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11:00 AM
I believe camping and bushwaling in the wild would be good for shaping my persoality ~_~
 
Xeo
wat
 
Heh -star and a flag.
 
flag for that?!
 
awesome isn't it
 
Xeo
11:02 AM
hahaha
 
I remember yesterday there was a starred message moved to the bin
 
yeha ironically the bin has a few stars
 
hilariously useless
 
> Strong foundation in computer science, with strong competencies in data structures, algorithms and software design.
oh here we go
"Could you talk me through how bubblesort works?" hang up
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Reject pile.
 
11:05 AM
I could probably blag the "C++ abstraction" route and blind them with my crazy knowledge of stdlib containers and algorithms, their comparative advantages/disadvantages and a few complexities
it's not like this is Google
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit that deserves
 
11:20 AM
@Xeo uncabulary?
 
Xeo
@jalf I like that
 
hey @thecoshman, guess what I won at work! Chocolate-covered almonds dipped in salty liquorice stuff :D
sounds kinda gross
 
Xeo
Uncabulary unavailable for Unconference unattendees.
 
user1804599
Kim Jong-unconference.
 
Xeo
Couldn't fully alliterate it :(
@jalf Want
 
user1804599
11:24 AM
Next unconference in North Korea.
 
Xeo
lol
 
Unkorea
 
Xeo
Hah
10
 
that is brilliant
 
user1804599
cat(bird) = ???
 
Ven
11:31 AM
lol @ my boss "you have a lot of tabs open"
 
Ven
"this is music, music, music and still music. This is our website, and this is ... a technical IRC"
thanks for your ruby on rails help, guys
stop acting like you're disgusted, y'all
 
user1804599
Ruby on Rails is terrible.
 
I doubt it's good even without rails.
 
Ven
@chmod711telkitty Great, now I'm excited
@rightfold 'twas either PHP, Android or Rails.
@rightfold so I went for Rails
 
user1804599
PHP; nobrainer.
 
@Xeo Beautiful.
 
Ven
@rightfold You're often disgusting
 
user1804599
If you are given multiple options you should pick the least terrible.
 
Ven
11:37 AM
@rightfold PHP is the worst, by far.
 
user1804599
Nah. If you have to use CodeIgniter or PHP 5.3 maybe.
 
Ven
@rightfold No, no. You have to work with people doing PHP4 in PHP5.
 
user1804599
Oh, working with incompetent people.
 
user1804599
Then all options are equally terrible.
 
Ven
11:40 AM
@rightfold No. Ruby is better.
 
user3010322
For some reason, std::vector is not respecting my arena allocator.
 
Ven
@rightfold Rubymine+working with smart people
 
@ThePhD on VS?
 
@chmod711telkitty shopped
 
user3010322
@Mgetz Yeah.
 
11:41 AM
obviously
 
@ThePhD VS requires the verbose 2003 allocator interface to be implemented
 
user3010322
Somehow, my allocator's arena is turning up some null garbage.
 
user3010322
@Mgetz .... Wat.
 
user3010322
You can't be fucking serious.
 
user3010322
Really
 
user3010322
11:42 AM
Fucking really
 
It's VS.
How is that surprising?
 
@ThePhD go read the VS "14" breaking changes
 
user3010322
@Mgetz I did, I don't remember seeing anything about "we fixed out std::vector shit" ?
 
user1804599
@Ven whether you use rubymine or not is your own choice.
 
Ven
@rightfold yeah, but it fixes a lot of ruby's shortcomings.
 
user3010322
11:43 AM
> Minimal allocator fixes: Several library components (including basic_string and std::function) did not work with user-defined allocators implementing C++11's minimal allocator interface, instead requiring C++03's verbose allocator interface. All occurrences of this problem are fixed.
 
user3010322
NOPE
 
user3010322
THERE IT IS
 
user3010322
WELL THAT'S JUST GREAT
 
Ven
@rightfold PHP has as many shortcomings, and doesn't have as much flexibility
 
user3010322
11:43 AM
Now I need to find some old shitty C++03 documentation and fix that shit.
 
@ThePhD I know I ran into this as well
 
user3010322
What the fuck.
 
Am I misreading?
It says it got fixed doesn't it?
 
user3010322
@Rapptz In VS "14"
 
user3010322
Which you can't install with any other version of VS
 
11:45 AM
@Rapptz yes in an unreleased version
 
user3010322
I.E. -- fucking completely unusable
 
Oh I thought that CTP (?) was released
 
user3010322
"Want to use our new toolchain? Abandon all hope of working if the installation fails. :D"
 
lol VS
 
user3010322
6.2..202233.022
 
user3010322
11:46 AM
PI
 
@Xeo That is now part of my office door decoration.
 
user3010322
^ What possessed them not to use these?
 
user3010322
It's there for a goddamn reason.
 
@ThePhD oh.. they did which is a pain in the ass if you want to do an aligned allocator
they are just call throughs to the verbose interface though
 
11:51 AM
@BartekBanachewicz congrats
:D
 
Ven
@rightfold I thought I was a weird one with ruby and haskell, but with your perl/php and haskell, you're far weirder dood
Can we talk about the fact that PHP has type annotations only for user-defined types and only checked at runtime ?
 
we all already knew
 
@ThePhD why do you need a custom allocator for vector? Is the default one bad? I have always been curious about reasons behind it. Never had such experience =)
 
user3010322
@JohnPoison arena allocator
 
user3010322
I.E. a stack-based allocator.
 
11:57 AM
@Ven also callable and array
 
user3010322
Trying to get rid of my double-responsibility fixed_vector<T, n>
 
@ThePhD arena != stack-based
 
@ThePhD Different things, at least with the common notion of "stack".
 
Ven
@Jefffrey oh, yeah, array which is a class-but-not-really.
 
@ThePhD the default is pool allocator, right ?
 
user3010322
11:58 AM
@DeadMG That's how I'm using it right now.
 
@Ven array is not a class in the PHP term
 
user3010322
and replace it with std::vector<T, arena_allocator<T, n>>
 
user3010322
But if VS is going to behave this shittily
 
it's a built-in
 
that would not be an arena.
 
Ven
11:58 AM
@Jefffrey the only thing I know is that they internals for arrays are fucked up big time.
 
@ThePhD ah you made the same mistake I did
 
user3010322
If it's going to be this much fucking trouble
 
@Ven yes, it can be both a an std::map and an array for example, at the same time
 
user3010322
I'm just going to use fixed_vector
 
user1804599
@Ven We could, and the former is a crappy flaw but they're working on it.
 
Ven
11:59 AM
@Jefffrey oh, I've done my share of PHP, don't worry.
 
VS panics if you use an allocator with two template parameters, you have to make a specialization of std::allocator_traits for your allocator
 
user3010322
@Mgetz ....
 
user3010322
GEEEEEEEEEE GEEEEEEEEEEEE
 
user1804599
It has to do with type casts. If you have function f(int $x) and you call f('1') should it cast or error?
 
Ven
@rightfold Oh yeah, they're working on unicode too amirite ? oh wait
 
user3010322
11:59 AM
Done using fixed_vector
 
ok
 
user1804599
@Ven I don't know. Never had to do anything with it.
 
Ven
@rightfold I'm joking around php6
 
user1804599
I don't know anything about PHP 6.
 
user1804599
PHP is a terrible programming language, but at least you don't have the endless joy of Ruby on Rails with it.
 
Ven
12:02 PM
Ruby on Rails works for me :)
better than Symfony and other craps
 
user1804599
Symfony is great compared to Ruby on Rails.
 
Ven
Symfony is terrible and Rails is terrible
They're both piece of technology that have far too much kruft in it.
Symfony has java kruft, Rails has ruby kruft
 
wat
 
user1804599
The only part of Symfony I use is HttpFoundation and it works great.
 
12:04 PM
@Ven which Symfony version ?
 
user1804599
Glad I don't have to implement all that myself.
 
Ven
@JohnPoison 2. sf1 was just ... No comment. Worst that Rails on the magic part
 
user1804599
Try using only a single component of Rails without having to pull in anything else.
 
Ven
@rightfold Do you know what Merb is ?
 
@Ven I noticed a lot of SF2 similarity with Django. Especially twig
 
Ven
12:05 PM
@JohnPoison yeah, twig was ripped of django.
 
user1804599
@Ven No.
 
user1804599
Twig is neat.
 
user3010322
[ MARKER ] VS ALLOCATOR SUCKS 💩 💩 💩 💩 💩 💩 💩 💩 💩 💩 💩 💩 💩
 
user3010322
So I can chat-search this conversation later.
 
Ven
@rightfold it is ! I just add some haml sparkle on top of that, though
@rightfold Exactly the ability to take parts of Rails you want
I use ActiveRecord in some of my projects
 
12:06 PM
 
user1804599
ActiveRecord is about the worst part of Ruby on Rails.
 
Ven
Haha
It really is, I spend at least 4 hours a week fighting it
 
user1804599
Maybe if it didn't insist on single-column primary keys and lack of constraints.
 
user1804599
And coupling of entities and storage.
 
user1804599
With global database connections.
 
12:08 PM
Is active record some sort of ORM ?
 
Ven
@JohnPoison It's a ORM
@rightfold Meh, I can swap between AR and Mongostuff pretty easily. One column to change
 
it's a SHIT
 
@jalf fuck, I meant to send you that shite back :S
I'll get on it at weekend maybe.
 
Ven
And I only use single-column pk. There's a gem for composite, tho
 
user1804599
Join tables are examples of where I use multi-column pks.
 
Ven
@rightfold you mean for HABTM ?
@rightfold Rails won't care if you use multi column pks here, because it doesn't represent the table in the middle
 
@ThePhD I thought boost already had such an allocator?
 
user3010322
@Mgetz static_vector, but I'm not using boost right now.
 
Ven
I write Ruby like I write lisp ...
 
user1804599
@Ven I do not know what HABTM is.
 
12:13 PM
ah
 
user1804599
@Ven Ruby's parser generates S-expressions.
 
Ven
@rightfold Has and Belongs to Many (N-M)
 
user1804599
Oh. Can I also attach additional fields to that with AR?
 
user1804599
I don't like ORMs anyway.
 
user1804599
Query builders are fine and nice, though.
 
Ven
12:16 PM
@rightfold yeah, you can also do it.
 
user1804599
Nice.
 
Ven
@rightfold You just have to use has_many through: instead of has_and_belongs_to_many
 
user1804599
Oh right, I forgot.
 
@ThePhD writing your own PPL?
 
user3010322
@Mgetz Pretty much.
 
user3010322
12:17 PM
Well, not really.
 
Ven
@rightfold I don't like Query Builders. They're limiting me too often.
 
user3010322
I've only done the stuff I've really wanted to.
 
Ven
Though I really want to see where I'll go with Perl 6 slangs.
 
user3010322
Thread, ThreadPool, and a BlockingQueue
 
ah, I've always been curious to see if anyone could write a fiber based PPL
 
user1804599
12:19 PM
@Ven They're nice for creating queries from complex user input like advanced search.
 
user1804599
Currently we're using Twig for that, lol.
 
Ven
@rightfold Yeah, we're really bad at this shit tbh.
Context-sensitive escaping, I mean.
 
@ThePhD What does Thread do?
Please don't say Java.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Thread does Java?
 
user3010322
Wraps std::thread and provides some cooperative cancellation abilities (hooks in with Sleep and the like to terminate if outside-requested).
 
user3010322
12:21 PM
Other than that, nothing... spectacular?
 
@jalf The Java-style Thread class. IIRC Qt does the same nonsense.
 
user3010322
I don't know what a java-style Thread is supposed to do.
 
You don't need to wrap thread for cooperative cancellation.
A cancellation_token is enough, and more flexible as it allows cancellation of tasks, instead of threads.
 
user3010322
I've been thinking about doing cancellation_token,
 
user3010322
but I haven't gottne to it yet.
 
12:24 PM
@ThePhD I know jalf knows because he bitched about the Qt one before.
 
user3010322
Should I provide the ability for a thread to be aborted, though?
 
user1804599
@Ven Why do you need escaping?
 
user3010322
IIRC C# allows you to Thread.Abort(), but...
 
user1804599
Use parameterised queries.
 
Ven
@rightfold user input
 
Xeo
12:25 PM
Great. I think MSVC is caught in an infinite loop somewhere. "Microsoft Visual Studio is waiting for an internal operation to complete."
:(
For 5 minutes
 
@ThePhD That's crap.
 
Xeo
oh, it's done
 
user1804599
@Ven tx.query('select id, password_hash, password_salt from users where email_address = $1', email_address)
 
Phantom guy was obviously a troll. In 2 messages he mentioned 3 terrible languages.
 
Ven
@rightfold I don't want strings. Strings suck.
 
user3010322
12:26 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Is it bad to use Thread.Abort?
 
Even if you put aside the shady nature of aborting a thread, it doesn't even guarantee the thread will abort.
@ThePhD Yes.
 
user1804599
@Ven What do you want?
 
Ven
@rightfold I want first-class SQL.
@rightfold That I can opt-in. With context-sensitive escaping.
I.e. for column names etc too.
 
user1804599
Oh, meh.
 
user1804599
SQL AST-to-code library!
 
user1804599
12:27 PM
sqlcodegen!
 
Ven
yep
 
There are almost no uses for aborting a thread, and in the situations where it might be possibly be vaguely useful you are better served by other constructs (namely processes).
 
user1804599
@Ven Write it.
 
Ven
@rightfold Oh, I'm sure it already exists
I certainly hope we're not that fucked. ;)
 
user1804599
It'd be cool to use such a library with Lisp macros.
 
12:33 PM
That rhymes (IBNSFW), I guess.
 
Ven
@rightfold Not sure what korma does
but it has a nice DSL
 
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes If I have a cancellation token, do I just check token.cancelled, or do I have a token.quit_if_cancelled() that throws a CancellationTokenException to unwind the thread and terminate or something?
 
user1804599
@Ven Meh, relationships with naming assumptions.
 
Ven
@rightfold havn't used it much, tbh
 
@ThePhD Keep both. Throwing is useful because it can cancel the task from deep in the call stack.
 
12:37 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah, I know :)
Death to Java-style threads
 
user1804599
@Ven too high-level for my taste.
 
Ven
@rightfold yea; I can see why :)
 
user1804599
I just want something that generates queries and does nothing beyond that.
 
@Ven be tasty :D
 
Ven
@thecoshman I'm too bad at english to understand this one ;)
 
12:43 PM
@Ven Corma, the curry :P
 
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes How far should the cancellation token cancel?
 
Ven
@thecoshman noted, thanks :)
 
user3010322
I.E. Should it blow up the whole thread?
 
It should do nothing.
 
lol
I got an email from the CEO of the company I've applied to
 
12:43 PM
It's just an atomic<bool>.
The tasks decide how they want to cooperate.
 
user3010322
Oh.
 
user3010322
I wanted some overriding-behavior
 
Just add throw_if_cancelled() for that.
 
@BartekBanachewicz "stop wasting our time"
 
@thecoshman he said "don't worry we just need you to know maths nicely"
 
12:44 PM
It stops everything up to the first cancellation-aware unit.
 
@BartekBanachewicz what was the question?
 
Say, if you have a thread pool, the thread pool would wrap each task in a try-catch that catches cancellation exceptions and marks that thread as free so it can be reused, but the task is gone by then (because the exception left it).
 
user1804599
@Ven it also depends on global variables.
 
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes So if the task itself decides not to behave and the task throws, it'll terminate the whole application if a canceltoken.throw_if_canceled() bubbles through?
 
user3010322
I feel like there should be an invisible trampoline for a safer exit around the thread's runner, so something like that can't happen.
 
user1804599
12:46 PM
exec takes only a query, not a transaction or database connection.
 
@ThePhD packaged_task
 
Ven
@rightfold no, no ! they changed it to dynamic variables recently
(if you mean for with-db)
 
user1804599
Eww.
 
@thecoshman there was none. Maybe implied in my cover letter.
 
user1804599
Anyway executing queries should be out of the scope of a query generation library.
 
12:47 PM
@ThePhD You can make a factory that wraps the action in a try-catch and swallows cancellation exceptions.
cancellation_token start_cancellable_task(Fun&& fun)
 
Ven
@rightfold That's how it should be done.
lisp is kinda about "parameters" (or dynamically-scopd variables) in DSLs.
 
That does all the wrapping, creates the token, passes it to fun, and returns it to the caller as well so they can share it.
 
user3010322
Hm.
 
@BartekBanachewicz "nicely" - what does that mean
 
user3010322
Curiously, what should the passing convention be? Last parameter?
 
12:49 PM
If you want you can enforce separation between cancellable and canceller by making two kinds of token: one that is readonly and can only test for cancellation, and another that is writeonly and can only cancel. Not sure if it's worth it, though.
 
@BartekBanachewicz fascinating
 
@ThePhD Yeah, not sure about that, hence my edit.
 
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes Probably not worth it, since self-cancellation is a thing that can happen...
 
user3010322
I mean, if you want to make it readonly,
 
user3010322
could just take it by const parameter
 
user3010322
12:51 PM
Leaves it up to the user, which is always a nice thing.
 
user3010322
This also makes it easier to implement a cooperative Sleep
 
I guess requiring something like Callable<void(token)> should do.
 
user3010322
Just take an optional<const CancellationToken&>
 
A cancellable_future might be another option that also allows returning a value.
But I'd leave that for a second phase.
 
user3010322
cancellable_future is probably easily implemented by using std::promise/std::packaged_task and then just checking if the exception == CancellationException
 
user3010322
12:53 PM
... Though that doesn't help in hte scenario where cancellation is just checked by boolean.
 
You can do some magic with thread_local to avoid the need to pass the token to the new task, but I'd avoid it.
 
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah... none too keen on that.
 
holy fucking shit it's so hot here I'm melting
 
@ThePhD If you just check the boolean and stop, you have to return something anyway.
 
user3010322
I did think of it, though.
 
user3010322
12:54 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ooh, right.
 
user3010322
But if you have a void function and you cancel, but return void... there's no way to distinguish between "stop 'cause canceled" and "stop 'cause finished"
 
@ThePhD The task can decide if there's an important distinction. That's why I said to keep both the boolean and the throwing.
 
user3010322
... Guess I'll just stick that boolean on the cancellable_future then.
 
@sehe they are working on AI/emotion recognition apparently. I'd wager something around image processing and stuff like that, perhaps some mathematical models of emotions, whatever.
 
@DeadMG :'( I know
not quite as bad as Berlin was though
 
user3010322
12:58 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Makes sense.
 
fuck me I was melting my balls of in the shade
 
user3010322
Without the cancellation tokens, this is actually working really well, surprisingly.
 
Be an angel and write ; after each class declaration. This is not Java. — Bathsheba 7 mins ago
 
Xeo
... why the fuck doesn't he just edit that in himself
 

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