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user895378
00:00
I watched it happen and thought, "Someone should tell Sara she can edit messages"
@Sara you know you can edit messages, right?
using s/foo/bar/ should edit the message
@PaulCrovella The W3C has this awesome IRC bot that marks up discussions
AND IT ACCEPTS SED COMMANDS
that's awesome
It records IRC conversions and marks up meeting minutes
That page doesn't mention the s/// support but I assure you it supports it
00:13
@NikiC Totally unrelated to anything:
user895378
@PaulCrovella that would be sweet
"Why should a constructor throw an exception if it fails, returning null is totally sensible"....
user895378
wat
OK, wow
@Andrea ah, it's scribe.perl
00:19
someone voting on Scalar Type Hints only has PEAR karma
and they're voting Yes
@PaulCrovella Ah! Yes, that
Hello everyone I have a quick question.
What is the term for a service that allows users to donate to other users?
@rdlowrey consider that a feature request for that chat thing you're involved in, if it doesn't already do it
$mf = new MessageFormatter('en_US', '{this was made intentionally incorrect}');
if ($mf === null) {
    echo "Surprise!";
}
00:21
Is it called money transferring or money transmitting?
I'm curious of how Youtube allows users to donate to content creators.
I just don't know what the term is called.
Or what to search on Google.
@Somnibyte In terms of content creators, it would be 'subscription' or 'donation'.
user895378
@PaulCrovella I totally already posted it as a feature request in that chat lol
@Danack I see.
@Danack Do you personally know of any subscription php scripts?
Or API's>
?*
Someone has to love those people who thought that setwas a good name for a command that shows an environmental variables value (or manipulates it if you type the wrong char) ;)
@Somnibyte use PayPal :p
00:23
No. I'd suggest searching for 'twitch subscription service' as most twitch streamers will need one.
@Andrea Ah ok. See I was thinking about that, but then again, not everyone uses Paypal...
user895378
@Rangad Spoiler Alert: It's not their mothers.
@Andrea Actually wouldn't be allowed.....you're not allowed to do donations through paypal.
But then again you are correct, because Youtube uses Google wallet.
@Danack since when?
00:24
Thank you @Andrea and @Danack
user895378
@Danack So do I actually need to do $obj = new Thing; if (empty($obj)) { ... }
user895378
^ is that actually a thing in some of the built-in classes?
@rdlowrey Yes. That is obviously easier than using exceptions. Excuse me I need more beer.
user895378
WTF, Stas.
Hence - "This person votes."
@Andrea They may have changed it - but they have been very shitty to people asking for donations in the past: somethingawful.com/news/paypal-fiasco-summary
00:28
they're shitty to anyone they think might be running a scam
also, what? SA is hosted in New Orleans‽
hey guys im wondering how much session storage is too much. im pretty OCD when it comes to organization and I'm writing a web application for a game development studio. I'm wondering if a 3D array session is too much data performance wise. It's only used for the login/register script and it basically just holds all the data that the user submits so that if there is an error the info they entered gets saved
basically im wondering if this is overkill: $_SESSION['form_data']['errors']['first_name_error']
@Andrea Odd, thought they were somewhere out of the midwest where Lowtax is actually located.
@samrap If you're worried about it, start keeping metrics on average session size.
And then start profiling your code.
I'll wager that unless you're putting a few dozen kb of data into your sessions that they will make absolutely zero impact whatsoever on the performance of your application.
@samrap As Charles said, that's not much data - but why are you storing form validation data in the session?
@Danack Display of errors on next page load?
pretty much @Charles @Danack, the form action is a PHP script that redirects back to the login/register page if there is an error
00:33
Yeah...I guess.
so rather than making the user re-enter everything it saves it for them
but yea the data is nowhere near a few KB, just short strings of form data
Then don't even worry about it.
cool thanks. Should I at this point just put the script in the actual login page? that would eliminate the need for sessions altogether. i've just always heard it is bad practice
Oh yeah
the language spec needs return types doing
someone do that
@NikiC you removed hex, remove it from langspec
> If you like to use {} as the group symbols, i would not like it.

It hurts my fingers.
Valid argument....
62:31 - and still a week yet to go
@Rangad he also sent me a private email:
Dear sir, Please do not using {} , look at your keyboard.
can you see how different with () and {}

type () you will using your two fingers, but type {}, your little
finger will press them , two times.

This will hurt your little finger.
So, the wise guys design a better import solution,
wiki.haskell.org/Import
@Tyrael Sorry for being grumpy with you
/me looks at the keyboard
@Andrea oh right
00:48
English problems ;D ) is shift + 9 and } is altgr + 0, no real difference. It's no real argument anyway
@NikiC P.S.: the current description of numeric strings is wrong, have fun!
@marcio I'm not going to link it - but check his twitter feed....
/me thinks about not doing it...
@Andrea If it isn't too much effort ... :P
@Danack Please link his Twitter feed...
@NikiC Nah, is_numeric_string's algorithm isn't that bad if you use a pseudo-grammar probably
00:50
^ pleas
oh no, all explained
I found his twitter feed and suddenly feel... uncomforable
@NikiC Pretty sure this room has a rule against linking to stuff which would get people uninvited from conferences....
@Danack Yeah, just found it as well ^^
pleas sir, use another keyboard.
That looks surprisingly reasonable ;) Even if qwerty would annoy me.
00:56
I don't think this will hurt my little finger and BTW use Foo\Bar(Baz, Qux); looks too much like a function call :/
user895378
> Print screen taken, will hold you to your words.
user895378
@marcio ^ ZOMG VERBAL CONTRACT! VERBAL CONTRACT!!!!!
@marcio What keyboard do you use? I always get confused when visiting France ..... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AZERTY
well, I'm Brazilian, the keyboard layout is like this: commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/…
> They are genius. they know how to free people's fingers
01:01
@Danack huh?
ah, he didn't answered to the list
Wow, I never though about chinese keyboard layout issues until now.
BTW, one of the most complete guides about the PHP internal implementation is this one: php-internals.com/book
I don't think keyboards like that are actually used in China
^ enjoy, needless to say, I'm not sure if the thing is up to date xD
They type in pinyin
there's also Cangjie
I think that might be a Canjie keyboard
Yeah, it is
The Cangjie input method (Tsang-chieh input method, sometimes also Changjie, Cang Jie or ChongKit) is a system by which Chinese characters may be entered into a computer using a standard keyboard. Invented in 1976 by Chu Bong-Foo, the method is named after Cangjie (Tsang-chieh), the mythological inventor of the Chinese writing system; the name was suggested by Chiang Wei-kuo, then Defence Minister of Taiwan. Although the input method was initially based upon traditional Chinese characters, it has since been revamped so that Cangjie and the simplified Chinese character set can interact. In filenames...
01:08
@rdlowrey yay, hope I'll have some pull requests to do... he|she was not kidding.
user895378
@marcio sorry you've had a bit of an unfavorable reception for your first RFC ... I find value in it FWIW.
And I thought it was the lowest hanging fruit ever, anyway still more 2 weeks to go
people know what 'lowest hanging fruit' means
user895378
I think people are more combative about votes right now because of the epic scalar type struggle :)
such a simple and standard feature and yet so much people freaking out, that's madness.
at least for scalar type hints it's just justifiable...
nooo
it's not, 10 years discussing.
user895378
01:13
PHP ... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
welcome to politics
yet still more fun than contributing to other languages with cabals.
user895378
that moment when something you totally didn't think was going to work actually works
@rdlowrey what was it? :)
Ooh, yayyy
63:31
2/3+2
2 No votes to kill it
We has majority again :D
@rdlowrey usually that leaves me wondering how did I screw up my tests?
01:17
You know what I want more than scalar typehints? Have empty and isset behave the same (in terms of accepted arguments) ;D
Is it just me, or did Zeev vote Yes?
4
user895378
Oh you bastard.
@Andrea 1 no vote
@PaulCrovella no
1 No vote is like -2 Yes votes
Oh wait, yes, you're correct
My bad
2/3+1 :(
My math sucks when I'm tired
@Andrea that's still dangerous.
user895378
01:19
@Andrea I've been rewriting my http message parser for performance and I totally didn't expect the incremental body parsing to work for chunk-encoded entity bodies yet but it does.
1 No vote would kill it
@rdlowrey awesome
transfer-encoding: chunked was briefly the bane of my existence
user895378
I think at this point a vote flip in either direction would almost seal the deal. Would be tough to overcome the margin (barring retaliatory flippage).
@rdlowrey 6 days yet.
I just need to convince @LeviMorrison that declare() is actually the best thing evar
@rdlowrey actually no, there is so many inactive popsicle votes that it's quite imprevisible
If he flipped, that's (effectively) +3 Yes votes, so you have a +4 lead, so you need 3 No votes to kill it
Funny how PHP has taught me a lot about how supermajorities work :D
Oh yeah, maybe convince @Danack
user895378
01:22
uh oh, 63-31
hey @Danack, come here
@rdlowrey well it was 61:31 earlier it's not so bad
user895378
No, I meant "uh oh" in a good way :)
user895378
English. What's it really good for anyway.
01:23
to hurt little chinese fingers xD
user895378
lol
Well, English isn't good for programming
user895378
^ that was a literal lol.
In the current climate...would this have a chance (with a better test and assuming the patch is correct)? gist.github.com/anonymous/f3a5fbcdc6a0c02ae68a
01:24
Expressing virtually any natural language concept in a programming language is probably pretty difficult
@Rangad Looks good
can't see much objection
so for empty(1, 1, 1, 0); it's TRUE?
@Rangad no bc break?
@marcio empty() only takes one param atm
And we don't allow , exprs in empty()
also, god, Rebecca's Saturday is addictive
Well, if the one who brought it up on the list doesn't propose a rfc for that in the next few days, I'm gonna steal it (or talk to him first).
@Rangad did you write the patch?
01:27
Link them it/help them with the proposal
I'm sure they'd appreciate it
@Andrea I like it ^^
user895378
@PaulCrovella nothin'
Why compete when you can collaborate :)
the patch not the music
oh.
01:27
I'll do but not today. It's to late to write a semi formal email now
user895378
@Andrea You mean "Zeev's Yes Vote" ?
@rdlowrey No, that one was Friday
user895378
Dear god I'm now questioning all of the life decisions that led to me NOT starting a band and naming it Zeev's Yes Vote.
@rdlowrey do it
or call it Auryn and the Dependency Injectors
@Andrea yes
user895378
01:29
@Rangad seems useful
user895378
Zeev's Yes Vote == Sonic Death Monkey
My Little SQL and the Real Escaped Strings
bit of trivia: the song "High Fidelity" isn't used in the movie
Globals Register
catch_op Ketchup (now that one's obscure! :D)
Strict Types Equals Zero
all of these are shit names aren't they
user895378
01:32
High Fidelity is in my personal top 5 all time movies-I-watched-on-loop-at-university list for sure.
user895378
@Andrea I like this one
@rdlowrey ^^
Zend and the Parsed Parameters
user895378
lol
user895378
Tomorrow we need to make #PhpBandNames a thing.
Tomorrow? More like RIGHT NOW
user895378
01:34
Not enough users online to do it tonight :)
ah fair enough
make a tag, they will see it when they wake up.
PHP Equals Zero
The Mighty Mighty Opcodes
01:36
expecting T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM
Paamayim and the Nekudotayims
user895378
lol
The Unscoped Declare
Registered Global and the Magic Quotes
^ feat Dj Variadic
user895378
01:44
Safe Mode and the Greater Thans
lol, I'm wandering on the php doc mailing list and turns out there was a: "PHP Translation Fest 2014!"
my notion of normality is lost forever
@rdlowrey with their hit cover // I increment $i
Derick and the Warning: date(): It is not safe to rely on the system's timezone settings. You are required to use the date.timezone setting or the date_default_timezone_set() function. In case you used any of those methods and you are still getting this warning, you most likely misspelled the timezone identifier. We selected the timezone 'UTC' for now, but please set date.timezone to select your timezone. s
Is anyone aware of a reason why this wasn't implemented for empty at the same time? github.com/php/php-src/commit/… or is it just an oversight?
@Rangad have a look through mailing list archives
there may be a reason
Or not.
01:53
> "Are you hurting your little finger everytime you declare a class or a function?"
I can't reply that xD
Introducing multi argument empty is going to be harder than expected -.-
@Rangad huh?
The last discussion about it never got beyond the point of OR vs AND
and how empty and isset are different (and how they are not)
Hmm
@Rangad What you've proposed is basically !isset(), right?
I realise isset and empty aren't quite the same
but the behaviour would be similar, right?
I think that's useful
Now you can do isset() and !isset() for existence/null checks, and !empty() and empty() for existence/falsiness checks
that's useful
@Andrea In English we would say "nothing returned" ^^
01:57
@LeviMorrison Fix that if you wish :)
> The agreement was that for isset() it's very straight forward and usefull and that the semantics with empty() would be confusing and problematic, and therefore, the decision was to just support this for isset().
Yeah, sounds weird
OR vs AND... who wants variadic isset with OR?
Must be inherited from parameters where it makes sense
Maybe I can find something newer
01:57
@LeviMorrison Otherwise you think it's good though, right?
@Rangad OR is the useful behaviour
Maybe. I wonder if we could give a better message than that though.
@LeviMorrison Sure
@LeviMorrison "Return value of lacks_return() must be of the type array, function did not return a value" maybe?
The (incomplete)test+ patch linked above are based on OR
or ", no value returned"?
Maybe andi forgot that he disliked or ;D
02:00
"function lacks_return() must return an array but returned nothing"
"function lacks_return() must return an instance of Foo but returned nothing"
Maybe
comment on the pull request, a discussion could be had there
I'll sleep now ^^
I want an extension that replaces all occurrences of "nothing" with "fuck all"
3
All three previous attempts died on "and vs or" or "how would I know which var is empty).
@Rangad don't panic
AND is useless and inconsistent with isset, go for OR
:)
anyway, night
I won't. I send a mail to the one who brought it up on the list aksing him about his progress towards the rfc and wait now. Good night
02:12
AND is not useless, OR is less useful (in this case)
user895378
02:24
@PaulCrovella ahhhhhhhh TMBG was the soundtrack of my adolescence entire life. So much win there.
user895378
Also:
user895378
64-31
02:55
@rd
@rdlowrey Thanks for the heads up about the rand stuff
I've been working really hard on it: github.com/SammyK/php-src/compare/rand-bytes
Looks like someone else will beat me to it? Any chance this can still be by baby? :)
user895378
@SammyK I suspect @Leigh may be happy to have help drafting an RFC, but I don't want to put words in his mouth.
I know more experienced PHP internals people could do it better, but I was hoping to learn a lot from this journey to PHP core with you guys backing me up! :)
user895378
In any case, it's certainly not wasted experience. Every little bit helps.
True that. :) @Leigh would you be open to doing the rand stuff together? :)
user895378
I'm pretty sure he's in the UK, so probably asleep by now, but generally a jerk nice fellow ;)
03:01
Lol. I'll try to contact him and get his thoughts. Really hope I can still be pretty involved in this whole thing! :)
Related to the earlier conversation that we all missed: I'm pretty sure that /dev/urandom just forwards to /dev/arandom on BSD
So I'm not sure why anybody cares about one vs. the other
(unless I misunderstood something)
:)
user895378
Same on Mac
user895378
There's no distinction between random/urandom anymore in those environments (if the internet is to be believed)
yeah, that too, but there was lots of talk about arc4random
Anyway, UK is 2 hours behind me, so I better get some sleep too ...
user895378
@Narf nice, catch ya later.
user895378
git status
user895378
doh.
user895378
@SammyK Regarding your // @todo Need to add Windows support ... if you want to keep working on it you can use the php_win32_get_random_bytes() function. Here's an example of how to use it in mcrypt_create_iv().
user895378
03:31
I wonder if we shouldn't also add an E_DEPRECATED to the existing rand() and mt_rand() functions and create aliases to better indicate what these functions actually do.
user895378
When someone's last name is VARGA and you immediately mark it as spam in your email inbox because you read VIAGRA
03:59
@rdlowrey we're older than we've ever been and now we're even older
user895378
Purple toupée will show the way.
04:14
Thanks for the tips @rdlowrey!
zan
zan
Good morning
05:17
0
Q: Many to Many with HasMany

asimIs there way to chain ManytoMany queries with hasMany? Thanks $user=User::find(Auth::Id()); $pagination=$user->emails()->where('email.draft','<>',true)-> where('email.trash','<>',true)-> orderby('date_time','desc')->paginate(10); foreach ($pagination as $emai...

 
1 hour later…
user895378
06:22
65-31
07:01
good mornings
mornin'
07:17
good mornings
07:35
posted on February 13, 2015 by kbironneau

/* by MonsieurLeMarquis */

08:02
moin
@rdlowrey yeah wow
on the one hand, great number of votes, on the other hand, every other decision I remember was evidently made by a minority of voters ...
08:20
Morningigning
indeed
Hello
@marcio has anyone given good reason to say no to group use decl ?
@NikiC ok, but putting that deprecated notice in the first place was part of the RFC which explicitly stated to care about the assuming $this behavior (and I agree that it was a suboptimal solution back then for deprecating that behavior as it is inconsistent depending from where you call the method).
but I'm fine with us having a disagreement, just the "internals crap" which made me sad
and sorry for not catching this sooner, would have saved us from most of the current hassle
moin @Tyrael
08:55
morning
@ircmaxell a thought occurs ... might it be an idea to rfc some changes to the AST hook such that we can stop zend compiling the AST ?
Morning
Happy friday :)
moin fab, peter
08:58
ok people. I think I have made up my mind on scalar hinting. I don't like the fact that 1) strictness can be changed mid file 2) that I will end up with some things strict and some things weak in a project (I most likely will inherit at some point) 3) I don't like the declare thing.
The pro: at least we could have some fucking scalar type hinting
@PeeHaa the declare thing will go away, andrea is already working on that ...
the real pro is the last sentence in anthony's blog post ...
@JoeWatkins In all honesty the declare is the least important one to me. As in I will probably get used to whatever it will be eventually
with the solution to the declare thing 1) will go away, 2) does have some advantages but if you're not persuaded by everything you read so far then there is no point in repeating those arguments ...
@PeeHaa the problem is that declare brings with it 1), and that's a real problem imo, but we're assured this will be fixed and nobody is using 7 for a year or whatever, so there's time ...
@JoeWatkins Yeah. I have read and reread everything everbody has said. Have iterated everything countless times.
I'll ignore almost anything if it means we have a realistic chance of pursuing a usable JIT, it was always obvious that this was a possibility, but anthony has said he's going to do it, and I'm going to help, so it's as good as done already ...
09:03
:)
What "annoys" (by lack of coming up with the correct word) me most is the fact the what is being voted on is declare with all its issues
@PeeHaa I agree with 1 and 3. Not sure about 2, that's up to coding standards like many other things that we take for granted (namespaces, code style, naming files like the class etc)
@Patrick Yes that is the theory at leat
if we were voting this into 5, those things would be problems, but we're not, so they're not problems imo ...
they're problems today, but the solutions are being worked on already ...
@PeeHaa But I think the benefits of getting it in will outweigh the disadvantages. I am checking or casting all my scalars at the moment manually and it sucks...
blocking on those things for 7 would be like blocking ng because it was unfinished, because it was unfinished ... nothing is really different, in fact this is arguably a better situation, we know how to finish up ...
09:07
@Patrick No argument there, but it means I will vote on something problematic. Which shouldn't have been a problem in the first place imo
Even ignoring planned potential changes, in its current state the RFC is a net positive.
hi guys
questions i am asking may be stupid.. but this is in my mind
@Andrea reset the 90ish votes and fix the issues so I can vote with a clean conscious :P
function test(){
xyy();

function xyz(){

}

}
j/k of course
09:09
is that possible EVER?
@John Sure that is possible
Stupid, but possible
Ow wait
No not possible unless you switch the function declaration and the call
it might not do what you think it does ... xyz is still a global function ...
@PeeHaa Yeah it's not perfect. What would you prefer to have changed apart from the declare/scope thing (which I think will changed be anyways)
> Of course is easy to understand separation of concerns using a framework
@Patrick Basically the 3 things I just pointed out
09:11
for fuck sake
are these people mentally retarded or delusional?
@PeeHaa so you would prefer strict only or weak only?
Yes
I would prefer strict only actually, but if anything pick one damnit
@PeeHaa what do you mean by switch the function declaration and the call?
@JoeWatkins how its global function its inside the function
@John You are trying to call the function before it is defined
because a function has no function table
09:14
@John functions are "always" "global"
@PeeHaa but its inside the function so can it be callable from outside test() function
@John Yes that is what we are saying
ooh okay
if functions are global "ALWAYS" then why its not working?
function test(){


function xyz(){
echo "OK";
}
}
xyz();
@PeeHaa I prefer strict too. But I don't think that would ever pass. What I like about this proposal that it gives me the option to use strict in my components and my code, but even components from people who don't like strict will likely have hints.
I could probably live with weak hints too, but I think I prefer the option to go strict
Also I kinda agree with @bwoebi (which is something that doesn't happen a lot :P) about weak type casting gist.github.com/bwoebi/b4c5564388ecd004ba96
09:21
@John because test was never executed so the function was never declared ...
@JoeWatkins ohh GOD!!
@Patrick Yeah I don't think we disagree on that
okay means you have to call parent function before calling chinld one, am i correct?
@John Try it. This stuff is very easy to test for yourself.
@PeeHaa So we agree on everything, but would vote differently? :P
09:23
@PaulCrovella yes tried and succeeded thanks
@PhilSturgeon The fuck is wrong with you!? I just ate...
@JoeWatkins so the declaration of function must require to call its parent function FIRST,correct?
you know the answer, a better question is why are you declaring functions inside functions in the first place ?
@JoeWatkins No I am just curious about the same ...
09:28
The gif bin is just so much full of win
@PeeHaa then vote no on scalar type hints… *vote grabbing*
@bwoebi :)
I don't agree with everything you say, but fixing type casting would be nice either way :)
@PeeHaa and hey… I'm not saying so bad things usually…
Is there any way I can disable adblockplus for local pages? file:///
http://thecodinglove.com/post/110886256216
The coding love
Trying to figure out what to do during your first week at a new job
kbironneau
1423819837
09:35
Uggggh feeds is drunk again
Yo @DaveRandom
Morndom

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