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6:00 PM
instead of trying to juggle both
 
@Leigh not even python is that strict...
 
python, why yes yes you do have to intdent
 
@Leigh Yes, a very important aspect is storing everything as UTF-8 internally
 
So, why not have two string types. a string, and a blob...
 
@ircmaxell so string is utf8, whats blob? :)
 
6:13 PM
I am not sure exactly why, but I remember that once a wise man told me that Blobs cause security issues if the garbage collection and memory management is not good enough.
 
Ok, something completely different... do you think there would be (could be?) any significant benefit for the VM to operate with two threads, one calling the opcode handlers, and one resolving/pre-fetching the next opcode handler?
 
@Event_Horizon variable++ actually comes from assembler. Many processor architectures can retrieve a value and increment it without using any more cycles.
 
@LeviMorrison Ah good to know.
 
@LeviMorrison instruction is INC funnily enough (on x86 - sure you already know that though)
 
evening people
 
6:22 PM
friday evening
 
@Leigh raw binary data
 
@Leigh haha
you're funny
 
@NikiC how mean
 
@Leigh Isn't being funny a good thing?
 
@ircmaxell right, I know thats traditionally what blobs are for, just when you said "string" it threw me
@NikiC depends if you're making people actually laugh, or you're being mocked ;)
But seriously, I don't know how the opcode handling pipeline works, is that a ridiculous suggestion? is there simply no need for it? or is it impossible due to branching?
 
6:31 PM
I think what could help the opcodes i JITting the handler calls ;)
And implementing the JMP instructions as real assembly-level jumps
 
i'll let you tell rasmus that APC needs to deal with that..
although I guess APC would probably be built from the ground up anyway, or integrated into core
 
I think a lot could be built from group up in PHP (like rewrite in C++ :D)
 
@Leigh how current strings worth
@NikiC sigh
 
But there is that large tendency of major rewrites to fail miserably ^^
@ircmaxell You don't like C++, do you? ^^
 
not in the least
 
6:34 PM
And you honestly prefer C?
I just can't imagine that
The thought does not want to go in my mind
 
What are you going to gain from C++, apart from pretty syntax
 
It seems so utterly absurd
 
@Leigh I think you are underestimating pretty syntax. . .
 
@Leigh A lot nicer code, at least.
 
If I wanted pretty syntax, I'd use Delphi :D
 
6:36 PM
Keep in mind all programming languages are just pretty syntax . . .
 
Ok, I guess another way of saying it would be, what can't you write with standard C
 
@Leigh What can't I write with assembler?
C is just a pretty syntax for assembler.
 
@Leigh You're asking the wrong question
 
C++ is just a pretty syntax for C.
 
@LeviMorrison which brings us back to, what do you get apart from pretty syntax
 
6:38 PM
As developers I think we'd like to pretend otherwise because we're so involved with languges.
 
@Leigh Object orientation and templating?
STL datastructures?
 
@NikiC you can do object orientation in C :)
@NikiC oh god stl... disgusting
 
@Leigh Yeah, and it's really awesome to use
@Leigh Be careful, if you continue down that path we'll have to send you to the C++ chatroom for reeducation!
 
@NikiC Bastardized OO, and bastardized templating
 
And you know how the C++ chatroom is like :P
 
6:40 PM
@NikiC yea they're like... welcome to c++, we're glad you moved away from PHP
 
@ircmaxell aha
@Leigh Rather: You PHP suckor get out of here you wouldn't get C++ anyways!
Or something like that ^^
 
@NikiC I don't get VC++, such a gay whiney compiler, wont let me ignore typing
 
@Leigh Well, C++ is strictly typed. Nothing the compiler can do against ^^
Though you could obviously create some kind of Value class that would behave just like a PHP variable ^^
 
Oh, VC++ goes beyond strict, pascal is strictly typed and I can still turn typed pointers into untyped pointers with a typecast
 
@Leigh You can do typecasts in C++ to
 
6:42 PM
last time I wanted to juggle pointer types in C++, i write inline assembler
vc++ wouldn't let me cast what i wanted to
and I cant remember what it was
 
@Leigh If you really want to cast something a reinterpret_cast will always work
But there are also safer casts ;)
reinterpret_cast is basically the C++ equivalent of the C cast
because it just reinterprets the value completely, without doing any typechecks
 
like I said, I can't remember what it was, I was doing something magical with CreateThread and the ThreadProc inside an object, without needing a wrapper function
Anyway, backtracking a little @NikiC, why is the opcode handler prefetch such a "funny" idea?
 
@NikiC what should I enter as log message for doc commits?
 
@NikiC Not really.
 
Are you guys seriously talking about C++?
 
6:48 PM
@PeeHaa Something ^^ phpdoc isn't particularly picky about the commit msgs
 
the problem with the C cast is that it is any of the C++ casts and some other kind of cast too.
reinterpret_cast is just one subset of the casts the C cast can be.
 
@NikiC :-) good thing :P
 
@DeadMG Yeah. One thing that always annoyed me about it is that you can't do something like reinterpret_cast<uint_64>(someDouble) but have to do *reinterpret_cast<uint_64 *>(&someDouble) instead.
 
What's going on in here.
 
@EtiennedeMartel don't scare them off.. let's just sit here and wait for the madness
 
6:50 PM
0
Q: twitter bootstrap thumbnails not aligning properly anywhere but Chrome + Windows

rlemonOk so I'm prototyping a site for work and I have run into a small snag using the thumbnails as part of Twitter Bootstrap http://rlemon.github.com/dryermaster.com-prototype/links.html here is a link to the page in question. My issue is very easy to see and is applicable in every browser I've t...

^ haz nothing to do with php but I neeeds help :P
 
Though I guess that you would like to kill me for just thinking about doing such a thing @DeadMG :)
 
Xeo
@NikiC reinterpret_cast<uint64_t&>(someDouble);
 
@NikiC why is that annoying?
 
@Xeo That works?
 
Xeo
It's the same as what you wrote, the compiler transforms it basically
with built-in meaning of & and *
 
6:51 PM
@Xeo Thanks, didn't know that
 
Guys. C++ sucks. I've been doing PHP for years and clearly it's a well better language for pretty much everything. Please leave our room.
 
@Cicada Your disguise sucks.
 
...
 
We have an invasion right here...
How did you people figure out we're talking about C++?
 
Of course!
 
Xeo
6:52 PM
@NikiC We have our contacts :P
 
OOP support is much better in PHP than in C++
 
It's like, we mention C++ and you guys turn up right away ^^
 
@Xeo and you think that's clean and readable?
 
You can't go and bash C++ without us joining on the fun.
2
 
I think they infiltrated us ;) Trust no one!
 
6:52 PM
@Xeo Spies!
 
@NikiC Some dude came into the Lounge and told us yall were being totally misinformed and generally idiotic about C++
 
@EtiennedeMartel my disguise rocks, right?
 
Xeo
@ircmaxell Yes.
 
C++ sucks in many ways, but I like to be accurate about which ways those are
 
lol
 
6:53 PM
It sucks so much it wraps around and becomes acceptable.
 
17 mins ago, by Leigh
What are you going to gain from C++, apart from pretty syntax
 
I think I can speak for everyone in this room when I say that PHP is much clearer and faster than C++.
 
@DeadMG Sounds like we are not that different
 
@Xeo I guess we have different definitions of readable
 
C++ has many things, but "pretty syntax" isn't exactly one of 'em
 
6:53 PM
@NikiC I saw it and mentioned it in the Lounge<C++> room.
 
@refp to which the response was... STL... I rest my case
 
Xeo
@ircmaxell Sure, what's your definition?
 
@PeeHaa The problem with that, as far as I can tell, is that PHP sucks in every way, so it's difficult to suggest that someone is being inaccurate when they say "PHP sucks in X way."
 
@Cicada Yeah, as long as you purchase one of Zend's optimizers.
 
@EtiennedeMartel I'll tell you next time ;)
 
6:54 PM
PHP: Slow until you pay for it!
 
@Leigh The STL is miles ahead of what you can get in PHP.
 
I find the syntax of C++ to be quite pretty to be honest, but that doesn't seem to be the general opinion
 
@DeadMG SL. Shhhh.
 
I'll stick with PHP.
 
@DeadMG was that dude @refp? I remember him being in this room earlier today
 
6:54 PM
@refp The main problem with the syntax is that it's so context-sensitive. Makes it very hard to write tools and such, and it can be hard to decide what's going on without knowing the things involved.
 
@Cicada No, you'll stick to C#, you big liar.
 
@DeadMG Neh. The biggest problem is people who abuse it
 
@DeadMG Absolutely. The SPL (Standard PHP Library) is absolutely awful.
 
Xeo
in Lounge<C++>, 7 mins ago, by Jim Norton
Just seen in the PHP room: "C++ is just a pretty syntax for C."
 
@DeadMG preciously, which also makes it beautiful.. double meanings are like poetry
 
6:55 PM
@PeeHaa It's difficult to not abuse a language when it has no positive uses. Therefore, every use is an abuse by default.
 
@DeadMG we're not comparing the two, so be quiet, the discussion was about rewriting PHP in C++, and the STL would not be exposed, so its a moot point
 
@Xeo in this case, the usage of both <> and <> as well as & in the line makes it difficult to read. I understand the semantic information provided, but at a quick glance, you need to distinguish different, but similar meaning characters which change the total meaning of the line...
 
@Xeo Yep, that's what started this so called "invasion".
 
I've never seen this room so busy before. We should bring up C and C++ more often.
 
@NikiC whatcha' talkin' 'bout willis?
 
Xeo
6:55 PM
@ircmaxell wat.
 
@DeadMG Sounds like someone unin formed
and yes my typing sucks
 
@LeviMorrison Yeah, we really need to get more people in here
 
@ircmaxell If you got even a little experience with C++ templates, this line becomes quite readable.
 
@PeeHaa Feel free to correct me. I have no problem with entering a reasonable debate.
 
Kick these C++ guys invading our room.
 
6:56 PM
It's a shame that C++ has more people than we do
 
lol Cicada :P
 
@EtiennedeMartel I didn't say understandable, I said readable. And they are two very different concepts
There's a reason APL isn't a hugely popular language.
 
@ircmaxell I said readable.
 
Xeo
@ircmaxell He said "readable", and it is very readable and especially the meaning is simply clear
 
Xeo
6:57 PM
second that
 
@Cicada Lol haha
 
I'm taking this to meta right now.
 
@DeadMG I find it hard to debate anything with people who say: "It's difficult to not abuse a language when it has no positive uses." Would only be a biased "debate". And will only result in kittens being hurt :-)
 
@Cicada No, this is a civil disucssion
@Cicada please don't...
 
@Cicada SU
 
6:58 PM
@ircmaxell (She's a Lounge<C++> regular, so it's standard-issue trolling if you ask me)
 
@ircmaxell You were fooled ^^
 
@PeeHaa Eh. I merely say that because nobody has ever presented a use case for PHP. I don't preclude one from existence.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Merci de me dénoncer salaud de québecois
 
Xeo
And a troll in there, too
 
lol
 
6:58 PM
@Cicada Mange mon pain.
 
I'm guessing @NikiC has me on ignore since he/she was one who got really offended when I invaded the PHP tag earlier today
 
@refp Huh?
 
I was?
Btw, he ;)
 
it's like God- technically, it could exist, but since there's no evidence in favour and it would be a giant "fuck you" to all of logic, the logical position is to begin from the point that it does not exist.
 
6:59 PM
@refp I already forgot what exactly the discussion was about to be honest
 
@NikiC nothing, I'm just trollin' to get your attention.. (to see if you had me on ignore or not)
 
What? Please, God does exist. They found God's Particle, what more evidence do you need?
 
@DeadMG Why would there be no use case for php? The web likes to think otherwise
 
@Cicada I have a counter-proof
 
onlycalledthatbecausepaperswouldn'tletthemprintgoddamnedsayswhat?
 
7:00 PM
Anybody have popcorn?
 
If God existed, then PHP would not exist. But PHP does exist, consequently God cannot exist. qed
 
@PeeHaa Five hundred years ago, people thought that boiling duck's feet could cure cancer and black people were inferior in every respect and all sorts of other crap.
 
I bet you can't say anything against that proof!
 
@DeadMG And? Still today.
 
7:01 PM
Shall we all settle this after school behind the gymnasium?
 
"XYZ thinks otherwise" is an appeal to authority fallacy, where the "authority" is "XYZ", in this case, "Some poorly defined (at best) group of other people with questionable skill or knowledge about the subject at hand where reasonable measurement is impossible"
 
@DeadMG @NikiC Ahhh right. If that's the case. I'm going to switch to c++ because the earth isn't flat anymore...
2
quadruple mega supr ultra ping sry
 
@PeeHaa I don't get it.
 
@PeeHaa Let's see how many times I can ping you with one message! 24
 
Strong argument +1 I totally back that.
 
7:04 PM
@NikiC: see what you did here?
 
this room:
 
@ircmaxell You mean by mentioning C++ in here?
 
@Cicada In the gym I go everyone is looking for some Higgs boson, they hear it adds mass.
 
@PeeHaa Pi is not 3.141592653589793238462643383279502884197169399375105820974944592307816406286208‌​9986280348253421170679... either...
 
Pi = sqrt(10)
Because Pi² = 10
That's more or less 3.14 I think.
 
7:05 PM
@PeeHaa 24 pings :)
 
@NikiC :P
 
Well, no, it's because we live in a non-euclidean geometry. Pi is only exact in a perfect euclidean environment...
 
brb. Gonna grab me some whiskey. I think both the c++ and the php side can agree on that
 
No. It's exact in any base where the unit is a multiple of Pi.
 
Such drouthers
 
7:08 PM
@Cicada well, if pi is variable, then the base would be variable as well
 
Pi is constant and was defined by God long time ago.
 
@Cicada God is an idiot
 
@Cicada wrong
 
@PeeHaa The Bible doesn't say so, so you must be wrong.
 
alright, easy now
 
7:09 PM
@Cicada No it isn't.
 
@Cicada Where does it say that in the bible?
 
9.8696 (....)
 
@PeeHaa I think it's around chapter 17 when Harry grabs Snape or something.
4
 
:-)
 
@DeadMG Ofc it is.
 
7:10 PM
lol
 
ROTFL
 
I thought this php.net/manual/en/index.php was the Bible, wtf guys
 
Anyways
Getting back to C++
I really can't see why you would prefer writing C
I fully agree that C++ has (lots pf) flaws, but still it is much more awesome to use than plain C
 
C is awesome.
C is just more awesomer than C++. By far. And I mean it.
 
7:15 PM
@Cicada did god say so in the bible?
 
I LOVE C - been writing it for over 30 years.
 
C is C++ but with no features.
 
@Leigh Let me CTRL+F through it.
 
But I can see how other languages can be better
 
@JimNorton Wait, is that sarcasm too or is that serious?
I'm starting to get confused :D
 
7:17 PM
u confus?
 
@DeadMG Honest question here: do you need any of those features?
 
uh, yes.
 
Why not use PHP then?
 
does anyone need to not write the same resource and error handling code 9999999 times, bloating their codebase and guaranteeing endless mistakes? yes.
 
PHP is C++ but good.
 
7:18 PM
@NikiC Serious
 
does anyone need to not have to endlessly deal with misplaced NULL terminators? yes.
 
@Cicada @ci :D
 
does anyone need to have generic data structures and algorithms? yes.
 
@NikiC I've been doing embedded development in C for a long time now.
 
Gay C is better.
 
7:19 PM
Lol
 
@PeeHaa
 
@webarto Excellent show
 
@ircmaxell You could say the same thing at any level of abstraction
 
I came back and thought I was in the C++ room.
 
@Bracketworks essentially, you are
 
7:20 PM
@JimNorton I use C++ for almost all my embedded stuff now, the tools are there.
 
Yeah we're fighting an invasion right now.
 
@JimNorton I worked in the office under the one that took place... Literally, one floor below, same building
 
@ircmaxell Sweet!
 
@Cicada lol wut? You invaded; you're fighting off the natives? :P
 
@Collin That is true..... We also do C++ on some of our embedded devices.
 
7:21 PM
@Bracketworks No, we are fighting off the natives
 
I'm a proud PHP user, not one of these C++ pedants.
 
@Cicada Wave that flag.
 
@webarto :-)
 
/me looks at the room name again
 
@JimNorton Heck, we're running Linux on as many as we can now
 
7:22 PM
I'll be back when the room has settled into familiarity.
 
You know, I'm half tempted to ping Tim Post just so that he can come in and get a laugh out of this (he'd appreciate it)
 
@ircmaxell Do it ^^
 
I'm pretty sure he would like it :)
 
Okay, I have a plan
A devilish plan
Next time the C++ folks start bashing PHP...
 
a wonderfully marvelous devilish plan?
 
7:24 PM
...we come into their room and bash it too!
That would be fun, right?
 
lol
 
@ircmaxell I posted on meta. Ban requested.
 
We should just merge the two rooms. Apocalypse! Run for your lives!!11!
 
huh?
 
@PeeHaa YES
 
7:25 PM
@Collin Yep... embedded often doesn't mean what it used to just 5 years ago.
 
@PeeHaa Now that is going on meta! merge request
 
@PeeHaa +1
 
@Cicada You have my upvote
 
PHP++?
 
Did anyone notice that the C++ guys are constantly talking about porn?
I wonder where the correlation comes from ^^
 
7:28 PM
+1 true
 
you haven't even shown there is a correlation
 
in Lounge<C++>, 4 hours ago, by FredOverflow
@RMartinhoFernandes BREAKING NEWS: Language wars finally over. Preliminary result: every major programming language sucks.
2
 
@NikiC We have to talk about porn to help us forget about PHP
 
@JimNorton And yet you are here in php chat. Well done sire ;)
 
@PeeHaa Why thank you.
I'm just here for the show.
 
7:34 PM
you can't write porn downloader in C++ like you can in PHP (or at least moment passes while you do)
 
App.Download(porn);
Done
 
that's c# :P
 
It can also be C++ :0
 
@JimNorton just ad to your C few ++
 
<?php
$html = file_get_contents('http://www.redtube.com/98250');
preg_match('#mp4_url=([^&]+)#is', $html, $matches);
$url = urldecode($matches[1]);
preg_match('#([0-9]+)\.mp4#is', $url, $matches);
file_put_contents($matches[0], file_get_contents($url));
I dare you, I double dare you
 
7:41 PM
@Constantine Yeah, that's all i need to do
 
@webarto All I need is: M in my custom language. It just knows what I want it to do. It's Magic...
 
@ircmaxell Do you have some URL that continuosly streams some (remotely useful and not to complicated) XML?
Or anyone else for that matter
 
no
 
Basically as an example of what xml_parser is good for
 
@ircmaxell :)
 
If you want more, go to stackoverflow.com/review-beta
 
jsj
Anyone have a clue why my shutdown function isn't getting invoked here:

<?php
set_error_handler(function(){throw new Exception();});
register_shutdown_function(function(){echo "invoked\n";});
require 'nonexistent_file';
 
@refp You're an idiot:
 
jsj
"invoked" is never printed to the screen
 
8:07 PM
in Lounge<C++>, 1 hour ago, by refp
did you know that PHPers frequently use the tag in their chat when linking questions they'd like to close.. and the most frequent reason for closing a question: "RTFM"
 
8:19 PM
 
Friday night... and I'm spending it looking at the source of the HTTP request object of various frameworks.
I need to get a life :(
 
user895378
@GordonM Eh, the older I get the less I care about what I'm expected to enjoy doing and the more I just do what I enjoy. Sometimes that means spending my entire weekend glued to the computer and not doing stupid drunk things with stupid drunk girls.
 
@rdlowrey Hear, hear!
 
@rdlowrey Did some updates on the answer to that question BTW, for what it's worth
 
8:33 PM
huh
 
stackoverflow.com/questions/11477902/… Any help on this would be most appreciated!
 
user895378
Well it's interesting because it really has nothing to do with the Not Acceptable header ...
 
user895378
It's the client submitting a request in an encoded format not supported by the server.
 
user895378
Not Acceptable applies when, after a content-negotiation handshake, the server determines that it can't supply content in a way that satisfies requirements specified by the client.
 
I'm starting to wonder if there is a suitable code at all then!
 
user895378
8:35 PM
Yeah, I kinda got stuck in a circular logic loop after awhile. It's such a small edge case.
 
user895378
It's not something you encounter with normal browser user agents.
 
whh ... c++ room made me a bit sad
 
user895378
Really it's only a possibility when you're accepting request body data for APIs and the client completely ignores the API documentation saying, THESE ARE THE ENCODING TYPES WE CAN UNDERSTAND
 
they seem way too busy reaffirming how superior they ate
 
@tereško I was there for a while, but it lost its luster ~2hrs ago.
 
8:39 PM
@rdlowrey The spec did mention that sometimes just sending the data anyway is an acceptable response. "I don't care what you want, you'll take what you're given and like it".
@tereško All that eating at expensive restaurants, I guess (unless you meant "are" instead of "ate").
 
user895378
@GordonM No, but that's the point -- there's not a response to send. The client is uploading data to create or modify an existing resource, but the data can't be decoded to determine if it's the correct content-type
 
user895378
And it encodes that uploaded data to save on bandwidth/transfer time
 
@GordonM *are
 
But serious guys, this isn't a debate. It's B right? right?
 
@rdlowrey In that case I wonder if it's acceptable to treat "Don't know the media type" as "Wrong media type".
 
user895378
8:41 PM
@PeeHaa absolutely.
 
@PeeHaa A. Any other way is just mad.
 
user895378
@GordonM Whaaaa????
 
WTF!?
How could one even think about that?
 
@PeeHaa i guess B , but since i broke that thing , i leave the roll on the reservoir
 
B? Heresy!
 
user895378
8:42 PM
B is a bastardization of all things sacred.
 
user895378
There is no debate.
 
Eih... There is no debate. It's been mathematically proven that B is the only correct way, since A can cause serious temporal distortions due to the cling effect...
 
user895378
@GordonM you are hereby excommunicated from the one true faith of sanitary paper dispensation.
 
@rdlowrey JIHAD!
 
user895378
Our holy knights are on the way to reclaim the treasures you've soiled by your presence. Prepare for war!
 
user895378
8:44 PM
^ PHP chat just turned into a game of Civ4
 
there's a whole wiki on it
Toilet paper when used with a toilet roll holder with a horizontal axle parallel to the wall has two possible orientations: the toilet paper may hang over (in front of) or under (behind) the roll. The choice is largely a matter of personal preference, dictated by habit. In surveys of American consumers and of bath and kitchen specialists, 60–70% of respondents prefer over. Despite its being an apparently trivial topic, people often hold strong opinions on the matter. Advice columnist Ann Landers said that the subject was the most controversial issue in her column's history. Defenders of ...
 
There seriously isn't a Wikipedia article on that. Seriously.
?Come on!
 
"60–70% of respondents prefer over"
60-70% of people are wrong then...
@GordonM go check out how long the article is
 
> Despite its being an apparently trivial topic, people often hold strong opinions on the matter. Advice columnist Ann Landers said that the subject was the most controversial issue in her column's history
lol
 
How the hell did that survive not getting purged by the Not Notable police?
compatibility with a recreational vehicle or a cat.
 
8:48 PM
hehe
 
... A cat?
 
@GordonM , by adding a LOT of references
 
@GordonM It is actually one of the more in-depth wikipedia pages I've seen
 
> A Grand Rapids, Michigan, toilet paper enthusiast named Bill Jarrett argues that previous polls have been too small. He wants a national referendum with a least one million votes, with the result to decide a "national toilet paper hanging way" to be enforced by "the toilet paper police".
 
why is it that cola with rum tastes like cola , but pure cola tastes like cola with rum ?
 
8:50 PM
Or, how about the Donald Knuth algorithm that predicts whether a person in a public restroom will use the smaller or larger of two rolls of TP?
 
they could just replace that entire wiki article with this one quote from the bottom
> The 'under' looks cleaner and neater because you don't see it. The 'over' is more convenient.
 
B for life
 

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