple of 5 element would still be valid there
 
1:59 PM
@SaifEddinGmati With named tuples, maybe. If they are positional only more than 2 fields are likely not great for DX, no matter if they're aliased.
Obviously it depends on the use case. Vector3 is going to be simple to understand even with 3 values. Mixing types is suboptimal.
 
That's still ungood
 
Dependent types??
 
$str = "foo";
null?->{$str . "bar"};
 
@NikiC agree, this would be better :p
 
2:09 PM
@NikiC Something wrong with this case?
 
@IluTov It leaks
Nullsafe operator is terrible :(
 
@NikiC :(
 
No idea what to do with this. Problem is that the jmp_null is part of the delayed oplines, which means that the concat ends up happening before, but we might jump over the use-site and thus leak
 
2:25 PM
I mean... maybe... NOT do the concat before the jmp_null ?
 
@NikiC Honestly the whole delayed oplines are very hard to reason about, at least if you're not very familiar with all the various cases.
 
cmb
https://heap.space/xref/PHP-7.4/ext/gettext/gettext.c?r=92ac598a#273
Should I document the "0" case, or are we're trying to get rid of it sometime?
 
2:41 PM
@IMSoP Yes, exactly.
(Sorry, passed out for some hours.)
 
Nullsafe operator leaks dynamic property name ・ Scripting Engine problem ・ #81216
 
2:52 PM
that's not very nice
 
kind of random question: does anyone have a wordpress site that doesn't use custom post types and wouldn't mind me hitting it with CURL requests to the site's public API? (wanted to see how something looks using an in-house script, but I don't have a site handy, and I don't want to set one up just for writing some documentation...)
 
@Sara It should enable (callable) strlen from constant, not variable, was the point. :)
 
Good evening all, I'm designing a new application. it's a property listing website and I realised a design pattern would make life much easier. I've broken the properties down to 3 possible actions (rent/buy/sell) available on different property types (apartment/house/land) I was thinking of implementing the builder pattern, to build a property object. I'm not so familiar with design patterns, for those that are, does this approach make sense? is there a more optimal pattern for this use case?
 
@Sara OK, I'm in the camp that thinks it looks like a typo. ^^ Guess some kind of voting will decide the final result in the end.
@Sara I'd be OK with foo:fn, but yes, considering ::class returns a string, it can be confusing at first glance, before knowing/reading about the behaviour.
 
Can we just get rid of cloning?
 
3:03 PM
@OlleHärstedt I think having something that looks like it's casting a value, but actually changes the parsing of the following token, would be kind of weird
 
imageavif() fails - Segmentation Fault or No codec available ・ GD related ・ #81217
 
(int)foo doesn't change what foo means; it looks up the value of foo, and then casts it; so logically (callable)foo would be equivalent to Closure::fromCallable(foo) not Closure::fromCallable('foo'), and therefore not particularly useful
I also think simple function names are the wrong example to focus on; the thing we desperately need good syntax for is method references
and having (callable)$foo->bar change the meaning from referencing a property to referencing a method is even more weird
 
Well
Just looking for workaround for unifying constants/functions and all that jazz. That's why I prefer there should be ranking choice surveys, to see if people want nothing, or the least bad option. :)
people = those with voting power, I mean.
 
designing a good survey and interpreting its results is almost as hard as designing the feature you're asking about
throw 20 suggestions at someone, and they'll vote with their gut, because considering all the factors is too much effort; limit yourself to 3, and everyone will complain that their option wasn't included
 
3:14 PM
Hehe
Still better than "yes/no".
 
meh
 
I mean, that challenge is better than yes/no. But sure, it has to be properly done, maybe max 5-6 alternatives + "do nothing", and those alternatives must have been discussed before so people know what it means.
 
Hack syntax is starting to make sense, plus it's will support generics if they ever come :p
 
This would have been good for attributes, e.g.
 
that is what happened for attributes; repeatedly, and painfully
 
3:17 PM
Huh?
They did ranking surveys?
I got the impression it was mostly informal noise-making.
 
So you want formal noise making instead? :P
 
Me? No.
 
@OlleHärstedt yes, repeatedly
 
You have a link? Totally missed it.
 
that was the links
 
3:19 PM
oops xD
OK, that's not exactly ranking...
 
it's ranked choice voting
 
Yes, I saw, sorry again ><
 
it was just done in a horribly verbose way because of the lack of support in the voting widgets
 
Good info
 
3:21 PM
@Derick do you plan to announce 7.4.21 soon (or later today, in which case I won't wait to relay the announcement for my repository users)
 
@SaifEddinGmati and in a few months time, they will be promoting static analysis as something that Laravel did first and does best.
 
@RemiCollet Already done?
 
@Danack huh, when i used to work at SF, Fabien also didn't want us to use SA tools, now Symfony uses psalm in CI :D
 
@Derick thanks and sorry for the noise (looks like my RSS reader is late)
 
....I never said the failings of the Laravel community were unique to them. Symfony are now also discovering that doing DI with a powerful enough injector is a bit better than having a massively complex hard-coded config format.
 
3:24 PM
@IMSoP What prompted to make a second vote? o0 Someone didn't like the result? :D
"Referendum until the people agrees..."
 
yeah, pretty much
 
democracy is actually a really bad way of making a decision
 
opinion: RFC should be split into categories and people are granted voting rights on specific categories rather than everything ( also revoke voting rights for people that pop only once every year )
 
It's fine to vote only once per year. It's totally volunteer...
 
3:33 PM
All these people coming out of the woodwork now, sad about partials not passing. Where were you when we were trying to make the case that they were useful?
 
@Crell i was home ... get a call ... "partial no pass" ... me sad :(
 
@OlleHärstedt it was more to it than that... but it's something most people are fed up with at this point because it was discussed ad nauseam
 
You've been here. :-) I mean the non-voters who have been quiet. Though at the same time, I don't know that "rallying the troops" is an appropriate way to influence the vote.
But I do know pipes seem to have a lot of public support, even without partials.
 
some of the discussions occurred in here, some of it on the mailing list, some of it on reddit
 
I just don't know if that extends to internals.
 
3:37 PM
@Crell personally, without partials, it's even worst as is now, and v1 would work better.
 
@OlleHärstedt introduction in the second RFC summarizes it pretty well wiki.php.net/rfc/shorter_attribute_syntax_change#introduction
 
from DX PoV
 
I am not interested in Hack-style pipes.
 
@IMSoP I disagree completely. :)
 
Depends on the type of decision.
 
3:49 PM
get_object_vars returns parent class parameters ・ Documentation problem ・ #81218
 
59%. People want it, but also don't. Sucks.
 
Most people want it. Just not enough of a most.
Fabien is the one that surprised me, personally. He so rarely votes, it's odd he'd come out of the woodwork to vote no on this.
 
Rasmus doesn't vote often either, and also voted no.
 
I was thinking, do you have enough feedback to continue? Or are all nos just "never pipes, ever".
 
@OlleHärstedt There's not one answer from everyone. That's part of the issue.
 
3:58 PM
Yet another alternative than ranking choice could be multiple choice. Yes/Yes but not like this/No, never.
 
Derick doesn't want pipes, because it doesn't have good hook points for Xdebug. (I don't know how to fix that.) And partials naturally lead to pipes.

Nikita doesn't like partials because the complexity isn't worth the ROI, he feels. Subjective question, hard to argue against without chicken-and-egg problems.

I suspect a lot of the no votes on partials were "Nikita says it's too complicated."
 
@OlleHärstedt I didn't say democracy was a Bad Thing; I said it was a bad way of making a decision, in the sense that it makes actually reaching a conclusion harder, not easier
 
@Crell But still you have to guess, which is not so nice after spending a lot of time and work on the RFC.
 
So, any new attempt on partials is going to have to either reduce complexity (I don't know how) or have a stronger case for how it would help code in the wild, which is a hard chicken-and-egg to solve.

PIpes would, but pipes also was met with either "we want Hack style" or "it's too ugly without partials." So, now no partials.
There's a bunch of things I've been working on that are all inter-related, and their best argument is when they're taken together. But the RFC process requires them all to come one by one.
I really don't know how or if to proceed. :-/
 
Uh, hack-style looks exactly like the current proposal, but with $$ instead of "?"
 
4:01 PM
No, the current pipes RFC is written assuming partials passed.
 
You mean pipe RFC?
 
Hack style puts an expression on the RHS. Everyone else, including my v2 proposal, puts a callable on the RHS. Very different implications.
Fixed. :-)
 
OK
Two function calls on RHS
 
Only superficially.
 
Ah. Bad manual. xD
|> $$ + 10 would work then, in Hack?
 
4:03 PM
Sara's v1 Pipes RFC was more explicitly based on Hack's IIRC
I think it was abandoned for lack of support before it went to vote
 
Well, as an OCaml fan boy, I'd be happy with their simpler version. It's enough to disentangle certain program flows.
 
callable and expression would allow this:

$arr |> array_map('strlen', ?);

Only expression allows this:

$foo |> $$ + 10;

Only callable allows this:

$arr |> arrMap('strlen');

(Where arrMap() returns a callable, so that the position of the argument becomes irrelevant.)
@OlleHärstedt OCaml's version is literally exactly what the current patch I have does.
 
Oh, it's the PFA that's different, then?
I actually don't know how PFA interact with named args in OCaml. Never used it. Even more so together with pipes.
 
Callable and expression RHS are mutually exclusive.
PFA is, for pipe purposes, just a convenient way to produce single-argument functions from multi-argument functions. You can do the exact same thing manually with a short lambda; it's just more typing.
 
So if foo:fn passes, would a pipe v3 be relevant, without PFA?
@Crell Yes, got it.
 
4:08 PM
foo:fn would allow this:

$str |> strlen::fn;

But it would still force you to do to this:

$arr |> fn($x) => array_map(strlen::fn, $x);
Whereas pipes and PFA would have allowed this:

$arr |> array_map(strlen(?), ?);
 
Yeah
I don't mind that extra boilerplate atm. If you want to base a framework on it, that might be different. :)
 
If pipes pass, I am publishing a library with a bunch of arrMap() type functions to make it easier to do pointfree style. So a lot of use cases would not care about the lack of partials.
So, maybe I build the new RFC around that argument...
I have maybe 5 days in which to do it and bring it to a vote, though. :-(
 
This is another case when we, as good comp sci people, are actually just guessing. We don't have data over which function composition is most common, so when people say "it's too complex for the effort", you can't argue against it. :/
 
And I need to first redo the implementation, which I still need help on.
 
@Crell 5 days??
 
4:12 PM
@OlleHärstedt That is both true and disingenuous. Of course style X isn't popular when the tooling for style X isn't available. No one was using closures in PHP until we had closures, so the argument that "well no one is writing code like that, so we don't need closures" is both true and misleading.
Point free style in PHP is very rare today, because the language makes it fugly. :-) Would making point-free style less fugly make it more common? Anyone who claims to know the answer to that is lying to you.
@OlleHärstedt Need 2 weeks for voting before July 20-something, when feature freeze happens.
 
Right, the feature freeze
 
I'm still not sure how to change the eval order of pipes. Unfortunately the people who grok how function calls work in PHP are all very busy people. :-/
 
I'll just pop in to say ::fn is terrible. Thank you. That is all.
7
 
Heading out. My 2 cents: Feedback loop between RFC authors and voters could perhaps be improved. I was also thinking if the RFC should always start with motivating use-cases, and to avoid school-book examples at all cost, only use real-world examples. Sorry it got denied, in any case. :) I'm sure we can find a way forward, though. bbl
@Trowski Also always include why xD
 
4:27 PM
phpstorm EAP will bring in better support for signing with git.
just fyi.
 
4:38 PM
\o/
 
@Trowski Thanks for inviting us to your TED Talk :P
 
cmb
@Crell, could you please have a look at bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=81218? You did the respective PR, and I wonder why the reviewer didn't complain about "class parameters".
 
@cmb I think that was version-dependent, based on the comments that I have since deleted.
 
cmb
What is a class parameter?
generics?
 
I think it should have been properties.
3v4l.org/UJNrC - This... actually feels like a bug? Shouldn't it show the protected properties, too?
 
4:52 PM
@LeviMorrison he's been voting no more on things recently I think. My impression at least.
 
@Crell No, depends on context: php.net/get_object_vars
 
cmb
^ that (on scope)
According to 3v4l.org/GiCsF, the parent's properties have been returned since PHP 4.
I think we should delete that sentence.
 
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