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01:00 - 15:0015:00 - 00:00

3:00 PM
@beberlei regarding the article I think it'd be better to replace blacklist with exclude list as most of it describes a list of filenames opcache should skip I guess
 
"You need to see color" is valid, but not taken to the point of "see color in absolutely everything." anything good can be taken to an extreme where it is counter-productive.
 
And btw. colors always have been assigned a meaning … white (light) has always been something good/pure, and black rather a saddening color (darkness).
even in african cultures
 
@bwoebi yeah, but that justification doesn't mean it cannot be replaced with a meaningful name, right?
 
@brzuchal sure, but while blocklist makes sense, something like a passlist or allowlist … these words sound alien to me
and then we end up with whitelist and by extension its analog of blacklist
@brzuchal and btw. whitelist and blacklist are meaningful, by our assigned meanings to the colors white and black.
There are things like the master/slave issue, where I agree that there exist more precise words
 
3:16 PM
@bwoebi I'll try to choose naming carefully in places where these blacklist white lists exists now
 
@brzuchal btw. I agree on using blocklist if we block something with that, but that's just because that name is more adequate.
 
@Crell hmmm, your argument about allowing attributes in code that should be php 7 + 8 compatible with #[] has not corssed my mind before
its is a compelling angle
 
@beberlei Yeah, I found that interesting as well
The fact that those comments are not accessible via getDocComment() might be a bit of a problem to make them seamlessly work...
 
that is something nicolas wrote to me, but i didn'T understand, now it clicked
 
I don't think we can reasonably allow docblock tags to turn into attributes cleanly, but it at least makes new-attributes not a syntax break.
Probably not the biggest concern, but one worth noting.
 
3:20 PM
@NikiC it would allow to do

/** @DoctrineAnnotation */
#[AttributeThatdoesTheSame]
 
And I aesthetically like #[] better than @@ or << >>, in my entirely subjective opinion.
 
i discounted the syntax completly because # is a comment, i think using it would still have downsides in that respect
 
@Tiffany :-)
 
I think it would depend on the syntax highlighter you're using. I use IntelliJ so I'm sure @NikiC can make sure it's good. :-)
 
@salathe thanks
 
3:23 PM
Do tell me if you've had enough of the back and forth (I think we're getting there).
 
the problem with #[] would be multiple attributes on one declaration, #[Foo] #[Bar] would just be quite confusing in context to # as a comment
 
not once you were used to it
it's only like using * or & as both unary and binary operators with completely different meanings, which plenty of languages do
 
whos up for doing the next attributes syntax RFC? :D
 
/me hides.
 
I propose !£$%^&*Attribute*&^%$£!
 
3:27 PM
That also goes to the single line vs multi-line question.
That changes which syntax has which gotchas.
 
I imagine that will depend on the use case
something like ORM or HTTP Routing is going to be a long parameterised attribute on its own line
 
PHP 8.1 deprecations: attributes (we couldn't decide on the syntax after all, sorry, so they're gone) :P
7
 
What about #[foo] [bar] ?
@salathe :cat-scream:
 
but something like #[Jit] #[NeverInline] is quite reasonable on one line
I don't think the extra # is a problem; for a parser that sees it as a comment, the whole line will be ignored / highlighted as a unit anyway
for a parser that knows to look for the new token, a space between is no different from a newline
 
I think <<Jit, NeverInline>> is prefectly fine
 
3:30 PM
yeah, I'm perfectly OK with that
 
@salathe just remove them after PHP 8.0RC6
 
@bwoebi grouped syntax does not looks that its passing (atm)
 
Sure, there's time yet!
 
as I mentioned on the ML, @@Jit @@NeverInline looks kind of bold and fussy
like someone's got a biro that doesn't work very well and has to keep scribbling to get it to write :P
 
We all know that @ is the one true attribute operator, and we just need to do something about the shutup operator first. *raspberry*
 
3:32 PM
the more i see the syntax differences, i think the importance is any kind of ending delimiter
 
cmb
@IMSoP I'm not against that, but it is unfortunate, that we moved these function to ext/standard in PHP 7.2.
 
@salathe I'll try to fix the indentation, but it's difficult for me to notice it (bad eyesight). I tried fixing it as best as I could before committing on the PR, but I guess it's still not good.
well, bad eyesight and the editor I'm using doesn't make it easily noticeable...
 
@cmb yeah, I'll have to look what exactly came out last time it was discussed, and why it ended up that way
 
@Tiffany It's just that everything inside that new section needs one more space at the beginning... it's not a problem and could be fixed separately in a "whitespace fix" commit. :)
 
3:40 PM
@salathe regarding parent/sub-class, this is why I used the "optional" description: chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/49484245#49484245
 
@cmb thanks; I'll make sure to read through before re-proposing any changes
 
cmb
ta
 
@IMSoP Yes that should be totally fine from the parsers perspective.
 
Wondering if a revote on syntax should be majority wins and be vs the selected syntax so that it is lile the secondary vote on the original rfc. Otherwise all will be 2/3
 
@beberlei I think that would make sense.
 
4:06 PM
@beberlei I agree and think <<Attribute>> is preferable over any of the other options suggested.
 
If it's @@ isn't that AtAtAttribute? ... Like, PHP got a serious stutter
 
maybe we should rename them "tributes"
 
@@tributes
 
I can get behind that
 
@salathe changes applied, please review :P
assuming Travis says it's okay, at least
 
4:36 PM
checks history... see no mention yet.

Anyone having issues with fetching content from //repo.packagist.org ?
 
@DarrenFelton looks like it a bit.
 
seems to work just so slow that it times out or something
```
Updating dependencies (including require-dev)
Content-Length mismatch, received 482135 bytes out of the expected 1702355
http://repo.packagist.org could not be fully loaded, package information was loaded from the local cache and may be out of date
```
derp, markdown not supported
 
Travis is pretty slow too, but I dunno if that's normal...
@DarrenFelton it doesn't work in multi-line
 
@DarrenFelton long story....try the sandbox rooms. but > is a comment, and indent by 4 for code.
 
been a while since I been in here. thanks for the reminder.
 
4:40 PM
.
interesting
ctrl-K does something different now
 
This isn't the greatest syntax in the world, this is just a @@tribute.
 
no syntax highlighting yet...
 
4:54 PM
@NikiC Can you add github.com/php/php-src/commit/… to UPGRADING.INTERNALS please?
 
@beberlei Then there would be duplicate attributes that need to be kept in sync, though.
I actually tried changing the RFC examples to use `#[]` instead of `@@`: https://gist.github.com/theodorejb/e1048650c31512b149d898dcd76e89b8
Existing PHP syntax highlighters treat `#[` as a comment, though, which doesn't help readability.
Arguments against #[]: Slightly more verbose, larger BC break, more difficult to type.
@Trowski Why do you think <<>> is preferable over @@?
 
5:27 PM
@Crell Using @@ as the new attribute syntax also isn't a syntax break. :D Just make an empty function with the same name as the attribute and you have backwards compatibility.
 
huh?
 
@TheodoreBrown i guess all of that is subjective again. :) I was wondering if we should do a threeway vote on <<>> vs @@ vs #[] for simple majority, other than a 2/3 vote for @@ and potentially another 2/3 vote for #[]
 
@Crell Hmm, I guess it wouldn't work since a function call would need a semicolon.
 
Ultimately this is a mostly-subjective question.
 
To me @@ just feels like syntax that has been chosen because @ wasn't possible but I don't have that feeling with #[]. The BC break is probably larger than @@ but still arguably smaller than something like the match keyword.
 
5:35 PM
If you're going to do a multi-vote, it should be a ranked-choice or approval vote. Plurality votes are awful.
 
@Crell Yeah, agreed.
 
For something this subjective, an approval vote or ranked approval vote is probably the best way to do it.
All of the quasi-objective measures are small in all directions.
 
The thing is, IMO RFC votes with more than two options should be avoided. I think it's better when an RFC takes a stance and lays out the objective reasons for it and against other options.
From a "looks" perspective I think #[] equally readable to @@, but it's a bigger BC break, 50% more verbose, and (at least for me) noticeably more difficult to type.
 
"50% more verbose", that is beyond dramatic, it's one character.
 
I think we should just introduce transferable votes and solve the entire problem.
 
5:54 PM
@TheodoreBrown It is probably a bigger BC break. I could still just find one case on grep.app. @@ is pretty hard to search for because there are tons of false positives.
@TheodoreBrown I do agree it's harder to type as it's two different special characters instead of the same one twice. How much harder will depend on the keyboard layout.
 
@IluTov Yeah. I just know when I was trying to type out the RFC examples with that syntax I kept typoing it as #] or #\.
 
@TheodoreBrown Btw every time you edit the message you ping the person you mentioned :D I got like 10 notifications.
 
Sorry! Couldn't get the markdown escaping to work.
 
6:15 PM
@MarkR I looked at a STV plugin, it didn't exist
 
That's a shame =\
 
The verbosity argument is a red herring, frankly, on all of them.
 
@TheodoreBrown I used a slightly naive search string " #[" to rule out some of the false positives. It's probably a more. Either way, the BC break is very low compared to something like a keyword that we have added in minor versions before.
 
There are ample off-wiki RCV tools if we're willing to use that. I did a review of them early this year. I still have the blog post around somewhere where I collected said data.
 
@cmb Can I get php 8.0 on appveyor yet?
@Crell They all would be hard to use, as they needed email invitations etc. I checked for PHP 8.0 RM selection
Or, where expensive.
 
think so
 
Hm. And the voter list is so confusingly defined as is... :-)
 
7:00 PM
I could write a proper script for this... instead of my sort of automated spreadsheet
 
7:35 PM
@TheodoreBrown Personal preference if lists of attributes will be allowed.
 
Looks like the php-src build is broken on master... :(
 
@AlexD It's green on CI at least
 
It expects zend_attributes.o to be built, but its not
So ld fails to link the CLI SAPI
 
@AlexD ./buildconf && ./config.nice
 
Thanks.
 
 
1 hour later…
8:51 PM
@salathe you committed it via SVN, but didn't merge the PR?
or does merging PRs from github and having them added to SVN not work yet...
 
It's one-directional... change in SVN, mirrored to git.php.net, mirrored to GitHub.
 
cmb
@Derick yes, that should be possible. AppVeyor supports VS2019, but obviously, instead of using PHP releases, you'd need to use master snapshots, what would need some tweaks. I'll try to come up with something this week.
 
ah :(
 
9:11 PM
@salathe One Directional: youtube.com/watch?v=QJO3ROT-A4E
 
@StatikStasis ...
 
9:32 PM
> There is a compilation here: While fopen() itself defaults to binary mode, some other functions like proc_open() on pipe descriptors still default to text mode. The default for these functions should be swapped for PHP 8, independently of this deprecation proposal.
@NikiC, was this meant to say complication?
.
 
@Andrea so can I "pick" your RFC document, add my name on it, bring it back on Internals and reuse your base implementation?
 
@Girgias you are welcome to bring it up on internals again and add yourself as contributor, or something along those lines
 
Okay cheers will do then :)
I'll probably CC you in the initial email
 
oof
 
:D
@NikiC Re: DateTime::ISO8601, I think the problem is that many people's conception of “ISO 8601” is actually the RFC 3339 profile. Maybe we should 1) highlight it in the docs, and 2) add DateTime::RFC_3339 as an alias of DateTime::ATOM?
 
9:39 PM
I was an enterprise WordPress developer (yes, I know), but I resigned from my job because I like to write architecture diagrams, tests, and SOLID - this is not a part of WP culture and I was banging my head against a wall there. I'm looking for a new language to learn, I thought I could be happy in Java, given it's the mother of OOP, but since I'm starting anew, I was also considering something cooler like Go, so I don't get stuck doing maintenance work on legacy applications for a living.
What do you guys think? I'm asking this because most PHP jobs here in Brazil are underpaid.
So I'm considering switching away from PHP because of salaries as well
 
Rust? But I have no clue about what is good in Brazil
 
@LucasBustamante go is a nice complement to PHP imo. btw there's an interesting crossover project - en.reddit.com/r/PHP/comments/gulp5h/…
 
I don't imagine Haskell is something big in any country but that's also a different programming paradigm
 
@Girgias I haven't used it, so I shouldn't comment that loudly, but multiple people who have used Rust have said that it's great, for the first 90% of a project, but then getting the last part done is a bit of a nightmare.
 
Well me neither cause I have trouble investing myself in it
Because well I'm just doing small basic stuff and PHP just does the job for me
Like I'm even using it for my math studies lol
 
9:49 PM
Similar. In my final year at uni, as a physics project we were assigned to write a program to calculate, "nuclear magnetic resonance graphs for magic angle spinning". They wanted us to do it in Fortran on the mainframe.....but I had my trusty 486sx......
 
I must say PHP does the job perfectly due to how well OpCache can optimize stuff
Like it goes from 8s in dev to 0.3s in prod
 
I really like PHP, too, actually.
My problem is mostly cultural
Do you guys get time to write architectural diagrams before writing code?
 
I'm a math student, so no
 
@LucasBustamante that's not a problem that fixing would solve much for the bad companies I worked at....
 
@Danack But then again, isn't the last 10% a nightmare in any project regardless of the language?
 
10:03 PM
Java is the mother of it's particular flavor of OOP. That's not the only kind of OOP. :-)
Does anyone write architectural diagrams anymore? Is that even a thing?
 
@IluTov yes, but the difference is for other languages the last 10% turns out to be another 90%. But for Rust, multiple people have said, you get to there and realise that you have some bad assumptions in the code that mean that finishing the last bit is a technical nightmare, not just a lot more work.
 
I haven't seen anyone pre-write arch diagrams that end up being actually useful since... ever?
 
@Crell I do for data flows.......like the redis instances is here. These services talk to it. And where those services push their data......
 
You're the first.
 
> for the bad companies I worked at....
 
10:06 PM
@Crell We had this project to revamp a certain template structure for a feature. I worked on an Events plugin, and we were revamping RSVP. There was no diagrams and things were like "everything is going to work fine"
 
@Crell true story. When I started at the particular company I was thinking of, one of the first things I did was to diagram the DB, so we could see what info was even in there. I showed that to a programmer who had been working there for years, and he said "No one had ever shown him that diagram, where did I find it?"
 
Diagrams are not the only form of planning and documentation.
I've never seen diagrams for Symfony.
At least not ones written long after the fact to explain it. Some of which I made. :-)
I suppose I have done high level diagrams on whiteboards once or twice when consulting. But not often.
 
@LucasBustamante I don't have time to explain it in great depth, but I strongly prefer generating documents from code for things like events, so that the diagrams are kept up-to-date, rather than instantly wrong.
 
I've worked with Wordpress for enterprise clients such as Microsoft (their blog), Steelcase (multi-billion dollar company), Harvard Law, Stanford, and many other enterprise clients. I personally find it very difficult to organize a very complex feature in my head only. Writing high-level architecture diagrams was vital to paint a big picture before writing code. I find that doing so often lead in better design.
Writing complex stuff without a design or architecture, often might be messy
But I agree that detailed class-level UMLs might often get outdated quickly
 
At the risk of giving away a billion dollar idea. I would love to have an editor where you could 'switch views' and view code in different formats. e.g. have a 'routes view' that shows all of the api/controller endpoints in the code, and be able to click through to the code that is at the end of that endpoint. Or switch to a dataflow view, and see what code is communicating with the DB/redis instances.
 
10:25 PM
@Danack I did a very rudimentary version of that last week, it was basically a RecursiveDirectoryIterator that you point to a folder and it parses it with Regex and writes to a PlantUML Sequence Diagram plantuml.com/sequence-diagram This could probably be better suited to a Class DIagram plantuml.com/class-diagram
Whoa, that's nice (probably): github.com/carlosas/phpat
 
@Danack one of the projects I worked on in my last job, no one knew what programming language it was written in...
(it was PL/SQL)
the project was worked on by one programmer who no longer worked there, then "maintained" by another who didn't know anything about the language, what the language was, or anything... then it was assigned to me, I figured out the language, maintained the project, and occasionally added features since it was a proprietary product
 
10:49 PM
@Crell ^^ Tiffany is quite smart. Do you know any companies in the US that could hire her? Or ones elsewhere that know about US healthcare benefits.
 
:S
 
11:29 PM
If you're interested in secops, we're hiring for the security team right now. We've been in a hiring freeze since coronavirus hit, though, so I don't know what else we may have open.
Our only major PHP code is a Drupal 7 ecommerce site. Most of the core system is Python with a bit of Go.
If any of that sounds interesting to you, let me know. :-)
 
11:46 PM
@Crell yes
 
platform.sh/company/careers - This is us. I have no idea if the position list is accurate at the moment, but if you're interested I'd recommend ignoring it and applying anyway. :-)
Feel free to DM me on Twitter (@Crell) if you want to talk more details. No sense filling up the room here with it.
 
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