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12:19 AM
@cmb The PRs for GD should be working their way through CI now with the helper moved to func.inc
 
 
1 hour later…
1:45 AM
"php -a" will terminate immediately for any thrown CompileError – #78489
 
 
1 hour later…
2:55 AM
Cannot Maintain Transparency Preservation in PNG Images – #78490
 
3:42 AM
morning
My @php.net email alias doesn't work, who should I ask about this?
 
 
2 hours later…
5:54 AM
Good morning
 
6:45 AM
Could someone please read my RFC cause I'd like to know if it is in understandable English? wiki.php.net/rfc/object-initializer
Added some sections regarding to what I've sent yesterday
 
7:01 AM
Would it be good or really bad idea to propose initializer on clone creation? I believe that would simplify a lot creating an object clone just to replace one property in most with* methods?
In a future context
Oh I realized that I didn't wrote anything about scopes. Cause if used in same class scope I believe it should be possible to assign private properties or protected from parent one.
 
7:38 AM
@LeviMorrison you really don't want to use those, they will utterly destroy performance ...
you'll need to maintain your own state, there's no space in the frame you can use ...
it seems like it's worth repeating, don't use those extension handlers for anything less than a fully blown debugger because they incur overhead like that of a debugger even if your handlers are null ...
 
@JoeWatkins what do you think about splat operator in object initializer? Given this Uri lib from ThePHPLeague github.com/thephpleague/uri/blob/master/src/Uri.php#L577-L621 it would simplify a lot, right?
public static function createFromString($uri = ''): self
{
    return new self { ...UriString::parse($uri) };
}
 
you'd be inventing a new meaning for the splat operator, you're using it to mean "expand this array as arguments with the keys as parameter names"
I don't like it ...
 
yes, but we already have two meanings for splat which is splat array at fcall and repack them into array
 
@brzuchal It's worth mentioning as future scope
 
@JoeWatkins Ok, and how about clone ? using initializer in clone statement to reinitialize properties?
@NikiC Aweesone, thanks
 
7:47 AM
{
    param: ... call(),
    ... call()
}
that's really strange, and you're heading there ...
 
@JoeWatkins It's really the same as ... in [] syntax
Just that is unpacks into an object instead of an array
Well, I guess it's kinda not the same in that ... in arrays is numeric only, while this would be string only...
 
Ok, I'll leave it for now but mention in future scope
 
future scope sounds right to me, and for the clone thing ... don't bundle a bunch of questionable stuff with it, and it is questionable ...
 
@JoeWatkins clone in future scope is ok, or better not to even mention of that?
 
I wouldn't even mention it tbh
 
7:51 AM
Understood
 
hello
 
\o
 
future scope can just be turned into topics to be discussed in the bike shed, and there's no way to tell what will turn into bike shedding ...
o/
I think if you well define how splat operator works you can implement it nicely, it's probably a reasonable future scope topic ... I see splat/pack as two sides of the same thing, I don't know what the other side of the thing you are suggesting is, or if it needs complimentary side even ... so my gut reaction is I don't like it ...
having the operator behave completely differently when used in object initializer context is also strange, especially if you support the example I gave above, where two identical calls could have different meanings, I think that's really strange ... but if it's well defined, then ... shrug ...
 
minim a musical half note
 
I'm just throwing this out there ... but you could consider the original splat operator "array splat" and maybe we have an "object splat" operator "{...} $object", which behaves the same everywhere ... it's very much future scope-ish, but plays nicely with named parameters call({...} $argumentContainer) and probably other future stuff ...
just an idea, maybe terrible or impossible ...
(it's also badly named, but you get the gist - object or argumentContainer could be an assoc array or object)
 
8:09 AM
why not to move an $argumentContainer inside curly braces? like thaht call({...$argumentContainer}) ?
named parameters can be a next RFC I may try to revive
 
I've got no intuition about the parser at all, I don't know what syntax will work, I have to just try everything ... syntax is not important really, whatever works is good ...
 
morns
!!dad
 
"Ill call you later." Don't call me later, call me Dad
 
although I will say that {...} feels like a distinct operator moreso than {...$var}, but not really important ...
moin
@NikiC love the idea of RFC's on github, especially the discussion part ...
 
@JoeWatkins would it be a good idea to create a polls github app for privileged users only respecting github team or privileged users list in file at the same repo?
 
8:22 AM
what for ?
oh well, we'll probably always have the vote, and final document on the wiki ...
 
I kinda hope that the wider community gets an opportunity to vote to express their thoguhts, even if it's not actually counted.
 
I just like the idea of very very public discussion (which should hopefully stick a sock in certain peoples very large mouths), inline comments, and the visual indications already supported by github (like and whatever) ... and the idea that a github based RFC workflow implies that you no longer need any special blessing just to create an RFC ...
 
Yeah I think the visual indicators will be the biggest change
 
@brzuchal It would probably need to integrate with the php.net user system instead, because only relatively few people have access to GH
There's like 2000 voting members, and we probably have more like 20 users on GH ^^
 
privileged users list could be global_avail ... not in same repo, some jumping around to do because php ...
 
8:28 AM
2000? Bloody hell I thought it was more like 50
 
that's how many normally bother to vote
 
@NikiC If not many voting users on GH where would they vote then?
Would it be an issue for those 30 missing which normally vote to create a github account?
 
no the github organization for php just doesn't include every voting member, lots of voting members are on github but not in the php organization
 
O_O how could a person have direct influence over one of the most important pieces of software in the world and not bother to read the RFCs and vote. Boggles the mind.
 
If that's an issue for missing users why to move RFC's to GH if they wouldn't be able to discuss about RFCs?
 
8:31 AM
@brzuchal It's not about having a github account, but being part of the php organization on github
 
@MarkR I don't vote on every rfc ... I guess many people might only act if they think things are going in the wrong direction
 
@NikiC and how about uprivileged users list in file under the repo they vote?
 
it's not always the same 50, the impression is that it's the same base ~30, but then the rest are made up of people who just care about this particular topic ...
my impression may be wrong, but I see odd names pop up and then don't see them again for a year or whatever ...
 
BTW who's responsible for @php.net mail aliases? mine not working :(
 
I think derick has access to fix that sort of thing, but not totally sure
 
8:37 AM
@brzuchal the privileged users list can be accessed from master.php.net, though don't ask me how...
 
I get it Joe, still, 2000 users, dayum
 
@NikiC yes, but that could differ from GH account names, right?
 
@MarkR Mostly historical contributors
 
@brzuchal systems@php.net and cc. Sascha
 
yeah, we could probably drop a whole bunch of them and they wouldn't even know, they just moved on ...
 
8:38 AM
@brzuchal Ah, that's true
 
On the bright side.... probably best that certain people don't have to individually reply to disagree with 2000+ different posts on internals xD
 
also, goat moonings roomies
 
moin
I'd really love to move on from mailing lists, like drop them completely ...
 
@brzuchal Probably we should allow specifying the github name in the user settings on master.php.net. It would also be useful for other things (e.g. automatic merge bot)
 
doing business in a dark corner of the internet behind a broken fence with people peering over in all directions clearly creates problems for discourse ...
 
8:41 AM
I use thunderbird to read / post to internals because I struggle to keep up with externals.io after more than a dozen posts or so
 
externals.io is sometimes worse to read and keep track of than gmail imho :-(
 
Although admittedly I do like participating in here, being able to debate and get answers within minutes, seems like a much more productive use of time.
 
I like externals for linking, but don't use it for reading, too much noise ...
 
@salathe Thx a lot
 
the worst links in the world are the ones that point to news.php.net, they are barely even links ... I hate when rfc's link there, to the announcement and you have to wade through unrelated topics to read the discussion, that actually feels broken ...
 
8:45 AM
@NikiC BTW it should be possible to authorize using external Oauth2 if php.net ever got one to authorize users who can vote
That way it could work with external identity providers
 
Aye, well I look forward to github. Especially the non-post feedback.
On a slightly unrelated topic, I noticed visual studio (community 2019) seems to really struggle with intellisense (and even parsing) of the PHP source code. What's the go-to IDE?
 
vim
:P
 
PHPStorm only
@NikiC you should promote your company products... or maybe not they still got an issue with hijacking focus on IDE start
 
@brzuchal That would be CLion then, not PhpStorm. I don't think it works with php-src though, because we don't use cmake.
 
@JoeWatkins I usually link from there because externals.io is annoying to get a link from, you have to search the mail in middle of everything. on news.php.net you just have a listing of thread titles, date and author - can be spotted immediately visually
@NikiC do you know why they only support cmake?
 
8:55 AM
I like to think I pay for PHPStorm because it helps pay for Nikic to work on PHP... in reality I pay for PHPstorm because its local history feature has saved me more money than I can count by un-doing my site-wide-find-replace fuckups xD
 
I've always used php.markmail.org for finding threads and deep linking.
 
@NikiC was trying CLion but my laptop stopped responding, then I switched to VSC
 
@brzuchal been using clion, gtest horribly broke its syntax parsing
and it just can't work with multiple implementations of the same function
(as in: same header, but different implementations in different files which are not linked together)
always points me to one arbitrary implementation when I ctrl+click and it's annoying
 
I use VSC and it allows me to choose the right implementation I wanna jump into
 
Is VSC faster than MSVS?
 
9:01 AM
And it works with lldb out of the box
VSC is free
 
yeah, clion is still pretty much beta for me
 
MSVS not
 
Well, it is actually, but that's besides the point
 
CLion is build round cmake, while PHP uses automake. Don't work well out of the box.
 
Not the enterprise level features, but visual studio community is pretty packed.
 
9:03 AM
I've written an article about getting CLion to play well when writing PHP extensions.
https://dev.to/jasny/developing-a-php-extension-in-clion-3oo1
I didn't quite make it work well for php-src yet, but it's just a matter of a bit more love and effort I think.
 
@Jasny-ArnoldDaniels nice!
 
What's the proper way to manage/generate package.xml for an existing PECL lib? I'm currently editing it manually, but I'm getting the impression that I'm doing it wrong.
 
@Jasny-ArnoldDaniels I'm also editing manually
And also think I'm doing it wrong :D
 
@NikiC Is pyrus a thing or is that a dead project? I'm using the `pecl` command, but I do see `pyrus make`.
https://pear.php.net/manual/en/pyrus.commands.make.php
 
Hey, can someone explain me why a heavy framework like Laravel has no build in tests for them self? How do then know if a PR is good or not?
 
9:13 AM
@Adam they do have tests, how do you reccon they don't?
 
@Jasny-ArnoldDaniels no idea. keep in mind that pear/pecl is essentially dead as well, so...
 
Pear is dead, but pecl? What's the alternative to that?
 
@Jasny-ArnoldDaniels manually editing here :-) i believe the source of truth on this issue is probably @Derick
 
@Jasny-ArnoldDaniels I mean the tooling, not the repository
 
pecl is still used everywhere to install packages. Don't think I've seen anything else. So maybe dead in development, but not in usage.
 
9:17 AM
@beberlei okay nvm there is the test folder xd
 
Anyway, I'll write something custom then and add it to Makefile.frag so you can do make package.xml.
 
@Jasny-ArnoldDaniels yes, that's what I meant
Basically the only development it gets is making it run on new PHP versions
 
@Jasny-ArnoldDaniels I edit manually.
and then use "pecl verify"
 
@Derick oohhh
 
haha we all learned something now ;)
 
9:20 AM
:-/ Ok I'll create something, maybe it can be added to php-src/phpize at some point.
 
Have done for 15 years. The pear tool's APIs are just too cumbersome, although the "mongodb" driver did use it with some hacks when it was first written
 
I'm working on a proper skeleton extension. In all honesty, I found the skeleton created by PHP pretty much useless.
https://github.com/improved-php-library/skeleton-php-ext (WIP)
 
the whole surface area of pear/pecl tooling is so large that you can't really just remove or replace it i guess
 
@beberlei sorry, I was confused - they have a test folder, but the test folder only contains text example for the user who wants to build a new framework. I wonder, where are the actual tests that tests the Laravel framework itself
 
@Jasny-ArnoldDaniels Don't want to burst your bubble, but that's probably a pointless effort. It has been done 3 times, and nobody really used any of them
 
9:22 AM
It's probably better if pecl just focusses on installing extensions and everything to build it is added to make.
 
@Adam are you looking in your project yourself or did you checkout laravel/framework repository?
check vendor/laravel/framework/tests
 
@Derick I'll use it myself, so that makes it already worth it :-). Hope that others find it as well.
 
@beberlei I looked in my vendor folder. But great, there it is :)! Thank you
 
Another question where I think I'm not going to like the answer from;
Is there a way to do continues integration for documentation? So I maintain the docs in the repo and when a new tag is created, it is pushed.
 
9:33 AM
Why not? Not sure of standard solutions, but not difficult to do yourself
 
we used readthedocs for this a while for doctrine
 
I'm asking it in the context of a PECL extension, so for documentation on php.net.
^^ Is someone doing continues integration for php.net documentation? @NikiC @Derick
 
9:52 AM
@Jasny-ArnoldDaniels No
 
@NikiC I do not know what the difference is between the "thumbs up", "hooray", "heart", and "rocket" emojis so I plus-oned all of them :)
 
@NikiC Is it still valid to do not publish any PR's? I wanna know if I should go with object initializer wiki approach or GH approach
 
Although, I have a script to update the Date/Time list of timezones: svn.php.net/viewvc/phpdoc/doc-base/trunk/scripts/…
 
@Derick ok that's something.
I hate the use of SVN for docs. @NikiC Can I do a PR on https://github.com/php/doc-en instead?
 
Not for this.
The docs are moving to GIT though, but that will take some time
php/doc-en is currently experimental
@NikiC I'm am really not keen moving away from the mailinglist to a PR for an RFC discussion as it means that the PHP project no longer "owns" that content, and it's beyond what we always have done -- people expect the discussions to happen on internals
 
10:02 AM
@NikiC Derick has a point. Would be great to have a GitLab instance running on php.net infrastructure and use pull requests there :-)
 
@brzuchal I wouldn't do it for now. We'll still need to have a discussion on whether we want to migrate to GH for RFCs. This is intended as a process example so we can better evaluate, but I don't think people will appreciate it if we just "silently" switch over to GH for all future RFCs.
 
The mailing list isn't great though. It's kinda not so easy to follow a discussion. Especially if you're mainly interested in that one RFC.
 
@Jasny-ArnoldDaniels PRs to that repo are possible, but everything gets committed under my name ... if you want to submit something larger, probably best stick with SVN.
 
Okay, I'll think about it.
 
@Derick It's true that we no longer host the content, though we could export it, if there's interest. We can also set up a mailing list to which all the content goes (we already have the setup for this, on php-langspec for example).
But in the end, it's a tradeoff, and in my experience from other projects, having RFC discussions on GitHub is just so much better for discussion quality that it blows any of those questions out of the water
 
10:07 AM
My point is more that you've decided on your own to do discussions in a different way.
 
Github doesn't work for voting, so you still have multiple places. Would be nice if the PR + RFC + discussion + voting was all in one place.
 
@SebastianBergmann I don't trust the PHP project to maintain infra. It's really terrible at it.
 
Kinda like the suggestion of @SebastianBergmann to use a self-hosted GitLab
 
It might be somewhat beneficial to encourage people to use emoticon responses if they don't have anything to actually add. I bring it up because I noticed I just got an email that said nothing more than "This feature would be great!"
 
@Derick I haven't decided anything, I'm just hosting a once-off experiment for now.
 
10:09 AM
tbh, I think it's fine to have a first round there, but you must allow for comments and discussion on internals
(unless you get an RFC passed to do so otherwise)
 
I do, I explicitly mentioned that in the mail
 
10:28 AM
@nikio
@NikiC Great rfc!
Let's see when someone drops in and claims it being invalid for not being in the wiki cough
 
Morngins
 
@Jasny-ArnoldDaniels have you seen github.com/ThomasWeinert/php-extension-sample ?
 
Yes, that has been my primary source of information. I think you pointed it to me half a year ago :)
Together with phpinternals.net and just looking at the php-src.
The skeleton from that repo is way too basic though. Not enough for an ext you want to publish on PECL and no CI.
 
@Jasny-ArnoldDaniels I have most of the stuff needed for CI on docuementation here: github.com/Danack/PHPDocTool
However this is one of the use-cases where the slow speed of the filesystem of Docker on OSX is actually a problem. It takes too long imo to rebuild.
The code that is currently used to do a partial rebuild of the manual is .....not really good enough as it does some quite impressive hacks to only rebuild very few parts, but that doesn't cover quite a few of the edits you'd want to do.
 
It's neither here nor there, but github.com/php/php-src/blob/master/… could do with changing the branch info to reflection PHP 7.4 being frozen
 
10:37 AM
The problem is solving that properly would involve a file-system watcher, that would need to watch all of the files in the manual. And for Docker on OSX that grinds the host machine to be very slow, so I got depressed/annoyed.
 
ok, I'm running ubuntu locally, so I shouldn't really need to use docker
Yeah, the online editor :-(. Not a fan.
The documentation in the wiki seems outdated. Or maybe I just didn't understand.
 
Documentation......outdated? ARE YOU SURE?
 
hello all
using PHPMailer_6 to send emails, if the email body is html, can i use a foreach loop to create the table in html? or shoud i make the table before insert on email body?
 
@NoobDEV-GBL I pretty strongly recommend making all of the stuff that will be used by the next step, before it's needed by the next step. That would be true in your particular case, but also just in general.
 
10:54 AM
:47213142 so...shoud this not worck right?
foreach($tablevar as $item){
 $test = '
<tr>
    <td>
        <?php echo utf8_encode($item["0"]);?>
    </td>
    <td>
        <?php echo utf8_encode($item["2"]);?>
    </td>
</tr>'

 }
 $mail->Body = $test;
 
!!debugger
 
@NoobDEV-GBL You can't really use PHP as templating engine and stick that body in an email with PHPMailer. You need to add things as a string.
Alternatively (and recommended) use a different templating engine like Twig.
 
You have what looks like a single character typo in your code. This is a good time to learn how to debug your code to see what it's actually doing, rather than asking other people to debug it for you.
 
I have a class that uses Twig with PHPMailer. It's from an old project, so it might be using an outdated Twig and PHPMailer.
https://gist.github.com/jasny/37dfc04aaf8478fa8bea800ffed97d7b
 
10:57 AM
Do yourself a favour and write a function that uses output buffering but catches \Throwable to close it on an error, and return the result. Much easier to put things into a string like that.
 
Don't use the output buffer. That's so unreliable.
You can do
If you don't want to use Twig.
 
Okay, how exactly is the output buffer unreliable? o_O
Because if it is... I have to change some things
 
If you have display_errors enabled, it will end up in your e-mail.
If you call a function that applies logic to the output buffer, it gets applied to the e-mail instead.
etc etc
 
anyone who doesn't throw an exception on an unsilenced error......is a silly person.
 
well tanks for the help of all of you, and sorry for the basic FAQ
 
11:00 AM
@Danack. Its PHP that triggers warnings for everything.
 
function saneErrorHandler($errorNumber, $errorMessage, $errorFile, $errorLine): bool
{
    if (error_reporting() === 0) {
        // Error reporting has been silenced
        if ($errorNumber !== E_USER_DEPRECATED) {
        // Check it isn't this value, as this is used by twig, with error suppression. :-/
            return true;
        }
    }
    if ($errorNumber === E_DEPRECATED) {
        return false;
    }
    if ($errorNumber === E_CORE_ERROR || $errorNumber === E_ERROR) {
        // For these two types, PHP is shutting down anyway. Return false
 
@MarkR I just want to send in html a table with the values ​​I have in the array, I thought this was the best way ....
 
I just set that as my error handler.....I tend not to have warnings for everything.
 
I throw \Error myself, but I use $errorFile to exclude anything in /vendor
 
@NoobDEV-GBL just crack on with separating the stuff out, and maybe learn to use that debugger if it's still not doing what you want.
 
11:03 AM
@Danack ok tanks, i will do that
 
php > echo utf8_encode(['hello', 'world']);
PHP Warning:  utf8_encode() expects parameter 1 to be string, array given in php shell code on line 1
 
@Jasny-ArnoldDaniels yes....? your code has an error in it....maybe fix it?
 
I'm not arguing against your error handler. It's very sane. I'm doing something similar.
Regardlessly, I think relying on the output buffer is a bad idea. Burned myself on it too often in the past.
 
@Danack why that extra branch in error_reporting() == 0? why not just move the E_DEPRECATED check before?
 
my laziness possibly outranges my programming skill......also it's basically never called, so never been optimised.
oh apart from in twig.
fyi, I only remembered to enable opcache on my server last week....
 
11:10 AM
Oops :P
 
I do allow configuring errors with error_reporting
if ((error_reporting() & $errorNumber) === 0) return;
 
We're now using 7.4 on our public test site at work so we can qualify it at the same time as our new codebase, I've been playing with pre-loading and it seems to work well, noticable improvement on microservices.
 
I use ini_set to enable at least warnings and above for the project.
 
If I have a cookie on a production domain, and the domain setting is 'example.com', and I also have cookies for local dev, and their domain is set to 'local.example.com' - will those two clash, or will the local one take priority when accessing local?
 
@MarkR With microservices (like AWS Lambda), it doesn't really help if the system needs to be (re)initialized right. Did you play around with opcode file caching as well?
 
11:16 AM
Lambda is just a provisioning mechanism, and not one I use. I deploy microservices using FPM or more recently swoole.
But when you're pushing 10 to 15 million requests an hour, the CPU time of the setup process and linking can start to add up
 
How can you serve microservices with Swoole? I don't understand.
Yes, lambda is better for infrequently used services imho.
 
It seems I am the only one who dislikes "discussions" on github instead of on the mailinglist?
 
Not the only one @PeeHaa but it seems to be proving it's worth with the ability to reference things.
@Jasny-ArnoldDaniels I have a Kubernetes cluster that manages scaling itself. Using horizontal pod autoscaling and suitable CPU metrics my microservice deployments can go from 2 pods capable of handling a couple of thousand users, to 20 pods capable of handling tens of thousands.
 
I already get confused when more than 2 people do normal code reviews. This is making it worse :(
imo ymmv iamal
 
It seems I am #5 in this months php-src commits, that seems wrong in sooo many ways. Although I did just realise that all my git commits were on my work account, ffs.
 
11:27 AM
@PeeHaa you sound old. Get with the times, gimmer.
 
I don't know why the downvotes for a 'null' type. Seems a pretty obvious future-proof mechanism. I say "all"... there's like.. 8
 
But mails are much easier to read on my 80 chars width terminal :(
 
Perhaps you could persuade a young person to print out the conversations and have them posted to you?
Also:
> I believe it'll result in a more on-topic and relevant discussion:
 
Thank for posting that video afterwards and not letting me hang there after the colon :)
 
@PeeHaa You're not alone.
 
11:35 AM
I have followed your advice and properly given the fields.
but when sending the email only sends the last value of the variable, should not make a table with several values?
 
@PeeHaa I'm with you, it is too convoluted to read on Github
 
foreach($tablevar as $item){
$out ='<tr>';
$out .='<td>'.utf8_encode($item["0"]).'</td>';
$out .='</tr>';
}
 
@NoobDEV-GBL So how is learning how to debug your code going?
40 mins ago, by Danack
You have what looks like a single character typo in your code. This is a good time to learn how to debug your code to see what it's actually doing, rather than asking other people to debug it for you.
 
hmmmm and here I thought I was all alone
 
its going.... and i'm trying not to ask
 
11:36 AM
@NoobDEV-GBL There is a really tiny chance you actually want to use utf8_encode ever
 
@PeeHaa I can see it being nice that you can reference and comment on every single part of the RFC, but reading it is hard to follow, more comments for the author is great but in a way I think the barrier for the ML (not that its hard by any means despite popular opinion), it may be good, at least thats my preference
 
@Kalle I'm going to post my next RFC on twitch, and people have to stream their responses to it. Or instagram.
 
@Danack lmfao
 
@Danack jhejeheh
 
and here I was gonna snap my response to you
 
11:37 AM
#BCBREAK #TYPESYSTEM
 
@PeeHaa you are right, tanks
 
#P++
 
I'm wondering what @Derick is going to cover on his next podcast. Dunno about twitch but phpinternals.news seems to be a place where a bunch of RFCs are getting discussed.
 
26 Nicolas Grekas Making Symfony ready for PHP 7.4
27 Nikita Popov Argument Information
28 Andreas Heigl Moving PHP Documentation to GIT
29 Nikita Popov Reclassifying engine warnings
And then union types at some point. Nikita does too much :-)
 
@Derick sounds like a great programme, thanks for sharing!
You could rename the show; "Nikita and Derick on Internals"
 
11:42 AM
@Danack We should all meet in a big hall, around a large table, and discuss these things in person with beer (or preferred beverage) and feasts. #medieval #oldschool #roundtable
> 28 Andreas Heigl Moving PHP Documentation to GIT

*sigh*
 
@salathe careful there, Derick might show up with his viking helm back from the unconference he used to host in Norway
 
@salathe Why stop there? Each RFC should propose a champion for and against, tight RFCs should be decided by throwing rotten food at them, person who remains standing the longest wins
... or maybe that's just something we did on a trip to the jorvik viking centre
 
@Kalle The Derick and Nikita show :-)
@salathe Why sigh?
 
@Derick I like it already
 
@Kalle I lost that helmet :-/
 
Aww, I remember a picture with a non-so-amused Rasmus wearing it
 
@Derick Not a discussion I want to have here
 
OK
 
11:45 AM
haha, yes
 
... well that's one way of demonstrating superiority.
 
Hey to all. I am trying to build a Laravel-React app, and while building the registration/login logic, I started seeing there are many approaches to authentication(jwt, auth2,passport). Any idea where I could find some readings on what approaches work best in relation with what one wants to create?
 
@NikiC You got a point there, unfortunately.
 
> This RFC targets PHP version 7.1.
 
@JoeWatkins Yeah, just discovers this.
 
11:56 AM
@ConstantineBlack No....annoyingly all the articles I have seen are completely biased and are strongly in favour of one tech, without justification for why it might be appropriate.
If you see any good ones, I'd like to read them also.
btw you missed out just using cookies, which y'know, still work.
 
Highly dependent on the use case, is it not?
 
@Derick Is there something like php vikinger (of the same concept) around in Europe with a php centric theme? I did enjoy attending that 2007 event and it was a nice reminder of the past
 
@MarkR it should be....
 
@Danack Thanks; well, indeed, what you said seems to be the case; I even started a tutorial at some point only to find out the code had some major problems on the back-end. Any articles around the use of cookies with laravel on the back-end and react on the front-end you found useful?
 
@Kalle I still own the domain name, but afaik there is nothing like it. Perhaps the German unconf one?
 
12:10 PM
And why there some much attention on stateless auth?
 
@NikiC yea, well, it's also not really clear who has access to what, possible to request access to assist, nor do we have any consistent build system deployed with something like ansible or puppet etc.
 
Sorry no for that also. For my last project, we just setup a login endpoint for the api to use, which returned an API key, and then we added something in React to always add that api key to the headers for each request, and added a piece of middleware to check that the api key was set. It worked reasonably well for our simple use case.
 
@Derick Hmm maybe, I was thinking 10+ years without attending a (un)conference or event. I did really enjoy that atmosphere at vikinger
 
@ConstantineBlack i) it's cool. ii) at scale having a single point of info for whether people are logged in or not can get annoying.
 
@Danack
Thanks.
 
12:13 PM
@Kalle web enginering unconference on mallorca is a descendant of the german php unconference
 
np.
 
@Kalle we were so young
@beberlei I've always found that way too german :-/
 
@Derick I woke up at Hannes hotel room, was too young to drink at a club in Norway at the time xD
 
@Derick yeah, we germans like to speak german way to quickly even if there is international people around
 
12:15 PM
If you have not burned your pants on the grill you have not been to Vikinger :)
 
there is nothing like php benelux at the moment imho :)
i was told maybe php day italy, but i was never there
 
that's the most productive start to a discussion that I remember happening .... no one even opened the bike shed door ...
 
@SebastianBergmann That wasn't at Vikinger, or on a grill (but a bon fire)
oh wait... different event
.oO( I said too much )
 
@beberlei that looks interesting, gonna bookmark this for sure :)
 
@JoeWatkins The union types one?
 
12:20 PM
yep
I wouldn't delete a single comment ... given the same power over the mailing lists, they would be almost empty ...
 
I think the only contentious thing is nullables, and being able to see comments inline is beneficial.
 
@JayIsTooCommon ahh shit sorry
I kept seeing notifications on my phone and then forgetting
 
Although after 20+ email notifications, I think I'm going to have to change my notification settings.
 
yeah it was loud, but there are no essays, I stopped reading for a while and came back and reread from the start, at no point was I angry or frustrated at volume, didn't feel like my time was being wasted ... I like this a lot ...
 
@JoeWatkins It's only because you put it in a walled garden ;-)
 
12:24 PM
Well, put it into a different walled garden
 
One where rules are not guidelines?
 
Into the one that contains PHP devs, rather than the one that contains Zeev ;)
 
He's still on holiday isn't he?
 
Well, if he's on holiday, it certainly hasn't stopped him from commenting on internals ;)
 
internals doesn't even work, you can't subscribe to it, and nobody knows why or how to fix it, at this point it feels like the only new signups are people that find this room and or derick on twitter ... the walls are 20 feet high and could fall and kill you at any moment, it's not better at all ...
 
12:31 PM
you can signup via the .subscribe email, only the web form doesnt work
 
I'm quite happy with a new garden, which we don't have to maintain, which was designed by people who design gardens for a living ... actually ...
 
I only access said walled garden via a nntp client, which seems a bit more accessible.
 
@beberlei okay but from the outside, one of the engineers that works on php just told me the reason for broken infrastructure is that a web form doesn't work ... a php engineer ...
it's totally ridiculous and been going on for years ...
 
@JoeWatkins internals-subscribe@lists.php.net? (its one of the few exceptions to the php- prefix)
 
I assume using nntp has some dodgy side effects though, I've noticed when people reply to my comments, they always appear as children of the parent comment I myself replied to, rather than as a child of mine
 
yes, I know about subscribe, but it doesn't make it less stupid that the people who write php can't make a web form work and have been failing to make it work so consistently that they even mention the work around right under the web form .... this is a symptom of us not giving a shit about infra and to a lesser extent communications, so why bother to continue to pretend that we do, let's just hand over to a platform that works ...
 
It could be that mail the form sends it as, as it also includes the user in the part before the @-sign, instead of leaving that to the From: part, but I have no idea how ezmlm work
 
nobody knows how it works
 
@DaveRandom craziness. I even slid into your Dm’s. Starting to think you don’t fancy me anymore :/
 
@SebastianBergmann ping
 
12:44 PM
@JoeWatkins untroubled.org/ezmlm/manual/Sending-commands.html The subscribe command seems to be fine, so maybe the error log is being flooded or something on master, I don't think I got access to any of those boxes to check myself
 
@JayIsTooCommon twatter has stopped notifying me of DMs for some reason and I rarely open it any more
sorry babe
 

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