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12:02 AM
In practice modeling many things is impossible.
 
12:16 AM
@JerryCoffin Many ppl respected in the intelligentsia are actually pretty stupid (or at least they play one on the media) and also hugely ignorant. I can cite many examples of abject ignorance even if the exact plausible area of expertise of the guy (even though these ppl rarely list specific expertise topics). So an idiot IA that's actually savant would still be a "win".
At least IA cannot have special cases specifically built in. Nobody can write down ad hoc rules to protect their friends, and if the data used for machine learning can be made neutral, the human biases will be exposed. (And training another IA w/ diff data would show the problem with biases made up training data.)
I think IA is terrifying for the frauds that had a monopoly on treating data and explaining "reality" in their fields, and who inserted their biases for decades now. They established a commonly agreed "consensus" and now you need "extraordinary evidence" to just to challenge the commonly held position, just because it's popular.
That anti scientific approach is compromised if data analysis is done by a computer. The great priests of science would have very little power to spin the results.
@JerryCoffin Also in medicine: biology very often fails at predicting the effect of a drug. "Experts" did fail to predict many SE of contraceptive pills. They completely missed heart issues, probably the most common life threatening SE - even though some say in retrospect some ppl say it was logically predictable.
@JerryCoffin AFAIK the laws used to model the mouvement of charged particules in TOKAMAK fusion reactors (such as the "ITER" experimental reactor being built) are empirical "engineers' laws" and not derived from "first principles".
Why isn't political commentary being discussed as a possible case of IA taking the jobs of humans?
 
12:35 AM
@curiousguy From what I've heard, there's quite a bit of both involved. And I used to user quite a bit. I used to work on the General Atomics campus that houses the D-IIID reactor and many lunch-time conversations revolved around it.
 
That would explain the glow
 
Pierre-Gilles de Gennes (Nobel prize of physics) was strongly against building ITER w/o knowing enough on plasmas.
 
@Mikhail Nah--when you met me I glowed because I was pregnant.
 
"That anti scientific approach is compromised if data analysis is done by a computer. The great priests of science would have very little power to spin the results."
What are you trying to say with this sentence? I've tried 0xdeadbeef times and I still get a parsing error.
 
Pierre-Gilles de Gennes' words here
So was Georges Charpak: stop the ITER project
 
12:41 AM
So if you're a man considering taking birth control pills, stop. Look at the reasons for your curiosity and what you hope to achieve. Next, find someone — a doctor or therapist — who can help you figure out the best way to reach your goals.
 
(Charpak was promoting advanced fission reactors, as a lot of the French physics community, with many Nobel prize recipients.)
 
@curiousguy Certainly much more practical in the short term anyway. Fusion is much more of a gamble--but like many gambles, the payoff if it works out could be tremendous.
 
Well if ppl are worried about a little BPA contamination in (adult) food (let's says for babies the issue is diff), and its potential hormonal effect, you certainly should think hard before dosing you with chemical hormone treatments.
 
What is BPA brings about world peace by reducing global testosterone levels?
 
@JerryCoffin In the short term, the French gov just stopped the fast neutron fission project Astrid (that many ppl thought wasn't going anywhere anyway).
 
12:46 AM
@curiousguy Why are you comparing gravel at a bridge with the scent of a moose?
 
@curiousguy Yeah, fission (in nearly all forms) has been under attack for years, and it's just getting worse. It's (by far) the cleanest practical energy source available today, but also the most hated by the people who claim to care about clean energy.
2
 
BTW, I will be visiting the Université de Saint-Etienne in April. Anybody know of anything to do there?
 
@Mikhail Neat. April is the month of early veggies.
 
Travels across the globe to see veggies
 
@Mikhail Works for me =)
 
12:51 AM
Also NTNU around February 1st :-(
1 8:54 am ↑ (129°) 4:10 pm ↑ (231°) < - Sunrise/Sunset times
 
Swedish Democrats party === Quite undemocratic goals. Horrible in their understanding what a democracy actually is.
Environmental party === The worst possible option for our environment.
4
 
+1 because we need nuclear power, don't know anything about the Swedish Democrats
Also maybe a day in Copenhagen, youtube.com/watch?v=ykj3Kpm3O0g
 
Many "environmentalists" have been screaming for decades about the need to completely change our energy system, yet they (and the journalists who echo them with obvious agreement) still get the unit for energy wrong half of the time! Again MW isn't the unit of energy and plants don't sell energy at "40 € per MW". That they can't even seem to care to learn the basic stuff tells a lot about how seriously they consider physical issues.
(For a written interview I would give the benefit of the doubt to the person being interviewed, but we have these ppl on TV, we have tweets, we have everything where error isn't attributable to another person.)
 
I found a language funnier than C++
 
1:07 AM
@curiousguy I've become half convinced that the problem is that fission plants are huge, but profitable, so they're almost always built, owned, and operated by huge corporations--and most of the people who claim to care about clean energy, really care more about being opposed companies being large and successful.
 
@JerryCoffin There aren't OK with a public utility owning the plants either.
 
1:32 AM
@curiousguy Yeah--they want something new and progressive, not just lame, old investing lots of time and effort in ways that make people's lives better. Quite a few also theorize (almost certainly correctly) that a lot of opposition to nuclear weapons "leaks" over and comes out as opposition to nuclear energy as well.
 
2:13 AM
@CaptainGiraffe lol
 
@CaptainGiraffe Many so called scientists practice selective dismissal of data whenever it suits them. They praise a database of medical issues than throw it in the bin when it shows a pressing issue with a drug. There are many other examples in the news. We are overwhelmed by obviously selective use of data. That will be impossible with AI.
 
 
5 hours later…
6:55 AM
@curiousguy I like some of what you wrote, hope to see you here more often.
 
 
1 hour later…
7:56 AM
@Mgetz Decided to return those 32GB DIMMs for refund. As I've probably mentioned, 2 of them errored on both machines I tested. And at least 3 fail on the B350. Also, a newer model of it with lower CLs came out.
So I'll wait until November when I get the 3950X to buy again - either the newer model or whatever else is better by then.
 
 
2 hours later…
9:45 AM
Back from farmlet. Visiting own farmlet has been fun so far, always some 'new features' to be discovered.
So last night I heard that I thought was feral boar on the land. It was some round creature in the dark.
Turned out, it was a wombat.
When I saw its burrow, I was like: who needs an A.I.enabled mini-excavator if you can train a wombat - those big, round deep holes. Although in reality, there is neither A.I. enabled mini-excavator nor trained wombat.
Of course not all local residents are round, here is a picture of slimmer creatures to balance things out:
 
10:06 AM
The 3950x costs money
 
 
1 hour later…
11:28 AM
@Mysticial fair, probably newer dies then too
 
11:49 AM
Just realized something. High coupling and low cohesion aren't two different things. They're basically synonyms. For example if your code is tightly coupled to a certain database driver, then the code also has low cohesion because it can't function on its own.
And high cohesion implies low coupling.
 
@StackedCrooked eh... no low cohesion means they really don't go together
 
Maybe. But "don't belong together" also describes high coupling.
I mean. Typically.
 
there are some nuances in the difference but they are not orthogonal
 
I, for one, totally support this pronoun thing, I will start by addressing my enemies as 'it'!
 
12:54 PM
One of my apps is crashing randomly again.
Is there anything I can do to capture all crashes?
 
depends on the platform and whether you mean "all the crashes on my machine" or "all crashes anywhere"
 
pokėballs
 
@PeterT Anywhere. I tend to use my app at random places (including aboard), partially because I wanted to test it.
 
1:57 PM
TIL, that 1.1.1.1 is now used for a DNS service.
It's an address often used for testing and experimentation. They should be getting a lot of garbage traffic.
 
@StackedCrooked They do, and it was deliberately chosen so it wouldn't get randomly assigned
also people shouldn't use public IPs for experimentation
 
 
1 hour later…
3:13 PM
I need to convince Jenkins to not get triggered all the time.
 
@Mgetz They might be different dies. Same speed, significantly lower timings.
The ones I had were Micron. Maybe the new ones are Samsung.
 
@Mysticial F-die? or are they making dies big enough not to chain?
 
@Mgetz No idea. And I won't know until I buy them in November (assuming I do) or if someone posts a Thaiphoon screenie of them.
 
@Mysticial looks like samsung does make dies for that category but only A die, allegedly it looks like they are starting on B-die in 10nm now
 
In other news, when I put my 4 x 16GB Hynix sticks back in my Ryzen, it refused to post with XMP and only half of it would show up in Windows and memtest. Initially thought the new BIOS didn't like it so I did a ton of flashing to new avail. Turns out that I put them back in a different order. One of the sticks really doesn't like being in the primary slot and would take out the entire channel.
FFS
I also never tested these Hynix sticks in another machine to see if it's the ram or just the mobo that's finicky.
 
3:22 PM
@JerryCoffin Fission would be a great transition option, because we can quickly replace all the coal with it and then slowly but surely move to other methods over the next few decades.
That being said, solar is increasingly becoming cheap and efficient.
 
@Mysticial going to guess the mobo has a subtimings cache and it saw the same ram but didn't redo the subtiming training
 
@Mgetz That would've been wiped out through the numerous BIOS reflashes.
 
@Mysticial unlikely, but possible
some bios' just suck that way
 
3:45 PM
if that subtimings cache is separate from the bios program flash then it would be preserved
 
@Mgetz I remember that I did try running those 4 x 16GB Hynix's in my X99. One of the channels didn't show up. But that was the case even after I switched the sticks around. The same channel didn't show up.
I didn't try again afterwards.
 
@Mysticial weird
 
And I never tried them in either of my X299s.
Sometimes I just hate ram.
I'm more hesitant to mess with my X299s since it took me a long time to get them stable. But so far copying down all the BIOS settings and always putting the sticks back in exactly the same order hasn't failed yet.
 
4:02 PM
I can't tell if this is serious or just trolling at this point:
-1
Q: Require pronouns next to user names

Adam DavisIt appears the latest Code of Conduct changes under discussion may result in punishment where users do not accurately use preferred pronouns. Since there is currently no way to know this without visiting a user's page, and then only if they volunteer that information, it is necessary for Stack E...

 
4:33 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Yeah, I think even its advocates would be happy with replacing fission with other possibilities when they're actually competitive--but right now, most of them really aren't. Even solar isn't (yet) really practical without subsidies.
This question seems like a parody but at the same time, it's a question that should be asked. We don't know the new CoC but we have a good idea of what the footnotes are, and it's probably not a great idea to read intent into something you're reading off the internet. — StephanS 3 mins ago
@Mysticial I maintain that we should just drop this experiment with DRAM and go back to nice, reliable SRAM for main memory. In other news, I've moved all my 401k money into a fund that invests in electric utilities... :-)
 
4:58 PM
 
5:18 PM
@JerryCoffin I mean, the goal is to hold on until we can get fusion power, right?
 
Which is still in development after like 70 years?
Obviously the deadline is 2050 because that's the date Sim City has for Fusion plants.
 
@JerryCoffin apparently that's no longer true, it's reached critical mass. Especially wind in particular
 
Though I don't see Satellite Microwave plants coming next year. :(
 
@Mysticial I suspect we'll end up with a 'renewables are good enough' situation
 
@EtiennedeMartel I think fusion is still kind of a gamble--I'm not entirely convinced it'll ever become really practical. Solar, on the other hand, is really close to being competitive, and prices continue to drop fairly dependably, so it really is likely to be cheaper than coal within a couple decades or so (at most).
 
5:22 PM
@JerryCoffin No it is competitive, in fact in many cases for new build it's cheaper
Coal is and always has been expensive
and has been propped up by subsidies for years
 
@JerryCoffin From what I understand (and I'm OOTL), they aren't able to predict the behavior of plasma either well enough or quickly enough to keep it levitated in an EM field.
 
@Mgetz For the moment, I'm not talking so much about total cost, as apparent cost to the consumer over the near term when they (for example) build a house.
 
@JerryCoffin I'm looking at it from a grid perspective, and from a grid perspective the costs are flipping. LNG is still cheapest but solar and wind follow immediately afterwards. Coal and Nuclear are very distant and last
Part of this has to do ironically with the non-intuitive economics of farming
 
5:39 PM
It's easy to think coal is cheap when you don't count the cost of building and maintaining the actual plants.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Fueling them as well--both mining and transportation of coal are non-trivial.
 
But yeah, my money's on solar for the future.
 
For the consumer, it mostly comes down to a single choice: do I put solar panels on my roof, or depend solely on the grid?
 
Also, let's not forget about hydroelectricity: a water reservoir is a hell of a good battery.
 
@EtiennedeMartel It certainly can be--but they cause quite a bit of ecological harm.
 
5:47 PM
At least the harm is mostly localized
 
@Mysticial Yeah, at GA, their current strategy is to detect when the plasma is just starting to break out of containment, and when they detect it, zap it with a laser (and I'd guess ITER will mostly start from where GA is when it gets to the point of actually generating plasma).
@EtiennedeMartel True (for sufficiently loose definitions of "local", given that reservoirs are often tens and occasionally hundreds of kilometers long).
@EtiennedeMartel On the other hand, when you're using it in conjunction with solar, you can often use relatively small reservoirs, since you're typically only trying to store enough energy for a few days or so, where many current reservoirs are sized based on assumption of providing power for months at a time.
 
@JerryCoffin Yeah, you don't need to flood entire valleys.
 
@EtiennedeMartel The other side of it is that you normally use two separate reservoirs, and you need some mountains (or at least hills). Just about need other forms of storage for flatter areas.
Oh my. Vlad is back. And it looks like he's still intent on making the world a worse place...
3
A: Acessing Values only at certain indexes using iterators

Vlad from MoscowHere you are int rob( const vector<int>& nums) { int i = 0; int a = std::accumulate(nums.begin(), nums.end(), 0, [&i]( const auto &acc, const auto &value ) { return ( i ^= 1 ) ? acc + value : acc; ...

 
What the fuck
 
6:04 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Well, you start with the notion that return ( odds = !odds ) ? acc + value : acc; is clear, readable code, and go from there...
 
He's basically saying "here's magic, give me my rep"
 
@EtiennedeMartel Pretty much what he's always done. At least nowadays, he seem to try to make sure his "magic" code has defined behavior.
 
<troll>IOW, it's a lose-lose situation. It's against the CoC to not call someone by their preferred pronoun - including avoiding the use of pronouns altogether. But at the same time there's no way to determine what a person's preferred pronoun is if the person chooses not to disclose. So if you want to get someone punished, don't disclose your preferred pronoun and interact with the person. If the person doesn't use pronouns or uses the wrong one, you flag for moderator attention and the moderator will be required to enforce it otherwise the mod gets punished.</troll> — Mysticial 1 min ago
 
@Mysticial Keep pushing! Life will definitely be better when everybody has to refer to me as "infallible genius". :-)
Of course, given that I can abuse the system mildly, it's inevitable that others will invent much worse abuses...
 
6:50 PM
> Misgendering a person is transphobic, and may be an act of violence.
jesus
Oh. He might have been trolling.
 
7:06 PM
@StackedCrooked I would guess--but I'm guessing at least a few people would say the same, and really mean it. Now don't get me started on my SIL, who refers to both me and her husband as "she" more often than not (but English is definitely a second language for her).
 
Had to Google SIL and got this: "Sister-In-Law Wifes sister, brothers sister. also see SILF - Sister In Law I'd Fuck."
@JerryCoffin Yeah, that's why I first thought it was serious first.
It's even in cppcon. Sean used the word "guy" to refer to something in the code, and immediately followed it up with a clarification about inclusivity.
That's just crazy.
 
7:30 PM
In boost::asio you can choose between dispatch and post.
 
user8104581
I'd like data on how many people actually feel attacked/abused/discriminated by being referred by something that is/isn't their biological sex or how they personally identify, to the point of needing to force a change on the way languages have worked for millenniums and cause such chaos and fuss. Because what I'm seeing is a ton of people having to worry about everything they say as to not ending up being taken as an obstacle to the movement (which, as we've seen, can end in losing your job).
 
@StackedCrooked Misgendering code is (probably?) violence too!
 
user8104581
In any case, I wouldn't mind being referred as Infallible Genius as well @JerryCoffin
 
@andreyrk I think each person needs to invent his/her/zer/blur/hurr/durr own pronoun--no copying allowed.
 
user8104581
7:48 PM
@JerryCoffin I don't think humanity's grey matter distributed servers have enough storage capacity for all the possibilities
 
@andreyrk We cannot let human limitations get in the way of justice!
 
@JerryCoffin 🦄💩
 
@JerryCoffin Pronoun-gate is turning into the gift that keeps giving in terms of comedic drama.
@Mgetz Can't watch at work. Any key takeaways?
 
8:13 PM
@Mysticial if you want to overclock zen... just buy a better cooler because it's a waste of time to try pushing it past boost clocks. There is some play in memory.
The cooler is basically the biggest determining point
 
@Mgetz ah
Yeah, I have no expectation of being able to OC the CPU. But I did get a nice cooler.
 
@Mysticial screenshot please
 
@Mikhail Remind me in 7 hours.
 
I installed an nvlink bridge. The cheapest one cost $100 but has RGB. This offends my server oriented sensibilities.
 
@Mysticial Yeah--I think it probably helps that here in the lounge we have a fair number of people who are just a bit left of center, so we're sympathetic to the basic ideas involved, but not so far left that we're willing to blind ourselves to the implications, and where this leads. Too far right, and you just dismiss it all as a bunch of BS. Too far left, and you're willing to ignore what's impossible. For us sort of toward the middle...comedy gold!
 
8:16 PM
I'm a communist (kinda), and have donated some money to Andrew Yang
 
@Mgetz Didn't mention it last night. The 32GB DIMMs (XMP 3000) worked at 3200 and even with 3400 with relaxed timings. The 16GB Hynix's that I had wouldn't even post at 3200 - even though they're rated for XMP 3200.
Memory is sooo weird.
 
@Mikhail A true communist would never demean himself by possessing things.
 
@Mysticial yeah I've found it depends on the Physical layout on the DIMMs too
 
@JerryCoffin And because we're center-left. We are automatically enemies of both extremes. I consider myself maybe a bit more left than center-left, but I'm half expecting someone to call be a bigot at any moment.
 
8:26 PM
Another reading is that this chat room isn't too keen on identity politics. Independent on how much we lean left or right in economic terms.
 
@Mikhail Which is why we really need the 3rd parties to be a thing again.
 
So, you can have political parties that are only about identity issues :-)
 
@Mikhail haha
 
@Mysticial Yeah--of course, exactly where you're seen as being depends on the viewpoint of who's looking. When I was growing up in South Dakota, I was clearly seen as lunatic fringe left. Here in California I'm probably seen as pretty far right...
 
@JerryCoffin I used to consider myself far-left on social issues. Then I discovered that the scale goes far beyond what I thought it did.
 
8:31 PM
I do believe we could fix many identify problems if we forced people to intermingle. But also if we removed many policies that do a lot of damage, like most affirmative action related ones. Unfortunately, the only thing preventing me from becoming president is my status as a naturalized rather than native citizen. And the post in my country of origin is already taken.
 
@Mysticial My tendency on most social issues is that I just don't care about things unless they (fairly) directly affect me. So for example, I simply don't care who sleeps with whom (as long as everybody involved gives real, informed consent and such, of course).
 
"Its not gay if you're on top" ~ Jerry
 
Social issues means people sleeping with each other?
:)
 
^ no, the US has a racial angle that is somewhat unique. Although comparable, perhaps in damage, to France.
 
@StackedCrooked "for example".
 
8:39 PM
I also don't care. For example, retirement age was recently raised from 65 to 67. I'm like, fine, so I won't be bored at home.
By then the retirement age will probably be 70 or more.
 
@JerryCoffin Same. One of the first "left" ideas that has no effect me, but had me thinking as opposed to blindly accepting is the bathroom issue. (letting people choose whichever bathroom they want) Mainly because as it was worded when I heard about it, was so vulnerable to abuse by pedophiles.
 
@StackedCrooked Here, retirement age depends mostly on when you can afford to retire. Given my wife's spending habits, I'll die first.
 
Also this room appears to be anti SD (Sverigedemokraterna), which is interesting because most people aren't Swedes :-)
 
@Mysticial Oh, you are a bigot! :-)
 
@JerryCoffin :)
 
8:43 PM
@Mikhail I'm pro-SD. Grew up in South Dakota, now live in San Diego, and like both quite well.
 
Not to mention, they probably don't give no fucks about the laws.
 
@StackedCrooked Correct. And they can go in there anyway right now. Or rather, the situation isn't different with or without that policy. If someone want to charge in there and attack someone, they can already do that.
 
is this float* max= (float*)malloc(sizeof(float)) equal to this float* max = new float[float];
 
Dammit I didn't want to delete that.
 
haha
 
8:45 PM
Now it's back :)
 
The bathroom laws are an example of the stupidity of American politics. At face value it was a mean shibboleth. Trans people have been using bathrooms for a while. Pedophiles don't care about the laws, they are already breaking a few. This debate was headline news while that state was being robbed.
 
Oh, no. Now it looks so weird with the text.
 
@Mikhail Oh, but I think many do. They may not follow the law, but they don't want to be caught breaking it either. From what I've heard, pedophiles in prison are the lowest of the low--may easily have to spend nearly their entire time in solitary confinement to keep them alive at all.
 
@Mikhail Yeah it's stupid. We grow up using "unisex" bathrooms. We're perfectly used to it.
@JerryCoffin I wonder what crimes are highly regarded in prison. Tax evasion?
 
IT related makes you popular in prison, also law.
 
8:49 PM
@Mikhail why?
 
You can help other inmates with stuff.
 
@Mikhail Shawshank Redemption :)
 
@StackedCrooked I'm not sure if it qualifies as highly regarded, exactly, but violence tends to get people treated with a degree of respect.
 
I mean nobody likes taxes. I can't imagine them being offended by someone cheating the government.
 
^ true
 
8:55 PM
@StackedCrooked I doubt anybody has a problem with trying to cheat on taxes. But I'd tend to think getting caught would diminish the respect. Successful tax cheats get elected instead.
 
Maybe he's honestly worried about it. Just seems overkill.
 
user8104581
@JerryCoffin It is a crime that doesn't have very visible consequences if it goes unnoticed, so I can imagine many people being more prone to doing it if they believe they are not going to get caught
 
user8104581
I guess just the fact that someone did something ethically or morally wrong makes them less respectable even to the most messed up of all
 
user8104581
I guess it goes like this: everybody else must follow the rules, but I'm allowed to bypass them
 
9:25 PM
@Mikhail you should adopt a unisex mentality toward life.
 
Like, only focus on sex?
 
@Mikhail Oh I'm just amused by the fact it came from the 'freedom' party
the one that hates laws... allegedly
 
Or that the Democrats promote a kind of globalization which harms their most vulnerable constituents. But that's a subject I can talk a lot about :-)
 
@Mikhail and this is why we need preference voting, so they can separate out in the parties they should be
 
Is that some kind of scheme where you vote on issues and then you find out which candidate stands on those issues?
Although the issue of globalization is mostly that the elites have co-opted a movement based on care-ing for your fellow man. So, Democrats think they are bring humanity together when they are instead inviting foreign tyranny (also propagating domestic tyranny).
Too bad we can't actually vote Republican :-(
 
9:35 PM
@Mikhail I thought taking a shit was like a universal thing.
 
Holy shit:
If you are looking for out of SO stalkers ... here's a shot of my inbox i.stack.imgur.com/D95Dj.png ;p — Bhargav Rao ♦ Sep 7 at 18:13
^^ /cc @Borgleader
 
@Mikhail you vote for candidates in order of preference. Basically if you can't have your first choice who's your second, so if your first choice doesn't have enough votes to win then the candidate with the lowest number of votes gets cut out and the votes redistributed until any given candidate has a majority based on preferences.
 
@curiousguy No. No, and no. End of communication. You are a self confessed idiot.
 
@CaptainGiraffe I thought it was hilarious that jerry could make sense of what he said.
 
9:52 PM
@Rick JC is what we aspire to be.
 
true
 
10:25 PM
@CaptainGiraffe You should have higher aspirations. Legal pot leads to extremely high aspirations, I've heard.
 
10:39 PM
@andreyrk Most laws a pretty clear-cut. If I kill somebody, I know it's a crime. And it's normally pretty easy for most of us to be sure we haven't killed anybody. Tax code is so complex, nobody's really sure what they can or can't do, and nobody knows whether they're breaking the law or not (and if their finances are at all complex, they probably know there's a good chance they've messed up somewhere along the line).
 
@JerryCoffin what amazes me is that we still allow it to be so inane for the purpose of keeping tax prep accountants in business and hiding money
 
We also mostly think of criminals as "bad" people, but (again) when a law is so complex that perfectly decent people break it by accident, it's impossible to attach any moral value to following or breaking it.
2
 
@JerryCoffin The old "Three felonies a day"
 
@Mgetz Oh, I think most of it is intended to have other effects--but we all know that quite a few of them aren't particularly ethical either. Lots of tax breaks (and such) are given to particular companies or industries not because they deserve it, but because they can afford lots of bribes lobbying.
 
@JerryCoffin pretty much, I'm in the group that says that preferential tax treatment should be outlawed constitutionally. Return only filing should be a thing, and a simple progressive tax system should be good enough
capped at 50% except in case of war
but eh
nobody is going to listen to me anyway
 
10:53 PM
@Mgetz We are of two minds about this. There are times I'm tempted to say we should repeal the sixteenth amendment entirely.
 
@JerryCoffin eh... getting rid of income taxes just means we'd need to replace it with VAT which is more regressive
 
At the same time, there are definitely tax breaks that are undoubtedly intended to do some real good, and probably succeed at least part of the time (e.g., tax breaks for startups).
 
whereas I think that should be part of the progressive tax system
instead of having breaks just do progressive for corporate too
 
@Mgetz I was thinking more in terms of federal government demanding X amount from each state, and the people in the state decide how to collect the amount.
 
@JerryCoffin in practice that's never actually been passed IIRC except briefly after the civil war and it was wildly unpopular
head taxes generally are passed on directly
as such the government usually used excise taxes
remember the whole point of the 16th amendment was to get the 18th passed by removing the need for taxes on alcohol
 
10:58 PM
@JerryCoffin Now add FEC chairwoman saying that information is a thing of value; then the whole world is crazy. You may not read foreign news anymore.
 
@curiousguy no, that's a wildly incorrect interpretation
in fact the recent ECJ ruling is problematic in the US due to the first amendment
 
So info is a thing of value means you can give or receive info under which circumstances?
 
> We are overwhelmed by obviously selective use of data. That will be impossible with AI.
 
Are Russians supposed to follow US's election laws?
 
oh_wait_you're_serious.mp4
 
11:00 PM
@curiousguy lol no, they are going to try to influence it as much as possible
 
Is it possible to communicate with an American w/o checking 1st whether he is part of an official election campaign?
Is anyone telling me that these new interpretation of election laws are no cuckoo land?
 
not the external person's problem, it's the US citizen's problem
 
Also do Russians have 1A rights WRT US election law in Russia on Russian sites when posting in Russian?
 
@curiousguy complicated, and dependent on US ties and a lot of other factors. For example a russian with family in the US does, but a russian with a random opinion does not
 
@curiousguy Legally, yes and especially when inside the US.
 
11:05 PM
Law stackexchange probably has a good explaination
 
The Foreign Agents Registration Act (FARA) is a United States law passed in 1938 requiring that agents representing the interests of foreign powers in a "political or quasi-political capacity" disclose their relationship with the foreign government and information about related activities and finances.
 
@Mgetz I'm French. If I DM a US person (that happens to work on an election, which I could suspect but I wasn't sure he was), am I subject to the FEC current interpretation of the concept of "thing of value"?
 
@curiousguy if (a) the US person is involved in a campaign of some sort (b) the information is of political value to the race giving the person or their campaign an advantage in any way
then yes
if the US person sits on their hands and does nothing with it, you're safe
if they use it in any way you're in trouble
That said... the chances of the FEC actually doing anything right now are not virtually zero... they are zero
because certain members of the FEC refuse to take any action at all
 
@JerryCoffin You know exactly what I mean =)
 
@Mikhail That's when you promote the interest and goals of another gov and take instructions from that gov. (f.ex. Butina w/ Russia, Flynn w/Turkey). But Russians were prosecuted (AFAIK) by Mueller only for posting election related stuff online, w/o being connected w/ Russian Federation. That's the election law part of the saga which seems to be applicable to any non US citizen posting anything of political nature anywhere in any language.
 
11:18 PM
@curiousguy actually no they weren't, they were prosecuted for violating the CFAA
which means they were acting in a deceptive manner, also wire fraud
 
(I understand there is also an identity stealing of US citizens in the form of postings on social media angle here, which is obv. actionable and diff. from the election law claim.)
 
@curiousguy they weren't prosecuted under the election law
they were prosecuted for computer crimes
 
@CaptainGiraffe Has that ever slowed me down from misinterpreting something if i thought it might be funny?
 
@Mgetz "They"=? "computer crimes" = DNC hacking?
 
@curiousguy part of it, also the stuff related to identity crimes and wire fraud
 
11:25 PM
@Mgetz Usurping the ID of an existing American citizen is clearly bad; I don't understand the "wire fraud". And "conspiracy against the US" seems to be the very definition of the unspecified crime.
 
Conspiracy against the United States, or conspiracy to defraud the United States, is a federal offense in the United States of America under 18 U.S.C. § 371. The crime is that of two or more persons who conspire to commit an offense against the United States, or to defraud the United States. == Statute == 18 U.S.C. § 371 provides that: If two or more persons conspire either to commit any offense against the United States, or to defraud the United States, or any agency thereof in any manner or for any purpose, and one or more of such persons do any act to effect the object of the conspiracy, each...
it's a tack on charge
for when more than one person is involved
 
That would seem to cover anything bad you don't do alone...
 
correct
it's intended to punish criminal groups
you can't get charged for that without another charge with it
 
@curiousguy are you involved in a criminal conspiracy?
 
@Rick How much of the thousands of pages of US law is intended to apply to me?
 
11:31 PM
A ton, especially when you're in the US
 
Does the FEC's "thing of value" applies to already public info being repeated?
 
I don't understand your concern, if you go to a country and commit crimes, you're punished for it.
 
@Mgetz Actually, there are pretty solid claims that you can. This is one of the things Manafort plead to, there were some pretty solid claims that the thing they conspired to do didn't actually have to be a crime, as long as it impaired lawful actions of the government. Let me see if I can dig up a quote...
 
@Mikhail How could the thousands of technical legal gibberish (that lawyers don't all understand the same way and debate for hours about) apply to foreigners being legally in the US, but not the full 1A protections for political speech and ideas and facts that might be of relevance for an upcoming election?
Also what is the time window of the application of election law before an election? One year? Several years? Whenever a PAC is registered?
 
@curiousguy FYI, the "thousands of technical legal gibberish" applies to non-foreigners.
 
Anyways, your arguments are rather boring. If you commit a crime, especially inside the country, you are liable for it.
 
@curiousguy This is such a specific concern, albeit stated in a rather confusing way.
 
@Mikhail But US ppl seems to get, for now, 1A protection for political speech during an election season, although the application of that principle by SCOTUS seems to be the most controversial decision ever!
@Mikhail Is breaking US election laws a "crime"?
Is paying Stormy Daniels a crime? When it is a crime? (what time window before an election)
@JerryCoffin What the heck is "lawful function"? Seems to be yet another made up concept designed to be applied in the most capricious and arbitrary way
 
@curiousguy are you paying Stormy Daniels (aka horse face) ?
 
@curiousguy I'm not a law professor, but my guess is that it basically means "carrying out a function mandated by law"
So for example, there was a law that created..umm...the EPA. If two or more people conspire to make it harder for the EPA to do their job, it could constitute conspiracy against the US, even if the thing they did wasn't actually a crime in itself.
 
11:46 PM
@Rick The money is irrelevant. Anything that might have an influence on the public image of anyone running for election (or maybe anyone close to someone running) seems to be protected under the Trump broke election law by agreeing to pay up w/o reporting that as election spending. I'm pretty sure those pushing that theory would be even more enraged if Trump did use election funds to pay, even if sourced from his own bank account!
The absurd expansion of election spending rules, and election law interpretation in general is a clear threat to public liberties!
@JerryCoffin But what is EPA's job? To lower "pollutants" (whatever that is)? Then anyone create a factory that does or does not emit pollutants might make it harder for EPA inspectors to control pollutants, as they will spend time on that factory. Again current expending interpretation of US law is crazy and a threat to freedom.
 
@curiousguy you as a foreigner are worried about my liberty as an American?
 
It isn't possible to be a lawyer in the US under that interpretation. A lawyer will make the job of the prosecutor or an agency.
@Rick Who wouldn't be worried about it?
@JerryCoffin BTW is any part of the Constitution justifying the existence of the EPA?
 
@curiousguy not me.
 
@curiousguy Its job is established in the NEPA.
 
@Rick What if on a public forum or via private chat I convince the next Harsh Weather actress to not go public? Would that be interference in an election?
 
11:55 PM
@curiousguy Sure. Like much of the federal government, the justification is about half a sentence--something to the effect of "...or for the general good." (I'd have to look it up to get the wording exactly right, but you get the general idea). If you say that's been stretched a lot...well, you're certainly not alone.
 
@curiousguy I don't care what the hell you do, I'm sure the Deep State has guys working day and night to protect me from guys like you.
 
@Rick The US is the absolute reference of extreme liberalism (interpreted as near libertarian-ism) by many politicians and "intellectuals" in Europe and I suspect elsewhere. Whenever any US state forbids something, it's cited as an example of what "even the most laissez faire country in the world" decided to restrict, and ppl opposing that restriction as obvious overreach are subject to public ridicule, because of the US does it, it can't be unreasonably restrictive. So yes I care!
 

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