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12:00 AM
Look at the transcript for yesterday or whatever
It's been discussed
 
user1804599
lol you deleted answer.
 
No, we did
 
@Rapptz Oh dear.
 
user1804599
inb4 metarage
 
All that anger can't possibly be healthy.
 
12:00 AM
@rightfold I so hope so
 
ok fellas, i'm out catching up on sleep in advance
 
user1804599
@CatPlusPlus :33
 
aren't you all overreacting a little?
 
I think Scott or Herb described PIMPL without indirection, but they didn't recommend it. Basically, you allocate N bytes of memory regardless of which implementation you choose, and you emplace the object directly in those N bytes. Of course this wastes space if sizeof(IMPL) < N, and it forces a recompilation if sizeof(IMPL) > N, so it defeats the whole purpose of PIMPL.
 
really just yesterday?
 
12:01 AM
no.
 
Define "overreacting"
We're making fun of shitty posters, as usual
 
it's a naked new... hello? SO is full of this shit
 
ok ic
 
user1804599
@FredOverflow not the whole purpose of PIMPL.
 
@FredOverflow Exactly - it defeats the point, so it's not really PIMPL ;P
 
12:01 AM
ultimately, his code is terrible, he deserves to be downvoted, and the only extra bit going on is the part where he rages at us.
 
@rightfold Most of it.
 
@Griwes It is PIMPL
 
user1804599
It depends on why you are using PIMPL.
 
You don't get stable ABI, that's all
 
@CatPlusPlus It's HLPIMPL.
Highly limited one.
 
12:02 AM
hahaha
 
I don't think Riot hires competent people.
 
all aboard the naked-new crusade
 
Language should support that IMHO, just like Objective-C.
 
we have a long journey ahead of us
 
@Jefffrey SO is shit, that doesn't mean it's a good thing to tell new people
 
12:03 AM
@Nils Why?
 
@Jefffrey Who gives a shit about how shitty his code is, the issue is that he's defending it and calling everyone an imbecile for disagreeing with him.
 
language support for PIMPL can't change the semantics of PIMPL and implementing it as a library is easy.
 
Just indirect the implementation
The problem with C++ is value types
 
You cannot use std::make_unique in school assignments because the teacher probably doesn't even know C++ was ever standardized.
8
 
Why is it limited? As long as the space reserved is big enough for a pointer it can eventually be a class forwarding to a heap allocated object if needed.
 
12:04 AM
ooh stackexchange.com still uses the old top-bar! bliss!
 
@FredOverflow lol
 
user1804599
@FredOverflow Make yourself the teacher.
 
@rightfold he is
 
user1804599
“Yourself” in the general sense, fool.
 
> the teacher
 
12:05 AM
ooo, how deep
 
C++ teachers? Many of them still seem to tell students to use std::cin.eof().
 
in Turbo C++
 
@DietmarKühl Those are modern C++ teachers
 
including <iostream.h>
 
user1804599
With <conio.h>.
 
12:05 AM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit lol Turbo C++, I use Watcom C++ ;)
 
and system("pause")
 
@DietmarKühl Mine was telling us that it is perfectly sane to use an object after calling its destructor.
 
@FredOverflow Wat? Com again?
 
lol
@Griwes It is if by "use" you mean "call placement new on it".
 
@FredOverflow Obviously not.
 
12:06 AM
As far as terrible puns go, that was ultraterrible
(All puns are terrible)
 
I am not sure he is even aware that placement new is a thing.
But eh, his presentations are from '97.
 
@rightfold What's wrong with <conio.h>? You can make cool ASCII games with kbhit and gotoxy!
 
At least it's not ncurses
 
@DeadMG Header files are a PITA on their own, but what sense does it make to have private data in headers?
 
@Nils Since concrete data types.
 
12:08 AM
One of the funniest things he said was something along the lines of "Stroustrup writes a book, and then ISO writes a formal standard, but ISO must follow everything Stroustrup writes in his book!".
 
@Griwes: fortunately, that is not the case!
 
and 1.. 2.. 3.. metapost
 
hum @FredOverflow?
 
Let's not get too deep into OO fanboy discussions. privates in header files is not the real problem. The real problem is header files.
 
user1804599
Vlad has no account on Meta Stack Overflow.
 
user1804599
12:09 AM
He probably doesn’t even know it exists.
 
he will in few minutes, i believe
 
user1804599
@FredOverflow silly Germans starting bodies without capitalisation.
 
well, I think it's an advantage for me that basically noone in my uni knows C++, there will be nobody to actually check my thesis about concepts and some TMP, go me
 
@rightfold What are you talking about? I started the email with "Dear"!
 
@DietmarKühl What's wrong with that? I use it (once in a while, anyway).
 
user1804599
12:11 AM
It’s both illogical and ugly.
 
@ScarletAmaranth You can post your thesis here if you want it ripped apart and destroyed.
 
Of course, not as a condition for a loop to read to end of file, but still...
 
@FredOverflow yeah was about to say I'd rather not post it here ^^
 
@JerryCoffin: I'm using std::cin.eof() as well but only to see why the condition failed. However, many people use it to control their loops.
 
What's the topic of your thesis?
 
user1804599
12:13 AM
@FredOverflow C++.
 
> my thesis about concepts and some TMP
 
You don't write a thesis about C++ and TMP. You use C++ and TMP for some concrete goal.
 
@FredOverflow unspecified yet actually, working title is Predicates on C++ templates
 
...so type traits?
 
no, not really, I will get into the semantic part as well, it's a bad title
 
12:15 AM
@ScarletAmaranth: as in concepts?
 
@rightfold that's how I found out stackexchange.com uses the old top bar ;P
 
user1804599
LOL we had a potential intern who emailed this to us:

for school i need to find a company where i can intern. my cv is attached.

And that was pretty much it (except it was in Dutch). No capitalisation, no further description or anything. Not even “Dear <the guy who handles this stuff here>,”
 
@DietmarKühl yes, yes, I will have to work on the title a bit :P
 
@FredOverflow gotoxic
@rightfold And? Did they give you the internship?
 
user1804599
Are you crazy?
 
12:16 AM
@rightfold Are they?
 
@rightfold How old is he?
 
@rightfold: concise, up to the point, no fluff -> great results!
 
user1804599
“Oh hey I’m not interested at all just gimme the internship ASAP kthxbye.”
 
user1804599
@FredOverflow I don’t know. We didn’t even bother to open the CV.
 
@rightfold He could have been the next Zuckerberg for all you know.
 
12:17 AM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit We don't need another facebook.
 
I think I will actually conjure something like Syntactic and semantic requirements on generic types or some such, but I'd prefer keeping the title short(er)
 
Wooo Xcode puts all the errors at the correct location in the source code, no more manual searching!
 
@ScarletAmaranth: the worrisome part is that the predicates part sounds somewhat like Concepts Lite which, in my opinion, miss the point of concepts.
 
@FredOverflow They said we didn't need another Expert Sex Change
@DietmarKühl They didn't really understand the whole concept, huh
 
user1804599
I want to change my sex from none to much.
 
12:19 AM
@rightfold You can only change from Nothing to Just sex.
 
Bah I just decided that Pimpl is actually fucking terrible.
 
user1804599
@FredOverflow Nothing? Does that mean I’ll be bottom?
 
in Functional Programming, Apr 9 at 16:53, by FredOverflow
> (_<_) is too hieroglyphic. It looks like an emoticon of someones bottom.
 
@rightfold: sex with two people => threesome; sex with another person => twosome; sex alone => handsome
 
user1804599
@Nils Follow TDD and your design will be simpler.
 
12:20 AM
@rightfold Looks ok to me except for the capitalization.
 
@rightfold Since when do you believe in TDD?
 
I wonder if anybody ever used unity builds?
 
user1804599
@JohanLarsson We usually expect something more like this:
 
@rightfold what?
 
@FredOverflow Everyone should believe in TDD
 
12:21 AM
@Nils Agreed, pimpl sucks. I try to avoid it when I can.
 
user406009
How does one actually do TDD in C++? It seems like mocking anything would become a huge pain quickly.
 
How integral is mocking to TDD?
 
@Lalaland Indeed there is an intrinsic friction between TDD and C++
 
@DietmarKühl I would partially agree, but I don't think they're useless, maybe calling them concepts lite is a bit of a stretch... still, writing expression templates VS having some way to clearly impose syntactic requirements (something like {a == b} -> bool; sort of thing)
 
"Modern C++ with TDD" is not a bad book
 
user1804599
12:23 AM
Dear @JohanLarsson,

Currently I am studying computer science at <school>. I am interested in <bla bla bla>.

Yours truly,
<my name>
 
@FredOverflow I'd say very common. (In C#)
 
@FredOverflow Almost essential, although you can do TDD without mocking
There are different schools
 
Mocking feels like a waste of time to me, but I don't have much experience in mocking.
 
Tests without mocks are the best ime
 
But mocking is the prevalent way of isolating units
 
user1804599
12:24 AM
@Jefffrey TDD is following the three rules of TDD.
 
@Jefffrey I was about to star that ^^
 
user1804599
@FredOverflow Since I tried it.
 
user1804599
It’s nice to see your program working immediately.
And to know immediately once you break something.
 
@rightfold so polite, I don't do dear and yours truly, would not feel honest with a random.
 
@rightfold It would have been cool if you had received that mail verbatim, with the bla bla bla part :)
 
12:24 AM
Mocks allow you to replace an entire object graph with one fake object and control its behavior. They basically allow you to perform unit testing.
 
i never remember acronyms
 
user1804599
@FredOverflow :D
 
Unit testing without mocks is more "cluster testing"
 
i had to look up "pimpl" 4 times this week
 
Bah who of the famous great coders uses TDD? None I can remember?
 
12:25 AM
@Nils Robert C. Martin
 
user1804599
UNCLE BOB! <3
 
Who of the retartds uses TDD humm..
 
@ScarletAmaranth: I'm not saying they are useless. Being able to express constraints in code rather than documentation isn't bad. However, explicitly concentrating only on structural is the wrong direction (it is possible to shoehorn explicit model declarations into the system, e.g., by explicitly testing a specific trait).
 
yeah that's a retarted Java programmer
 
@Nils Me!
 
user1804599
12:25 AM
@Nils Me!
 
user1804599
It makes you think more carefully about the design.
2
 
@Nils Me
 
@Nils lol. Ok, discussion is over
 
user1804599
It will automatically be testable (and thus decoupled and modular) if all you do is following the rules and using common sense.
 
@DietmarKühl sure, I didn't want to make it sound as though I had thought you considered them useless. Also, I still reckon that the "definition" they provide, something like concepts = constraints + axioms provides a useful mental model.
 
12:27 AM
By forcing you to write tests first it forces you to think of your SW in terms of usage, and that shapes the architecture and design of your SW
 
Well not sure about that
 
user1804599
Do you know what TDD is?
 
about the decoupling
 
wat
 
Decoupling is one of the main advantages
 
12:28 AM
@rightfold That's the thing for me
 
Only newbs need to follow *-driven-development rules. When you are a good software developer, your code is modular and flexible, and inherently unit testable, and you're constantly making sure each unit works as you write it.
 
yes I read Kent Becks book
 
Which was very weak
 
@Nils You managed to misspell "retards". And "retarded".
6
 
12:28 AM
@Nils If you mean "TDD by example", that is just a very basic introduction
 
user406009
How do you decouple things in C++ without everything becoming either a template or a unique_ptr?
 
user1804599
1) You are not allowed to write any production code unless it is to make a failing unit test pass.
2) You are not allowed to write any more of a unit test than is sufficient to fail; and compilation failures are failures.
3) You are not allowed to write any more production code than is sufficient to pass the one failing unit test.
 
user1804599
^ This is best thing evarrrrrrrrr.
 
@Lalaland Inheritance, unfortunately :(
 
He sells a bloody book and did not even manage to learn Python for that.
 
12:29 AM
@Lalaland By swapping out TUs for stubs and mocks
 
user1804599
@Lalaland not, because you use templates.
 
@rightfold Let me guess: you found out about TDD today.
 
@rightfold I'll just write non-compiling tests with missing semicolons :D
 
user1804599
@EtiennedeMartel No, not today, silly.
 
And with Python you probably need UTs for everything, because of the lack of static typing.
 
user1804599
12:29 AM
About a week ago!
 
lol
 
@rightfold Yeah, I figured as much.
 
user1804599
@FredOverflow Silly, pointless, unserious and won’t get you any further.
 
@FredOverflow You can't make them compile by writing production code :)
 
Radek does FOTM-driven development. Where "FOTM" stands for "Flavor of the Month".
 
12:29 AM
@rightfold It's a little OTT. But the principle is noble.
 
i feel like writing everything with templates now
 
user1804599
@Lalaland TDD in C++: template-driven development.
 
@FredOverflow I have that too
 
yeah that's got to be the best thing ever
 
@rightfold Unit testing can't guarantee you well-written, maintainable code, and those guidelines may encourage not bothering with that pesky stuff.
 
12:30 AM
I go to bed, night
 
user1804599
@LightnessRacesinOrbit but it helps.
 
@rightfold It helps if you follow the guidelines until you stop following them.
 
user1804599
Don’t stop following them. vOv
 
45 secs ago, by Lightness Races in Orbit
@rightfold Unit testing can't guarantee you well-written, maintainable code, and those guidelines may encourage not bothering with that pesky stuff.
 
user1804599
Then you’re not disciplined and you suck.
 
12:31 AM
What?
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Unit testing != TDD
 
user1804599
Good luck doing TDD without doing TDD.
 
What I'm saying is that the guidelines promote require not bothering with anything more than the bare minimum needed to make a test pass.
 
> You racka disciprine!
 
@AndyProwl Um, yes, I'm well aware. I'm responding to the guidelines rightfold posted about unit tests.
 
12:32 AM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Those are the guidelines for TDD. You answered "Unit testing can't guarantee...
 
user1804599
Why do you care about formatting?
 
user1804599
The pesky stuff takes so much time.
 
@AndyProwl Each single one says "unit test" in it.
 
Which is true. Unit testing alone can't guarantee those things. TDD can
 
@AndyProwl I suggest reading them :)
 
user1804599
12:33 AM
> FINGER DEEPER IN THE BORDERLINE
 
Doesn't matter. Unit testing exists even without TDD
 
user1804599
> RELAX, TURN AROUND AND TAKE MY HAND
 
user1804599
Unit tests are part of TDD.
 
If you do unit testing without doing TDD, then your risk to fail is higher
 
@AndyProwl Yes, I am well aware of that.
 
user1804599
12:33 AM
@sehe Do you do TDD?
 
user1804599
 
I was making a response to what rightfold said. Don't need a lecture on stuff I already know that has nothing to do with what rightfold said.
 
user1804599
Also where’s my baby @BartekBanachewicz?
 
user1804599
I asked you a question earlier today sweetheart.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Rightfold said "follow TDD". You answered "unit testing can't guarantee XYZ"
 
12:34 AM
@AndyProwl That wasn't what I was replying to..
@AndyProwl If you click the little arrow at the left of each SO chat message, you can see what previous message it was in response to.
 
user1804599
Unit testosteron.
 
user1804599
Test test test testicle.
 
I used to have a shirt that said "red green refactor"
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit It was in response to Uncle Bob's three laws of TDD
 
user1804599
 
12:36 AM
@AndyProwl Yes, each of which specifically, clearly and explicitly renders laws regarding when you can and cannot write production code based on unit tests alone. My response was that this is overly inflexible in my view. I don't see what any of the rest of it has to do with anything...
 
@EtiennedeMartel I have a TDD hat!
 
user1804599
lolwot
 
4 mins ago, by Lightness Races in Orbit
What I'm saying is that the guidelines promote require not bothering with anything more than the bare minimum needed to make a test pass.
That's it. I never claimed that "unit testing == TDD". So not sure what all this is about:
5 mins ago, by Andy Prowl
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Unit testing != TDD
 
Nevermind, we're not making progress
 
@AndyProwl That's horrific
@AndyProwl baffled
 
user1804599
12:37 AM
That’s because you’re not writing your tests first.
 
user1804599
Test the discussion before involving yourself into it.
 
can templates replace (and solve the same problems of) inheritance?
 
user1804599
Not always.
 
@Jefffrey Usually
 
fuck you :P
 
12:38 AM
teehee
 
user1804599
Do you really need dynamic polymorphism? No? Templates.
 
i see
 
It's not just about dynamic polymorphism
 
user1804599
Heterogenous dynamic containers are example of where you cannot really do without inheritance.
 
It's also about how illegible you don't mind your code becoming in the space of about an hour
 
12:39 AM
If you want to minimize compilation dependencies (which you really want to do when practicing TDD), then templates become often impractical
And readability as well, yes
 
@rightfold sometimes. I have tests. Always. But I usually write the tests as I have the code. Sometimes I regret that :/ Refactoring in C++ isn't nearly as smooth as in C# so I'll likely be more disciplined in the future
 
@rightfold I bet you could do it with an element type consisting of a functor
 
i wish template code was easier to write and to read
 
@Jefffrey TemplateCode<DifficultyLevelConcept>
 
@rightfold You can, with boost.variant
 
user1804599
12:40 AM
I wonder how testing will go at work. I’m going to force it down their throats.
 
user1804599
But Python meh dynamic typing. :c
 
or boost::any for that matter
 
@rightfold Good luck. I'm trying to do that and I'm encountering a huge resistance
 
user1804599
@AndyProwl imagine you don’t know all the types beforehand.
 
@rightfold OK then
 
user1804599
12:41 AM
@Jefffrey Pointless; can’t call any methods on them.
 
user1804599
Not really useful polymorphism.
 
@rightfold yes, with a template function
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I think concepts will make writing templates easier actually
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit You know, that's really not constructive. Owning a hat can't possibly be horrific, except for aesthetic reasons. That is surely not the topic.
 
wait
 
12:42 AM
@rightfold But if you do know all the types than this is relevant
 
user1804599
Also boost::any does inheritance internally.
 
actually no
 
There's also this Poly library
Which promises to solve the expression problem in C++
 
If you just want rant against anything/anyone that is remote TDD enthusiast/apologetic, go ahead, but don't expect it to be a sensible discussion then.
 
@sehe oh, so what is it that you actually write for work?
 
user1804599
12:43 AM
@ScarletAmaranth He backs up his code using the code itself. :|
 
@ScarletAmaranth Mostly it will make it easier to debug them
 
@sehe close it as "minimal understanding required" then
 
@AndyProwl that is like #1 concern, naturally
 
@sehe Was that for me? I was just calling the hat horrific... chill!
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Why? I never do that, unless it is clearly the case.
 
12:44 AM
@sehe I'm joking. Hundreds of other SO contributors do it on reflex atm. Tetchy this evening :(
 
what the hell
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit lol. You're sure that wasn't confusing anyone else then? You were pretty low on the arguments :/ I mistook the thing that looked like one, then :)
 
I... don't know what's going on right now.
Who's having an argument?
 
user1804599
The callee.
 
Very well done
 
12:46 AM
lol
 
user1804599
Also, stop discussing the previous discussion.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Nobody anymore, apparently. Doesn't mean that you haven't said what you said in the context in which you said it. To which I responded and you tell me to "chill!". So I explain.
@rightfold Too late^
 
o.O
So who likes space indentation?
 
user1804599
Any sane person.
 
Tabs cake
 
user1804599
12:48 AM
Certainly not Tabalak.
 
Why do you keep bringing up your spaces vs tabs discussion?
 
@ScarletAmaranth What rightfold says. Rewriting a backup agent core in portable fashion. The existing product has 2 code bases serving Win/Lin/Mac.
@Rapptz It's an explicit sign he's just provoking religious debates for no reason
 
@rightfold lol
 
user1804599
@sehe I SMELL DUPLICATE CODE YOU’RE VIOLATING THE DRY PRINCIPLE BAD SEHE
 
12:50 AM
@Rapptz Topic change, guaranteed effective (almost)
 
@sehe Mmm, why are they rolling it in C++?
 
user1804599
Today will be about the busiest day at work this year.
 
@ScarletAmaranth Good question. For the portability, maybe?
 
user1804599
Why am I not sleeping yet.
 
user1804599
inb4 /daknok
 
user1804599
12:51 AM
Goodbye guys. See you later!
 
@rightfold What reason is there for that?
 
@rightfold Night
 
Don't fall asleep now
that would be a waste of time
 
user1804599
@sehe We sell fireworks.
 
lolwut. "We"?
 
user1804599
12:51 AM
And tomorrow is like, the second last day of the year on which you are allowed to sell fireworks.
 
night darling
 
user1804599
Today you cannot sell fireworks because there are idiots who vote SGP and CU.
 
I've bought my fireworks already! Al of 5.65€, excluding the fuse
 
user1804599
Where did you buy them?
 
@sehe I wouldn't know
 
12:53 AM
@ScarletAmaranth Better? You know, probably because it's so much safer? So much more convenient to do GUIs in C++?
 
@sehe ^^ alright alright, better was a poorly chosen word
 
@rightfold At the bicycle store down the road (~50m)
 
user1804599
What is it called?
 
No clue
 
user1804599
Ah. :P
 
12:54 AM
Even the wife doesn't know :)
 
user1804599
Welp, gotta sleep. See you all later!
 
user1804599
I’m probably going to shoot €200 of fireworks into the air this year.
 
Yuo were looking to see whether I was a registered offender then :/
 
Ask Jefffrey if he's seen sehe at any of the meetings
 
@rightfold 'sup?
 
1:18 AM
sleepz :)
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit what
 
@Jefffrey ;)
you will never live this down
 
:(
sleep time for me, see ya'll later
 
see ya.
 
1:22 AM
Hahaha Kung Fury already at 330 000$. It's happening!
 
> Kung Fury is a visually spectacular action comedy that has it's foundation in 80s cop movies.
Ugh. With $330,000 you'd think they could spend a day at school, for fuck's sake.
 
Have you watched the trailer before whining?
 
He's complaining about the grammatical error (it's vs its)
 
I know but my question still stands
 
No it doesn't
 
user3010322
1:46 AM
Weee.
 

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