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2:00 PM
So consider yourself lucky with a dirty yet comfy (?) couch
 
> On my machine, (a 3GHz i7 MacBook Pro) type-checking a single namespace takes 2 minutes.
Ouch
 
Ask @Ell about comfy. He slept there.
 
@Jefffrey Aha, macbook. Problem is localized.
 
Or his brother.
Myself, I've only used it for sex. :P
 
user406009
@CatPlusPlus Every sufficiently strong type system has flaws. Godel's incompleteness theorem.
 
2:00 PM
@Lalaland Yes, so?
 
user406009
It's just in dynamic languages you are allowed to bypass those flaws and create untypable functions.
 
Xeo
@CatPlusPlus Doesn't seem like it
 
user406009
Where in purely statically typed languages, you aren't allowed to take those shortcuts.
 
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes me brother slept on the bed, I were on the floor. Thanks again <3 you're always welcome to sleep at mine :D
 
> me brother
 
2:01 PM
@LucDanton well i would try to use whichever language uses the least libraries, thats what im trying to find. However I'm obviously willing to use anything native to the OS
 
@Pigman168 Then pick your OS.
 
mac
 
user1804599
Lambda calculus doesn't use libraries.
 
You're too focused on this "the least libraries" bullshit and not enough on doing what you want.
 
user406009
Pure lambda calculus can't do any input or output.
 
user406009
2:03 PM
And IO is the sole reason for computing.
 
Ell
Okay apparently I can't set an alias in /etc/hosts :/
 
@Pigman168 Then go read about GUIs on a Mac.
 
@Lalaland Every function is typeable, even if it's any -> any
 
user406009
(Unless of course you are using your computer as a space heater)
 
2:03 PM
Which is what gradual typing default should be
 
user1804599
@Lalaland -1 for insufficiently advanced optimising compiler.
 
@Lalaland Is all of that relevant?
 
user406009
@CatPlusPlus Sure, any -> any is a type, but it's probably not the right type for that function.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes lol and what if "least libraries bullshit" is what i want?
 
What's "right type"
 
2:06 PM
@Pigman168 Then you don't want to make GUIs. You want to make space heaters, as Lalaland said.
 
You can do inference, but you can just as well fall back to fully dynamic types
 
user406009
The right type is the type that has the invariants you care about.
 
user406009
For example, it would be cool if get-in was typed properly so as to resolve to the correct type for the result.
 
Runtime type doesn't go away
 
user1804599
2:07 PM
Remove get-in and introduce proper lenses.
 
user1804599
Much more generic.
 
user406009
@Elyse Yes, that's what I am saying.
 
This not an existential where you throw out everything except the most basic interface
 
user406009
When you have a gradual typing system, you are encouraged to take shortcuts.
 
user406009
2:08 PM
Shortcuts which eventually don't type well.
 
Yes, something that doesn't type in a static system won't type in a static system
Good job
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Written in Objective-C, might as well learn C
 
That doesn't mean it's a flaw in gradual typing
"Gradual" is not a word picked at random here
 
user1804599
Sacrificing code succinctness in turn for automatic bug detection is worth it.
 
It detects a very narrow class of trivial bugs
Don't overglorify it
 
2:10 PM
future<T>::get() says it has valid() == false as post-condition. I guess the post-conditions do not apply if get() throws right? So valid() is not guaranteed to return false if an exception was stored in the promise rather than a value
 
@AndyProwl Why wouldn't they apply?
 
which makes little sense
 
It can set a flag and then throw, that's really not a problem, does it say that it doesn't apply when there's an exception?
 
@CatPlusPlus I think post-conditions are for when the function terminates successfully. Not sure
 
e.g. vec.push_back(foo); /* how did the size change? */
 
2:11 PM
I could not find a point in the Standard where it says when post-conditions apply
the problem is MSVC randomly returns valid() == true after .get-ing the future when an exception was thrown
 
Dunno standardese
 
(at least for futures returned by std::async())
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes @Lalaland @LucDanton this is kind of what im looking for: webopedia.com/FIG/PROG-LAN.gif
 
IOW this example quite consistently fails after a number of iterations varying from 1 to 2000
not sure if bug in stdlib implementation or bug in our code
workaround is easy but still
I'd like to know what's going on
 
> High level language
eh
 
2:14 PM
yea, its vague
but i guess C sounds like what i need
 
Does it really matter if it's a bug in stdlib? If your implementation does that then you need to work around it anyway
 
Yes, but I want to know
 
Then peek through the implementation
 
@Pigman168 'this' being what, pictures?
 
I'm not smart enough to figure out if the implementation is bug-free
 
2:16 PM
webricks everywhere
 
@CatPlusPlus The "Thirdy Party Code" section is not really core.typed specific
 
(I tried)
 
I would think it's a problem with any gradual typing system
 
@LucDanton an explanation of what language is closest to binary
 
You're assuming that you need 100% static check coverage
 
2:17 PM
@Pigman168 I don’t know of objective criteria to measure that distance. Anything else is fluff.
 
I'm not
 
Then it's not a problem
 
@LucDanton use your own, personal, totally subjective criteria :D
 
@Pigman168 No fluff allowed.
 
2:18 PM
:c
but its an opinion orientated question
 
@CatPlusPlus If I use any library call that does not gradual typing, then I either have to provide type annotations for the library calls or not give annotations to my functions
 
@LucDanton You have a lot of patience today
@Jefffrey No
 
If core.typed requires that then it's again a core.typed problem
Transitivity is not fundamentally required for gradual typing
 
zdar jak svina
 
2:19 PM
@CatPlusPlus How don't you require that if you want to have static type safety to a certain function?
 
@CatPlusPlus Does it seem so? In any case I’ve resigned myself to the fact that today’s sucky no matter what ever since morning, maybe that helps.
 
Going back to 100% coverage
 
Yes, I would require 100% coverage of the functions I annotate, and not 100% coverage of all functions in my program
If you don't have 100% coverage within the functions you annotate, then what's the point?
 
Uh, you get 100% coverage of the functions you annotate
It doesn't apply to function contents
 
No, because you said that if I use non-annotated functions within my annotate function, then everything should be fine according to the type checker.
 
2:21 PM
Why wouldn't it be?
 
The static type checker should of course check the body of the function I annotate
 
No it doesn't
 
Then what does it do?
 
It checks for annotated functions
That's what gradual typing is
 
@LucDanton do you have experience in assembly language by any chance?
 
2:22 PM
@CatPlusPlus What does it checks about them?
 
Unannotated functions are fully dynamically typed
@Jefffrey Uh the interface boundary, i.e. the calls to it
What else
 
@Pigman168 not really
 
@CatPlusPlus Interface boundary? What do you mean?
 
I said what I mean in the same fucking sentence
 
@LucDanton do you consider it to be difficult compared to C++?
 
2:23 PM
def fun(x : int) -> int:
    return "ok"
 
It takes an int and returns an int — that's what's checked
 
Would that type check?
 
Ok, would the following type check?
def fun(x : int) -> int:
    return non_annotated_function(x)
?
 
2:24 PM
@Pigman168 Possibly not. But it’s much more unforgiving so that can be a roadblock. It’s also not suitable for (most) software development.
 
The return type of unannotated function will be a dynamic 'any' type
 
@LucDanton oh i see x2
 
Are we clear that libraries that don't do type annotation, have non-annotated functions?
 
You need to coerce to whatever type you want, and then it'll fail at runtime if coercion is undoable
I'm not sure what's so difficult to understand
 
If so, that means that I can't use any functions from those libraries
 
2:25 PM
No
def foo():
   return "whatever"

def bar(a : int) -> int:
   foo()
   return 42

def baz(a : int) -> int:
   x = foo()
   return int(x)
All of this type checks fine
 
Thank you everyone for all your input! I will cry in a corner for 48h to then conclude that I'm too incapable to program anything useful
 
@CatPlusPlus That means that I would have to give annotations to those functions myself
 
No
Well, yes if you want to have static checks
 
@CatPlusPlus YES!
 
But they're not necessary to use them from statically checked functions
Again, transitivity is not a fundamental required thing for gradual typing
 
2:27 PM
Doesn't gradual typing imply optional static type checking?
So of course those would be static checks
 
It implies gradual typing
 
That's obviously not useful
 
I'm done with this, you can reread if you want
No it's not obviously not useful
god
 
Fine
@Pigman168 That's a step forward!
 
@Pigman168 That's wrong, but if you know the answer already, why are you here?
 
user1804599
2:35 PM
 
@Pigman168 "Binary" as a language is something that describes numbers, not programs.
Again, you don't quite know what you want, because you keep seeking after things you can only describe in the vaguest of ways.
 
Where do you get all that patience? It began like an hour ago and you still haven't quit
 
don't you guys have work
 
Hence the patience.
 
user406009
@Mr.kbok Timezones make a difference.
 
Ell
2:44 PM
3 hours till the competition and I haven't installed clang yet
 
user406009
What competition?
 
Ell
coding compeition, bloomberg uk one
 
@Lalaland yes, let’s go with that
 
trying hard to make a clang pun
 
@Morwenn What are you implying? This thing going on for about 1 hour is an escape from actual work?
 
2:44 PM
you... clang to the prize?
doesn't work
 
@Rerito That's indeed what I'm implying :p
 
Ell
oh hey I just realised I can bring a keyboard to the comp
 
@Ell would be rather hard to code without one
 
now you just need to find something to plug it into!
 
Ell
:D
I wonder how much performance differs for virtualbox
for compiling stuff
hopefully not much
 
user406009
2:51 PM
For a coding competition it won't matter.
 
user406009
You aren't compiling anything large.
 
I remember something about compilers running in dosbox taking ages to compile tiny programs but that's all I remember and is not relevant here
 
user406009
I think it was around a 2-3x slowdown in general last time I used virtualbox.
 
Ell
@Lalaland yeah was just curious
 
-6
Q: how to make windows application in C# for stock trading

Suyog PatilI dont know c# programming. How make an application in windows for connection my broker API and fetch stock data. After that do the calculation on it and create signal. This signals are converted to order and send to broker application using their API.

 
Ell
2:53 PM
2-3x? that can't be right surely :O
 
@Mysticial this ones for you mate
 
@Borgleader noooble
I expected the CLR GC to be complex but I did not expect it to be this complex
half a chapter in and I'm already like o.o
 
If you're trying to use C# in Windows to do HFT, then you're screwed. Actually, no - please proceed so we can take all your money. — Mysticial 11 secs ago
 
user406009
@Mysticial Why would Windows and C# be such a bad choice?
 
user406009
Latency issues due to GC?
 

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