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12:48 AM
posted on June 01, 2017 by @hostilefork Brian Dickens

@hostilefork wrote: Question asked of me was: Could you explain in laymen terms why unset! is there in Rebol type languages, and why it's there? To my brain, something like none makes more sense to use for 'no thing'. I get that unset removes the reference between word and value(s), but unset pops up for "no return value", even though it's a return val

 
1:09 AM
posted on June 01, 2017 by @gchiu

@gchiu wrote: Ok, set up a user DSN which works when tested from the 64bit ODBC panel >> do %odbc-test.reb Script: ODBC Test Script Version: Date: ** Error: [ODBC Firebird Driver][Firebird]Dynamic SQL Error SQL error code = -104 Token unknown - line 1, column 14 ` ** Where: insert-odbc --anonymous-- insert for-each do catch either either --anonym

 
 
3 hours later…
3:50 AM
@rebolek where is your #BSON parser? ;)
 
@GrahamChiu good question :)
 
@rebolek what about #mongodb for #rebol ?
You said it was ready in 2013 ... does it need more work?
 
I remember that :) I had a BSON parser, but not the MongoDB driver, as I never used MongoDB. I will try to find it.
 
@rebolek it appears to be just straight tcp
request - response
 
@GrahamChiu yes, it looked easy to do.
 
3:54 AM
no harder than redis://
 
Probably not. I just had no use for Mongo. But the BSON parser must be somewhere, I will try to find it :)
 
@rebolek Not on github then
 
Certainly not, I haven’t published it.
@GrahamChiu I found it. I will test it and publish it.
 
@rebolek heh, that was quick :)
 
Typing "BSON" into search box and waiting for result isn’t that hard ;)
So it seems to be partially working. I have to check what's not finished.
 
4:11 AM
@rebolek so why did you write a parser if you weren't going to use mongodb?
Is there another use for it?
 
Because I like to write parsers :)
3
 
@rebolek can we have a TLS 1.2 one ?
 
:-D
 
4:31 AM
@rebolek it's not that different from TLS 1.0 from what I can see reading @Cyphre's parser
 
 
10 hours later…
2:29 PM
0
Q: Grayscale pictures randomly have a red shade

AladdinSaneI am taking pictures of the ground at night thanks to infrared leds. The program which pilots the camera is written in Python and uses OpenCV2.4. Even though pictures are saved in a RGB format, they are clearly gray (because of the infrared light). But sometimes, all the picture has a uniform r...

 
 
2 hours later…
4:24 PM
@rgchris @johnk has the altme feed died?
 
@GrahamChiu Likely AltME instance needs to be restarted. Dies silently.
 
5:03 PM
@HostileFork I just came across this function: semiquote, how is one supposed to use semiquote?
 
 
2 hours later…
6:52 PM
@GrahamChiu AltME only reposts messages from Announce, there were none after May 18?
 
Ah! The web-public groups!
 
7:08 PM
@ShixinZeng semiquote tweaks the VALUE_FLAG_UNEVALUATED bit. It allows you to say, e.g. block: ["a" "b"] | print semiquote block, to subvert the evaluated parameter check. The name is "bad on purpose" because I wasn't ready to actually name it.
And I also wasn't ready to endorse a general "evaluated?" check for any word, only function arguments.
It's all based on being able to tell the difference between if [I messed up my condition] [code] and block: [I meant to do this] | if block [code]
 
7:39 PM
@GrahamChiu @Adrian and others: my gmail has decided to lock me out for reasons known to Google alone. If you want to get in touch, use skype or something. In the meantime...if you start getting crazy emails and texts from my gmail account, then ignore this alert, as I probably have access again.
 
@HostileFork when can we tell if they're crazy?
And what's your Skype account?
 
Who knows. Poke around until you find someone who sounds like me.
 
20 forks on skype
 
@HostileFork OK. Thanks. I was looking for examples of semiquote, but I found none
 
If I weren't so resigned to the hopelessness of the universe, I suppose I wouldn't forward my hostilefork.com mail to google. Maybe this is the wake up call. Or maybe it's just the "you really can't do anything about it so give up" call.
 
7:42 PM
heaps of hostiles
now looking for Brains
 
@ShixinZeng RebolBot had an interesting example of where the desire was to print the evaluative result, e.g. == result, and it hit the case of a block. So instead of == [3 + 4] it would get == 7. This was a good case of where PRINT had been used on a value inadvertently.
 
@HostileFork I see
 
@ShixinZeng So that's why PRINT/EVAL exists, but, if PRINT/EVAL didn't exist then you could get past it with PRINT SEMIQUOTE
 
@HostileFork I see this comment in semiquoted?, is it enough to check for VALUE_FLAG_RELATIVE to determine if the word is a function parameter?
 
8:24 PM
@ShixinZeng Nope, and VALUE_FLAG_RELATIVE is expiring as soon as I figure out some other things. Basically, now that we can test a REBNOD for if it's a series or which kind, unbound is EMPTY_ARRAY (no flags besides SERIES_FLAG_ARRAY) which can be contrasted with a paramlist (so, relative) or context (so, specific)
No need for a relative bit (nor NULL testing)
We really do need the evaluation process itself to mark parameters as evaluated or not, if we care to have such a bit. I felt having it was valuable, because--as I've mentioned--there are a lot of easy mistakes to make, someone says while [a != b] [...] and turns it into if [a != b] [...], etc.
But it's an experiment, seeing where it is useful or not, how costly is it.
 
@HostileFork So the context of a word will be always set, whether it's relative/unbound can be determined by looking at its context?
 
@ShixinZeng "the binding will never be null", yes. The series flags on the binding will tell you.
Which is as fast a test as the value bits were
And they don't get out of sync
 
wouldn't it be two memory access vs one?
 
On read, technically yes, but on write it's one write vs. two... also, on read, you almost always are going to do something with the binding so it's going to be pulled into a register
Odds are you aren't just checking to see if it's relative and doing nothing with the binding
 
True
 
8:38 PM
There are some hard questions to answer before I can commit Virtual Binding Step 1. I have been puzzling over it, but it is merged up.
I think, that where it's going, is "on demand closures"
Basically, all functions become closures when a reification is necessary.
But, assume it's not necessary at the outset.
Ladislav lobbied all functions should have closure semantics, with the fairly compelling argument which I've summarized here often as foo: function [x] [y: 1 | return function [z] [x + y + z]]
e.g. "why should that not work"
With "specific binding" one of the elements of closure cost was eliminated--the need to do a deep copy of their body on each call.
But the second element of closure cost--the need for the parameters to be a GC-able object that is allowed to outlive the function's lifetime--has been a tax. Right now the tax is paid by all FUNCTION but not FUNC
My leaning is that we use Move_Value's upcoming knowledge of where the stack level a bound value is being moved into to decide, at the moment it would be relevant, to reify a function's frame... but start all functions off assuming they only need stack
Then, only closures pay, when they need to.
The user can remain ignorant of this... but if they see something "closurifying" when they feel it's unnecessary, they might unbind things to avoid it. I've likened this to realizing when you've made a FUNCTION and you've got SET-WORD!s in it that aren't necessary to be locals, and so you need to explicitly ban them from being put local in the frame.
I don't have any hard data about how many functions would actually "closureify" yet.
But if we can use REBFRM as specifiers by default, and closureification is relatively rare (which I imagine/hope it is) then it should improve matters.
 
I haven't used any closure related features yet.
 
Most people don't, and most people didn't understand them anyway
So I suspect odds are, the proposal above is on the right track
Closures will get a little slower as a result, because they will have to copy their stack frames into an object. But that's not that slow
Anyway, we just stop reifying frames on the off chance things might want closure semantics, and only pay when they leak a frame-bound word to a higher stack context
So REBFRM* can be the specifier at the outset
And "because, magic" we can look at bindings and see whether it has the cell flag or not, we make sure REBFRM* starts with a cell
Just make sure nothing has a REBFRM* stored that lives longer than it should (e.g. know your stack level when writing), reify before that happens.
 
That sounds good
 
The more I think about it the less concerned I am about the downsides
Because as you say, how many people really use closures
Red doesn't even have them
So ours are a little slow because they pushed a stack frame first and then converted later. Sue us. :-)
 
8:54 PM
:)
I just published my r3-parser I wrote a few weeks ago, BTW
3
 
@ShixinZeng cc @MarkI ^--
 
Remember that I was playing with replacing the C parser with a rebol one
But with my current focus on View, I don't have time working on this
So before I forget about it, I figured I'd better just publish it as-is
 
@ShixinZeng PARSE is sadly, slow, and also kind of bad code. It's very ad-hoc. If you look at Red's PARSE it's more sane. github.com/red/red/blob/master/runtime/parse.reds
I made PARSE slower, because one of the few benefits of how it's written the way it is, is that we can build debug insights into it.
So each parse recursion has a frame, and you can BREAKPOINT it and see where you are
The one nice thing about it
 
So, what's the plan for PARSE? I guess it will be rewritten?
 
@ShixinZeng Likely not by me :-) But I do feel, in general, that the codebase has come a long way to the extent that it is healthier and self-checking to where if interested parties wished to make modifications, they can do so.
 
9:03 PM
@HostileFork Agreed
 
Just want to keep pushing on that aspect, and if something is too fuzzy to understand in the implementation, it's probably wrong. I want to write genuinely straightforward code.
So I hope this first virtual binding step makes things clearer, not fuzzier.
 
On the news about View on Ren-C, I got a few simple demos working
4
 
@ShixinZeng View is an extension?
 
@HostileFork yes, but right now, it has to be builtin
 
Neat. Well if you need DELECT, the code was kept up to a point, but it was so crummy that I would imagine you could probably write a better one or rethink it
 
9:07 PM
I'll take a look when I need it
 
Before we start looking at systemic optimization, I do want to get these binding changes in.
And optimization is another kind of general thing which outside contractors/consultants could be brought in on. And it will help them greatly that the code has comments!
 
Sure
OK, gotta go, TTYL
 
L8r
 
 
2 hours later…
10:52 PM
@HostileFork Delect was only used in the r3-gui as far as I know.
@ShixinZeng Is there a branch with this?
 

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