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12:45 AM
telkitty.com is suspended - admin used one of my telkitty.com email addresses to spam people, I suspended that account, he suspended my account & refuse to answer my emails
now thinking of setting up own email server
ew ... have to hand over root password to support, not sure how safe that is
lovely isn't it, going away into mountains with no/poor reception for 3 days & coming back to suspended account(s)
anyways, I have another semi-managed server so I just going to migrate everything there
 
1:39 AM
Nah mate the @Ell HC is a massive beast
 
hehe
 
 
2 hours later…
3:36 AM
today, I am trying to setup a private mail server (with support)
does anyone knows how to fix mx record?
 
3:53 AM
@Telkitty hire a linux admin. please :/
 
I want less support
I made the mistake of relying on an admin & now I lost control to my own server
 
@Telkitty Wear cheap shoes (with less arch support).
 
talking about cheap shoes, yesterday I woke up in the snowy mountain to frozen boots
& overheard someone else asking 'how to walk in frozen boots?'
 
Yeah.. It was reward for hiring a poor indian dude who agrees to work for food.
 
also the right way to warm frozen boots with cold feet is to walk 5km
 
 
1 hour later…
5:14 AM
why is outlook frozen with no mail account setup?
 
 
4 hours later…
nwp
9:05 AM
more scary than funny but still pretty neat
 
Yello.
Long time no see.
@Ell You make me feel bad about my life
 
9:59 AM
@VermillionAzure You probably should feel bad about your life.
 
@wilx well g
 
Hi.
 
@wilx May I ask why?
 
@VermillionAzure No.
 
10:06 AM
@VermillionAzure Did you honestly expect a different answer?
 
Ell
@VermillionAzure why? :P
 
telkitty.com is suspended, on the upper side, two of my apps submitted before Easter have both been approved
 
@Telkitty Because of its boots!
 
and I have successfully setup my private mail server today
yizhang@telkitty.com is suspended, but yizhang@telkitty.com.au is now working!
 
nwp
@Telkitty I wanted to do that too some time.
 
10:21 AM
I had semi managed VPS, so the server side was mostly setup by the support though
had to fix mx record on godaddy myself
config client side
 
@Ell Because I'm really not as far along as I might think
or hope.
 
Looking at the Turkish referendum election results map, it is clearly large cities vs the rest of the country.
It seems like many of recent elections are like that.
 
Ell
@VermillionAzure you mean in your knowledge?
 
10:44 AM
@Telkitty Godaddy .. The beat vhoice of hosting provider everr lol..
 
godaddy is a domain register, I am using someone else for the VPS hosting
 
@Telkitty why you prefer to have a self hosted website.. cloud based solution like wordpress.com, shopify or something like that don't fit your needs?
 
because I have more control
 
I would understand that if you have a successful profitable product .. anyway it's your choice.. wasting time to tasks not related to things which you are passionate about.
tit's my last comment on your case
 
11:00 AM
If you are not aware, I choose what I do based on my interest, not on how much money I make.
Money is there to serve me, not the other way round
 
11:14 AM
I just wrote traits used to detect whether a comparison or projection function is likely branchless. Thanks pdqsort.
 
11:55 AM
how could you possibly determine that
 
I don't. It's merely a trait that can be specialized by users. With the sexy name is_probably_branchless_comparison.
By default it assumes that std::less and std::greater are branchless with built-in arithmetic types.
 
12:13 PM
@Morwenn Even if you can detect that, why is it useful to know that?
 
@wilx pdqsort has two partitioning functions: one which is insanely fast when the comparisons are branchless, but rather slow when they aren't. When comparisons are supposedly branchful, pdqsort switches to another partitioning function.
 
12:34 PM
am surprised that branchless or not makes such a big difference over just fast or slow comparator
 
Unfortunately I don't know the details.
IIRC it's because one of the algorithms makes more comparisons, but avoids branch prediction problems altogether when the comparisons are branchless, making it faster than the algorithm which performs fewer comparisons.
We'd have to ask orlp for the specifics.
 
FFFffffffffff....!!!
Somehow, my Xubuntu has lost the ability to cycle through tasks backwards with alt-shift-tab.
Somehow, Xorg detects the alt-shift combination as ISO_Next_Group and if I add the tab, it detects it just as alt-tab without the shift.
 
lol Linux users expecting usability
 
12:54 PM
options:    compose:ralt,grp:alt_shift_toggle,grp_led:scroll
This is probably part of the issue. Though I do not know it was there before as well.
 
user image
3
 
heh
 
1:27 PM
@Abyx probably more complicated than that sadly as I don't think the gregorian calendar was then in use, so the months and the star signs may be shifted
 
@Mgetz The shift is only about 2 weeks, and he's given roughly a 2 month range, so it still probably falls in there.
 
@JerryCoffin true, but the earth is also a wobbly top and it's axis rotates on a 45k period
so I'm assuming axis progression as well
 
@Mgetz If memory serves, most astrologers blithely ignore precession of the equinoxes (which is, by the way, closer to a 26K year cycle).
 
@JerryCoffin they ignore a lot of things, like science
 
@Mgetz Thank you captain obvious.
 
1:46 PM
@Abyx Using 16.8.610CE, it does not fit into the Cancer sign.
Using this date converter: muslimphilosophy.com/ip/hijri.htm
And using Julian calendar does not help either, it just shaves off 3 days (stevemorse.org/jcal/julian.html)
 
2:13 PM
 
 
1 hour later…
3:27 PM
@user4581301 Not really, it's just that its interface is surprisingly unintuitive for non-conventional tasks. [Yes, that's bad.] See my answer though — sehe 28 mins ago
Nobody knows how to use iostreams. This is conspicuously a bigger issue than its flaws. IMO
 
personally I just put them both in the bucket of "iostreams are terrible"
 
@Puppy Unfortunately, some of it stems from good points of the iostreams design, so trying to fix it is likely to result in little or no better, and quite possibly worse.
 
@Borgleader
-68
Q: Introduce an "urgent" tag

MiraduroThere are a number of good reasons why you shouldn't add "This is really urgent!!!11" to the body of your question. It distracts users from what you're asking and may be considered rude and demanding of volunteers. However, there are certainly circumstances where users genuinly have an urgent que...

 
3:47 PM
I have no clue how Dicord's business model works.
Yet another startup "Just burning money building market share". What are the promises and intentions? How will they monetize or keep funding?
@JerryCoffin I get this impression more and more, yes.
 
Ven
@sehe Discord?
Discord is premiumware, they have a business model – so they're not a "startup" anymore ;-)
 
How committed are they, then? Why is there no word about any of this on their site?
 
Ven
How "committed"?
to keeping the service free?
 
I mean I might start using it, but if I can't find any information about data privacy and service commitment (or "Terms of use" or so) I don't feel comfortable
Keeping a free service. What's their intention? What user base do they want to serve?
I'm simply not getting it and there is literally zero information on their site
 
@sehe I/O is a lot more complex than most people realize or care to believe. It's difficult to "keep simple things simple", when most of them aren't actually simple to start with.
 
Ven
3:54 PM
it's on their website, in the top menu
 
@JerryCoffin Wait, there are good points of the iostreams design?
 
@Puppy Yes, quite a few of them, AAMOF. It does quite well at separation of concerns, just for one example. When you get down to it, their single biggest weakness is lousy names, leading most to thoroughly misunderstand the design.
 
@Puppy Back then we didn't have variadic templates so the << design allowed to "easily" chain things to print in a type-safe manner.
 
binary mode should have been the default one
 
@JerryCoffin Which concerns, exactly?
seems to me like they mess in formatting and I/O in one place, just to start with
 
4:08 PM
@Puppy IOW, you don't understand the design.
@Puppy I/O vs. formatting is a prime example.
 
last I checked, when you open an fstream, you have that whole binary or not binary thing
I don't see why an fstream requires that flag if it doesn't mess around with formatting
since in both cases it would simply read the bytes out of the file
or why does std::cout have any support for fill characters or anything like that at all, since it is an object for doing I/O to the standard out?
 
@Puppy An fstream doesn't read bytes from a file at all--that's delegated to a streambuffer. It doesn't handle most of the formatting either--that's delegated to the locale. What it does is keep track of an association between a locale and a buffer, and keep track of the formatting state associated with the locale at the moment (which is, admittedly, a problematic area).
@Puppy What you're asking is basically "why isn't an iostream a streambuffer?" The short answer is that it's because a streambuffer is a streambuffer, and if that's what you really want, then you should use a streambuffer.
I'll reiterate: their single biggest weakness is lousy naming leading to misunderstanding of the design.
 
I don't quite think that covers it
for simple example, it's clearly a design issue that the pre-defined instances are the cross formatting/io types
maybe if you had std::cout_buffer instead of std::cout, you could argue it's a user problem
another example would be that if they were truly separated, it would be trivial for people to hold their own instance of the formatting state for the locale
but ISTR that we had to add that later because people kept randomly mutating the formatting state, making it a complete arse to even attempt to work with, because the formatting state and the I/O thing are randomly lumped together in the same object
I guess I would mainly argue that it's less that an iostream isn't a streambuffer, and more that iostream shouldn't exist at all as a predefined component
also I'm having a look at basic_filebuf and it has an imbue function for a locale, which raises questions for me- if it was designed as you said then surely no streambuf should ever need a locale
 
4:25 PM
@Puppy This basically comes down to a question of meeting user expectations. When iostreams new, one fundamental expectation was that it would provide things roughly equivalent to the capabilities of printf and scanf, so if (for example) I had printf("%d\n" foo);, doing roughly the same using iostreams would be little or no extra work.
 
user784668
@JerryCoffin I always wondered why std::ostream is non-copyable. After all, it's basically two pointers plus some POD state.
 
user784668
It'd be great if saving the formatting flags and fill and stuff was just auto old_state = stream.
 
@Puppy Not quite true. You could make a fair argument that a locale isn't a very good design. It's basically a collection of facets (i.e., a heterogeneous collection). The iostream uses the locale for formatting kinds of things (using facets like num_get, num_put, etc.) The stream buffer uses the codecvt facet to convert data between an external and internal representations (e.g., convert a stream of UTF-8 characters to UTF-32 for internal manipulation).
You could delay that conversion until after the stream buffer, and just have the stream buffer hold data in the external representation. It turns out, however, that in quite a few cases you gain a lot by doing that conversion an entire buffer at a time instead of a few characters at a time, so moving that out of the buffer and into the iostream would be quite a bit slower (though I'd agree that it's probably a bit cleaner of a design).
 
user784668
@JerryCoffin Which, of course, raises a question: why not have a function convert_buffer in whatever facet handles this?
 
@Fanael Because you can't easily wrap it up into a clean function--at least with some external representations, you potentially need to store some state between one buffer and the next. Just for an obvious example, assume you have a buffer of UTF-8, and you have a partial code point in the buffer. When you start the next buffer, you need the previous buffer's part of that code point to continue converting. Therefore, it's wrapped up in a class named wstring_convert.
 
4:42 PM
@JerryCoffin Yeah, but that's not really an argument in favour of the design being clean and good. It's an argument in favour of why the bad design is acceptable.
 
That said, the codecvt facet does have do_in and do_out members (with state externalized) to handle the same, just not quite as simply.
 
user784668
@JerryCoffin Exactly, so you can easily wrap it.
 
@Puppy I'd argue that the real defect here is in the design of locales, with code conversion being stored together with things like formatting. I can understand how that happened (e.g., Shift JIS encoding was only used for Japanese) but especially with Unicode, the notion of a (nearly) 1:1 mapping between encoding and formatting conventions is clearly false.
@Fanael Well, do_in and do_out are only for derived classes. The public interface is in and out (not that it makes much difference).
 
user784668
@JerryCoffin The public functions literally just call the virtual ones.
 
@Fanael Yes--the "protected virtual" so-called pattern, still searching for a problem to actually solve...
 
user784668
4:54 PM
@JerryCoffin No need for "so-called", patterns are anti-patterns by definition.
 
@Fanael I'm not sure I agree with that in general. If you view patterns as they were originally discussed as merely observations of common patterns that frequently emerged in well designed software, they're not necessarily terrible. Problems start to arise when people believe they're prescriptive rather than descriptive.
 
I just mention cpp-sort as the best solution to a sorting problem. I'm so modest and proud.
 
@JerryCoffin Yeah, I do think that locales are pretty terrible.
@JerryCoffin I disagree. It seems to me like patterns are workarounds for bad design- they describe the places where the language/library was fucked. I wouldn't consider them as describing well-designed software.
 
5:10 PM
@Puppy In some cases, it's probably true that it's only "the best they could do under the circumstances". In others, however, separation of concerns dictates that some things should be separate. Just for example, get some data, sort it, format it, and display it happens quite a lot. I'm not at all sure that would be better as a single operation.
 
nwp
5:34 PM
This is ridiculous. Upgrade from gcc3 to gcc4 (wtf?) and getting punished for it too.
 
I doubt the downvote is because of that
 
nwp
I can't decide between That's what you get for using ancient software and Shouldn't have upgraded.
 
nwp
5:55 PM
turns out LRiO is the first one to address me with the appropriate title /cc @JerryCoffin
 
Wait, LRiO changed their name? :o
2
 
@Morwenn I wonder why did you use "their"
 
@Abyx Why would you ask such a question?
 
@Morwenn I mean why not just "his"
 
@Abyx Because I don't fucking know.
 
6:10 PM
but there's a default /s
 
wat
 
you know, the default pronoun
 
I don't.
Haha, joking. I just don't give a fuck.
 
you're not funny
 
Thanks captain obvious.
 
6:14 PM
you're welcome, son
 
6:29 PM
I'm bored.
 
6:40 PM
I'm still bored.
 
nwp
there is a new episode of Doctor Who out
and various other tv-series have recently started again
 
I don't watch Doctor Who.
I don't watch series at all actually.
 
Ell
@Abyx I wonder why you asked this question
I'm going through learn python the hard way with my brother
 
nwp
you could watch some cppcon or gdc videos, some of them are pretty good
 
Ell
It's rather weird, doing text encoding and functions before if statements :S
 
6:45 PM
@Ell Why learning things the hard way when you can just chill & learn? :o
@nwp Haha, I never managed to watch more than 2 minutes of a talk xD
 
Ell
@Morwenn because it's free online :D
 
I did read plenty of slides of many conferences though.
@Ell Porn too.
 
Ell
I think I might go through the chapters in a different order with him
> my brother
 
@Ell I’d suggest not bothering with it, not that I have an alternative though
 
Ell
Oh wait, that backs up your point :V
 
6:47 PM
@Ell You didn't specify his age :p
 
Ell
Haha
He is older
But regardless watching porn with him is not my thing :P
 
@Ell Boycott "Learn Python The Hard Way" because its author seriously wrote this
 
@Ell I can understand that much ^_^
 
Ell
@milleniumbug oh man :/
 
@milleniumbug Ooooh, I remember that one :o
 
Ell
6:52 PM
I've just realised there is a Python tutorial on the website >.<
Maybe I'll recommend that to him
 
Guess I'll go play Pokémon Go outside.
 
nwp
maybe bring a podcast along
 
I guess I really don't like watching talks or listening to people talking .____.
Well, except when I'm in the same room.
 
Ell
Hmm a byte of Python appears okay at first glance
 
I have some money to splash, how do you guys feel about a shop.lenovo.com/se/sv/laptops/thinkpad/t-series/t470s
 
7:06 PM
@CaptainGiraffe you can get spyware for much less
as years go by it’s becoming clearer that the legacy of Haskell will be to have taught a generation of programmers to spell 'map' with an 'f'
 
nwp
@CaptainGiraffe I would not buy a laptop with only 4 or 8 GB RAM or 2 cores.
 
@nwp Why would you want more than 8 GB on a laptop?
 
nwp
@fredoverflow because I want to be able to compile clang
 
Why would you want to compile clang on a laptop (or at all)?
 
nwp
I compile it on a laptop it is the device with the most performance I have. If I had a proper desktop I wouldn't buy a laptop and just go with desktop + phone.
And I compile it because I need it to make a compiler for a language I sort of made up ... which I should be working on ...
 
7:20 PM
@nwp Did you catch rightfolditis?
 
nwp
no, I need it to free myself from my stupid uni
but it wasn't a smart decision
turns out making compilers is not easy, not even when you let clang do almost everything
 
You plan to quit university to work on compilers?
 
sorry to intervene.. compiler jobs are rare aren't they?
 
nwp
no, I plan on making a compiler for my ... final work which should give me a degree
 
what kind of degree?
 
nwp
7:27 PM
the equivalent of a master in CS
 
oh, that's what i have already, though the thesis is meh. working on it right now to at least hand in a proper version to my advisor who helps me so much
 
nwp
I took the scenic route. Would not recommend.
 
scenic?
 
nwp
I did way too many courses that were not relevant to the degree.
 
@nwp I'm getting the 24GB option, the i7 option and the 3x3cell extra batteries option
 
@CaptainGiraffe have you thought about getting a proper P51? with adequate cooling and a quadro. depends on the tasks though. i feel the T's are overpriced for their performance
 
@iksemyonov Apologies for my Ignorance, all I see is a neat fighter aeroplane.
 
thinkpad p50 or p51 (skylake or kabylake)
 
My current thinkpad is a model 2007, it has served me well.
a t60.
 
7:36 PM
@iksemyonov Thanks.
 
it has dual fans as opposed to most if not all other thinkpad's, and a real H quadcore i7 CPU
not the ULV thing
but, it's heavy,, expensive, and 15.6. there even is a 17" counterpart - p70/71
 
I don't care for luggable, I need easy carry on stuff.
I cuoldn't find anything on battery life.
 
hmm, yeah, given the quad-core CPU..
 
I understand a gpu destroys battery life, why would i5 -> i7 be worrysome?
 
because it's H vs U - desktop quad-core vs ultra-low-voltage dual-core
like 15W vs 45W
 
7:42 PM
thanks again.
 
battery life traditionally is strong on Fujitsu, they have e.g. the Celsius workstation
but it's.. i guess it's expensive and hard to find. just explore the Fujitsu model range
 
I'm looking for a 32-core laptop with 256 GB of ram and a battery life of 16 hours load and 48 hours idle.
 
we have one, with Ivy Bridge, a DTR machine. rock solid.
 
nwp
@Mysticial for no more than 500US$
 
I'm pretty set on a lenovo T, maybe a P.
 
7:44 PM
@nwp It also needs to be a 17in. with 1080 screen. And must not weigh more than 6 lbs.
 
@nwp I'm on an about $3k budget.
 
@Mysticial lolololol. -81, thats impressive
 
that's ok for some P's
 
nwp
@CaptainGiraffe you could compare with them before you decide
 
8:03 PM
His best release in a while *-*
 
Hi
I am trying to run a .cpp file on windows
 
You fool!
 
Ven
poor soul
also hi @Morwenn
 
Oh, hey @Ven :D
 
run a cpp file lol
 
8:12 PM
how can I do?
 
Ven
run faster
preferably away from the sea plus plus
 
@Ven Your new avatar is sexy.
 
Ven
and so am I.
 
I am googling it but I only find unix related stuff
and not for windows
 
Ven
at least if you don't see me you might believe I am.
 
8:14 PM
@Ven Eh, feeling sexy is already cool :D
 
Ven
x)
 
do I have to use cmd.exe?
 
Ven
@neoDev this room isn't a support room I'm afraid
 
ok sorry
 
Ven
you'll get better answers trying the room dedicated to this, asking on SO, or getting a tutorial.
 
8:17 PM
@nwp I just ordered the T470s
 
nwp
@CaptainGiraffe name it Arni
 
@nwp 24GB ram, the 1TB ssd, the i7, extra batteries, nothing much really =)
@nwp All my laptops have been named Sheila btw =) Would Arno work?
 
nwp
@CaptainGiraffe I suppose. It reminded me of terminator. I wonder if they will release a T800 some day.
 
@nwp I think they will, with the same specs as the original =)
 
@Ell it's a mystery
 
user1804599
8:37 PM
Aaah implementing polymorphism
 
user1804599
I'm so excited
 
user1804599
And I just can't hide it
 
user1804599
And now you fuckers are stuck with that song in your heads :trollface:
 
Ven
I'm immune to that, I grew up with siblings.
 
Which song?
 
Ven
8:40 PM
> I'm so excited
> And I just can't hide it
 
Looks like I don't know the song.
 
Ven
bah, I lost time to pick a good timestamp in the video.
 
I'm through the chorus and can honestly say I never ever listened to that song .____.
Maybe I just don't remember.
 
@jaggedSpire boop /cc @Morwenn
 
nwp
8:46 PM
apparently you were never stuck in a car with radio when you were a child
 
Aw :3
@nwp My father listened to jazz and classical music, and I don't even remember what my mother used to listen to. I guess that she was less into music than my father.
 
@Servy We haven't done a great job communicating here, but the internal perception is emphatically not that it's a huge success and everything is great. We want to be careful not to publicly crap all over our own product and the work of our teammates, but we definitely realize it needs some improving and we should come out with some updates on the roadmap soon. — David Fullerton ♦ 16 mins ago
^^ IOW, SE publicly crapped all over their own product and the work of their teammates.
 
nwp
@Mysticial oh noes, I listened to too much SO podcast and actually recognize the name and now my brain prefixes it with "VP of engineering" in joels voice
I'm not even sure what VP means, probably not Vice President
 
VP stands for Van Proust.
 
9:01 PM
@Ven Wow. That's a start.
 
nwp
I loved PoE for a while, but I could never enjoy it fully because my laptop at the time couldn't run it properly.
and now linux -_-
 
@Ven Still baffling that it's nothing more than a video. And basically saying "You can pay for minor perks, so that explains it all!" .
Oh. And hidden under a completely undiscoverable name "Nitro". I mean, perhaps as a gamer you are expected to click "Nitro" within 3s or something
PoE: Prince of Ersia
 
nwp
@sehe at least confuse it with Pillars of Eternity
 
Will do
 
@nwp I’m going to try that hopefully this week and I can’t say I’m looking forward to that
 
9:04 PM
I currently have this picture on my laptop lid
I need new candidates for my brand new t470.
 
nwp
@LucDanton Why hopefully do what you don't want to do?
It took a while to reduce my expectations enough to be ok with linux.
 
the hopeful part is making a new rig
 
9:37 PM
Is it ok if I don't do this one?
 
nwp
it does look a bit too creepy
 
user1804599
9:51 PM
Yay, polymorphism works.
 
user1804599
I'm extremely excited now.
 
Bye my love.
 
user1804599
@CaptainGiraffe Why is it cross-eyed?
 
user1804599
I've never seen a cross-eyed penguin.
 
@rightfold You need to study penguin geometry. It even flies straight.
 
10:30 PM
UK government: "Leave means leave." EU agencies: "Okay we're leaving." UK government: "We don't accept that leave… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/853961459591720960
 
11:01 PM
@Borgleader I just feel sorry for the guy
 
pigs fly 2
only if they learn to paraglide
 
11:26 PM
@Borgleader That's can't be real...
 

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