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10:00 AM
Wait, never mind.
 
@DeadMG There is nothing like that. But there is stuff in src/...
 
So premake doesn't work (like VS) if two files have the same name?
 
Ambiguous :s
 
Though instead of giving some error like VS, it just tramples over them.
 
10:04 AM
VS is amazingly stupid that way.
 
hm, sec.
Might as well try
 
user1804599
Oh god wtf LLVM.
 
user1804599
> ld: library not found for -lLLVMSupport
 
user1804599
I just installed LLVM.
 
10:08 AM
lol
LLVM linker errors the bane of mah fuckin' life.
 
ninja handles it just fine
weird
 
user1804599
Yet llvm-config --libs all prints -lLLVMSupport.
 
I must be starving ... looked at the word 'buffer', but thought it read buffet :'(
2
 
my build.ninja file looks weird.. stupid os.path.join
 
@Rapptz Does ninja generate VS projects?
 
10:10 AM
build bin/lol.o: cxx lol.cpp

build bin/main.o: cxx main.cpp

build bin/lol\lol.o: cxx lol\lol.cpp

build bin/lol: link bin/lol.o bin/main.o bin/lol\lol.o
@R.MartinhoFernandes Nah.
 
user1804599
 % ls /usr/local/lib/ | grep LLVMSupport                              ~ macbook
libLLVMSupport.a
 
user1804599
Eh wat.
 
I hate Windows and their stupid \ for paths
6
 
eh
I don't see it as inherently more problematic than / for paths.
 
@Rapptz Mirroring the source tree in the object tree is so... basic :'(
 
10:11 AM
infact, the way I see it, Windows is the better system here, since they are flexible and will handle both / and \ , whereas Unix machines cry a fuckin' death if they see a \ .
 
Xeo
Don't try to codify \
It just makes markdown cry
 
user1804599
Oh.
 
user1804599
I had to specify that I want static libraries in Waf.
 
@DeadMG One time when using SCons, I had wanted to run the executable after I finished. So on Linux I could just do path/to/file and it works okay. But when I tried to do the same on windows, it kept erroring out on me (despite the fact that / for paths works okay with most commands) until I switched to \.
 
The \ comes from IBM DOS.
 
Xeo
10:13 AM
@DeadMG For some definition of "handle". Auto-completion doesn't work in the shell if you use forward slashes, for example.
 
Windows developers didn't like it at first and added the option to use forward slashes instead.
However, this option no longer exists.
 
wow, Stroustrup’s C++14/C++17 slides are really, really unclear
 
@Xeo Eh, in my experience, almost all utilities handle / just fine.
 
unreadable in isolation :/
 
@KonradRudolph Have you been put in isolation?
 
10:14 AM
@StackedCrooked Without hearing his presentation, I mean
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well.. that's just how I do it with my bootstrap.py thing :s
It's easier and.. works. So I don't have issues with it
 
maybe even Stroustrup does not know what's going to be different in C++17
 
@KonradRudolph Those are the worst kinds of powerpoint slides
I don't even get how they can write it that way
 
besides you might not be doing C++ in 2017, why so concerned?
 
10:15 AM
@KonradRudolph why would you do that? or are you just reviewing the slides after you've seen the pres?
 
@Rapptz Actually, no, they are the best kind. That’s how all slides are supposed to be. But Stroustrup’s slides are just wall-of-text-y enough that you think you might get by without hearing the presentation
@ArneMertz I have no idea where the slides even come from, somebody posted them in the chat yesterday and they look intriguing, but bat-shit insane
void sort(Ran p, Ran q); — Seriously, how is the compiler supposed to know what Ran means?!
 
@Rapptz slides are not meant to be just read. They are meant to support a presentation, not replace it.
 
@KonradRudolph I might be misunderstanding because I didn't mean that just talking off the slides is a good thing.
 
And then he posits that using Randon_access_iterator{Ran}; magically solves this. Wut?
 
@ArneMertz Ah see. You got confused by what I meant too. :s
 
10:18 AM
@KonradRudolph Because that retarded syntax expands to template<Random_access_iterator Ran>.
 
Is there any way to verify/determine that Bitbuckets POST Hook actually fired or not , and what was the error it encountered ? Any help please ?
 
Meh, fuck premake.
 
Ugh. I don't like Retarded_case :(
 
(Not to mention the retardedness of casing of Random_access_iterator.)
 
Can they please drop it :( it looks awful
 
10:18 AM
Fuck whoever writes build systems but apparently never had to use one.
 
@Rapptz high five
 
@Rapptz so what did you mean then?
 
@Griwes So we have just declared Ran in global namespace? That sounds retarded.
 
@KonradRudolph No, it's a template!
 
@ArneMertz Slides that you can't understand in-context and off-context are bad slides.
 
10:19 AM
@Griwes What is?
 
Why the hell is there no verbose mode that shows the command-lines when building?
 
I believe you have a spurious ;.
 
How am I to find out why my lib is not linked :(
 
I believe it's supposed to be Randon_access_iterator{Ran} void sort(Ran p, Ran q);.
 
@Griwes No, it’s in the slides, and I think it’s supposed to be there.
 
10:19 AM
Uh-oh.
 
Xeo
@KonradRudolph template<Random_access_iterator Ran> void sort(Ran first, Ran last)
 
If so (and if it's not just a typo), it's even more retarded.
 
@Xeo Yes, that I understand, but Stroustrup goes one step further.
And the slides actually make it clear that this is not a typo
 
He's just batshit insane.
 
Xeo
slide link?
 
10:20 AM
@Rapptz yeah but Konrad was only saying they were bad off-context - nothing about their in-context qualities
 
here’s the full code on one slide:
 
maybe he wishes you can do using Randon_access_iterator{Ran}; in C++17
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Can't you run make itself with the verbose flag?
 
using Mergeable{For,For2,Out};
// …
void merge(For p, For q, For2 p2, For2 q2, Out p);
 
Uh oh.
 
10:21 AM
:s
 
Xeo
@KonradRudolph Eh, weren't those directly next to each other?
 
If that code is ever legal C++ I swear I will stop using the language for good.
 
@DeadMG No such thing. Make shows everything by default, but the Makefiles premake generates make the effort to hide them :(
 
@Xeo No! Hence the “//…” which Stroustrup put in the slides, not me!
 
So I need to look at the actual Makefile.
 
Xeo
10:21 AM
1 min ago, by Xeo
slide link?
 
The only thing to be said now is:
@gregcons @bretkuhns Throwing a curtain in front of a template and saying "look, no template here!" doesn't make it not a template.
 
Xeo
Oh, I thought it was about his talk yesterday
 
Oh wait, there's --just-print.
@DeadMG Good shout.
 
@KonradRudolph Well, I guess the intention is clear, but dragging those semi-typedefs into the global namespace looks ugly indeed
 
10:23 AM
@gregcons Hiding the genericity is a feature, IMO. I have coworkers that run and hide when they see template<> in code.
wot..
sigh
 
Another retard :P
 
So that's actually going to be in C++? ._.
First Retard_case and now this?
 
@ArneMertz Which is why I suspect Bjarne isn’t actually proposing that, and consequently that the intention is anything but clear
 
Xeo
17 hours ago, by Xeo
void sort(Container& c) want
 
@KonradRudolph If that code is ever legal C++ and I ever get my (currently vaporware) C++ compiler to be up-to-date with the standard, it will surely not support that clusterfuck.
 
10:24 AM
@Rapptz Oh gawd that's ridiculous. It's not a feature to fool hapless programmers.
 
Xeo
@KonradRudolph The Mergable stuff on his slide yesterday lacked the // ... IIRC
 
If they're hapless, they should run and hide.
@KonradRudolph That's bad.
 
@KonradRudolph It seems he did propose it, it's called Terse Template Syntax.
 
@KonradRudolph well its clear what the code is supposed to be saying. But I really hope he is not proposing that
 
@ArneMertz Is it?
 
Xeo
10:26 AM
@Rapptz nono, wait, wasn't the terse syntax what I used for sort above?
 
@Xeo Nope
 
It says "here's a quasi typedef", but what it really means is "here's a template".
 
It's called Terse Template Syntax
 
It's not clear at all.
 
Then again, it’s funny that C++ templates is apparently now going in a direction that I’ve been toying for > 5 years (in another language) …
 
10:26 AM
(Which one?)
 
I really really do not want this
 
I think the committee might be on drugs.
 
@Griwes I think so. It says "I declare three quasitypes that have to fulfil that concept"
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Just a gedankenexperiment, I’ve been working on a toy language dubbed “Caliph” on and off (recently more off) for ~ 13 years.
 
@ArneMertz And hides the part where it declares a template.
 
10:27 AM
Oh man what if it gets accepted and becomes reality
 
/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libX11.so.6: could not read symbols: Invalid operation
 
@KonradRudolph Oh, your own. I have the same, and it is called "Halcyon".
 
Here's the discussion Bjarne had for feedback: groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msg/concepts/fN4kAx8r7PE/…
 
Xeo
@StackedCrooked Bjarne likes to throw pictures all over the place in his slides.
 
10:29 AM
 template Mergeable{For,For2,Out}
 void merge(For p, For q, For2 p1, For2, Out oo)
I think this one is fine.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I kind of dropped after seeing Scala … it’s like Martin Odersky had drilled directly inside my head (but overlooked the big sign that said “statically compiled”)
 
Xeo
@Rapptz Yeah, that's the short form he showed in yesterday's talk
 
I don't like it still
 
> The attendees were massively in favor of Concepts Lite (about 130 for and none against),
Didn't some people here in the lounge hate Concepts Lite?
 
I hate the dumb casing, and would rather get full fledged Concepts rather than Concepts Lite.
 
10:34 AM
@StackedCrooked Attendees at GN?
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes ACCU
 
His GN slides mention examples that Concepts Lite cannot address properly!
 
> Yesterday (Friday, April 12), I gave a talk on thoughts about C++14 to about 130 people at ACCU.
@R.MartinhoFernandes ACCU
 
From the link posted by @Rapptz above.
 
Xeo
10:35 AM
@StackedCrooked Yeah - it's not enough. :/ You can kinda already do what we get with Concepts Lite through EnableIf, the only thing that would be really nice, imo, is concept-names in place of auto and template parameter names.
Also, concept_maps. Fuckers.
 
Yeah I was looking up the incredibly bad template syntax.
 
Xeo
I really don't get the problem the concepts group seemed to have with concept_maps.
 
@Xeo Didn't Bjarne show some "shorthand syntax" examples yesterday where the name of the concept was used as parameter type?
 
Xeo
I even read something about archetypes and virtual functions and shit.
@StackedCrooked Ya
12 mins ago, by Xeo
17 hours ago, by Xeo
void sort(Container& c) want
 
Since apparently nobody in the audience voiced any dissent, here goes: Concepts Lite are a bad idea. #GoingNative2013 http://chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/11623891#11623891
 
10:38 AM
@Xeo Isn't that the same as what you want ("concept-names in place of auto")?
 
Xeo
@StackedCrooked Yeah, but that's imo the only good part about Concepts Lite
 
sbi
@thecoshman That is a very warped idea of "good", then.
@TonyTheLion Dussmann's.
 
@Xeo The bad part being the lack of concept maps?
 
Xeo
The not-good part being that you can already do everything Concepts Lite brings with enable_if :/
 
10:39 AM
Concepts Lite brings syntax and error messages. Period.
 
Xeo
@Rapptz Yeah, and I can't comment because those fuckers won't accept me into the mailing list. :/
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Doesn't it also bring overloading by concept?
 
@Xeo Given the sort of things you see in the Asylum, it's not surprising they are wary.
@StackedCrooked We have that already. It only brings syntax for it.
 
Xeo
I even pointed out that I'm the author of N3617 which was discussed in that thread!
 
So basically it's enable_if as a language feature.
 
10:41 AM
Wow, who would have thought that @sbi is a political activist
 
@KonradRudolph Doesn't surprise me tbh.
He's always been very outspoken.
 
@Xeo At least someone voiced our concerns. :O
 
sbi
@KonradRudolph I am what?
 
@StackedCrooked Yeah, not really, true. That man has a Schrebergarten дача, after all.
 
@sbi I don't mean any of this is in a negative way!
@KonradRudolph TIL about дача...
 
sbi
10:44 AM
@StackedCrooked I don't care which way it's meant (I do what I do for a reason, so fuck dissenters!), but I wonder about the wording.
 
@StackedCrooked There doesn’t seem to be an English word. “allotment” just doesn’t quite cut it
 
@StackedCrooked And the type traits we build with SFINAE. But yes, it's blessing SFINAE with syntax. (which is good, but feels meh, and I'm not sure if it really makes it easy to add the good stuff later)
 
Xeo
> I suppose we'll need special rewrite rules.
 
@KonradRudolph It seemed to me it meant a "glass house" for growing vegetables in. (Don't know the English word for this.)
 
Xeo
Good thing I listed those rewrite rules in my proposal already :D
Andrew and Bjarne were really dismissive in that thread though, and apparently without actually reading much into the paper.
 
sbi
10:46 AM
@KonradRudolph This does describe the real thing, though.
@StackedCrooked ^
 
Xeo
Gaaah, Bjarne's message in that thread is always making me rage
> I am having a hard time convincing myself that
(1) optimizers can consistently and without heroic efforts implement []f without runtime overhead
Bullshit if he had read into the paper atleast a bit :|
 
@Xeo WTF, isn't there a perfectly simple syntactic transformation?
 
Xeo
Yes
 
sbi
@Xeo If I have learned something in the last few months, then that being enraged is no use, and usually even detrimental, when applied to someone who disagrees with you from a highly accepted position he's been having for years or even decades.
 
You can actually macro it in C++14.
 
10:50 AM
@sbi On a side note, I saw a lot of vegetable gardens in Takayama (one of my pics) in Japan.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes 'cept for operators
 
@Xeo Yeah, but that's only because of syntax issues.
 
Xeo
Also, members in a way
 
You can have three separate macros.
 
Xeo
Yeah
LIFT(id), LIFT_OP(+), LIFT_MEM(id)
 
sbi
10:52 AM
user image
9
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes It's even kinda possible to combine LIFT and LIFT_OP, as seen in the library example I linked in the updated proposal.
 
template < Mergeable {For,For2,Out} >
void merge(For p, For q, For2 p1, For2, Out oo);
 
@Xeo Yeah, his disbelief is ridiculous.
 
hrm, this would be actually neat.
 
@sbi vOv well... raising awareness... giving politicians a chance to look good by helping you, making them scared to not help?
 
10:56 AM
At least, it would require having some form of explanation of why the macros would not cut it. Without it, it just makes him look like a contemptuous asshole (if the explanation exists), or like a fool (if it does not).
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Wait, whose?
 
@Xeo The one you quoted above.
9 mins ago, by Xeo
> I am having a hard time convincing myself that
(1) optimizers can consistently and without heroic efforts implement []f without runtime overhead
 
Xeo
ah
But he didn't talk about the macro-form (or even saw it, apparently)
 
@Xeo Thus, fool.
 
Xeo
Whatever, I should try to find out why the fuck this iOS shit doesn't work. :(
 
11:01 AM
Wait, you're on iOS now?
 
Xeo
porting
And it's not looking good with the app dying at every other corner without a message
 
Isn't that "fastest possible delegates" thing UB?
 
Xeo
Why?
 
Dunno, just checking.
 
Xeo
No, I meant what specifically?
 
11:25 AM
@Xeo why didn't you post your arguments on the sg8 ML?
 
Xeo
45 mins ago, by Xeo
@Rapptz Yeah, and I can't comment because those fuckers won't accept me into the mailing list. :/
 
wut
Ok so send regular email
 
Xeo
I want to update the proposal first, and for that I don't have time atm
Otherwise I'd have sent it in for the pre-Chicago mailing
 
Sure but simple email explaining your initial paper might help as well
In any case, bjarne has been quite protective of his cocepts baby, see eg the venomous reaction to static if
 
Pounce on ...
 
11:33 AM
@TemplateRex It was accurate, not venomous.
 
sbi
@Xeo Whenever I have mailed him in the last 20 years, I have found Bjarne very responsive. Usually he replied within hours, sometimes minutes. Why don't you just send a polite email to him, explaining that for reasons you don't know you have been excluded from the discussion about your topic, tell him what your arguments are, and ask him to inject those into the discussion?
 
Xeo
Yeah, I plan to shoot some mails in the near future regarding the proposal - as soon as I have time to really think about it again
 
sbi
@thecoshman This comes at a great cost, though: chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/10?m=11614402#11614402
@Xeo Well, if you would have to rethink your thoughts before injecting them into the discussion, isn't it a good thing you cannot participate now? You might have made a fool of yourself, had you been able to.
 
Xeo
@sbi I wanted to participate some months ago, when I had the time
Awesome. Some part of the app load perfectly fine in isolation on the iPad, but together with the whole app it just dies. And it's the first thing that is loaded.
 
11:42 AM
@Griwes Well, after thinking about it I don't find it too bad hiding a template. Because conceptually it's just like declaring a function void f(SomeInterface& ) and not caring about the polymorphic behavior. The only difference is that one is doing the dispatch at compiletime via the concept's interface, the other at runtime via virtual functions.
 
Are there radio stations in denmark playing britney songs
 
11:54 AM
Anyone seen andy prowl around lately?
 
user1804599
Yum.
 
user1804599
Butter-flavoured lozenges.
 
@TemplateRex now you mentioned it, I have not seen that sweet potato for ages ...
 
Xeo
@TemplateRex a few days ago
 
Oh i thought he quit so
 
11:58 AM
that reminds me
 
@ÓlafurWaage So happy that HTML <BLINK/> has been removed from future standards
 
any hints of not-ThePhD?
 
@DeadMG On the chat project
 
He's alive, but doesn't tell why he Domagoj'd out.
3
 
11:59 AM
Phd's are overrated
 

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