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5:00 PM
@Abyx Can we agree that you used "they banned Russian" as an argument for why the fighting was justified and why the current government was evil? Because, you kind of did.
And by "kind of", I mean that is exactly what you did
 
@jalf yes, I used the "they banned Russian" argument. and they really did it. and then a few days later when they tried to "undo" that - it was too late.
 
@Abyx Citation needed, please
According to Wikipedia, the president vetoed the proposal to repeal the law. That means the law was never repealed.
Of course, Wikipedia could be wrong, so do you have some sources you can refer me to?
While we're at it, I'd also like some evidence for the "nazi" thing
Is the current government nazi in any way?
 
user784668
@jalf Worse, they're like Obama.
 
I know it's more fun to talk hyperbole and imaginary bullshit, but I tend to think facts are sometimes important.
 
@jalf February 23, 86% of deputies voted to ban the language. February 28 acting President vetoed that.
 
5:07 PM
@Abyx So? Was Russian banned or was Russian not banned?
Wikipedia says it was not banned.
And you don't seem to have any evidence to the contrary
I don't know exactly how laws are passed in Ukraine, but in the countries I know of, laws do not instantly go into effect as soon as politicians have voted on them
 
uhm...
 
(And the fact that it could be vetoed 5 days later strongly indicates that it had not yet taken effect. Otherwise, a veto would not make sense)
 
if it would happen in your country - would you wait when it will be banned after the vote? would you even want to live in such country?
 
@Abyx That has nothing to do with anything
So, you agree that the ban never took effect, yes?
You were making that up. Correct?
(or you were misinformed, or remembered incorrectly)
 
so why is it, on codementor.io, when you specify a price in the request, it still brings up people who are charging really high amounts?
 
5:11 PM
@jalf uhm... I can put it different. if a villain points a gun at you - will you wait when he shoots?
 
@Abyx Could you please answer my question?
Do you agree that the ban on Russian never happened? Yes or no
We can talk about other stuff afterwards
 
woo, it started raining after I got home
great success
 
@jalf yes, that particular law was never repealed.
 
Thank you
You used that as evidence of the current Ukrainian government being fascist. So do you still believe they are fascist? And why do you think they are fascist, if not because of the ban on Russian?
 
What did I just walk into?
 
user784668
5:15 PM
@Mysticial Irrelevantness.
 
figures :)
 
@Mysticial we're playing a little game, of trying to introduce internal consistency and logic into an argument about Ukraine. It is very enlightening
So you say that their government, which was democratically elected by a referendum, in which, as far as we know, no cheating was involved, is illegitimate. You say they are fascist because of something that you agree they never actually did. And you say they are "nazi", but have not explained why. You're making a really strong case, here.
 
You also say that the former Ukrainian president was forced to flee the entire country because his life was in danger due to "a few thousand" protesters who were, according to you, only located in one single square. It's just a gut feeling, but I can't help suspecting that there's some sort of inconsistency in what you're saying. It seems like something doesn't quite add up.
 
@jalf ok. the definitions of fascism say - radical authoritarian nationalism, anti-communism. What we have in Ukraine - the communist party was banned, nazi became the National Guard, government is controlled by a few magnates.
 
5:20 PM
@Abyx How much of this was done by the current government?
What has the current government done that was fascist?
 
and yeah, their National Guard really like German Nazi symbolic, like SS
 
@Abyx And that has what to do with the current government?
 
@jalf uhm... it's current National Guard
 
Was it formed by the current government, or did it exist already?
oo, my new gpu arrived :D
 
@jalf it was formed by current government from the people who fighted riot police on Maidan.
 
5:26 PM
@Abyx and what has this National Guard done that is fascist?
 
let's see... how you define "fascist"?
 
@Abyx You were the one who called them fascist. I'm asking you
 
user3010322
OH my god my RESHARPER TRIAL ENDED AT WORK
 
user3010322
How am I gonna survive this codebase now
 
user3010322
My IDExperience. ;~;
 
5:27 PM
I mean, I assumed you would know what made the government fascist, since you called it fascist
 
@jalf can you just share your definition?
 
I don't have one. Fascism can mean a lot of different things to different people in different eras
 
@jalf huh? It appeared in Italy in XX
 
@Abyx Yep. And what it meant then is different from what it is often taken to mean today
it is usually a non-democratic authoritarian regime.
But that doesn't matter. You said that the Ukrainian government is fascist. What I think fascist means doesn't matter. What do you think it means, and why do you think the Ukrainian government is guilty of it?
 
well, to me they're fascist because they look like fascists
 
5:31 PM
what does it mean to "look like fascists"?
they have mustaches and wear military caps?
 
I wonder what a GUI API would look like when using value semantics rather than the typical OO polymorphic design.
 
So you are saying that the current government is illegitimate because it was democratically elected. And it is fascist because it did not ban the Russian language, and because it hasn't actually done anything fascist.
I think I get the general gist here. Do you have any closing remarks before I go tend to my dinner?
 
@jalf I mean they look like this - google.ru/…
 
the National Guard?
 
user3010322
I want a contry's letter initials to be fu
 
user3010322
5:35 PM
so I can do google.fu
 
@Abyx But have they done anything fascist?
 
@StackedCrooked I'd like to see that. How about if you write one and show us?
 
@jalf it's just one of their squadrons.
 
Gimme a few weeks.
 
@Abyx sure, and honestly, I believe you that they are utter bastards. But have they done anything fascist?
 
5:38 PM
@jalf uhm... wearing SS symbolic, yelling "let's kill russians because they're russians", shelling cities?
 
@Abyx Yelling and wearing symbols is not in itself fascist
 
if your enemies are rebel fighters in cities, then shelling them seems quite reasonable to me.
 
I dare you to find a military force anywhere on the planet where people do not yell :p
 
the OSCE observers do not report any mass civilian casualties due to government shelling
 
@Puppy oh and where are they? the observers?
 
5:40 PM
in Ukrainian cities held by the rebels.
 
@Abyx they were abducted by the rebels for a good while
 
also that.
 
@Puppy I heard they're just sitting at Russian border
 
@Abyx you heard wrong
 
@Puppy mass - it's like how many?
 
5:42 PM
@Abyx Dunno, I didn't go out and count the graves myself.
 
@Abyx you may not agree with their actions, but it is not "fascist" for a military force in a country to fight people who occupy parts of the country. That is what an army is supposed to do.
 
what I know is that the people my government paid to go out there and determine if there was any war crimes going on do not say that there are war crimes.
 
An army that does not act when parts of the country are occupied is useless
 
@jalf lolwut? "occupy" they're fucking live there
 
that's the civilians, not the rebels.
 
5:43 PM
rebels are from the locals, mostly
 
@Abyx but when you take up missile launchers and ak47's and start shooting at your country's military forces, you stop being a civilian
 
right, but kicking out government soldiers and shooting down government airplanes is occupying a territory, even if you normally live there.
 
And if you don't expect the military to fight back, then you are pretty stupid
 
@Puppy yeah they say what your government tells them to say.
 
@Abyx I say your media says what your government tells them to say; you say my media says whatever my government tells them to say. Neither of us can reasonably achieve anything with this line.
unless I want to point out, say, that my media disagrees with my government all the time and makes a big habit of taking the piss out of them and institutionally sides with the opposition.
or that my government doesn't require bloggers to register with them, and can't take down websites without judicial oversight.
 
5:46 PM
@jalf and for rebels it's the opposite. their country is DNR and LNR and Ukraine is the enemy.
 
or that my government doesn't ban promoting homosexuality to under 18s (WTF?)
 
@Abyx sure, but that is irrelevant
you really like those straw man arguments, don't you?
Do you remember my question?
 
@jalf which one?
 
What has the government and national guard in Ukraine done that was "fascist"?
 
8 mins ago, by Abyx
@jalf uhm... wearing SS symbolic, yelling "let's kill russians because they're russians", shelling cities?
 
5:47 PM
@Abyx Yelling unpleasant things and wearing unpleasant symbols does not make you fascist
and it is not fascist for a country's military to fight rebellions. It is what they are supposed to do. It may not be nice, and it may not be ethical or constructive or beneficial, but it is not "fascist"
 
welp in my country the first two points are forbidden by law
maybe that's why I see it different
 
@Abyx that does still not make them "fascist"
 
@jalf in Russia it does. wearing swastika makes you fascist and leads to jail
 
I'm not saying the national guard is made up of nice people
 
@Abyx No, in Russia it makes them in violation of the law. That's a different thing.
 
5:48 PM
@Abyx In Russia, you don't have to do anything fascist in order to be fascist?
 
and for a country which bans promoting homosexuality to under 18s (seriously waht the fuck) then we can safely disregard their laws as making any kind of rational sense.
 
So, as I said above, you claim that the Ukrainian government is fascist because it hasn't done anything fascist
 
@jalf praising fascism is fascist.
 
@Abyx Does the Ukraine government do that?
 
@jalf they doesn't forbid that.
 
5:49 PM
I haven't observed the Ukraine government to, I dunno, reaffirm their desires to make a Christian state.
which the rebels did.
 
@Abyx You just said it was against the law
 
religious fuckers.
@jalf In Russia. Not in Ukraine.
 
@Puppy only a part of them. there is a lot of communists as well
 
meh
personally I don't consider a person's economic perspectives to be all that relevant.
 
@Abyx So they are fascist because they don't follow Russian law?
 
5:50 PM
why is javascript so frustrating?!
 
And they are illegitimate because they were democratically elected
 
it's not like America where "Communist" means "Stalin".
 
And a few thousand protesters in a square who had no support from the rest of the country forced the president to flee to a different country
I'm sorry, but what you are saying is complete and total nonsense
It is not that I disagree with you, it is that you disagree with yourself
 
user3079266
You see, here in Russia, you don't always look for logic behind what the TV says
 
there is no logic, no consistency in your argument. It falls apart as soon as anyone asks you to explain
 
user3079266
5:52 PM
it is often completely pointless since there is none
 
@jalf yep because they support nazi and kill civilians
 
user3079266
@Abyx: whoah, who does?
 
@Abyx How does the current Ukrainian government "support nazi"?
I believe you that civilians have gotten killed in the fighting with the rebels/terrorists/russians/whatever we prefer to call them. But has the Ukrainian army targeted civilians at any point?
 
@jalf uhm... their national guard... like I said before
 
What about it?
 
5:54 PM
so let's discuss the idiotic moves of the other large group of morons, which is that emails held in Dublin should be legally seizable in the US.
 
@jalf it just targeted cities.
 
who wants to bet that Microsoft just totally ignores them and says "Go get them yourself, wankers".
 
@Abyx random cities? Or cities occupied by rebels?
 
@Abyx Which parts of cities?
cause, you know, some parts of those cities are rebel military bases and therefore valid military targets.
 
user3079266
@Abyx: hello, fellow co-patriot. I'm sorry to hear that you've been so badly influenced by Kiselev and all the other morons on our stupid TV. Perhaps it would be better to abandon this argument, turn off russian TV, and code in peace? We are all programmers, we shouldn't argue on anything more important than what language is better.
 
5:56 PM
are you kidding? we never do that shit.
 
user3079266
*programming language
 
not sure whether to star or flag...
 
@Mints97 actually, I disagree with the last part. I think there are a lot of things that are more important than programming.
the world would be a better place if programmers took more of an interest in the world. :p
 
@Mints97 If you press the up-arrow, you can do a real edit on your comment (for a couple minutes after posting).
 
well it's undeniable that puppy would make the greatest leader ever
 
5:57 PM
 
user3079266
@jalf: sure, but the crap they give on russian TV channels is definitely less needed to watch than anything
 
@Mints97 I prefer reading cassad.net instead of watching TV.
 
@StackedCrooked Looks like an interesting start anyway.
 
user3079266
@Abyx: never heard of that site. Have you tried echo.msk.ru or rbc.ru?
 
oh well 10 minutes til I have to go home...
 
5:58 PM
@Mints97 Arguing on what language is better is a terribly boring discussion.
 
user3079266
@Jeffrey: but it is at least not so nasty as political discussion
 
user3079266
@Abyx: no need to turn nasty, let's just stop arguing
 
user3079266
I am as concerned of the events in Ukraine and Russia as you are
 
@Mints97 Fuck that. We argue all the time and for good reason.
 
@Abyx Chill. He hasn't actually said anything offensive to you
 
5:59 PM
but there's no need for Abyx to be rude to you like that.
 
user3079266
@Puppy: but not about politics ><
 
@Jefffrey Wide won it years ago.
 
@Jefffrey Japanese
 
@Mints97 no gifs.
 
no gifs.
 
6:00 PM
well, I guess it's time for me to eat my dinner!
 
user3079266
guys, I've just had and heard WAY too much talk and argument about what's happening in Ukraine and Russia. I've got trouble standing any more of it...
 
@Puppy Yes, a programming language that doesn't exists is infinitely better than a language that does exists.
 
then why the hell did you come into our chatroom when we were discussing it?
 
user3079266
@Puppy: how should I have known you were discussing it?
 
user3079266
XD
 
6:02 PM
by reading the chat before you started complaining.
 
2 mins ago, by Jefffrey
@Mints97 no gifs.
 
we can discuss whatever we like and it doesn't need to suit you.
 
user3079266
I haven't posted any gifs
 
user3079266
O_o
 
user3079266
@Puppy: yep, I can see you point. sorry =)
 
6:03 PM
And the "let's ping him until he understands" game has begun.
52 secs ago, by Jefffrey
2 mins ago, by Jefffrey
@Mints97 no gifs.
The score is now 3.
 
user3079266
wha?.. sorry, I don'g follow you guys
 
user3079266
what gifs?
 
Will he click on the link? Only God's knows.
 
user3079266
oh, it's a link
 
@Abyx anyway, sorry you got suspended. Thanks for the discussion. It was fun :)
omnomnom dinner
 
6:06 PM
@Mints97 Sorry for being a dick about it. Just click on the little arrow on the right to reply to a specific message.
 
haha
boost's string stuff is pretty neat
I'm currently trying to replace anything string manipulation that was in the codebase before with it, partly because all of it looks like this but x 10
    while(h[0] == 32)
    {
        h = &h[1];
    }
    strcpy(s, h);
and partly because I'm randomly getting stack corruptions near everything that manipulates strings in this game
 
@AlexM. What game are you working on?
 
decided to refactor dink smallwood for fun
also the OS seems to toggle breakpoints whenever the game frees data
IIRC that's because of heap corruption
> In software development, a Schlemiel the painter's algorithm (sometimes, Schlemiel the painter algorithm) is a reference to a method that is inefficient because the programmer has overlooked some fundamental issues at the very lowest levels of software design.
just noticed the original method that split strings on whitespace here was an example of this
for each word requested it would start at the beginning and skip words until the target was met, despite the possibility of using data left from previous calls
 
6:24 PM
okay, weird question. on gh-pages, is there a way to specify where the index.html page lives, or does it have to be in the root dir?
 
depends wtf a "gh-page" is, I'd imagine
github?
svn ftw bro
 
yeah github, too lazy to learn other source control
 
I didn't really have trouble switching from git to svn
I got used to it in a few hours
I obviously don't know how to do everything I know in git in svn yet
but still
it's not like git is C++ and svn is prolog
 
6:41 PM
people seem to idolise git
i never got into it
github is kinda cool tho i guess
 
I only use svn at work
been using git at home
 
hmmm
I wonder if I can slap Clang into producing the calling convention data I need?
 
7:09 PM
don't we all
 
user3010322
Has anyone here ever had a use for a write-only file?
 
user3010322
That is, a file that supports being written to by the person who opened it, but not being read at all?
 
yes
they're files in which you write Perl
ba dum tschhhhhh
 
Ell
7:25 PM
Nope
 
I think it's analogous to setting a variable that is never used
I dunno, write a file to set a flag for another process because there's no other way (?)
 
7:38 PM
Maybe a program that listens for the existance of said read only file?
 
@ThePhD What qualifies as a file? Just for example, on (some versions of?) Unix, named pipes are implemented in the file system. When you open the write end of the named pipe, you can't read from it, only write to it. Of course, somebody else can open the read end, and read what you wrote. Somewhat similarly, you can write anything you want to /dev/null, but you can't read anything from it.
 
user3010322
@JerryCoffin Ah, right...
 
@ThePhD named pipe perhaps
mkfifo commands
sudo bash -c "{ while true ; do read line <commands  ; eval \"$line\" ; done ; } & disown"
echo reboot > commands # Now you can do it without sudo :D
 
@jalf no, it's just that "fuck off" is exactly what you should say to trolls.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit github sucks. stash is way better
 
7:54 PM
I've not yet encountered a situation where I wanted/needed polymorphic lamba.
While the need for move-capture comes up all the time.
 
49% oppressed
 
@StackedCrooked you need polymorphic lambdas just to not write argument types
 
@ThePhD I could only think of logs, or sensitive information.
 
8:03 PM
@StackedCrooked it is
and the more of a burden you are for those who have to look after you
 
Ell
Man neither of the people who I wanted to see are here
Now I have no reason to get intoxicated
 
> void strip_beginning_spaces(char *s)
I'm scared to find out why the game only works correctly if I do this
if (s[0] != ' ')
{
      return;
}
 
Erm.. you should understand your code.
 
it's not mine
 
In that case hack away :P
 
8:07 PM
I'm guessing there are cases where tabs or newlines are needed for some funky script parsing
 
@Abyx poor car :(
 
because boost::trim_left without that check won't cut it
 
@AlexM. heh
terrible
 
posted on August 06, 2014 by Eric Battalio

We know a lot of you C++ developers also use other frameworks like .NET and Xamarin. If so, do you mind taking a brief survey at http://aka.ms/vsmdd ? Look for us to share highlights from the last couple of surveys in the next month or so. We are still...(read more)

 
...
"other frameworks" than C++
whut
 
8:09 PM
@Feeds I want clang support.
 
guess Eric forgot that he's talking about MFC or whatever
 
@StackedCrooked could be a brain thing; or maybe it's also a psychological thing where wisdom of the years makes people care less about appearing smart and more about chosing carefully what they want to convey. I certainly have a feeling it's a bit of both in this fragment
 
Yeah.
 
@Abyx god. I'd love for people to just stop the violence. Stupid money games
 
8:14 PM
in the end I used boost::trim_left_if and told it to only trim whitespaces
I'll find out soon what kind of magic requires tabs and/or newlines at the beginning of the string here
 
hello
 
hello
@StackedCrooked what a surprise. You can make your own security holes now? I thought it was well-established that it's actually harder not to do that
 
I use it on my laptop to bind the Pause/Break button to (instant) reboot.
 
It works like a charm.
And I don't care if that is a security hole on my laptop.
 
8:22 PM
@StackedCrooked Insta reboot would be S-A-SysRq-B
 
TIL about SysRq
 
Also - stop underestimating the power of sudo
8
A: Shell script - Sudo-permissions lost over time

seheThe flexibility of sudo is widely under-estimated. This leads to very poor practices (like the sudo su - canon-ball surgery method). A much better method is to specificly allow the commands you intend to allow without use of a password: phill = NOPASSWD: /bin/ls, /usr/bin/lprm You can optio...

Finally, if you don't mind a security hole, setuid /sbin/reboot will do
 
It's not actually an instant reboot, since it maps to "sudo reboot" which still does a (more or less) clean reboot.
 
^ look up
 
@StackedCrooked goddamn you're right about the guy
he stumbles every 2 or 3 words
gets a bit annoying after a while
 
8:26 PM
@sehe Ah, the sudoers file. I remember using it on your vps. :)
And fucking it up.
 
@sehe never! I will do that until the day I die!
 
Okay, bro. You're good
> A lot of people accuse feminists of thinking that all men are rapists. That’s not true. But do you know who think all men are rapists?

Rapists do.
There's some powerful food for thought there juliepagano.tumblr.com/post/51565918563/…
(I'd love for the same message to be delivered slightly less provocatively, but I guess this is one way to make it heard. Of course, the sad thing is that it'll make it easier to dismiss as "mad woman ranting". I genuinely think there is some good food for thought there)
 
some of this code is so damn tangled instead of bothering to understand it directly I just rewrite it while taking into account what I think it does, and at the end run both versions and wherever mine differs from the original, assert(false)
the assertion rarely failed so far so I was spared from understanding most tangled messes
 
Hope you have tests.
Yes, this is what I end up doing too. But I totally freak out until I'm sure I can do this. Which implies that I literally throw away probably 80% of this kind of work (though I hoard the refactoring branches)
 
@PolymorphicPotato Well, the configuration is now a python script.
 
8:41 PM
@sehe nah there were no tests here, I'll probably write some once I get rid of all these custom string manipulation crap that causes stack and heap corruption
 
...
 
@AlexM. refactoring without tests is insane
 
@AlexM. Wrong order IYAM. But of course, I can't judge the value/risk of the work you're doing
 
it's just for fun, so there's no value/risk involved
right now the goal is to remove all memory related issues and get rid of the 9k and 13k LOC header files
 
8:44 PM
I'm not even sure how to unit test all parts of a game
with, say, Unity's tools it was somewhat easy because I'd set up a scene with preset interactions between objects
 
@AlexM. (I agree it's insane to assume you're somehow immune to writing bugs. Also, the thing with proven APIs and highlevel programming is that there might be fewer bugs; this just means that your bugs will be harder to find (and by some statistical logic, more damaging))
@AlexM. Sounds like a valid cause
@AlexM. Then don't. You're talking about friggin string manip here
 
@sehe I've spent most of this week finding bugs in proven APIs. :(
fuck proven APIs. They're almost as bad as unproven ones
almost
 
Proven to be buggy? :)
 
@StackedCrooked they are now, yes
 
@sehe that I will unit test, as it's part of script parsing
 
8:46 PM
@jalf Like I said. The proven part just promises that your bugs will be evasive
 
I want to extend the script parser so it's natural to set up some tests at the base
 
@sehe true
 
quick, everyone: behave!
 
protip: don't try to use Qt's socket classes with their waitFor<something> member functions.
 
sbi
@ApprenticeHacker What do you mean, "he was awesome"?
 
8:48 PM
Thanks for letting me know :/
(FTR I didn't know it was you saying things until the last moment, and it doesn't matter to me)
 
sbi
@sehe Yeah, I saw so. (How hilarious!) Anyway, the office was all women, dev was all men. We called them "girls" sometimes, they called us "boys" ("Jungs, es gibt Essen!") – despite the fact that some of us were past 50 –, and nobody felt bad about it.
 
@sbi I like your post.
 
sbi
@StackedCrooked "Be the first to like my post!"
 
@sehe The "assert(false)" part indicates that he's written at least some kind of testing to compare the two. Admittedly, there's no guarantee the testing is anywhere close to sufficient, but it does sound like at least some must exist.
 
sbi
Ok, I decided to take the kids to a kayaking tour for a week starting tomorrow, and I was too lazy to start packing tonight, so I'd better go to bed now. See you guys (ha!) next week!
 
8:56 PM
Have fun :p
 
@sbi I understand that. I've made it clear (maybe it was here) that I'm not doubting the good intentions of the poster (you, in this case). I also think that's only mildly relevant, since your post becomes a community owned thing once you posted it, and the community may have more interest in inclusive communication than you need to have at your work place. It's all about contexts, IYAM
@sbi lol @ "ha!" and have a good time
 

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