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12:25 AM
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Houseman
@BSMP She also very clearly states that pinging/flagging mods are not disallowed. Do you have any other issues with this answer? — Houseman 1 min ago
 
1:09 AM
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by charlietfl
Opinions - like in the very first stub ever used above that starts out in first person "I like..."? — charlietfl 44 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by zixuan
If a new user wanted to write a nice clean answer and it instead was a stub and it is marked as a stub, that new user also might be angry and not want others improving it because he might not like the word "stub", he thinks SO is not friendly to new users or something else. — zixuan 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by peterSO
How is this different from the documentation project, which failed? — peterSO 5 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by zixuan
Reminder: MSO users only can view posts until they have 5 rep. — zixuan 49 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by zixuan
Why would we need a stub? Community wiki answers already address not-good answers. Even though this might be good, some people would also want to delete partial answers on SO which is the opposite of what you're proposing, to keep them. — zixuan 53 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by sinaraheneba
You say that we need stubs because we need partial answers, and we need partial answers because... well, they're acceptable anyway. That doesn't seem like a particularly strong case for why these posts are worthy not just of being kept, but of being edited and worked on others to 'flesh out' an idea. Devil's advocate--doesn't an answer being so incomplete people decline to post them, and are downvoted if they are posted, heavily imply that the answer has not been adequately considered, and may ultimately be incorrect or fruitless after further fleshing out? — sinaraheneba 58 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tiny Giant
@zixuan I answered that twice in the proposal. — Tiny Giant 24 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tiny Giant
@peterSO how is it the same in any way? — Tiny Giant 53 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tiny Giant
@sinaraheneba I'm trying to provide a solution to the problem of people being afraid of posting partial answers in the answer form and instead posting them in the comment form. Partial answers are and have always been acceptable, I'm not arguing that they should become acceptable. Everything that I suggest here is allowed right now. "This is to create a clear signal to the community that edits of all shapes and sizes are welcome to such posts, and the normal ownership rules have been willfully forfeit in the goal of constructively fleshing out the answer."Tiny Giant 32 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by zixuan
@TinyGiant I know, but what if someone came up with another proposal to delete partial answers right after being flagged for LQP? — zixuan 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by zixuan
They are not off-topic but what if the user was also proposing to make them off-topic? Two people might have totally different ideas for partial answers. — zixuan 15 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tiny Giant
@zixuan This is for users to do to their own posts. Why would someone be angry that they did it to themselves? — Tiny Giant 27 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tiny Giant
@zixuan partial answers are not nor have they ever been off-topic on meta. — Tiny Giant 2 mins ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by zixuan
He would not be angry that he did it to himself. He would be angry because he thinks SO is not friendly for users like him and also as I mentioned, not like the word "stub . — zixuan 6 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tiny Giant
@zixuan I don't understand how that has anything to do with this proposal? — Tiny Giant 36 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by zixuan
Alright, let's say that partial answers are acceptable but some people would not like the idea. — zixuan 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tiny Giant
I'm suggesting a common agreed upon format for a template to relinquish ownership of your own post in the goal of getting help from the community fleshing it out and stimulating constructive discussion. All of which is currently allowed. — Tiny Giant 51 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tiny Giant
Partial answers are acceptable, and always have been. Some people don't like that. That doesn't change that they are acceptable, and that I'm not suggesting that we make anything acceptable that is not already acceptable. @zixuan — Tiny Giant 2 mins ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by JL2210
@TinyGiant I'm not saying they are. — JL2210 40 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tiny Giant
Why does your method preclude the suggested method (which is not currently disallowed under the current system?) Partial answers have not ever been off-topic. Neither has been relinquishing ownership of the content. — Tiny Giant 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tiny Giant
"editing it to fill it in may cause slight differences of opinion and wording" that is entirely the point. — Tiny Giant 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tiny Giant
"Besides the fact that it will require editing the post to get a good, well written post" this has always been true, and is nothing new. — Tiny Giant 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by JL2210
@TinyGiant You're only criticizing the less important parts. For example, "slight differences of opinion and wording" may make it hard to read or understand the post. Posts that are jigsaw-puzzles of different people's opinions and grammar are difficult to understand. — JL2210 50 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tiny Giant
"may make it hard to read or understand the post" any edit in the world may make a post harder to read. Should all edits be banned? No. We have solutions to the problem of problematic edits... More edits! — Tiny Giant 34 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tiny Giant
My entire point here is that it is better than a comment. Not that it is a good answer. That partial answers are allowed, and we need a frictionless option for people to post their partial answers as answers, because... people are afraid to do so currently. I.e., the current system doesn't work and we need to make a really minor change to boost the signal that these specific posts are more open than ever for the community to come in and help edit them into shape. Why is it a bad idea to try to foster better (more constructive) communication on meta? — Tiny Giant 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tiny Giant
Yes, you should definitely try that. — Tiny Giant 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by JL2210
@TinyGiant Aren't good answers what we're looking for? We can foster more constructive communication on Meta by being more constructive in our communication. — JL2210 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by JL2210
@TinyGiant Please top making assumptions about what I'm saying. I'm not trying to have edits banned, I'm merely saying that when a large number of users contribute to a post (especially on a heavily-opinionated site like Meta), that post may have conflicting opinions that could cause it to be hard to understand. — JL2210 9 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Robert Columbia
Have you considered a temporary break from reviewing the mod queue? Sort of like the review suspensions that are given to regular users who mess up? — Robert Columbia 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tiny Giant
@zixuan I'm sorry but I don't understand your response. — Tiny Giant 8 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tiny Giant
That's already a thing. We already have community wiki posts, and we already have methods of clearing up a lack of clarity caused by edits, and the entire point of this is that you would be relinquishing your write to claim ownership of the original idea, so there could not possibly be conflicting opinions. — Tiny Giant 48 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by JL2210
@TinyGiant Then why not just create community-wiki answers? Doesn't that accomplish the exact same thing without having to attach a quote-box in your answer with a link to this question? — JL2210 33 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Clonkex
"the community generally responds to partial answers with downvotes" Do they? — Clonkex 41 secs ago
 
2:15 AM
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tiny Giant
@Clonkex generally yes. They do. — Tiny Giant 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tiny Giant
Also, would you mind responding to my clarification requests at some point? — Tiny Giant 9 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tiny Giant
Everything that I've said here I've said more than once in my proposal, did you read my proposal? — Tiny Giant 49 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tiny Giant
Because... people are afraid to do so currently. I.e., the current system doesn't work and we need to make a really minor change to boost the signal that these specific posts are more open than ever for the community to come in and help edit them into shape. — Tiny Giant 2 mins ago
 
2:37 AM
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by JL2210
@TinyGiant Yes, I read your proposal. — JL2210 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by JL2210
I guess this is sort of a one-sided argument at this point. — JL2210 59 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by JL2210
How about just unsetting the language override for [cocoa-touch]? — JL2210 54 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by JL2210
One quick question: How often are elections held? — JL2210 1 min ago
 
 
1 hour later…
3:53 AM
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by nitsua60
@sth I'll reply for RPG; no idea on other sites. On meta we do little comment-moderation. Top occasion being that a discussion brewing in comments seems substantial enough (and distinct enough from the OP) that we encourage its spawning of another meta and firmly request that discussion of it in its current location stop. Second occasion being personal/personality-driven attacks/rudeness. That said, in my years participating in RPG I've not seen 1/10th the heated argument that the last two weeks here have produced--I'm not sure how useful the comparison is. However, if you'll allow me to [1/2] — nitsua60 5 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by nitsua60
[2/2] opine, I'd say that it's not clear to me how well the needs of meta discussion were being met here. The staff have said that they don't like how it goes. (How that doesn't get everybody to hit the brakes and say "whoa, we gotta rethink this" befuddles me.) There's a lot of piling-on and repetition: symptoms (IMO) of people not feeling heard or like there are effective ways to communicate. And some pretty strong personalities not shy about levying personal attacks--that does a lot (IME) to push away the 90% (SWAG, there) of meta readers who don't actively participate. — nitsua60 59 secs ago
 
 
2 hours later…
5:43 AM
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Cris Luengo
The three answers below all assume this is for answering questions on Meta. The OP doesn't seem to suggest that to me, I assumed it is about answering questions in Main. Could you clarify which of those is the goal for these stubs? — Cris Luengo 14 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by piet.t
Ummm, "Seasoned Advice" - like "For Professional and Amateur Chefs"? Looking forward to read "How to use strip to peel my potatoes". — piet.t 40 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Davy M
@Cris Umm... The title explicitly says "This answer is a stub. A partial solution for partial answers on Meta" So I'm about 99.999728% sure that the OP is suggesting that. — Davy M 28 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Davy M
@Zixuan This proposal doesn't ever suggest marking other users' answers as stubs, it specifically says that the poster is the one who must decide if their post is a stub and make it a community wiki themselves, so the whole worry about offense because their answer gets marked a stub is misplaced. The proposal also suggests educating people who post these partial answers as comments, to suggest they start an answer to build from, which I really can't imagine somebody getting offended about. "That comment would be a good start to an answer, did you know you can post an answer [stub]?" — Davy M 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Davy M
I don't see how the 5 reputation comment is relevant here, there are new users to Meta with 5 reputation and with 500,000 reputation, many users from all over the place come to Meta and have bad experiences because they don't know what to expect. I simply suggest that this would help lower that barrier between expectation and reality by giving another way to participate in Meta. — Davy M 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Cris Luengo
@DavyM: wow, I totally missed that. — Cris Luengo 52 secs ago
 
6:19 AM
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Magisch
I'm one of the people with the discussion gold badge, and I'm not sure I agree. Having a lot of answers does not necessarily imply the skills necessary for being an effective RO. — Magisch 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by rene
Yes, first flagged post so flagged comments won't contribute to that badge. Also note that the daily limit of flags you can raise is also separated. I can raise 100 post flags and 100 comments flags per day. — rene 7 secs ago
 
6:35 AM
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by rene
MSO users only can view posts until they have 5 rep. That must be a typo. Even without an account you can view posts. Viewing of non--deleted posts is never restricted, on any site in the SE network. That feature doesn't exist. You must have confused it with the minimum rep of 5 needed to be able to POST on Meta. — rene 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by rene
The whole point is that a lot of users prefer to comment instead of simply just create an answer. The point is that when Meta attracts fresh idea's from new users it is a burden to flesh those ideas out in comments. And as most Meta regulars have passed the point that they immediately spot a potential good idea, having an extra mechanism to lift those pearls out of a lengthy comment thread does help to make needed changes and be welcoming and helpful to those new contributions. — rene 51 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Mr Lister
@rene No, zixuan meant they can view, but not edit until they have 5 points. — Mr Lister 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Davy M
@Mr Lister That's not quite accurate either, edit community wikis is a 100 rep privilege. At 5 rep a user can post an answer or question to Meta. — Davy M 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by rene
While this is not un-true I don't understand why this is an argument to NOT have answers that start as stubs, for example "opinions" that started off as a good comment. It encourages sharing opinions and allows the community to better express their conclusions, be it by voting or by comments under the answer stub. — rene 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by dWinder
@rene - that what I saw and deduce from that description - just want to make sure. How should I change my post to be more about the best practice (in my option) that they should be consistence? — dWinder 49 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by rene
Why should they be consistent? — rene 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by dWinder
Because currently all the group badge as the same with the action and the way you earn them and different only in the bar (the score / the days / the post number ...) — dWinder 1 min ago
 
7:07 AM
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by dWinder
Do notice the first flag doesn't has to be correct (as you saying) - look at the link in my question - it is not must to be helpful. — dWinder 16 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Sinatr
That "stub" idea remind of dead "Docu", which I totally ignored. Not my way of communicating to people. I can chat (comments) or answer. I can't stub. Probably those wiki-editors can, not sure what motivates them. On SO I was motivated by points, now I have some and can "buy" answers when in need (privileges too), this is very satisfactory feeling, which then grown into a habit and currently I don't care about points anymore. Always answering into stubs would be a nightmare. I'd probably only read. — Sinatr 16 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Cindy Meister
I don't understand the point of this suggestion. How can there be a partial answer in Meta that others should flesh out? Can you give a couple of examples for which this would be relevant? — Cindy Meister 16 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Sinatr
Meta has no problem with answers. What is this change attempting to fix? — Sinatr 49 secs ago
 
7:33 AM
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by rene
Even more awesome — rene just now
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by jww
Forgive my ignorance... What problem does this solve? In my observation, most questions - if answerable - can garner a complete answer. It seems like partial answers would encourage incomplete answers. Incomplete answers would probably frustrate visitors if they have to piece together a singular answer from multiple, partial answers. — jww 12 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by rene
@CindyMeister examples are suggestions left in comments. The point is to lift out / highlight potential that might get lost in comments, specially when we are discussing heated topics and the increased comment moderation it might be hard if not impossible to work out a rough idea with potential into something that might has value. Comments are a notoriously bad tool for that purpose, specially when that only happens under a question. I think might also help new meta contributors get going on meta, instead of the regular 0,015% shutting down every new initiative at first sight. — rene 2 mins ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Trilarion
@PeterMortensen "Aren't chat messages less prone to be deleted than comments?" It depends on what kind of deletion one means. I meant that the system seems to automatically delete old chats under certain circumstances while it doesn't seem to do so for comments. I clarified the answer accordingly. — Trilarion 18 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Trilarion
@Shog9 "I've had folks write me lengthy, multi-paragraph answers in the form of a string of back-to-back comment replies. Not only is this nearly impossible to respond to..." Just my two cents. The best is probably not responding in such cases or responding with "Sorry, can't answer adequately in comments. If you make it a full question, I'd be happy to respond." — Trilarion 59 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by rene
Hey @RobertColumbia that comment is a bit out of character as it reads to me as a snark towards the user. That is not how I remember your regular comments. Is that just me or was that your intent in this single case? — rene 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by SPArchaeologist
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I will be fair - keeping saying that I have made up the quotes kinda seems ignoring the fact that I already said multiple times that the quotes were not made up, just rewritten to protect the users who said them. That said, since apparently British English does indeed use quotation marks in a way that differ my first language, I will agree and change those to just use italics. I won't change them to the original ones - I could easily do that but the previous point still stand - this post is not a place to namecall other users. — SPArchaeologist 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by l4mpi
@Shog9 "Not only is this nearly impossible to respond to in any sane way" - I don't understand what kind of argument you attempt to make here, because the situation you describe seems to be just as unmanageable in chat. Writing answers back and forth (or writing an answer each and editing it 10 times) does not seem to be a better solution either. The only "benefit" of chat that comes to mind is that chat has a higher barrier to entry, meaning you get less participants and readers for any discussion. Is that really what you want? — l4mpi 55 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Andrew T.
And well, is this answer really a stub? — Andrew T. 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by rene
(2/2) ... I can envision this will encourage more users to chime in. It will move comments from under the question to an answer making it easier to follow and support specific positions on a topic. It might also help users that are new on meta to participate, instead of the usual suspects re-iterating their stance — rene 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by rene
@jww the point is, on meta with in its nature on discussion posts there won't be a singular answer. At best there will be a singular answer that the majority of voters deemed useful. The idea, at least from how I see it, is to have the meta discussion posts covering and fleshing out multiple POV also from those that didn't get beyond a comment. (1/2) .... — rene 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by peterh
@TinyGiant Maybe I am only not evil. — peterh 51 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Boooo Booooo
Why downvote without explaining the reason? — Boooo Booooo 27 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by rene
If anything, it will be useless on Main. The Q/A model is not helping when it comes to discussing a topic. Specially not if comments is your only feature to find out if there is potential in an idea that popped-up. That is where the answer stub comes in handy to have a focused exchange of information to see if there is value. In a comment thread that has more > 15 comments, how do you suppose this works? — rene 19 secs ago
 
8:45 AM
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Andrew T.
@rene hmm... now I think I can imagine how it can be done. I think what we actually want is probably more similar to the per-article Talk page on Wikipedia where it can contain many sections to discuss separate issues with the article and expand it. I can say the comment system on SE is inferior to that. The analogy that I can think is a threaded chat (if it's implemented in 6-8 years). But otherwise, I can see the answer stubs might be the best solution for now. — Andrew T. 46 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Samuel Liew
No offense taken. Anyway it was a month ago and I have took a long break since then... — Samuel Liew ♦ 5 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by bin
@meagar why is that functionality even there if it is so bad? — bin 42 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Matt Ellen
@rene that's how I read it, i.e the only thing user can do if they have less than 5 reps is view posts. — Matt Ellen 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Adriaan
To post a stub as comment: what do we do with badges? Luckily meta does not have bounties, but on main if you are the OP of a CW post, you're the one getting badges for +10/+25/+100 answers etc, as well as reputation any bounties granted to that answer. What to do with that? Bounties are luckily of no concern here, but badge-farming could potentially be. — Adriaan 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by rene
Yeah, I don't think this claims to be perfect. It tries to make meta work better within the current feature set, I think to also break-out of this endless-loop of we can't do anything until we have better tools, so let's tear the place down with the tools we have to demonstrate how bad they are ... — rene 56 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Cerbrus
Possible duplicate of What's the standard on which comments on meta Stack Overflow are moved to chat?. (No vote, since I don't want to unilaterally hammer this) — Cerbrus 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Michael Berry
"Whenever a moderator feels like it". — Michael Berry 39 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by l4mpi
@Shog9 not at all related, as the question you're linking to is clearly about main, not meta. As the standard for questions on meta differs from main (e.g. we allow open ended discussions here), it's clear that comments should also be treated different. — l4mpi 51 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Yvette Colomb
@Cerbrus this was posted intentionally as an adjunct the that. This covers all comment deletion- the other just covers moving comments to chat. — Yvette Colomb ♦ 53 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by rene
@Adriaan and why is that badge farming actually a bad thing? — rene 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Adriaan
@rene we award badges for genuine good behaviour. Posting a stub and then having someone(s) other expanding it rewards you for something you didn't do. On meta badges do not matter much, so I don't see a big problem there. However, once this gets ported to main I do see a large problem: the bounties. — Adriaan 24 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by rene
This is NOT meant for main. It says so in the tile title, it is tagged meta. Answers stubs tries to solve a problem on Meta and on Meta only. — rene 55 secs ago
 
9:51 AM
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Andrew T.
Note: The author deleted this answer because it was based on the wrong understanding of the question (and to see how "deleting stub answer" and/or "self-deletion" will be handled) — Andrew T. 58 secs ago
 
10:01 AM
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Gimby
It sounds like a good idea to outsource preliminary research to "save time". Who wants to spend an hour or two reading through book descriptions and reviews, right? Except that what you expect: getting maybe one or two books recommended, is absolutely not what is going to happen. You'll probably get dozens of books recommended; maybe 50+ even. Because when you ask for opinions, you get the hear what people like themselves and not what you may need and boy are there a lot of people out there. You might as well get to that two hour preliminary research effort at once, it'll save you time! — Gimby 1 min ago
 
10:15 AM
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Compo
I agree with, "Accept whatever helped you the most", and based upon your comment, @j.xavier.atero, "it works! this approach it's a better fit for my specific problem and I will use it.", it's clear that you should change your vote in this instance. — Compo 23 secs ago
 
10:27 AM
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by George Stocker
this looks like you’re asking a question about why Stack overflow prefers answers over comments. Did you mean to ask a new meta question instead? 😁 — George Stocker ♦ 13 secs ago
 
10:39 AM
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Mark Amery
@GeorgeStocker To the extent that I'm asking questions here, they are all rhetorical. As for the idea of posting this as a question, do you really mean to suggest that the proper way to discuss whether there's value in allowing users to appeal comment deletion or whether comment authors should instead just repost their deleted comments as answers (which is the context of this post; other readers, could you tell?) is to post an entirely new Meta question countering your viewpoint on that one issue instead of keeping the discussion in a single place? — Mark Amery 55 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by George Stocker
instead of a locally useful comment that will undoubtedly be resasked in a comment by others, why not a question where we can give reasons one time and link back to it other times. It also has the benefit of being really public so people outside of that direct conversation may give input, links to where this has been discussed, vote up and vote down and it can be found for all time. Comments optimize for the few over the many. We want to optimize for the many. — George Stocker ♦ 13 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Lundin
Eh, mostly you'd get a gold discussion badge for writing things that happened to be aligned with the general user opinion regarding some hot potato topics. Not sure if that qualifies one to moderate anything. 25 users are too few to pick from and diamond mods are already by default chat room mods. What you would need more than anything is someone who got the time to very active in a chat room all day. — Lundin 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Andras Deak
Well George thinks otherwise so it's decided. — Andras Deak 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Mark Amery
@GeorgeStocker I think the exact opposite of what you've just asserted is true. A critique is more visible to "the many" if it appears directly underneath the thing being critiqued, rather than the critiques being on entirely different pages that you just have to hope you'll miraculously stumble across. (And ordinary readers will be poorly served if they stumble across the critique, too, since it's only interesting in the context of the original debate.) You shouldn't have to hope to luckily stumble across posts in the right order in order to see a coherent discussion. — Mark Amery 1 min ago
 
11:09 AM
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by nick zoum
Same thing is happening to me, it looks like setting the width property of the .badge1, .badge2, .badge3 selector to 7 (up from 6) fixes the bug. — nick zoum 1 min ago
 
11:35 AM
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by George Stocker
@MichaelBerry this is probably more accurate than you think. If there was a set of rules a computer could interpret then this problem would be long solved. There isn’t. It takes into account the usefulness of the comments to those outside the discussion, who is involved, how many comments there are, whether there are non constructive parts of the discussion that shouldn’t stay in print, the mod’s at that moment workload, and what the recent atmosphere is like on meta, and more. In short, we more on judgment than written rules, as we see their exceptions daily. — George Stocker ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Michael Berry
@GeorgeStocker I wasn't actually joking - experience has taught me that's almost certainly true! But as you say, it's a difficult thing to judge and measure objectively, and different mods would likely handle different situations differently. — Michael Berry 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Gimby
Engineers tend to dwell too much on what can be done and don't ask often enough what should be done. It's a far less broad question to ask. I mean what can you do? Yeah you can create a new comment complaining about the deletion of the previous comment. Go to twitter and voice a complaint there. Create a joke post on Reddit's r/ProgrammerHumor or complain on r/stackoverflow, you can create an angry meta post. Ping several mods. You can create a blog page calling Stack Overflow toxic. Those are all things you can do and none of them are things you should do. — Gimby 1 min ago
 
12:13 PM
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by l4mpi
@MarkAmery if you remember how all this change came about (SE employees having PTSD about meta critique), reducing visibility seems to be the goal here. And where have we heard that "optimize for the many" crap before? Not that I buy the argument for a second that any of Georges proposed changes are an optimization for anything or anyone... — l4mpi 1 min ago
 
12:29 PM
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Andras Deak
@l4mpi I don't remember anybody saying anything about PTSD. With all the baggage sorrounding the mental state of SO employees I'd rather we didn't propagate further fodder for rumour and arguments by paraphrasing. The exact wording was "panic attacks". — Andras Deak 2 mins ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by l4mpi
The number one BS reasoning in this post is that comments are deleted because you consider them to be a valid, useful viewpoint. Namely, "it should have been an answer instead" - well it isn't, and deleting it isn't going to make the situation better! Instead of having a somewhat useful post in a not-so-useful place, you completely eradicate all traces of that post for non-mods. I don't know what kind of mental gymnastics one has to perform in order to posit that as an improvement, but whoever came up with it would surely have a great career in politics. — l4mpi 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by l4mpi
@AndrasDeak ok, panic attacks then. Doesn't change that it was a bad reason for removing HMQ and is a worse reason for starting a comment purge. — l4mpi 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by rene
Please share a link to the actual post — rene 57 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by double-beep
@rene this is the question, find the suggested edits, since I can't see deleted posts. — double-beep 39 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Heretic Monkey
Assuming bad faith on the part of reviewers is probably a bad ploy to get a rejected review reconsidered. — Heretic Monkey 13 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Samuel Liew
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Heretic Monkey
Transcribing someone else's code from an image, while certainly a generous gesture, is a risky proposition. It is easy to mistype. The OP has the code; why not let them simply copy and paste the code from the original? — Heretic Monkey 52 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by rene
Well, as the whole post is deleted, there is not much use in discussing the rejected review. This kind of rigorous editing always runs the risk that the reviewers mistake it for an audit. Maybe an even more extended comment could have turned the tables but I think the cases where you end up transcribing an image of code is better left to the OP. — rene 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by SPArchaeologist
@MarkAmery should be fixed now, switched to italics. Please refer to the last paragraph after the picture for further details — SPArchaeologist 11 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by tweray
The question should be closed as off topic as "Questions seeking debugging help". Despite the kindness and patience you paid to transcribing the image into code snippet, it's still unsalvageable and should be closed. — tweray 44 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Andras Deak
@l4mpi the typical interpretation is not "remove hot meta -> reduce stress", it's "remove hot meta -> atrophy meta -> reduce stress". And the comment purge is another step of an abstraction away, "they want to atrophy meta -> we want to keep meta relevant -> I'm George" — Andras Deak 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by George Stocker
@MarkAmery I updated the post to include the full quote of what I said. That last sentence is especially relevant to your action to post it as an answer. — George Stocker ♦ 19 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Rob
@Pshemo Yes, here. "As a moderator, your actions now represent the community" — Rob ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Marco13
Now that this answer has 36 upvotes, I'm tempted to edit it, to say: "I think this is a great idea!". For technical answers, the community wiki concept may be more applicable, because there's rarely a dispute (and completely messing around with the answer would be recognized as "vandalism" and prevented). When the answer is part of an opinionated discussion, with many individual statements that some people might disagree with (or by which they claim to "feel offended", let's face it...), the chance of completely distorting the sentiment of an initial answer via several edits is much higher. — Marco13 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by l4mpi
@GeorgeStocker you deleted one of your comments here again, after your argument in it was deconstructed by Mark. I think that's an extremely dishonest way of participating in a discussion, especially because throughout this whole debate I did not ever see you acknowledge that anybody made a valid point against your views. You simply retreat from that specific discussion by deleting your posts and then start again somewhere else with the same old arguments. At this point I'm pretty much convinced that it doesn't even matter what we say. — l4mpi 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Paul White
@l4mpi The "These guidelines are for main Q&A sites (not meta sites)." in the question was added via an edit by another user, not Shog. — Paul White 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Marco13
To make this clear: The cocept could certainly make sense for the technical questions on meta. But it will be hard to draw the line. — Marco13 2 mins ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Mark Amery
@GeorgeStocker Am I to infer from that edit that you think this entire point is so unimportant as to not be worth discussing? — Mark Amery 58 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Brhaka
Thanks for that tricks guys! I used searchOnStackOverflow() and searchOnGoogle() just for fun, but good to know that they can really work. :) — Brhaka 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by l4mpi
@PaulWhite and that has been there since 2014 without being challenged, so Shog would have more than enough time to change it back if he thought this to be wrong. But none of that changes the fact that comments on meta should be treated different than main, because this is a place for discussion and not for Q&A. — l4mpi 54 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by George Stocker
@Magisch Yes, it very much depends on whether they were folded in because there were too many comments on the post. IMHO, betting on google indexing it is at best folly. — George Stocker ♦ 34 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Heretic Monkey
"go ham"? Am I the only person who had to look that up? :) — Heretic Monkey 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Magisch
re: latest edit. Comments are indexable by google, although not as much as answers. — Magisch 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Paul White
@l4mpi Indeed. I just felt it was worth pointing out the edit. Clearly Shog feels it is a relevant link in any case. — Paul White 2 mins ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by George Stocker
@MarkAmery If you'd like to have this discussion, feel free to post a meta question about the issue and I'd be happy to explain it. Doing so in a comment where it's only locally significant and only findable by people who happen to stumble across this answer and read all of its associated comments is not a productive return on the time spent explaining it. — George Stocker ♦ 2 mins ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by George Stocker
Shog also clarified that the edit was added by someone else in this chat room: — George Stocker ♦ 25 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by George Stocker
@l4mpi I've always said comments are ephemeral post-it notes. If you want to talk about a topic and make your viewpoint last, post a question about the view point, send me a link to it, and I'll be happy to answer. Responding to the same three or four people in comments is not a productive return on my time; especially when I've already been: 1) quoted without context, 2) been told by you that you don't believe the words coming out of my mouth. What is the benefit of responding when that's the tack the same three or four people are taking? — George Stocker ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by TylerH
@HereticMonkey It is colloquial for sure; I am familiar with the term in the US as a millennial, at least. — TylerH 26 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by George Stocker
@Magisch not at all. Thanks for the edit. — George Stocker ♦ 31 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Magisch
@GeorgeStocker I hope you don't mind that i've included this in the answer (in addition to fixing the nonworking listbreak) — Magisch 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Houseman
@GeorgeStocker Why not take your own advice? If you'd like to reply to this answer, please ask a new Meta question. — Houseman 2 mins ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Heretic Monkey
@TylerH That must be it. I'm a grey beard :). — Heretic Monkey 9 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by TylerH
This sounds exactly like what Community Wiki posts already are, except with more noise/fluff/scrolling required. — TylerH 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by TylerH
@HereticMonkey Technically it's an acronym (NSFW) but overwhelmingly I don't believe most people I've heard use the phrase are aware of the acronym. — TylerH 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by l4mpi
@GeorgeStocker I can't post a question about your comment because you deleted it. Regarding the "happy to answer" part, I asked you to write an answer a week ago, maybe start there. To the best of my knowledge I've also not quoted you out of context. And I'm not fond of starting a meta-discussion about the worth of your time (we covered that topic before) - you seem to have a lot of time for pushing your views but not for acknowledging valid arguments against your points. Feel free to point me to counterexamples. — l4mpi 29 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by TylerH
@BSMP That's conflating two issues IMO -- mods have stepped up deleting comments on Meta (even though maybe not fully to the extent proposed by some). What they're definitely not doing though is going around mod-redacting content in questions and answers, which is where Makoto needs to include more information, obviously. — TylerH 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by l4mpi
@GeorgeStocker Oh, and the comment I just replied to is already gone. Nice. How's that for a waste of everybodys time? — l4mpi 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by TylerH
I hope your SharePoint work doesn't require any 2010 support still like I have at work... some things just refuse to die... — TylerH 1 min ago
 
2:23 PM
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Yvette Colomb
@Gimby omg you're not going to believe this - I just said in our mod chatroom I have a savage headache. — Yvette Colomb ♦ 59 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Gimby
Woof. A generic meta chat room. People are going to be butting heads so often we might as well call it "your daily headache" :) — Gimby 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Yvette Colomb
rene would you accept being made RO of this chatroom while we sort these issues out? — Yvette Colomb ♦ 6 secs ago
 
2:37 PM
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by George Stocker
There are a few people who love to debate in the comments and after repeatedly trying to engage with them I've come to realize they love the fight more than the goal, and as such am stepping away from interacting with these individuals in comments. I've repeatedly said how to get the interaction they desire (by posting a meta question on the topic they wish to get viewpoints on), and they elect not to do it. 🤷‍♂️ — George Stocker ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Lightness Races in Orbit
"Sometimes users comment useful things instead of fleshing them out into a full answer, whether it's due to lack of time, or not having enough references on hand, or a number of other reasons" Those users should just come back when they do have time, or after they have done their research. — Lightness Races in Orbit 6 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by rene
@YvetteColomb No, I rather stay out of this Meta sizzle. Better recruit outside of the usual suspects to prevent being accused of favoritism. — rene 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Tim Post
@l4mpi If staff says it's related, you're not gonna win an argument to the contrary. Shog's answer (which is what he linked) applies equally. — Tim Post ♦ 32 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by rene
I'm sure there must be a reasonable RO among that 0,015% that visits from main? — rene 57 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Ethan Field
@GeorgeStocker I've seen nothing but people trying to actually interact with you in a genuine and meaningful way and would challenge you to find a single comment from someone who is only arguing for argument's sake and isn't being constructive. The other thing I've seen is that you seem to be deleting your own comments and moving on instead of actually standing and conversing with someone. At this point, it feels like your total disregard for taking part in honest, open discussions with members of a community that elected you is something we should open a question about, simply to tie you down — Ethan Field 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Mark Amery
@GeorgeStocker For what it's worth, I have every intention of posting a Meta question - when I have the time to do so. I have a job, and cannot drop everything else I am doing at your every whim to immediately obey your arbitrary and unexplained instructions. Also, you have told me to do that exactly once here, not "repeatedly", unless you count the cryptic mockery of me in your first comment here. I resent the false claims and accusation of bad faith. — Mark Amery 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Yvette Colomb
but we're all the usual suspects :) — Yvette Colomb ♦ 2 mins ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by George Stocker
@EthanField What better way to tie someone down to their position then ask a question on a topic where their answer appears on the front page of meta, in their profile, appears in Google in a search, and can be voted up and down by the community? If your goal is to 'tie someone down' to their position; answers win hands down on comments which are barely findable unless you'd love scrolling through (checks my user profile) 44 pages of my comments. — George Stocker ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Yvette Colomb
@EthanField I've seen plenty of personal attacks leveled at George. Honestly if this discussion keeps being derailed to be about George I will be shutting it down. It has nothing to do with the question! — Yvette Colomb ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Ethan Field
@GeorgeStocker So, to clarify, you flatly refuse to engage in a discussion about your seemingly sporadic deletion of comments unless posted as a new Meta question? — Ethan Field 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by jpmc26
"...people will without doubt just give up and leave." I'm not convinced that staff considers this bad. — jpmc26 1 min ago
 
3:03 PM
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by TylerH
"Really good jokes, e.g.: “28.7 kiloGhandis.”" This bullet point seems misplaced. It's currently under the "single comments with high value" section, but joke comments are of no value and should definitely be deleted. — TylerH 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Luis Rico
We can either agree with that vision and work towards it, or disagree and stop participating.. Why do companies do this so constantly, you are not giving any other choice but to leave, and losing the experienced users is worse than gaining new ones — Luis Rico 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by George Stocker
@LuisRico "Voting with one's feet" is how to effect change in a business. It sucks, but it's true. I'm not saying you should or shouldn't do that; but I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that that's how you make the most change in a business. — George Stocker ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Andrew T.
@TylerH this was posted mostly verbatim from Academia Meta, and it might show their community's view instead of ours (and how different SE sites have a different level of strictness)... — Andrew T. 42 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Robert Longson
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by George Stocker
It's also important to note that nothing may come of this; they may do their investigation and find out nothing untoward is going on. — George Stocker ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Shog9
If your goal is a conversation then chat supports a few things - replies, multi-pings, real-time updates - that comments do not, @l4mpi. If your goal is a public artifact, answers provide the space, formatting and history to effectively address an idea in a comprehensive manner without the cruft of a lengthy back-and-forth exchange. Comments are the tool that does multiple things badly here: if you know what you need, choose the tool that does it best. — Shog9 ♦ 2 mins ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Robert Harvey
@AndrewT. It's fairly representative of how Move to Chat works across the network. — Robert Harvey ♦ 21 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by weegee
What's best in this scenario is to regain back that same reputation as soon as you've been serial downvoted. By this, you will contribute more to the site and show the people who've downvoted that this doesn't affect you and that -6 was done for nothing — weegee 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Patel Romil
@weegee, Yes I will contribute, but some action should be taken against them who are doing this kind of thing for revenge — Patel Romil 1 min ago
 
3:39 PM
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Gabe Sechan
The power users make up a small fraction of the community, but a large fraction of the value. The people who answer a ton of questions are why this site is useful. Alienate them (and you absolutely are), and when they leave this site will diminish and eventually die. The fact is that the people capable and willing to provide good answers here is a limited pool, once they're gone they will not be replaced. — Gabe Sechan 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Patel Romil
Moderator may need to have the rights to handle such kind of things. May I ask why even moderators do not have the rights to handle serial downvoting. Or do we need to improve our script which should be able to detect a downvoting pattern and roll back it — Patel Romil 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by weegee
@PatelRomil votes are by definition anonymous. So the users nor the mods can see who upvoted or downvoted. But the CM's can see who voted — weegee 32 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Madara Uchiha
@PatelRomil Vote reversal is a sensitive topic, we take votes and their anonymity seriously. Even moderators cannot see who votes for what, and that is by design. For this reason, an employee with stronger privileges needs to look at it. If you have more questions (or a suggestion to change this), I propose you post it in a new post here on meta. (I will say that I don't think that's a good use of your time, it's not likely to change anytime soon) — Madara Uchiha ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Lightness Races in Orbit
"The community is the people who use and curate the site" and produce literally all of the content for free. Don't forget that! — Lightness Races in Orbit 2 mins ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Braiam
@rene at this point I expect that reviewers know that audits don't add entire swats of text. — Braiam 16 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by rene
@Braiam well ... you flag the review then? — rene 10 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Robert Longson
@PatelRomil since your question has an answer you should avoid changing it such that the answer is no longer valid. Feel free to ask other separate questions to elicit other answers. — Robert Longson 28 secs ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Yvette Colomb
@rene yeh - I think it's that -.00015 that is the usual suspects :p — Yvette Colomb ♦ 1 min ago
[ Boson | Higgs ] New comment posted by Erik A
Any specific time indication? I've got a helpful flag on suspicious voting behaviour from the 21st of july and the voting is still occurring today, it's one devoted individual. The usual 6-8? — Erik A 1 min ago
 

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