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3:02 PM
@DaveRandom Fuck that's annoying
happy what?
tell me
TELL ME
 
a happy, like a hippie
 
A happy empty string
Most empty strings are not happy
 
Empty strings are sad
 
what if you're defining a new string variable?
 
not sure if I should also move transforming methods in Reminder (translateVerbs/Pronouns) to an extra class in brill tagger or just go with the easy way
 
3:08 PM
@LeviMorrison for this issue does this foot the bill? Don't mind the html, lifted it from the site as is... did some test in ie (brings up the usual prompt, but works)
 
@iroegbu What do you mean it brings up the usual prompt?
 
@Tiffany so what did your temp developper decided? alot of if's alot of else if's?
 
@Naruto he's not here today. Should be here tomorrow. I sent him the code snippet that @DaveRandom wrote though.
 
@LeviMorrison this
there might be a way to hide that though... I don't think so
 
@iroegbu Does that popup also appear when you use the Clipboard API?
 
3:19 PM
I really hate this npm and node shit, it's a fucking nightmare
 
Hey Sherlock!
> do smth useful and point me to the right forum ! – Paul Bernhard Wagner 2 mins ago
:P
 
I'm upgrading our form's recaptcha to recaptcha v2. Fun times.
 
o/
 
@Tiffany rerecaptcha, presumably?
 
3:31 PM
@DaveRandom My sarcasm detector is broke.
 
:p
 
@DaveRandom our original implementation was recaptcha before it was acquired by google. It's using a php plugin that was written by the original creators. I have to integrate the new recaptcha in place of it. Unfamiliar with all of it, but after three days of beating my head in with documentation, I think I understand it.
 
@Tiffany never used it, but wasn't it acquired by Google in like the 1940s?
 
@DaveRandom it was a long ass time ago, yes. We went live with our site in uh... 2011?
2012 maybe...
we're due for a redesign...
nearly 2000 fucking pages of content >.<
 
@PeeHaa that can't be real? :D
 
3:43 PM
We've accumulated a lot of shit. We're webpage hoarders.
 
@Naruto CLearly you are new here
 
no I'm not :(
 
@Jimbo Did you try Yarn?
 
Anonymous
unreal
 
3:57 PM
Now that's a fun game
Install it @JayIsTooCommon
:P
It's free \o/
 
Anonymous
it looks like it's free for a reason ;)
 
I love the "0 down vote favorite" prefix in the title
 
PeeHaa
PeeHaa
41.2k
16:57
ikr
 
lol
 
Anonymous
O.o
 
4:00 PM
@DaveRandom Maybe we should update the thing to say 8 downvote
hahahaha @Jimbo you're such a fucker :P
 
flag
favourite
hide
permalink
definitely
 
@PeeHaa :D
 
@DaveRandom send upload… lol
 
I did it but some other bastard downvoted it
 
Fixed it already
/me stops trolling the user now before it even escalates even more
 
4:03 PM
I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because you are a Laravel developer. — Jimbo 3 mins ago
 
chuckles
 
It's sooooooo hard to not bite when people pour crap like that
 
Anonymous
I just struggle to understand how someone lacks that much logic
 
4:05 PM
for my next lolz I'm going to change my screen name to "Astley" and follow this guy around the site commenting on the same stuff
 
someone suggest more words ...
 
OMFG
THAT IS FANTASTIC
 
Anonymous
@DaveRandom please. pleeeaasee.
 
DO IT
Is it just margins or also lack of interest / votes?
 
@JoeWatkins I don't know if more words are required, as such, it's pretty clear. However some stats on how that would have affected historical 50% RFCs would be good.
i.e. how many that passed would have failed
and a look at which ones those are
 
4:07 PM
@JoeWatkins also is this written with a recent rfc in mind
Not that you should add it. Just bicurious
 
well, an RFC was accepted the other day by a 50%+1 margin (very very narrrow), merged into mainline and then unilaterally reverted by the author because he thought it was poor ...
 
I hope that was that pdo crap
 
@JoeWatkins hmm?
@PeeHaa yeah, I do too
 
/me tries to find it again
 
it was, but it should not have been accepted in the first place
 
4:08 PM
I agree 100%
 
@JoeWatkins bullshit is bullshit^^
 
A minimum turnout might also be good, although that's possibly trickier to implement because it's more subjective
 
yeah but reverting the merge is a different issue, I'm not sure why they have karma to do that, I don't know who they are ... but we could have stopped it at the first hurdle by having decent standards
 
@JoeWatkins As I see it the thing went through without any discussion (yes I blame myself for that, but internals is scary) and just people not thinking it rhough in general
@JoeWatkins I'm torn btw about your rfc
 
@PeeHaa which one?
 
4:10 PM
@bwoebi About the super majority for all the things
 
@PeeHaa Where's that RFC?
 
Anonymous
@bwoebi Bob... come on now..
 
On one hand it's great because it stops shit, but on the other hand...
I'll just wait for @DaveRandom to build the list of rfcs affected
 
ugh, fine
 
Let me chat transcript it for you
 
4:11 PM
yeah let's look at that @DaveRandom
 
@PeeHaa ah :-)
 
:-)
 
@JoeWatkins Jeeves has a bunch of code I can lift to script it pretty quickly I think
 
Anonymous
@PeeHaa on the other hand... You wanted Trump to win.
 
That's that slowcode though :P
@JayIsTooCommon I didn't care. I don't even know where that usa thing is on the map
 
4:13 PM
the code isn't slow, only wiki.php.net, nothing I can do about that no matter how we do it
 
@JoeWatkins I vote for applying that retrospectively if it passes and renaming PHP 7 to PHP 6.
 
Anonymous
lol
 
@bwoebi lol
 
@bwoebi ha
 
@bwoebi A single error handler like Loop seems more appropriate. Looks like @kelunik may have come to this conclusion as well.
 
4:13 PM
@DaveRandom You're just not trying hard enough
 
oh right, I forgot you can reduce server loads with mental focus and positive energy
 
Anonymous
@DaveRandom I can fix it for you if you want...
 
@DaveRandom Happy thoughts always help
 
I will get out some aromatherapy candles
 
@bwoebi Only if we skip PHP 7 then, because ... and continue with PHP 8.
 
4:20 PM
can we skip 9 to 10 just like windows? :p
 
php.next should be called PHP One
 
@PeeHaa My boss and supervisor got me a book -- What to Say When You Talk to Your Self
 
it's too hard to reason that we need a lower limit, I think we do, but I don't know what it should be, and can't justify it with words
 
I have self-esteem issues
 
even with a tiny number of votes (10), a super majority is a clear win ... I'd be uncomfortable if something got in with so few votes, but you couldn't say that it didn't have clear support ...
under 10 and I would say that there wasn't enough justification for moving from discussion to voting stage ...
but 10 is just a number I picked from the air ...
I think we can leave this for another RFC whatever, right ?
 
4:27 PM
@JoeWatkins If there are just a few votes it's usually that people just don't care. If we want more votes there, we need some reason for people to vote.
 
Supermajority with at least 12 votes? Twelve is arbitrary like 10 but evenly divisible by 3.
 
that's good thinking
it's hard to give people a reason to vote without making threats about taking away karma ... I don't want to do that ...
 
@kelunik If 12 people don't care enough to vote that's reason enough to not let it pass anyway ^_^
 
Does anyone know what setting I have forgotten to configure if xdebug in a VM is connecting to PHPStorm on my host machine, but the breakpoints aren't working and PHPStorm is unable to go to the current line of execution? I have path mappings set up.....
@LeviMorrison That gets into stupid territory though, where you have scenarios where votes aren't going to pass, except if some more people vote, even if they vote no.
 
@Tiffany Does it help? :P
 
4:32 PM
@JoeWatkins this is the thing though, there are also no really clear rules on who can vote for what.
 
@PeeHaa to an extent. I need to finish reading it.
 
I, for example, probably shouldn't be able to vote on things concerning e.g. ABI
 
@DaveRandom well I think that's good in some ways, if we are going to get into saying that you need to be specially qualified to vote on some things, then there are about 6 people who can vote on anything to do with /Zend
 
Anyone here using a master/slave db setup with writes going to master and reads going to slaves? Curious about what strategies people are using to select servers. (Ideally I want to know at the start of the request, but am currently switching connections on the first write)
 
@DaveRandom Just that we never have votes about ABI itself
only C API sometimes (and these are usually passing)
 
4:34 PM
@Danack I know that but it's something I'd be willing to accept personally.
 
I actually hadn't thought of that Dan
can you verbalize why you're willing to accept that Levi ?
 
It's an edge case that is unlikely to matter that much.
 
@bwoebi I use that only as an example of something about which I do not know enough to have an informed opinion
 
you wouldn't really do that would you ?? just cast a vote, you would surely try to find out what you were voting for first, right ?
@LeviMorrison acceptable, yeah
 
I like to think I am fairly responsible with my voting powers but I don't know if everyone else is. But like you say @JoeWatkins it's hard to create good metrics to define rules
@JoeWatkins well no, I wouldn't and don't
 
4:36 PM
I've never pushed for Zend karma because literally everything I'd want to contribute there I want a code review on anyway.
 
we have to assume good intentions, it's the only reasonable thing to do ...
 
fair
 
I'd be fine with people with Zend karma having more weight to the vote on one condition: we do an audit on who has it.
 
@LeviMorrison That edge case can be prevented by automatically adding as many negative votes as possible with it still passing if that happens. So something with 9 votes for and zero against would still pass, as it would just get four imaginary no votes.
 
Mostly I think having Zend karma should mean that you are up-to-date on the current engine and can peer review patches that go in there.
And let's be honest: does anyone think that Zeev (not trying to pick on him specifically, there are older contributors who aren't active in code anymore) could seriously peer review and audit Zend PR's and patches?
I'm definitely not qualified to do that myself either, so it's not even self-serving ^_^
 
4:41 PM
I'm actually not sure about zeev Levi ... also, I feel like I'm qualified to do that, but still make mistakes ... dmitry makes mistakes too ...
I've seen him directly respond to stuff that makes me think he knows more than is apparent ...
he's just not into code
 
@JoeWatkins I didn't mean that mistakes aren't allowed ^_^
I just think people who work enough on translations to get voting power, or someone who wrote an RFC that didn't even pass but still has voting power shouldn't have the same weight as some other, such as Nikita, Bob, Joe, Dmitry and so on.
Not exactly sure how to balance that.
One way is to increase required majority so that anyone who opposes features has more power. Historically it's mostly the main contributors voting no.
@kelunik That could work /cc @Danack
 
Why don't we divide voters into groups, and give some groups more weight than others. I heard this is a good strategy
 
@LeviMorrison That's risky. Suddenly people vote no if there's already a majority just to get more power. :P
 
@Leigh Definitely agree here. Let's base them on gender, race, and religion. That should do it, right?
 
@Leigh I thought about that, too. Your power is the power of the most powerful group you belong to.
 
4:46 PM
@kelunik I'm fine with it. At this stage in PHP's lifetime especially our default should be "no".
 
Your voting choice shouldn't have any side-effects other than your voting choice.
 
it should be ... but notice we all make off the cuff remarks about people (like Stas) for following through and actually voting no unless there really good reasoning, or really good feature ...
 
Is it time for more dramatic Internals and voting?
 
it's difficult to have such noble intentions when the RFC belongs to yourself @Levi
 
I voted no on one of my RFCs before :D
 
4:50 PM
Every time I vote "no", I get people breathing down my neck demanding I explain myself. It's a strong reason why I don't vote often even on RFCs I know enough to have a considered understanding and opinion on.
 
that's sad ... but I'm pretty sure I've done some of the breathing down your neck in the past ...
we're now considering many different problems
 
Do we even have "a voting problem", if so what is it? (that's a more "ponder at your leisure" question than asking here and now)
 
what I want to start with is just raise the bar for acceptance, we should do something about all this other stuff ... can raising the bar make things worse for anyone is what I want to know ? can it make it more difficult to solve these other problems ?
 
Wes
\o
 
4:55 PM
\o
 
@salathe you opened with one, right ?
 
@JoeWatkins I don't know, did I. :P
 
I think that's a problem, one that probably has a solution ...
 
That's more a "Peter doesn't like being asked questions", than a systemic issue in the voting process.
The vast, vast majority of times I don't vote is because "the votes align with my choice anyway". :)
Anyway as nice as this is, I have to hop away for a while.
 
lata
people are not very inventive with voting choices, maybe one solution to the problem that you never know why people are voting one way or another is just to encourage people to be more creative when creating the vote
Yes or No Because X, No because Y, No because Z, No because Other
if someone is voting yes, it's pretty obviously because they agree with enough of the RFC to accept it ... so that doesn't really need explaining most of the time, but it is frustrating not to know why people are voting no ...
one of the reasons I don't vote on stuff, or reply to internals threads, is because someone else already reasoned as I would have (or the vote is going my way), no point repeating yourself ... but if then the vote came along and the reasons given for objection during discussion were voting options, we would have clearer outcomes ...
one person might object during discussion, but 10 may agree with them silently ...
 
5:07 PM
@JoeWatkins I appreciate that. Having (required) reasons right in the voting panel would be cool.
 
we wouldn't have to require them, suggesting them in the template would probably be enough
 
@kelunik Hi
 
o/
 
I have one suggestion:
$functor = null
function pipe(Promise $promise, callable $functor = null): Promise
right now I am piping some promises and writhing like this:
"pseodo code"
return \Amp\pipe(Promise, function($result)
{
return $result;
});
 
@kivlara That just returns another promise that will be resolved the same as the original promise.
 
5:18 PM
@kivlara Why do you do that? Just return the promise directly?
 
@Trowski @kelunik OMG, need to go to sleep ... :)
Thank you
Sorry for disturb
 
5:35 PM
@JoeWatkins You left out the RFC link in your email.
 
@NikiC yep. I added to it in 7.2 >.>
 
@Trowski terrible ...
read that multiple times
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier damn, it is indeed on my calendar. I totes forgot :|
 
@JoeWatkins Sounds like something I would do as well :-D
 
the guy reverted the revert that shouldn't have been merged
how is this happening ...
reverted the revert of the commit that shouldn't have been merged ...
@Trowski did you get the link email ? (not sure why not showing on list)
 
5:49 PM
@JoeWatkins Nope.
 
The tag has just surpassed 1M questions
9
 
@Trowski hmm ... don't suppose you have any idea why I'm terrible, do you ?
 
You've displeased the mailing list, and now it only wishes to spite you?
 
@Machavity 950k duplicates? :)
Being optimistic, of course
 
@Trowski that could be it ...
 
5:53 PM
@Leigh There's a few good questions worth keeping in there. I think I was up to 14 at last count
 
it's probably going to come twice now ... I'm just going to back away from the computer ...
 
That one arrived instantaly… so I guess the first was just lost to the æther.
 
@JoeWatkins @PeeHaa here's the data for 7.2 and 7.1: gist.github.com/DaveRandom/cd5e5d66fb78ceb9a17903870a2f6622 the wiki is such a nightmare to parse that it's easier to just do it by hand :-/
I don't have time to do any more right now but I will later
(that's just the 50% RFCs btw, no point in including the 2/3 ones)
/me is out for a while
 
6:13 PM
I made an off by one error in an rfc ...
 
@JoeWatkins Thankfully it wasn't code and nothing imploded....
 
@JoeWatkins And here I thought PHP7 was a deliberate decision
4
 
Wes
user image
4
 
haha
 
IMO, 7 is the worst because there is no other way to read that.
 
6:39 PM
haha
 
@Wes I read 5 and 6 correctly.
 
@JoeWatkins I don't like that as it biases the voting. It makes it easier to vote yes, than to vote no.
 
@Wes I must be really ruined that I read everything except 7 correctly...
 
@Danack you could still have a straight no option
 
Wes
i read 2 and 4 correctly (and 7)
 
6:44 PM
also I'm not really sure I see the bias ?
 
Wes
Hey #LazyWeb; What big sites out there are using PHP 7?
 
@JoeWatkins even just by giving people options you make it more difficult to make a choice. If someone wants to vote yes, and there is one option that is easy, to vote - it takes zero time to think about it. When you want to vote no, and have to choose amongst which of the no options, it makes it slightly harder.
 
I think the general idea of having a minimum quorum for the RFC votes may have some drawbacks. When faced with a 5-0 vote, someone who doesn't agree with the RFC might prefer to not vote (so it won't reach the quorum) than voting "No"
This is not in the RFC but people mentioned it in the list
 
@Wes can't forget penisland.com
 
Wes
i can't believe they didn't notice it. they sure did that on purpose...
 
6:53 PM
@Danack I remain unconvinced
can I convince you that it might make it easier ... see what Peter said earlier, he sometimes doesn't vote no because he doesn't want people to breathe down his neck for reasons ...
 
Why not an optional comment box whether you vote yes or no?
 
@JoeWatkins If the real problem is that RFCs are slipping through then other ideas could improve the situation rather than changes in voting. I was thinking about proposing that opening of RFC voting needs to be announced before the vote is opened, which would help prevent chaos.
 
that's also a solution, but requires really hard work
 
@bwoebi where? I don't understand where you do the ZVLA_NULL
 
6:55 PM
Having a [VOTE CLOSING] reminder two days before the vote closes would also help.
Also, bugger, wrong book:
 
@NikiC before HANDLE_EXCEPTION() calls if there's a retval
 
example?
 
I just for the moment want to raise the bar, there are other things I think we'd all like to have the chance to change, and we'll come to them ...
 
Why would you need to null it out in that case?
 
@NikiC not now, only on phone now; will give you one in 2-3 hours
 
6:58 PM
@Danack while I think we should have clearer rules ... the security classification rfc was announced on voting, just because of the way the discussion was conducted ... and nobody could reasonably object to that ...
 
@bwoebi ok
 
mornings
 
@NikiC to have it defined. ZEND_HANDLE_EXCEPTION does not know whether exception has been thrown before or after retval has been set.
 
isn't out convention that ZEND_HANDLE_EXCEPTION doesn't touch retval?
 
I think it's okay to put an RFC on hold, but we don't have that as a rule either .... while people should object during discussion, they (and we) do not ... for some reason ...
 
6:59 PM
Well, that's why it's leaking currently...
 
regardless, I would like clearer rules ... even though it was mostly my fault, the object types rfc has been quite messy ...
 
@NikiC see my leaking snippet from before // afk.
 
Evening
 
e'nin
 
I see hot discussion on list about voting
Nice to hear about that
But not clearly understand why all RFC need 2/3
Some of them are tiny changes not pumping up major or minor version at all
 
7:08 PM
nikic reminded me of possibly the best reason, that every time there is a very important RFC, the noise to signal ratio is increased massively by the debate about what constitutes a language change
 
If treating all changes the same as way why versioning with semver at all, why not version like browsers or ECMA or C or Ubuntu with periodical releases
 
What do our acceptance criteria have to do with semver?
It's orthogonal
 
tech vs politics
 
I have a zend_extension in which I am trying to systematically obtain a list of strings corresponding to all fixed strings in the op_array. I have implemented an op_array handler which loops through each opline, and for each znode_op, if the type is IS_CV or IS_CONST it tries to print out a string corresponding to the symbol name or constant string or what-have-you.

Problem is, there are a lot of strings it can't/won't print. I get the CV names, and I get the names of functions not in global scope as long as they are called with `INIT_FCALL` and not `INIT_FCALL_BY_NAME`. Would anyone ha
 
version ?
type may be a mask
 
7:11 PM
I mean why releasing PHP 7.2 what dictates tgat it is not PHP 8
 
I don't understand
 
If all releases gave important or very important changes
You want all RFC tobe equal like equal changes
Important and very important to be treated the same way
 
there's no appreciable difference
both changes, introducing a new thing and changing an old thing have exactly the same chance of requiring us to expend resources on them - they both might break something ... they both require the same kind of maintenance in the future ...
what's the difference ?
 
Wait there are no 7.2.x releases right now I've messed up I think
 
@Dereleased I have recently played with the very same hook. :) And this is how I'm printing each opcode. I'm also listing the literals for the oparray
 
7:16 PM
If both may have implications wgat describes when change requires pumping up major number in version?
 
sorry, I don't understand this connection with versioning
 
Ok maybe I just am bullshitting right now
It happens
 
@pmmaga Reading now...
 
missing some stuff ...
phpdbg has an opline printer, so does vld (not sure if vld works for 7 yet though) ...
and this
 
7:28 PM
@pmmaga Mind if I drag you into a private room to discuss some of this?
 
is there anyone with knowledge of Wordpress?
 
@JoeWatkins I know, I'm using my extension with phpdbg, but I'm trying not to modify it, so that I can just maintain my extension and not have to patch a SAPI every time a new version I want comes out
 
I meant to just look there for inspiration ...
and to see how it's done correctly ;)
 
@JoeWatkins I did, and that's part of what throws me off -- I feel I'm doing the same things, but maybe I'm on an earlier pass and certain things aren't resolved yet?
@pmmaga I implemented your bit as a second round in my handler and it outputs nothing
 
show me code
 
7:31 PM
@JoeWatkins Really nice!
@Dereleased Yeah, can we see it somewhere?
 
I'm making a room for it
 
it's okay to talk about this stuff in here, they are all used to constant internals noise ...
 
I know, but I would need to dump a lot of source... well, not so much, but enough that it'd be pretty annoying
 
gist/pastebin
 
but I can't force you to go to the other room
 
7:33 PM
I'm stretched pretty thin, post some code, I'll look at it when I got a minute ...
 
@Dereleased why not just go through the literals + var name table instead?
 
Does anyone here just unit test their application and domain layers but not infrastructure? I'm starting to think unit testing infrastructure isn't worth the time it takes to write the tests and instead just integration test them
 
evenin\
 
@NikiC Possible answers: (a) because I barely have any idea what I'm doing. (b) I need these strings to correspond to where they occur in op_array dump. Essentially, I want to be able to take an op_array dump, and still know the value of strings longer than 18-20 chars
 
I find unit testing third party libs to be painful at times because they sometimes behave in unexpected ways which you wouldn't know of unless you looked deep into the code. Some third party stuff has bad documentation that's hard to follow so even if your unit tests cover everything it's hard to be 100% sure. I don't want to write unit tests, they pass, I commit to VC and then when integration testing some weird exceptions are thrown from the third party lib
 
7:44 PM
evenin tereško \
 
@pmmaga dumps in the other room
 
o/
 
@NikiC @JoeWatkins @pmmaga Pastes:
Zend_Extension relevant source: http://pastebin.com/WrS3yK9W
Sample Input PHP File: http://pastebin.com/V2j7WQqV (essentially garbage)
Output from the combination of the two above: http://pastebin.com/6Ta1rqg4
 
Don't we have a utf8 -> punycode thing in php?
We do have the other way around, but I cannot find ^
 
7:49 PM
@Dereleased Remind me please, does the op array handler work on ct or rt op arrays?
 
ct
 
@Dereleased okay, then that's your bug
You're accessing constants in rt layout
 
oh yeah, but only in sla_get_op_strval i think
 
Are there macros for compile time constants?
I'm just gonna try a thing
 
7:55 PM
!!lxr CT_CONSTANT
 
[ /master/Zend/zend_compile.h#603 ] `# define CT_CONSTANT(node) `
 
yeah, I found it
 
line #35, type may be a mask
loop at #52, no handling for double, or bool
 
zend_op_array *active_op_array;
active_op_array = op_array;

// ...

zval *lit = CT_CONSTANT(*op);
now I'm getting all of them it looks like on round 1
I used RT_CONSTANT because of phpdbg, didn't realize the distinction. That might be all I need here.
I'll come up with a data structure to describe this... thanks again!
 

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