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12:46 AM
 
12:57 AM
 
I'm not surprised, 17th april :P
 
look again
 
... had to correct my date there before Derick beheaded me
ehhhhh ffs, i was right the first time, Either way that's rather old
 
April 20th, 2017
 
close enough for 2am
 
Jpv
1:07 AM
Hey guys, wonder if this is good practice. when ever i have a chunk of html, i use output buffering. ob_start(); ... about 50 lines of html, opening and closing php tags to output data, not run logic... $html = ob_get_clean(); and return the html. is that good practice?
 
from what I've understood, anything using ob_ is probably bad
 
it's fine, just make sure you catch any exceptions and unwind it properly
 
Jpv
really??? i use ob_ a lot.... find it easier than <<eom
 
I generally have one function per codebase that takes a callback and returns a string of the buffered contents, handling any exceptions and then re-throwing
 
 
2 hours later…
3:05 AM
If you use PHP 7.4, but you haven't used any of the new features, and someone in an interview asks if you use 7.4, should I say yes? I mean, technically I use it lol
 
Jpv
Read this and you should be good stitcher.io/blog/new-in-php-74
 
3:19 AM
Just subscribe to the internals mailing list... and occasionally make popcorn...
And goodnight for reals this time
 
nn
 
3:33 AM
I don't know how I ever thought Windows was a better operating system
 
morning all
 
 
2 hours later…
5:23 AM
Good morning.
 
6:22 AM
\o
 
6:58 AM
PHP PDO mysqlnd ignores InnoDB deadlock errors ・ PDO MySQL ・ #79914
 
 
2 hours later…
8:42 AM
What version of SQLite3 PHP uses that the SQLite3::backup is not avail heap.space/xref/php-src/ext/sqlite3/sqlite3.c?r=302933da#1361
Oh, ok nvm. I've checked on a Docker nightly image build from master that we do have SQLite3::backup for PHP8
 
9:24 AM
Since SQLite3 database :memory: are distinct between open handlers and ext/sqlite3 and ext/pdo_sqlite use sqlite3_open_v2 these databases are distinct.
I thought I'd be able to use backup to load SQLite3 database from file into memory so the PDO can use the :memory: database which is loaded from file but it looks like it's not possible
Is this a matter of adding extra methods here github.com/php/php-src/blob/master/ext/pdo_sqlite/… in sqlite_driver to add ability to call sqlite3_backup_* functions family?
Within PDO SQLite3 driver ?
I guess it is the way to add it like php.net/manual/en/pdo.sqlitecreatecollation.php
One thing weird I see is these methods are bound to the PDO object instead of some fancy PDODriver derivates which implement them
That is not how I'd expect that... but maybe I'm wrong and it's ok
 
@Jpv you only need to use one question mark. Any more than that and you sound either like a crazy person or really angry.
@Alesana something along the lines of "I'm also in the process of interviewing with some other companies (don't name them) and that you want to be fair to those companies and complete their interview process, and then be able to decide which position might be the best long term fit for you."
tbh, this situation is not normally a problem.....and if a company is hassling you to accept an offer before you're ready, that's a really bad sign about that company.
 
cmb
9:49 AM
@brzuchal every memory database is distinct; you cannot connect to an already existing memory DB (see sqlite.org/inmemorydb.html)
 
@cmb Yes, realised that one sentence earlier
@cmb that's why I think the backup functions deserves to be added as an extension methods to PDO just like others driver related
Am I the only one thinking of extracting such methods into separate classes like PDODriver interface and PDOSQLite3Driver class which implements it and the same for other extension PDO drivers?
IMHO it'd be more expected to live in a separate classes which can be reflected and the documentation would be easier to find then I guess.
Also these would not be a methods which are registered on PDO class because sometimes they exist there and sometimes not.
Instead of:
if ($db->getAttribute(PDO::ATTR_DRIVER_NAME) == 'mysql')
It'd be possible to use for eg.:
if ($db->driver instanceof PDOMySQLDriver)
if ($db->getDriver() instanceof PDOMySQLDriver) // respectively
 
10:12 AM
Who should I bribe to test this PDO patch and possibly pull it? bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=79914
 
Also I'd see there place for SQLite3::backup for eg. $db->getDriver()->backup($otherDb, $srcDbName, $dstDbName)
 
cmb
@brzuchal, yes, that's a long standing issue. There is some work in github.com/php/php-src/pull/5765; maybe you want to have a closer look?
 
10:37 AM
@NikiC Can I bother you for a recording on the namespace thing on Monday? I've nothing lined up for next Thursday :-)
 
11:05 AM
안녕하세요
 
umask parameter ・ Unknown/Other Function ・ #79915
 
@Jeeves is that dependent on what user the code is executed as and what permission levels they have?
 
> I think that the best way to understand umask is to say that umask is used to revoke permissions, not to set permissions.
a useful user note.....such rarity.
 
Let me delete it quickly
 
11:21 AM
@PeeHaa or downvote it into oblivion
@Danack will you update the plan with scheduled talks? (i.e. who's giving a talk), or will it be determined during the thing?
 
So far, no one has volunteered to talk....was going to hassle people later but now also seems good. Who's got a short talk they want to give?
2
For the "Whats your favourite feature of PHP 8" and "What's cool about XYZ?" can sign people up either now or during the chat bit before the start.
@GabrielCaruso youtube chat certainly is a useful thing, and not a massive waste of electrons. /s
 
11:39 AM
@Danack I always disable it, impossible to follow
 
Not if you only have ~100 people :-)
 
Jul 10 at 13:12, by Sebastian Bergmann
@Danack Feel free to hassle me.
Could've sworn there were one or two other people who spoke up, but can't remember when they said something
 
Inconsistency when modifying date ・ Date/time related ・ #79916
 
12:28 PM
one serious reason against @@ is that it would be i believe the only statement/declaration (?) in PHP that has no ending or closing delimiter, its always , ; ) */ } ] or EOL
correct me if i am wrong, thought about all kinds of statements or declarations for 10 minutes
 
12:42 PM
Segfault with a static variable ・ opcache ・ #79917
 
@cmb Will do so, thx
 
cmb
ta
 
@beberlei Well true, only empty statement need no ending :)
 
1:23 PM
@beberlei There is a ) ending delimiter if there are arguments.
In practice they will probably always be delimited by EOL, even if this isn't required. I think this is also the case in other languages like Java.
 
@TheodoreBrown Are you dutch?
 
That's an odd question. He didn't sound Dutch when I spoke with him on the podcast :-)
 
youtube.com/watch?v=lITBGjNEp08 because this seems relevant if so.
 
@TheodoreBrown What is there are no arguments?
 
@TheodoreBrown no, they will not, there will be lots of single line multi attribute declarations. every other statement or declaration to my knowledge has exactly one detemenistic end symbol
for @@ it is either EOL, whitespace or )
maybe if we enforce ()
 
1:39 PM
Would likely work for simple cases, although it seems like a workaround for the open / close tag solution.
 
I really do not like using attribute(Attribute, ...) ... it looks like python, dunno if that's just me
 
as a small nitpick, "use attribute" is probably better reusing the existing keyword
 
\o
 
o/
 
1:45 PM
@beberlei "Why not use a keyword instead?" was actually part of the discussion section of the Shorter Attribute Syntax RFC.
@beberlei I think it's expected that attributes lack an ending symbol when they don't have arguments. As I recall this is true in all languages using the @Attr syntax.
 
tbh I think we should just go with @@
At this point
 
would it make things easier to enforce empty () at the end?
 
@NikiC Please say that on list.
 
@Sara you have the power to make it so :)
 
With moderate power comes moderate responsibility
 
1:52 PM
That's probably unlikely to change the wider sentiment against it.
 
I wouldn't extend the syntax override deadline for just anyway, but Derick is on the short list.
@MarkR I think you underestimate Niki's fan-club
 
@MarkR haha the namespace operator rants went on for months and re-started again when people started actually using 5.3
no matter the choice, we will constantly relive this
 
Sure, but after beta3 the window to change this is closed. CLO-SED. CERRADO. SHUT. DONE.
 
In all honesty I don't realllly care which wins out so long as it doesn't come back to bite us in the arse later.
 
@Sara we'll just declare 8.0.0 a failed release and start over with PHP 9.
 
1:55 PM
sigh
 
Nobody likes odd numbers, I even skipped 7.4.0beta3
 
No, we'll start over with 7.5, 7.6, 7.7, then 9.0
 
Ah right :-D
 
I was going to make a joke about just going straight to 10 like Windows but that was done because people were detecting 95/98 using 9 and a wildcard
(at least that's the rumor)
 
2:20 PM
@PeeHaa @MarkR I have been listening to this compilation for about three weeks now and have not got tired of it yet. I have time marked this one at a specific track I want you to check out and see what you think. youtube.com/watch?v=XYoTrI5RE-k&t=77m
 
Sorry y'all, I tried to do a thing and it got taken to the bikeshed.
 
@StatikStasis The problem with these is it makes me wish I earned enough to be able to have my own orchestra.
 
@PeeHaa No rick-roll this time... I promise. =D
@MarkR lol - I love musical scores
@MarkR Check out the first track on it too. The only complaint I have with the first track though, is there is a very light sound that plays deep in the background that sounds like my cellphone ring. I wear headphones at work so I think that it is my phone sometimes because it sounds like it ringing with them on.
 
use attr: Deprecated endattr
 
@joepferguson You have a cat in your avatar... all is forgiven. =)
 
2:27 PM
<3
 
2:49 PM
I have to regularly suppress the urge to squee when I see a kitty in an avatar
 
@cmb Thanks for the merge! Your thoughts on preloading not populating the _once cache being a bug? @NikiC?
 
3:24 PM
If I want to learn the opcache extension, where should I start? Please, don't say its code, I've tried and failed miserably :(
 
@GabrielCaruso which part of OpCache
 
Morning all.
 
o/
 
@Girgias Its general purpose. AFAIK it has a bunch of modules, right? Analyze dead code, optimization, preload, etc.
 
@joepferguson the phpcs / static anlaysis argument is not really an issue imho, because its about forward compatbility, which cannot be guaranteed for many static analysis things, independent of attributes, could be any other new syntax. combined with nikitas comment that #[] in turn would potentially cause problems for php-parser it feels like a standoff
@joepferguson sorry i didn't want to put words in your mouth about wanting to revote, process wise it would have been a revote thats why i formulated it that way
 
3:27 PM
@GabrielCaruso Yeah, I'm no expert in OpCache I haven't looked at it really, but there are indeed various modules. But then the dead code analysis + optimizations I think are part of the SCCP passes
 
@beberlei No worries, I was trying to reign the conversation back towards something productive (imho)
 
@Girgias SCCP, DCE (Dead Code Elimination), etc. All under opcache, right?
 
Indeed
 
@GabrielCaruso chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/49647335#49647335 possibly this? I know @IluTov asked a question about understanding opcache, but I can't remember the question exactly, and @NikiC suggested that to him.
 
cmb
@Crell not sure if that's to be considered a bug, or just something that one needs to be aware of.
 
3:31 PM
@Tiffany Thank you very much, I didn't know about this paper. I'll read it
 
@GabrielCaruso it's Niki's bachelor thesis :P
 
cmb
@GabrielCaruso that's under opcache/Optimizer; there's also opcache/jit (for JIT); and the toplevel folder is about caching (and also preloading)
 
@Tiffany Fancy, I've found the GitHub repo where it lives: github.com/nikic/nikic.github.com/tree/master/pdf
 
My reasoning for it being a bug: For autoloaded code, you can let the autoloader handle dev and preload with opcache_compile_file(), and everything's fine. For function libraries, how can you tell if your file has already been preloaded? It won't break to require() it a second time, per my testing, but I don't know what the performance implications are of parsing it a second time. Nor how to test it effectively.
 
@cmb Nice, looks like there's a bunch of stuff to read. I'll make sure to ask stuff around once I start to understand it, thanks :D
 
cmb
3:35 PM
@Crell well, is the file even parsed, or does OPcache notice that it's already preloaded?
 
Code in it gets executed a second time.
 
cmb
that might not be intended
 
I saw we make the syntax be: 🙌 Attribute(...)🤦‍♀️
Then we have a nice ending delimiter which reflects the feature process.
 
a picture of a bikeshed, or a paint can, though that's slightly ambiguous
 
🚲🏚️ <--- Need a combining joiner in there
 
3:40 PM
->
arrow operator all the things
 
Unrelated, why do I keep typing "I say" as "I saw" ? That's been cropping in a TON lately.
 
🎩🌲🥾
 
monopoly pieces?
must have racecar
 
(hat)(tree)(boot) I'm sorry...
 
🧍🧍‍♀️🧍‍♂️📷📺
 
3:47 PM
hmmmm.. not getting there
 
person, woman, man, camera, tv
2
 
very. stable. genius.
 
4:16 PM
Software written before new syntax does not support new syntax. shocked_pikachu.jpg
 
OMG when I sent §[] I was clearly joking yesterday
 
It's quite easy to type §[, it's just Alt-Gr, s, o, [
 
what is Gr on a keyboard?
and I'm not the only one who hyphenates key combinations, hah!
 
@beberlei There's tons of options that are unambiguous, but maybe a little unconventional. Theres <Attr>, |Attr, ^Attr, %Attr, /Attr, @=Attr or any combination of those paired with some other grouping symbol like [], <> or ().
 
I guess AltGr isn't something on EN-US keyboards
 
4:23 PM
@Tiffany just right alt, I guess?
 
it doesn't appear I can use it as a key modifier though :(
 
Alt-Gr is my right alt key
My US keyboard
 
@Derick I do § with a single key press §§§§§§§
 
@IluTov None if these have an ending demarcation, which is my biggest bug bear.
 
@brzuchal is this a symbol commonly used in Polish?
 
4:26 PM
@Derick Second half of my sentence ;)
 
I must read more.
 
morns
 
@Derick And alternatively we could make the parentheses mandatory. I'd guess most attributes take a parameter.
 
@Tiffany not at all got an US international keyboard layout in Macbook Pro commonly chosen in Poland, I'd expect a tilde and backtick to be on the left of 1 but now there is § instead and the right button with tilde and backtick is between Left-Shift and Z
Or English international - dunno which one is that one but it's weird
 
that is weird
 
4:29 PM
I'm wondering about representing a call graph in PHP. Normal calls and such are a tree; with generators they become potentially cyclic graphs, right?
 
Whenever you go to iSpot we see laptops with §
 
@LeviMorrison I guess similarly as to how you'd represent an iterator loop
 
I used to have a steelseries 6gv2 which had an international layout (I think), but the only difference was the key for \| was to the right of my right-shift key
 
@LeviMorrison Just like for loops?
Or rather, recursive functions?
 
Right.
I think I'm not interested in the call graph, but something similar. Need to think more about it.
 
4:33 PM
a generator is essentialy the regular call until the first yield, and then returning closures of each successive piece of code that gets executed
maybe by adding the start+end lines?
generatorFn():1-2, generatorFn():3-10, generatorFn():17-17
 
Generators make a new heap. When new calls are made from the generator, do they use the generator's heap? I'm realizing right now that my low-level understanding of generators is pretty weak.
 
"a generator is a normal function that keeps returning closures" makes a lot of sense for some reason
 
4:46 PM
 
nice
 
those are pre-recorded videos fwiw
 
@FlorianMargaine ten-minute videos, user-submitted, still cool :D
 
All symbols: !"%&()*+,-./:;<=>?@[\]^`{|}~
Unambiguous start symbols: %*/<=>^|
 
22 hours ago, by Crell
This is the shed that never ends. Yes it gets on and on my friends. Some people started painting it not knowing what it was, and they'll continue painting it forever just because...
 
4:58 PM
@FlorianMargaine "No, but if it helps, yes."
 
There's probably hundreds of possible combinations. The simplest (and probably best) alternatives to the ones already proposed are >Attr(), ^Attr(), |Attr(), with mandatory parens or with some other grouping (like %[Attr]).
@Tiffany Hey I'm just trying to help :P
I don't even care all that much, I would've been happy with <<Attr>>, @@Attr or #[Attr].
I just want attributes to land in 8.0 :(
 
@IluTov I know... I've just reached that point where I want to stick my head in the sand
or stick my fingers in my ears, singing "la la la la la la" to myself
I reached that point yesterday when we started getting suggestions that have already been suggested and turned away in the attributes RFC discussion (using keywords)
 
@cmb Should I file it as a bug then and see what happens?
 
What did I click on.
lol
 
@Tiffany function attribute 😳
Too short, make it longer xD
 
@IluTov okay, I have a question, are you on a mobile device? how are you using emoji so easily?
 
@Tiffany macOS has a built in emoji picker (ctrl + cmd + space). As does Windows (windows + .). Some Linux distros do too.
 
interesting, didn't know that... I'll have to mess with it when I'm not already multitasking :X
 
@Tiffany 🤐
 
5:31 PM
that windows widget is super-handy, it has a bunch of symbols and accented letters in, too
 
5:42 PM
@IluTov The reason I made the parentheses optional in my RFC was that an attribute is conceptually a constructor call, and new ClassName doesn't require parentheses. Secondly, it is consistent with other languages using the @attr syntax.
 
@TheodoreBrown Either way, as no terminating symbol seems to be the main complaint about @@ making () mandatory would solve that.
 
Having () at the end isn't helping with a start/end marker.
 
6:05 PM
@Derick Where do you see an ambiguity problem with mandatory ()?
I'm not even convinced the parens need to be mandatory but anyway.
 
 
1 hour later…
7:07 PM
@Derick having ) as end for sure is better than having to look for whitespace or EOL
 
Using @@ presumably means that grouping is off the cards for the future, right?
 
yes
 
toituiburo ・ *General Issues ・ #79918
 
@MarkR Is grouping really useful though? Something tells me people will stick with non-grouped attributes like they do with use and we'll end up supporting a syntax that nobody really uses.
 
I think it's a secondary point at best. My main point was and remains the issues regarding future extensibility, in particular, modifiers. Other languages may not use them, but PHP is something a bit different when it comes to language evolution
 
7:23 PM
@MarkR I have honestly stopped following the discussion at some point, can you elaborate on your main concern?
 
I gave various examples and such in the mailing list, it would likely be more expedient to just search for my name.
 
@MarkR Modifiers on attributes? Yeah that's pretty unlikely to happen, that's like metadata on metadata.
 
Wouldn't bet the house on it.
 
@MarkR no other language has this, this is fairy tales, there is no use case
 
@MarkR I'm not totally convinced any of these arguments would be raised if @ was available and wouldn't be total non-issues in that case.
 
7:36 PM
Yes, but if @ was available, PHP would probably be a language with a lot better error handling :-)
 
@MarkR Sure but that's a completely different issue :) If we used a different symbol for error suppression nobody would compare the two.
 
@@ won, IMO, because people are used to seeing @ in docblock comments. I believe that is the core reason.
 
@MarkR Very possible, and that is honestly pretty reasonable.
 
 
We shall see. Unlike most I have taken the time to provide clear examples of what sort of things I think we might want to accommodate in future, whether or not people believe those specific examples are realistic or not is a personal view. If it remains @@ and then bites us in the ass down the line, at least I tried.
 
7:50 PM
@MarkR I'm not saying that your personal motivation but for sure a lot of people are coming up with reasons that they wouldn't otherwise if they didn't have a personal distaste for the syntax. Which is sad because then genuine concerns get lost.
@beberlei @TheodoreBrown Having thought about this a little bit today, there's probably no syntax that is drastically better than any of the options that were already proposed. There's %Attr which is kinda like but again it's not significantly better. It's a little easier on the eyes, is a little shorter (not that that matters) and has zero BC break. Sadly, I think no matter what we propose there will always be a large portion of voters unhappy with the choice.
The #[] counterpart would be %[] which also has zero BC breaks but won't help with migration. I think that's a moot point anyway, if we really cared about that we'd introduce some preprocessor directive like #if php_version >= '8.0'.
 
8:11 PM
i still have opcache attributes todo until tuesday
 
Last time I tried job searching a year and a half ago I had a really hard time convincing people I was a good developer. Now I'm job searching and I'm getting swamped with calls. It's insane. I guess it's a good problem to have but it's pretty stressful lol
 
I wish I had that problem...
 
8:26 PM
You just need to apply to a bunch of different places. I spent two days just applying to 15 different places
 
which sites?
and you think I haven't applied at a bunch of different places? granted I haven't applied to 15 in two days...
 
Indeed and LinkedIn
 
hmmm
 
I took the week off and am spending more time job searching than I was working
 
sounds like it's definitely time to change jobs :-P
I hear there are lucrative careers to be had working the bins
 
8:39 PM
yeah Trig (you should get that reference......)
 
@bwoebi *10
@Tiffany I mean that was obviously a joke but at the same time, I genuinely have heard that it's a pretty decent career if you can deal with it, you get paid shitloads (and rightly so)
 
I wouldn't be able to... I've thought about trying to get a job where my sister works, but I don't think I'd be able to handle it
I'm almost certain I fail the "must be able to lift 50 pounds" requirement for some jobs
 
8:54 PM
I have been offered a job at a new start up, the salary is quite good and I am the only one they are hiring with "good" experience, most of the others are either fresh graduates or with 1-2 years of experience.
And I have been given the chance to choose my own designation, and I can't come up with a proper one, so I thought I should ask you guys. Any suggestions?
 
What are the options?
 
I am currently a "Principal Software Engineer", I want something that is better than this but not too much better.
@SalOrozco ^
 
You are making that money.
What country are you from?
 
Pakistan
 
How are the Salaries in Pakistan compare to the US?
 
8:58 PM
very very bad :)
 
Ever think of moving to a different location.
 
Yeah, I will soon be moving to Germany, my fiance is there. And by soon I mean in over a year, apparently the process it too long and the pandemic has slowed it down even more.
I just want to make sure I have good CV by the time I get there, so that is why I am looking for a good job title, that will look good on the cv and that I won't be under-qualified for.
 
@mega6382 Are you going to be writing code or managing the team?
 
I have been part of the hiring process at the company I work for. I see a lot of guys have lead developer, lead engineer. A lot of the times their skills are not on par with that title.
 
@Crell They want me to be doing both, they want someone in a leading role, but he should also help out in writing code and make decisions about infrastructure and stacks etc.
 
9:05 PM
The latter could possibly justify an "Architect" title.
If you're more managing, then "director of engineering" is a possibility.
 
@Crell Yes, but that is too high, I will not be able to get that job at a bigger company, so it won't look good on my cv. I want a title that I can maintain and carry over to a new job afterward.
@Crell I was thinking about "Chief Architect" or "Chief Software Architect", it seems higher than PSE, but not too high that I might not qualify for it.
any opinions on that?
 
Depending on the company that could mean vastly different things.
 
how about "Principal Software Architect" just substitute engineer with architect.
 
Being a one-man full stack developer, ... I have no idea what my title would even be, I usually use Lead Software Engineer
 
@MarkR but wouldn't that be at the level of "Senior Software Engineer"
 
9:13 PM
It's a very broad role
Technically Im a consultant though
 
Lead Software Architect, how does that sound?
 
I've used that too :-)
 
I've never liked "architect"
 
Keywords.
 
9:20 PM
@FlorianMargaine you are a VP, right? you must be able to help with this, you must manage many people on these positions, what do you think is a good title? that you think would look good on a cv?
 
Lead Software Architect Engineer
 
@mega6382 how big is the engineering team?
 
to start with 20 people, but they will be hiring more in September and later.
 
what is the title of your boss?
wait, you have to manage 20 people by yourself?
 
CEO, I will be working directly under him.
 
9:23 PM
There gets to a point where you just need to go all royalty on it..... Lord Randall, Leader of the Software Engineers, Architect of the system. First born of the operations. Wizard of the clouds.
 
then CTO or VP
 
@FlorianMargaine Yes, there are 3 mobile app developers that I will have nothing directly to do with, except for providing the backend, but yes.
 
Supreme Chancellor of Engineering
 
@Crell Ooo I like that
 
managing more than 5-10 people is not possible
 
9:24 PM
@FlorianMargaine How big is our engineering team again? :-)
 
I have almost ~10 direct reports
and it's too much
 
@FlorianMargaine Yes, those options are available, but I think that those might be too high for my skills and abilities, so if the company grows or if I move on, I will not be able to maintain those titles.
 
@mega6382 fake it till you make it
you will grow with the company
 
lol
Supreme Chancellor
 
9:26 PM
@FlorianMargaine hmmm, interesting.
 
and maintaining a title over companies is pointless
I've hired people that used to be CTO or CEO
nobody cares
 
Even if you're nominally stepping "down" from CTO to Senior Engineer, that you were CTO still looks good on your resume.
 
@FlorianMargaine I suppose so
 
I know for early-stage startups, the recommendation is to get the highest title you can when the company is forming, or else they'll hire someone else with that title later and put them above you.
 
CIO
 
9:28 PM
so, for your case, given that you report to the CEO, and given that you are going to be managing all technical things, get the CTO title.
 
@Crell yeah, sure like this is just a start up with a limited team, but at big enterprises the stakes are entirely different.
 
if he doesn't want to give you this title, get VP.
 
For me, and I guess this really depends on the size of the company. I've been the "CTO" of a 2 people startup, while the CTO of my current company actually has 0 relationship with technology, they just manage budgets for the technical department and have some say sometimes in recruitment
 
Personally I value autonomy and decent pay more than the title. I've stayed with the company I consult with for more than a decade because I work remotely, they don't look over my shoulder, and I have a near complete blank cheque to develop as I see fit
 
Yeah, the meaning of the title varies with the company, and company size.
 
9:30 PM
No commute, that means more free time.
 
For me, not so much
 
@FlorianMargaine CTO seems too managerial to me, VP too, but I think VP might be more technical, I don't know.
 
That's the downside to being a one man band so to speak, always on call, and no-one else to pick up the slack. I usually work 70+ hours per week.
 
@MarkR Yeah, the pay is much better it is at least 30% more, and I think that it will give me a lot more control and freedom, which might help me grow my skills a lot better than I can at my current position.
@pmmaga yeah, I mean every new start up usually has these 3 titles CEO, CTO, CFO and they don't have much meaning to them in those situations.
 
@SalOrozco Same with my company. Honestly being a part of the hiring and interview process has given me insane confidence being interviewed
 
9:34 PM
@mega6382 If you have 20 people reporting to you, you won't be spending much if any time developing anyway.
 
hahaha, I suppose so.
 
He is right.
That is a lot of people.
 
You'll literally spend 1/4 to 1/2 of your time just doing weekly 1:1s.
 
I expect I'll have to take on some subordinates and train them in the upcoming year, I admit to not feeling thrilled at the idea, although it makes sense for the business.
 
@Crell so true ...
 
9:39 PM
@FlorianMargaine I was thinking, if this is the case then why should I bother with those titles?
 
@Alesana Definitely gives you a different perspective.
Has anyone here tried to start their own company?
 
@Crell well there can be a hierarchy so that I don't have to deal with everyone 1:1, and that those working on one project/module will have lead among them that will do all the reporting etc, and the process can be fine-tuned over time.
 
Then you're definitely looking at VP type job titles or above.
 
@SalOrozco I have
 
hmmm
 
9:45 PM
With my friend
 
What kind of software?
 
Not software
Mobile Mechanic company
 
What kind of business?
I watched videos on that.
interesting
 
I convinced him to start his own thing being a mobile mechanic, made him a website, got it to the top of Google, started the LLC, etc...
Then when it was running well I got a job lol. Love that guy to death but he is not a good business partner
 
What he do?
 
9:47 PM
He's a mobile mechanic
 
Did not give you fair share.
 
Oh you mean as a business partner?
 
yeah
 
Nah he just would always bitch that I wasn't doing enough, and I was like I literally spent 12 hours last night working on social media presence
 
@Alesana lol, I thought he was a bad business partner because he was a mobile mechanic. :D
 
9:47 PM
lol
haha
 
I think the joke went over my head lol
Oh since I responded that way xD
 
yes
 
He's my best friend, he has a kid but was working as a server. He was trying to make extra money with mechanic gigs so I convinced him to start his own thing
 
There is a market for that.
 
Even though it didn't work out us working together I'm glad he has a much more stable income now and can support his kid and such. I wouldn't have wanted to stay doing that for too long anyways.
I still help him out with updates and stuff when he needs it
 
9:50 PM
mobile mechanics.
 
yup
 
@Alesana so, he is still using that site?
 
Yup
 
@mega6382 CTO is not necessarily managerial, it's whatever you want it to be
 
Started a second one for him for detailing too, I didn't put as much work into it but he has some clients for that too
 
9:51 PM
Recently learned how to do a few things to my truck.
Change oil, change the battery, brakes. It all seems easy with Youtube.
 
??? when you guys say mobile, are you talking about mobile phones or mobile "cars"?
 
Yeah I was surprised at how easy some of the jobs we pay hundreds for are
Cars, but he goes out to them
So no overhead costs
 
I was thinking it was about mobile phones, :D
 
Only thing I seen people complain in the videos is that the people go out and just watch you the entire time to see what you are doing lol
 
The vm interrupt; I can't exactly tell when it is triggered. From what I've seen, it's done on each fcall begin and VM back edge. What about JIT'd code? What about fcalls ending? Any other places it triggers?
/cc @beberlei and @NikiC
 
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