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12:00 AM
@MarkGarcia Well, sort of--Novec and Fluorinert are different. Flourinert is basically just an electronics-safe liquid. The big difference with Novec is that it absorbs a lot more heat by boiling, so its latent heat of evaporation gets involved.
 
@JerryCoffin have the steam spin a boiler that feeds back into the power
 
@JerryCoffin A while back, I thought it would be a great idea to design electronics to handle temperatures of 200C. Then do evaporative water cooling on them. When the water runs low, just pour in more. Then when winter came along, I got reminded of the hard water cleaning hell from humidifiers during my previous years in Chicago/Midwest.
 
@Mikhail At around 700C, you get a perpetual motion machine...
 
e=mc^2, why would even need to worry?
 
@Mysticial Yeah--people have done water, but it needs to be distilled, and (since it dissolves so many things) it's hard to keep it clean enough to work well.
 
12:05 AM
@JerryCoffin Current filterless humidifiers are designed well enough that all you need to do is soak the heat tower in vinegar for a few hours. Then most of the hard water either dissolves or flakes off. So you can use a rough sponge to wipe it off.
It's not without work though. But I imagine a computer could be build to have a detachable/replacable evaporative plate on top.
Then use heatpipes to move the heat from all the hardware components to the plate.
Though there's an obvious safety concern here. Since the plate will be the coolest point and will be boiling water, the rest of the computer (including the heat pipes) will be much much hotter.
So even if you design the electronics to operate at those temps, touching them accidentally will be a hazard.
 
Raid cards often go 100c +
 
@Mikhail Side fans work wonders here. Unfortunately it doesn't work that well with tempered glass cases where the side is a window. So you'd need levitate a fan over the PCI slots using cables or PCIe fan mount.
 
So, I contacted support, and they said it was normal...
 
Back in the Core 2 era, FB-DIMM memory was rated up to like 150C+. Though most of them would start throttling above 85C.
I my initial setup, the DIMMs hit 130C without active cooling.
And it took a 3000 RPM 60dB fan suspended 2 inches above the 16 DIMMs to keep them below 85C.
 
would be fun to confirm our notions of airflow circulation with thermal imaging
 
12:13 AM
No doubt about why FB-DIMMs got replaced by registered DIMMs.
 
we need more double pumped prescott cpus
 
@MarkGarcia I suppose I should add one more point though: expecting real use of Fluorinert is probably mostly unrealistic. It's just too damned expensive--hundreds of dollars per gallon, if memory serves.
 
Also needs to be pumped right?
 
std::chrono doesn't in any way relate to consumed cpu time, right?
 
@MarkGarcia Not necessarily, but yes you'd probably want to most of the time anyway.
 
@Mikhail The world needs a lot of things, but more CPUs with 31 stage pipelines probably are not among them.
 
Like the Acer Predator 21
Nvidia® GeForce® GTX 1080 SLI with 16 GB Dedicated Memory
But also $9k
30-day Microsoft Office trial included
 
@Mikhail I saw it earlier in the year when it made headlines. I love the idea though. But the fact that you need to be in a first class seat to open it up and all the power plugs in first class combined to be able to power it is kind of a put off.
I think Clevo sells laptops with desktop chips.
I'm in need of a laptop with AVX512 and I think that might be the only way to do it.
Fuck, doesn't look like they do HEDT chips in laptops. Only normal desktop chips.
 
Try Xeons?
 
@MarkGarcia It's the same socket size.
It's not easy getting such a large socket into a laptop and not melt it.
Even if you downclock it.
 
12:44 AM
I heard that 8th generation of blue consumer CPUs is getting AVX512.
Oh it probably does not.
 
Cannonlake wasn't even on the leaked roadmap today. So ETA >= 2019.
AMD's 7nm Zen is supposed to come out before that.
 
And it'd probably have AVX 512 :/
 
You might as well have a remote VDS.
 
I doubt it. If I had to choose, Zen 2 isn't even going to have native 256-bit vectors.
They'll stick with their current design and focus on destroying Intel on non-SIMD loads.
At some point, AMD might be forced to "support" AVX512 even if it's split up (like it does with AVX right now). But it's probably gonna be a long time (if ever) does AMD start paying attention to AVX512 until the market forces them to. (i.e. everyone uses it)
 
12:51 AM
They'd probably have enough transistor budget by then to implement full speed AVX 256.
 
@MarkGarcia They're more likely to use the transistor budget to cram in more cores.
 
It's more glue for more cores :)
 
But transistor budget isn't the only factor. It's power consumption. The reason why AVX512 clocks down the processor is because you can't have all that silicon running at the same time at full speed. If AMD goes with more cores instead of AVX512, they're gonna hit the same problem.
So they'll need very dynamic clock scaling to make it work. IOW, very low clocks when all cores are active.
 
Why not run AVX512 with own clock though?
Does it need to be synchronous?
 
@EuriPinhollow You can't. It's synchronous with the core clock.
 
12:56 AM
But for full speed 256 which means 2x perf from Zen 1 with, say, 40% more throttling, it's probably worth it.
vOv I'm not really sure how this works
 
When an instruction gets dispatched to that off-chip AVX512 FMA unit, it needs to come back within 6 cycles or the core is gonna panic.
(I'm over simplifying a bit here.)
 
@Mysticial why so?
 
Crossing clock domains is a costly process. Much more than the 6 cycle latency of the off-core FMA unit.
To hand something off to a different clock domain, you need a hand shaking protocol. The sender places it into a buffer and sets a flag saying it's ready. The receiver (who's in a different domain) will check the flag every cycle to see if there's anything to do. Same thing in reverse. The problem here is that you need to safeguards (and delays) to ensure that the shared buffer and flag don't be accessed by both clock domains simultaneously. Otherwise it'll short out.
(disclaimer, my hardware design is a bit rusty. Haven't used much of it in 10 years.)
The overhead of crossing the clock domain is probably going to dwarf the latency of the instruction itself.
 
@Mysticial but rational ratio would be easier, am I right?
 
@EuriPinhollow Yes, but then you lock your synchronization points to the LCM of the clock frequencies.
 
1:03 AM
Does not sound bad. Do Intels throttle like by half?
 
@EuriPinhollow That's too much. If the point of the external AVX512 unit is to double your throughput and you halve its clock speed, you would double the latency and need twice the area to compensate.
If you did 3/2 ratio, you can only send data back and forth every 6 cycles. Which means you can't pipeline since only 1/6 cycles are open to data transfer.
You would need 6x wide bus to cram it all through. And then both sides would need a buffer to "spread it back out" across 6 (or 4) different clock cycles. Already your latency is up to potentially 18 cycles. (6 for the instruction, and 6 for waiting in each direction)
So it's much easier to keep it synchronous and clock the entire core down.
 
@Mysticial how can the latency double with 1/2 multiplier if instruction does not take one cycle? It's not the latency of delivering result back to core which matter after all, it's overall execution time.
 
@EuriPinhollow All modern consumer Intel CPUs already have large async vector units. It's call HD Graphics. :D
 
@EuriPinhollow Yes, but not a whole lot. Even with the same clock speed, crossing between clock domains is non-trivial.
 
@EuriPinhollow Because you clock the entire unit at half speed, the latency (as observed by the fast core) is 2x. If you're willing accept that cost, you still need to maintain the throughput. So you'd have to double up the execution units and double the length of the pipeline.
The other thing is that you can't forget that the AVX512 unit isn't the only thing that's producing heat. The core itself is as well. Given that the AVX512 unit is only half of the AVX512 resources (the other half is in the core itself by combining the two AVX2 units), the core will still draw much more power.
 
1:10 AM
@Mysticial wait what? This is what Intel does - it throttles the core while delivering better AVX-only throughput than non-AVX code does nonetheless.
I just cannot understand how that 1x is somehow magical.
 
@EuriPinhollow You were trying to suggest that running the AVX512 unit at a different speed from the core is a possible alternative. And I'm just giving evidence that it's not feasible.
If you downclock the AVX512 unit, you add domain crossing latencies. And if you do it in a simple 2/1 ratio, you've throttled to the AVX512 so much that it probably isn't worth using it anymore unless you compensate for it by doubling it up again.
Oh, and I forgot about the voltages too.
fuck
 
@Mysticial AVX unit can have staged pipeline too so even if latency goes up it won't waste 2/3 of cycles.
 
Even if you run in a 2/1 ratio, each unit will have drastically different voltages. And the moment you connect them, bad things will happen.
 
Ok, thanks, I learned something new.
 
@EuriPinhollow For FPU instructions, the current 4-6 cycle latencies are already too much. Increasing them to potentially 18+ cycles is going to destroy a lot of applications.
The point of downclocking isn't decreasing the # of times the gates flips. But it lets you drop the voltage. Voltages matter more than frequency in terms of power consumption.
 
1:17 AM
@Mysticial To be more specific, power consumption is O(N) on frequency and O(N^2) on voltage.
(Yes, I realize you already knew that).
 
@Mysticial well fuck that's how much Intel throttles under AVX512 load already IIRC.
 
@JerryCoffin Well, TIL.
 
anandtech.com/show/11544/… - oh ok it's like 2/3 now.
 
@JerryCoffin electricity != electromagnetic wave
even though they share the same first 6 letters
 
@MarkGarcia Simple application of Ohm's law. I = E / R, and P = I * E. Substituting the first into the second, P = E / R * E, which is more often written as P = E^2 / R.
 
1:24 AM
I assume by E, you mean V for voltage
 
@Telkitty And blue jeans != dreams of ponies. Both true, and of course neither has any relevance to the question at hand.
 
P = VI, where is frequency coming into play?
 
@Telkitty E is short for electromotive force (or EMF), which is measure in volts.
@Telkitty Frequency comes into play in two ways. The linear part is simply that with CMOS, you only get current flow (other than leakage) when you switch a gate's state, so the more often it switches state, the more current it draws. The non-linear part is that as you increase the clock frequency, you (often) need to increase the voltage to maintain stable operation.
 
@EuriPinhollow The complaints are because a single AVX512 instruction inserted into otherwise non-AVX code is fucking up the clocks for everybody. The ideal scenario is to not throttle until the power draw actually becomes a problem. So rather than automatically clocking down the processor on any AVX(512), do it only when there's enough of them in X duration of time to exceed the power limit.
 
@Mysticial Well, even Intel Atom had AVX instructions (heck you could do AVX on your watch). Would be pretty surprised if AVX-512 didn't make it on to the laptop.
 
1:35 AM
The problem here is that I don't know what the cost of an "on but idling" execution unit is. If the cost of idling is negligible, then you can do this approach. But if the act of turning on that AVX512 unit (even idle) eats up a ton of power, then you're kinda fucked.
 
Put the two together, and it means that power consumption varies approximately with the cube of the frequency. However, depending on your viewpoint, the linear component may not count--as you increase the frequency, you draw more power, but you also finish the computation more quickly, so you can return to idle that much sooner, and total power consumption hasn't risen a whole lot.
@Mysticial The power draw with the clock gated would be mostly the leakage current. Intel's happy to talk (at length) about cool "stuff" they've done to decrease leakage (e.g., high-K metal gates), but when it comes to "how much difference did that make", it's almost always given relative to their previous generation, usually on a graph that has no scale or units given (and it often looks like it's logarithmic) so it's essentially impossible to guess at real numbers.
 
@JerryCoffin There is a way to measure it directly. Get an overclockable Skylake X processor and set the AVX512 offset to zero. Then compare the power draw of non-AVX code vs. non-AVX code with a single 512-bit FPU instruction inserted every ~1 million instructions.
Actually I partially take that back. Every single AVX512 instruction is capable of executing without that off-core FMA unit. And I believe I've seen cases where the off-core FMA does not power on unless there's a sufficient density of 512-bit instructions that they'll stall if the CPU tries to force them all through the main AVX units.
 
@Mysticial I believe that's that the Intel doc we were looking at a week ago (or so) seemed to imply, anyway. It wasn't entirely clear about whether there might be some 512 bit instructions that only work on the 512-bit unit though.
 
1:51 AM
@JerryCoffin Based on the AIDA64 numbers, I can deduce that FMA unit handles all SIMD floating-point as well as all SIMD integer multiplication. It seems to do nothing else.
So 512-bit addition, shuffles, and shifts don't use the FMA hardware. There's 2 x 4 FMA units on the core. (4 for each of the port0 and port1 each making up 1 AVX unit)
And there's 8 of them in the off-core dedicated AVX512 FMA unit.
So this makes up the dual-issue AVX512 capability of all FPU instructions.
But when the off-core dedicated FMA is powered down (either because it's just off, or it's actually disabled in the lower-end Xeons), all instructions that need FMA hardware go into the 2 x 4 FMA on the core.
And when there's a sufficiently low density of them, they can (theoretically) all go there without significantly affecting performance. So there's no need to power on the off-core FMA unit.
 
@JerryCoffin linky? sounds interesting
 
@Mysticial Right--so to measure the power, you need a high enough density to "convince" it that powering up the FMA unit is worthwhile, but still low enough that the instructions you're executing aren't the major effect. To get a meaningful measurement, you'd probably want to do several runs, with slowly increasing density, and look for a discontinuity in the power draw.
 
@JerryCoffin Yeah. My guess it that you can concentrate them in a dense cluster. Maybe a few hundred of them consecutively will be enough to force on the off-core FMA. Then go back to non-AVX for the next million instructions.
 
cool thanks!
 
2:00 AM
"Where is it?"
"Here's a 1000 page book to read!"
 
@Mysticial Oh, so now you want me to tell him to start looking at section 15.26? Well, I'm not gonna do it! I have to go home now. :-)
 
:)
cya
 
@Mysticial Buy! Oh, oops. Bye!
 
how to defeat your frenemy - tell them there is gold in a gigantic mountain ... but really, the gold is only finger nail small and mountain everest big
 
 
3 hours later…
5:27 AM
There should be a way to annotate a structure so that when it appears in scope, itsmembers are automatically in the same 'namespace' as other local variables, thus avoiding the need to refer to that object. For example, void something(const option S& s) { std::cout << a;//s.a shortcut}
its what god intended for structured bindings
 
@Mikhail using(s) { /*s.*/a = 42; } ;)
 
@MarkGarcia does that actually work?
doesn't seem to work on gcc trunk
 
lel no
 
@Mikhail That's what Pascal's using statement does. I didn't find it particularly useful. Not terrible, but not really a huge improvement either.
 
@MarkGarcia fuck you, you played me like a fiddle
 
5:34 AM
@JerryCoffin Well fuck me I did not know that. I was actually joking. Was thinking of C#'s and using sounds like a good name what @Mikhail wants to do.
 
@JerryCoffin I pass around a bunch of POD option structures.
I should break out the 'ol Crayola and write a letter to Bjarne
 
 
3 hours later…
8:12 AM
@JerryCoffin And Visual Basic't With!
 
 
1 hour later…
9:27 AM
in C++ Questions and Answers, 7 hours ago, by crasic
ANSI C isn't bad, its just older. There are many platforms, particularly for older embedded systems that won't have an optimized c11 compiler ever
the end
 
 
1 hour later…
Ven
10:28 AM
Hi
@MarkGarcia literally with
 
Ven
or WITH-SLOTS
 
assuming I have a const char x[] = { ... }; in my code in another translation unit
can I get x's size?
 
Ven
strlen (:
 
it contains 0s
I tried calling sizeof on that in that TU and then externing both but this didn't seem to work :O
 
nwp
10:32 AM
@BartekBanachewicz Wrong room go here.
 
@nwp but people who can help me are here
 
@BartekBanachewicz add a variable at the end and calculate from its address?
 
@MarkGarcia ew
 
hehe
or wrap it in a struct... I don't know
 
nwp
@BartekBanachewicz People who troll you are here. People who help you are there. Now "there" might be empty, but that is life.
 
10:34 AM
@nwp I've been helping and getting help in this exact room years before you even appeared on SO
I think I'm fine, thanks.
@MarkGarcia and how would that help exactly?
the thing that's puzzling me the most is why the extern for size didn't work
 
Yeah I just realized it won't :D
 
oh shit wait
lol nvm
I forgot to call the function
sizeof werked
 
sizeof twerked
 
sizeof wreked
 
Ven
sizeof yourself lest you \0 yourself
 
10:43 AM
but it overflowed :(
 
10:58 AM
Does anyone know what happened to eel.is/c++draft? My links are all dead :(
4
 
nwp
11:12 AM
Something about the domain having expired. Supposedly the person who made the site has been notified and will fix it eventually.
 
Ven
RIP
 
right when C++17 is officially ISO-approved
 
11:51 AM
Kurtis Beavers on December 04, 2017

This post is part of a series on how we’re making Channels, the thinking behind the product, and insight into the process. We’ve got smart people working on smart solutions, and continue looking to the community and alpha/beta testers as we iterate toward launch. Read “Why Channels”, the first post in the series for more background info.

Working on Channels has been like any remodeling project: You start out excited, then you pull down the wood paneling and suddenly realize you’ve got rewiring to do — solving one issue leads to even more. …

The smart people at SmartOverflow had yet another smart idea, how exciting (and smart!).
 
12:03 PM
and written by beavers
lovely
solving one issue leads to even more.
hopefully not
 
nwp
I think channels has potential. I can see in-house knowledge being documented like that. And the best part is that it shouldn't break existing stuff.
 
depends on the issue you solved and how you solved it
@nwp can I have a tl;dr? the article seemed quite long ^^'
 
nwp
@Morwenn Add a tab for company-private stackoverflow. Plus a million little details to make it convenient.
 
oh
could be useful when you totally lack doc about internal stuff
 
12:28 PM
I am always wary of sweet words from sarcastic people ... like cicada
 
Ven
12:50 PM
@ArkadiuszKoćma what the fuck is that even about?
 
A house with more rooms needs more doors.
so well written ...
 
@ArkadiuszKoćma Change for the Change god!
 
1:24 PM
0
Q: How to return odd and even number in 5d string array and put the results in 1d array

Moody QueenI'm a beginner at c++ and I want a code to return odd and even number in 5d string array and put the results in two array

More dimensions is better right?
 
Probably the structs weren't covered yet
 
@Telkitty That's why I don't stress you with unduly nice words
 
1:39 PM
dimensions are easy with maths and computer science - one is with more variables, the other with more [], for example
 
2:00 PM
@nwp that latter is a stretch
 
nwp
2:34 PM
I didn't expect people to disapprove of my balls on SO. — nwp 9 secs ago
Also I'm totally offended by the gender assumption.
 
lol
 
LOL
nice nice nice
 
Ven
maybe that's for his ethics class
 
nwp
I'm surprised that there is no ethics.stackexchange.com.
 
2:50 PM
 
nwp
3:18 PM
Let me know how that works out for you.
 
:D :D
 
3:43 PM
 
nwp
Maybe they should add an alias to make it easier to discover.
 
4:04 PM
@nwp Tell them.
 
4:16 PM
@nwp lol
 
nwp
> It will forever elude me what an abstract base class without data members has to do with an interface
Maybe I should try to figure that out some day instead of giving up on it.
 
Maybe making a change of careers from teaching physics into scientific coding. There is a job offer coming in the mail, but I don't know what to expect.
It is usual to get moving expensies in the industry?
 
nwp
If you want a real answer you can go to careers.so and check how many percent of job offers are tagged with relocation.
 
@nwp it's a javaism...
 
nwp
If you want an answer that I pulled out of thin air: It depends on how much they like you and for how much less per month you are willing to work if they cover relocation costs. But generally it indicates a less bureaucratic company.
Mordacious is a terrible band. They use a chat.so-like ping in their music and confuse me.
 
4:47 PM
@nwp There was for a while, but they had to drop it--it turned into a giant voting ring, with literally everybody cheating.
 
@JerryCoffin lol
 
@dmckee I'm not sure if "usual" is the right word, but certainly fairly common.
 
The whole mid-career change of track thing is terrifying because you don't have nearly as much implicit knowledge about the industry you are heading toward as you have in your current situation.
 
@JerryCoffin lol
 
I'm intensely interested in the work on offer and nearly petrified at the same time.
 
4:57 PM
@dmckee Sounds pretty awesome! Seriously--as I see it, there are two keys to success here. One is that your future employer realizes you're making a change, so it may take you a little while to come up to speed. The second is that you realize it's going to take a fair amount of extra work, especially at first. You'll need to put in some extra time just studying new material. Meet those two, however, and it seems entirely reasonable to expect good results.
 
5:14 PM
@JerryCoffin Not quite the same. But I have a friend in Biomedical. And he was forced to do programming bootcamp because he couldn't find a job.
 
Now he works for Amazon, but from what I last heard, not as a programmer.
 
what's wrong with you people %)
also, eel.is/c++draft is no more, where do I find a replacement?
 
@Abyx because paywall?
 
6:06 PM
@nwp abstract class can have methods implemented, an interface only define the signature of the methods to be implemented.
in other words, an interface is an abstract class with no data and only abstract methods.
 
nwp
In my little world int has an interface which is that it supports a bunch of operators and copying and value semantics. The abstract class also has an interface: Pointer semantics and a bunch of functions. The problem I have is that the abstract class has an interface, but it itself isn't an interface.
And even if you want to squint at it and say that the abstract class describes the interface and you can substitute one for the other: you really can't, because you are missing so many things. For example that interfaces can have data members and value semantics.
 
hmm, what language?
 
nwp
C++, but in my infinite wisdom I expect it to work the same for any language.
 
Well C++ doesn't have interfaces? does it?
Interface shouldn't have data members, they describe the methods and the rest is an implementation detail
 
nwp
People are telling me that abstract classes without data members are interfaces. And the meta classes proposal might lead to std::interface which essentially is exactly such a class category.
 
6:16 PM
Interface are class that describe behaviours without implementations
 
nwp
@wilx I did.
 
@Abyx Why would we care about that? It's just a draft from...what...eight months ago?
 
Any idea how to send a shipment accross the atlantic ocean cheaply
 
@JerryCoffin it makes C++17 the official standard
 
By shipment I mean something around 100kg-200kg
 
6:22 PM
means that now C++ is C++17
 
@Abyx Sure--and all of us have had that draft for months.
 
@JerryCoffin whatever man, whatever
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix That is a very narrow view of things.
 
@Puppy it's not a view
In computing, an interface is a shared boundary across which two or more separate components of a computer system exchange information. The exchange can be between software, computer hardware, peripheral devices, humans and combinations of these. Some computer hardware devices, such as a touchscreen, can both send and receive data through the interface, while others such as a mouse or microphone may only provide an interface to send data to a given system. == Hardware interfaces == Hardware interfaces exist in many of the components, such as the various buses, storage devices, other I/O devices...
 
Wikipedia is not a source.
 
6:28 PM
> In object-oriented languages, the term interface is often used to define an abstract type that contains no data or code, but defines behaviors as method signatures.
 
at best, that describes the views of a couple of people who implemented programming languages and nothing more.
 
that link merely documents the specification of the "interface" keyword in Java, which is a very different thing.
this is what I meant when I said you had a narrow view.
I say "interface", you say, "Interface keyword as defined in Java specification"
not all the other things it can and is used to mean
 
I think that you are clearly not understanding my point so I am going to get some food
 
6:30 PM
Why are you fighting over this?
 
All the implementation of interface I ever encountered follow this principle
 
nwp
Well, templates don't follow that principle. They define an interface by how they use a type. That is not ideal, but an alternative.
 
@Puppy I guess Booch is about as authoritative as it gets. He says: "The interface of a class captures only its outside view, encompassing our abstraction of the behavior common to all instances of the class. [...] The interface of a class is the one place where we assert all of the assumptions that a client can make about any instances of the class; the implementation encapsulates details about which no client may make assumptions." (Object Oriented Analysis and Design, p50).
 
@Puppy you can argue that is a narrow view, but if someone start calling an abstract class with implementation details in it, then calling it an interface is meaningless
 
That's a pretty abstract definition though...
 
6:34 PM
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix It's not meaningless, it's just not as narrow as that.
Jerry's Booch quote is a lot closer
 
As I read it, we say the same thing
 
clearly not
for instance, Booch can include, say, operator overloads.
he can also include the semantics, not just names and types, of methods.
 
then you misread me.
 
which is pretty fuckin' critical
 
nwp
Why are data members not part of the outside view? Or are they and Java just can't express that?
 
6:36 PM
and he can also discuss the interface of free functions
 
operator overloads are "methods" with syntax sugar
@nwp they're not because it's an implementation detail and OOP should encapsulate things
 
@nwp Because implementing multiple inheritance with data members is a lot more complicated.
the implementation detail thing is bullshit
 
@nwp I think the usual view is that saying what data must be present defines (some of) the implementation.
 
@nwp Pretty much the latter--Java can't express that (not because they couldn't have let it, but because they decided you shouldn't be able to do that).
 
any method, property, constructor, or data member may or may not be an implementation detail.
 
6:38 PM
if your class has an int in it. It's pretty much an implementation detail
 
uh huh
and how many Java classes have you seen where it's an "implementation detail" but they offer getInt and setInt?
and furthermore, there are complications like lvalue vs rvalue which are not preserved and if your interface needs to offer an lvalue, you must expose a data member, which is totally fine.
 
nwp
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix interface Car{ string name; int weight; virtual void render(Matrix transformation); }. That makes some sense to me.
Basically it says if a Car doesn't have an int weight then it's not a Car in this context.
 
@nwp Your mixing of data and rendering that data offends me, by the way.
 
It might make sense to you, but an interface would give you something like this:

Car{virtual string getName(), virtual int getWeight()}
the difference is that getName could be something computed internally and not stored
 
@dmckee As far as I've been able to figure things out based on the history, it mostly comes down to this: as Smalltalk was originally implemented, they didn't have an easy way of dealing with public data, so they didn't allow it. Many OO languages since have taken that implementation detail and treated it as part of the interface that defines what OO actually is in general. The notion that an interface must consist solely of things that look like function calls has no theoretical basis though.
 
6:43 PM
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix It could be, but a) it rarely is and b) it makes no sense to absolutely require that the interface vendor must abstract that.
 
the interface hides from where the data is obtained. It could be a private attribute like it could be computed using the model name and the year it was produced
@Puppy Argue about that with Java,C# Developer
Otherwise it's just an abstract class
 
I am a C# developer
 
Does C# has data member in interfaces?
 
no
you're confusing what some given language offers and what is actually good design and makes sense.
 
not confusing anything, I name things the way they're called
 
6:46 PM
oddly enough, the way they're called depends massively on the context.
there is no one definition
 
If [who called what] named they're interface bubblepof I'd name it like that
 
see, you're just randomly assuming that Java is definitive#
whereas we all know that Java is a worthless crock of shit
and Java is not even remotely the originator or definer of interfaces.
 
I'm not a Java developer if that matters
 
they existed before OOP did.
if you want to consider the original inventor's intention as canonical, then I imagine that an interface is just some contract agreed to by caller and callee, and that's it.
 
@Puppy with that definition in mind, how does an interface differ from an abstract class now?
because if the contract agreed by a caller and a callee anything can be an interface because things don't happen randomly
 
6:54 PM
It's about the intention
An abstract class gives you a starting point or framework to solve a problem, an interface is about saying what functionality you offer/require
You don't really care how an a class implements the interface, you just want it to do what it is supposed to do
 
That's what I keep saying
 
so idea like a "car" interface are stupid, but "driveable" make more sense (car analogies suck).
I've not read the entire transcript over this
 
The best interface I have in mind is defining something like an Iterable object
 
it's a nice enough example yes
 
It doesn't matter how internally data is stored as long as it describe an interface to iterate over the elements
 
6:59 PM
the interface describes the behaviour that you expect to be able to use
 
The problem is, languages like Java have encouraged a stupid mentality that you basic data types should have an interface in front of them, so you end up with interface Shape { int getArea() }; class ShapeImpl { private int area = 0; int getArea(){ return area; } }
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix I think you're mostly expressing the degree to which you're accustomed to a particular family of syntax. For comparison, consider that in Eiffel, I can have something like x = foo.y;, and not know or care whether y represents an actual data item, or a function that takes no parameters and returns the data I care about (and likewise if I had foo.y = x; I don't need to know or care about whether y is actually a data item, or a function that returns its equivalent of a reference).
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix There is little distinction.
 
7:02 PM
in fact
 
@JerryCoffin sounds a bit like c# accessors
 
an abstract class is just not really a thing.
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix The basic intent is that an interface is restricted to defining only an interface, whereas an abstract class can define not only an interface, but also an arbitrary amount of implementation as well.
 
@Puppy well, depends on the language really :P
 
it's just a convenience for implementers, at most
 
7:03 PM
In Java, interfaces and abstract classes are now basically the same thing (as interfaces can have logic implemented). But there is a semantic difference
 
@thecoshman interfaces in Java can have implementation now?
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix It's actually quite a bit simpler. It's a simple bit of syntactical change: when you call a function that takes no arguments, you don't need to include empty parens, so f.x is similar to f.x() in Java or C++.
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix since 8 IIRC
 
@JerryCoffin so a bit like ruby, it's probably the other way around in fact
 
I think there are limits on how much logic
 
7:04 PM
\o/
I hope it is not going to suck.
6
Takeshi Kovacs is the heroest hero of the unrealistic heroes.
I can't even type straight how excited I am.
 
@JerryCoffin is that for all function calls?
 
@thecoshman Yes (at least if memory serves).
 
interesting... not sure how I feel about that :\
a bit unsettled to be honest
it's like I'm instinctively feeling there's a downside to it...
 
@thecoshman It would be easy to allow this for C++ member functions as well (but, interestingly, not for free functions).
 
Guys I'm having a brain fart. What do you call variables you want to use as like fixed variables (not immutable) that act as like "settings" for a program that you can change later. You usually place them at the beginning of the code like APP_NAME, TIMEOUT_SECONDS, etc.
 
7:08 PM
@thecoshman Eiffel has some shortcomings, but I don't recall any complaints about that point (though it's been a couple of decades since I touched Eiffel, so my memory of it is probably even less reliable than usual).
 
@thecoshman if it's like ruby, parenthesis are probably optional for example x.fun z.foo 1, 2,3 is different to x.fun z.foo(1, 2), 3
 
@Arrow Globals? Your question isn't very clear though.
 
Constants?
 
@JerryCoffin Sorry I think that's it..
AH
 
7:12 PM
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix He says "...that you can change later."
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix yeah that's it. THanks
something along those lines
I meant like if you wanted the use the program later but with different parameters
I know you can probably pass it in outside, but it's easier to change on the spot
 
@Arrow In that case, yes, it sounds like you want some global constants.
 
nwp
@Arrow Magic numbers?
 
haha anyways thanks guys
 
@nwp usually magic numbers don't even have a name assigned to them
 
nwp
7:17 PM
True. And they are not only numbers. Named magic values? "Magic" because the values come from outside program logic.
 
expandToScreen() { this.width(screen.width + (this.border - 3) * 2 + 37)}
 
7:42 PM
I'm curious to see how many people simply select-all -> delete. Then proceed to copy-paste dump their homework or a screenshot of it with the title: "HALP URGANT!!! PLZ!" — Mysticial 59 secs ago
 
@Arrow load from config file :\
@nwp they are 'magic' because you are just have these values that don't explain where they come from ie log(3, "hi there") vs debug_level = 3; log(debug_level, "hi there")
 
nwp
in Game Development on The Stack Exchange Network Chat, 3 mins ago, by Pikalek
once had a colleague who believed if you couldn't come up with a good, meaningful name for a method/class/struct/whatever, then you should deliberately give it a bad name that communicated a lack of usefulness. So we'd occasionally find variables named Bob, NotBob, Alice, etc\
 
@nwp I like the core idea... but that's truly awful
how about, if you can't come up with a decent name, you probably just wasted your time writing that code, you badlet
 
 
2 hours later…
10:19 PM
quitting online communities can be hard, some group leaders/organizers take it personally, I just don't want to have a bunch of unused accounts floating around on the internet
 
nwp
Yes. Don't clog up the intertubes.
 
I wonder the proportion of zombie vs real active accounts on the internet
 
Hello, Cruel World!
 
lol?
hey @code-app
 
actually today has been pretty good, despite starting with slipping on the ice and falling when I was trying to catch the bus
How are you @Telkitty?
 
10:31 PM
samo
 
We got snow here. How is sunny Sydney?
 
it has been cloudy and raining for the past few days - after a dry spell of nearly 2 months
 
but is it warm?
 
yeah
 
that's always better than cold...even if it's raining.
especially when it's raining
 
10:34 PM
around 20-25 degrees/70-80 farenheit
 
that is near perfect
 
yeah, normally Sydney whether is ok - never snows where I am and it rarely gets over 100 farenheit, maybe 2-3 days maximum out of a year
 
00:00 - 23:0023:00 - 00:00

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