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03:00 - 15:0015:00 - 00:00

3:00 PM
Hm. Newer knew that. Struggle to imagine why one would want that (other than confuse unprepared users with mirrored drawn man)
 
Most people don't, some people do.
shrug
 
@E_net4isonstrike probably messing with reconfiguration of my homelab once I get the vpn set up
 
@jmoerdyk Is that a voluntary thing to have a day off?
 
Sounds as fun as reinstalling Gentoo
 
@markalex It's a 'meta' avatar.
 
3:04 PM
@Mast nope, it's mandatory, and I hate it... having the Friday off does not compensate for the longer days, imho
 
@jmoerdyk I've seen people go with 4x9, but I wouldn't want to do 4x10 for a prolonged period of time.
Productivity would massively drop the last hours of the week.
 
I's only for June-July, they do give us the option of using vacation time to mitigate, I usually use 1 hour/day, so I can go home at the "normal" time. I tend to hit the productivity "wall" at about 3pm
 
@AdrianMole it is an odd feeling not hopping in the CV Queue
 
um what did i miss?
2
Does someone have a link to this "Specifically, moderators are no longer allowed to remove AI-generated answers on the basis of being AI-generated, outside of exceedingly narrow circumstances."
 
3:16 PM
When did this happen, Tempted to just join because close-vote-reviewers did. but would love a bit of info first.
 
@LindaLawton-DaImTo This was one of the main triggers: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/389582/…
 
Have they lost their mind. IMO its easy to spot ai generated anwsers
 
The verdict is still out on the mind thing.
 
Make sure to read the comments under that post. The public communication from the company is deceptive and dishonest.
 
@LindaLawton-DaImTo see relative links here. Specifically I recommend strike announcement, and personal POV of Machavity.
 
3:27 PM
theres going to be one heck of a mess without moderation.
 
@E_net4isonstrike It was severely tempting to flag that post as Rude/Abusive. Unfortunately, I had to content myself with downvoting.
 
@EJoshuaS-StandwithUkraine Here is another one to try such a strategy.
Or maybe just a delete vote, because frankly, it's not worth it.
 
personally i would like to go for the point of view that people are getting reputation points for information they did not supply. Unless you want to give the AI an account and give it all the points.
 
@E_net4isonstrike I kinda agree with Samuel's comment under linked post, but I can understand answerer too, if it's just a coping mechanism. Stress over this situation affects everybody in different way, so I wouldn't be so "judgy" of them.
 
It's still in bad taste. But whatev, we'll see what happens if someone tries that again.
 
3:34 PM
@LindaLawton-DaImTo and banner over ever such answer "It might be perfectly true, or just another hallucination. Proceed with this answer with caution" ?
Are there any built-in safeguards, that stop user from posting new answers if many their latest answers were downvoted?
Because if yes, this imagined chatGPT account would be semi-constantly banned.
 
I was thinking more something like community wiki
 
@markalex my understanding is yes, this exists, but no, in practice they wouldn't get banned due to receiving upvotes.
 
4:11 PM
@markalex The user is known to be borderline trolling. Or joking. If joking, they are a bit not tactful. One of their posts was to nominate for the mod elections (two elections ago?) and their "campaign promise" was that they would literally not do anything.
That nomination was removed from staff.
 
@E_net4isonstrike But on more serious note, I wasn't aware of this user's history. Sorry If I in turn was judgy here.
 
 
1 hour later…
5:20 PM
Hey everyone! Just trying to see what happened suddenly to SOCVR! :O
 
@PraveenKumarPurushothaman The room is in strike right now so no access to SOCVR for the duration.
 
Okies! :(
If I understand, SE has new policies that are hated by Mods and us? I am reading the related articles and posts to the strike.
 
The policy was the tipping point but the problem runs deeper. SE are showing very strong indication that they are losing touch with the community. The AI policy being exemplar of that attitude, yet it's not exactly a recent problem. All signs point that it was going to go even worse after the AI policy.
 
5:55 PM
Oh no!
 
John Scalzi's post today seems relevant Your Reminder that “AI” Will Just Flat-Out Make Things Up
3
 
6:11 PM
What is the consensus over answering questions while on strike?
 
My favorite AI-making-things-up still has to be the lawyer and the non-existent cases
it's going to be hard to top that one
 
@markalex Not sure there is a consensus, but the strike is on moderation activities. I don't think any version of the strike letter or Meta discussions have included asking/answering.
That would be more of a total site/network boycott instead.
 
Fair point. Thank you.
 
6:35 PM
Mostly regurgitation of said in article earlier today.
 
@markalex No consensus, I believe. The letter doesn't mention posting. But it does say "not limited to". I'm personally not posting. See my profile (chat/main) for the userstyle I use which blocks most interaction with the sites. That's not mandatory I made it for myself. Other people are also free to use it or adapt it, if they wish.
 
@VLAZ-onstrike- Yeah, I've seen your style. Nice idea. My question was born from a question on SO main by fellow user from SOCVR, and I was considering if I should answer to it.
 
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
But in process I found out that mentioned question has a caveat, and I'm not ready to answer it anyway :(
 
I personally don't want to contribute anything at all to SO/SE.
 
6:43 PM
I can understand this view.
 
7:22 PM
@ZoestandswithUkraine I love the CEO's claim in that one article's quote of "a small number of moderators (11%)" ... 11% means the amount of active moderators has been more than decimated (a term the media loves to abuse); ignoring the fact that that's also scores of people, at least... and the number is higher now... oops!
 
@TylerH Thanks for spreading awareness of proper decimation.
 
"11%" is just another example of abusing data to push an agenda that data doesn't support
2
 
@KevinB Lies, damned lies, and statistics
 
@TylerH We're up to ~16% of mods across the entire network.
 
7:56 PM
Nice!
 
So, here's some more agenda pushing stats. 539 - 27. It's 16% out of a group of 539, but in which about 512 were originally elected to handle less than half the total traffic across the network.
 
Sorry, may somebody explain this to slow kid in the class: when Philippe accused mods in racial bias, bias against whom was meant?
 
But maybe the 55% on Stack Overflow is more interesting to show.
 
i mean, did he accuse mods of bias at all? that wasn't my interpretation.
unless the phrasing in private said something entirely different
 
@markalex The public announcement of the policy has this, verbatim: "residents of specific countries"
 
8:01 PM
I'm not aware of private announcement.
 
everything publicly presented since last week accused the result to be biased, potentially blaming the tools of being biased, but, ofc, mods aren't using the tools alone so that's at best just a single data point among many
 
probably
it's at best a useless tangent
 
@E_net4isonstrike Yeah. May somebody suggest a country? When I read it I for some reason thought that it is about Indo-Pakistan region. But I have engaged in discussion a couple minutes ago, where I felt then it might be implied that white people with perfect English are oppressed by current state of banning.
 
@bad_coder Although I would not exclude influence from above the hierarchy or from key stakeholders, there would have to be a lot of rotten apples for that to be the case.
 
8:07 PM
@E_net4isonstrike MS can wield a lot of pressure by scaling down as a client or increasing prices as a provider.
They weren't considered the company with the largest "war chest" in the business for nothing...
Curation is dead.
Company takes hard line stance.
 
8:56 PM
ugh, sleeping during this debacle is clearly a mistake
you just wake up to a mountain of text to read
 
9:08 PM
 
@RyanM-Regenerateresponse time to start Sleepers Anonymous... I got the same feeling today
while you are here, I presume I can count you as [status-confirmed-on-strike]? :)
 
@RyanM-Regenerateresponse Yeah, but not sleeping is worse. Eventually.
Maybe we should just organise better. Everybody go to sleep at the same time.
 
@OlegValteriswithUkraine indeed, you could check the page and see my signature :-)
but yes, I can confirm I am not being impersonated by another moderator
I have offered to continue chat moderation if there aren't objections to it, but I'm not moderating the site.
 
@RyanM-Regenerateresponse yes, yes, but I am very anal about being 100% correct :)
@RyanM-Regenerateresponse not from me, certainly - btw, is there anything to do at all right now?
 
I think it's especially important to keep the community in chat running smoothly during the strike so that we can swiftly pick up operations again afterward
4
@OlegValteriswithUkraine a little bit. Fewer mods around emboldens trolls. In some sense, our presence deters a certain amount of misbehavior.
 
9:16 PM
@RyanM-Regenerateresponse fair enough. Well, as in general - folks do become more civil in presence of "authority", especially if said authority is not < insert political rant here >
@RyanM-Regenerateresponse I really hope that we can reach the "picking up operations" point soon
and speaking of confirmations - do you know of others who I can with certainty move to "striking" or "not striking" of the 11 left, @RyanM-Regenerateresponse?
 
9:38 PM
I'd prefer to let mods speak for themselves. Henry Ecker and Dharman have both publicly stated their bits, so I'll just quote them verbatim and allow that to be interpreted as you will:
in SO Close Vote Reviewers, yesterday, by Andreas detests censorship
@Dharman I see that you have not signed the strike letter, and I haven't seen you much these last days. Does this mean that you are not participating in the strike, and that your bots (DharmanBot) will remain active?
in SO Close Vote Reviewers, yesterday, by Dharman
I am not very active, so I doubt anyone will actually handle the reports
in SO Close Vote Reviewers, yesterday, by Dharman
The community will always find ways to share the knowledge. We have built a great site for the benefit of the programming community, but the site isn't about the community but rather about the information that we share. If SE inc. doesn't understand the value of the knowledge that we've put into the site, the community will find other ways to share this knowledge. It would be a shame if we lost all this knowledge we collected here to the flood of AI content.
I really hope SE changes its position on the new policy. If they revert it, we can still fight for the integrity of this site. As of n
in SO Close Vote Reviewers, yesterday, by Turing85
@Dharman So you are already "striking". 🙂
in SO Close Vote Reviewers, yesterday, by Dharman
I guess in a way I am
 
@RyanM-Regenerateresponse yeah, I am just trying to stay on top of things :) Thanks! I've been around for Dharman's statement, but, apparently, missed Henry's
 
correction, I cannot find Henry's
 
hmm, neither can I
 
either it was deleted or somewhere non-public
in either case not something I'd repeat
 
no worries - just checking if I missed anything. I don't like the idea of just lumbering everyone as "striking" if they just signed the letter, so there's no way to pull that data automatically from anywhere.
I am preparing for having ammo in case SE doubles down on the "just 11%" part.
 
9:51 PM
Put it this way: I am not aware of anyone who has signed the letter who is not striking
 
@RyanM-Regenerateresponse Confirmed the network spammer/troll who signed is also striking, then!
 
well, they're at least not doing anything useful, but then they never were ;-)
 
Do the staff even care that we're striking?
 
some most certainly do
 
@user16217248 Well, SE have said they are interested in negotiations and that they want to have this resolved as fast as possible.
 
9:56 PM
most probably do in fact
 
Well, that's a good sign I hope
 
And staff specifically the CMs are most likely really interested. I'm pretty sure they aren't really fans of this situation at all. But also...between a rock and a hard place right now.
 
Imagine it's hard to participate as an employee within the community when there's a ginormous elephant in the room
 
@user16217248 well, those that got sent into the flag mines most certainly do. And yeah, there's already been a couple of positive signs that the company is at least prepared to negotiate. We'll see how it all plays out.
 
You mean the CMs that have to review flag queues 10x as long as they originally were?
 
10:01 PM
10x?
10x 0 is still 0
 
@user16217248 10x as long as they were few days ago (or yesterday?). The flag queue has been a lot longer in the past. I don't think I can stress enough what good work the mods have done to shrink it to such a small size.
@KevinB Nah, a mod mentioned it somewhere but the flag queue was down to 140-ish items. Now it's 1400.
Or whatever numbers.
 
no, i mean prior to this were CM's handling flags?
i'd assume not
 
Without moderators, the staff will have much more work to do, in place of them.
 
hence 0
;)
 
Do the staff actually not review flags?
If not, then no one's flags will get processed at all if all the mods strike.
 
10:03 PM
well, there's before the strike, and currently, where two different things may be true
 
@user16217248 They can but normally they don't. That's what the mods are for. With that said, now they do. Not all and not as efficiently as mods. But they are taking on some of the flags.
 
my understanding is under normal circumstances cm's don't handle flags except in rare occasions (like in SG where it isn't yet public)
but we're not under normal circumstances atm
 
10:19 PM
That's correct, CMs generally don't handle flags outside of unusual circumstances, generally involving them being asked for assistance.
 
@VLAZ-onstrike- one of my pet peeves
 
@RyanM-Regenerateresponse Okay, I have confirmed with SE that I'm permitted to do this, so I will (again, barring someone persuading me not to).
 
@RyanM-Regenerateresponse No. Don't. I'll give you a peanut if you don't.
 
@RyanM-Regenerateresponse wdym you confirmed it with SE, is this something that needs confirmation?
 
@VLAZ-onstrike- there are so many better nuts that you could have offered
peanuts are bottom-tier nuts
(I know, I'm coming out with the hot takes here)
 
10:26 PM
I'll give you a wing nut.
 
what do you mean bottom-tier? :P
I'm eating some this very moment
I think it depends on the brand and how they were processed...
 
@RyanM-Regenerateresponse why would you need SE's permission to moderate chat all of a sudden?
 
...it's a long story, but it was vaguely suggested to us that there may be additional scrutiny of mod actions during the strike. As far as I'm concerned based on what I signed, no, I don't have to ask permission to moderate, as long as I don't break the rules I was already obligated to follow. And in the end, the clarifications that have been received do generally seem to confirm that this is in fact the rule as they understand it, too.
I'm inclined to give the benefit of the doubt on the vagueness especially since a lot of this communication was occurring over a weekend and was pretty quickly cleared up once Monday hit.
 
@Mithical indeed; 90 active mods at the moment, or 16.7% of the total network count
@RyanM-Regenerateresponse fair enough, although I don't see how a mod could be in trouble for only moderating part of the site while refusing to moderate other parts
after all there are many mods who refuse to moderate chat altogether
 
The general theory behind the concern is that if you aren't moderating then you shouldn't be accessing PII
which, uh, yeah.
that applies even when not on strike, and should be extremely obvious
 
10:37 PM
Yeah, seems a little silly. You are, by moderating chat, moderating.
 
There was some lack of clarity, possibly due to a metaphorical game of telephone, as to what the scope of the restriction was.
But in the end, it's been clarified and it is in fact the thing that makes sense.
 
But if they are concerned about that level of auditing/access control then surely they have logging configured to see that anyway (which I'm pretty sure they do based on published post mortems re: hacking events in the past)
Because I agree, having access to sensitive data and accessing it for proper reasons are separate things
but that shouldn't be a totally novel concern for the first time today, when mods are suddenly striking
"Oh no! These people have access to tons of quasi-sensitive data and are now mad! We need to worry about their access to it!" is a problem that should have been addressed 15 years ago when the access was granted in the first place.
Anyway, I'll get off the soapbox :-)
time to go home
 
One of the stated reasons for taking diamonds from inactive mods is that they don't want to have people around with access to sensitive data who don't need it
My assuming-good-faith guess is that someone asked "does this invoke that policy?" and the response was "no, they should keep the diamonds but maybe we should do, like, a quick audit now and then to make sure nothing looks awry"
and then a couple repetitions later it turned into a vaguely ominous warning until someone asked the original source again on Monday and it was clarified to "just don't break the rules and you're fine"
all speculation, btw
 
11:04 PM
aaanyway not trying to start drama over that ^^; I believe the staff members involved were acting in good faith and with the best interests of both users and moderators at heart
 
11:42 PM
@Andreasdetestscensorship they wanted there to be something overflowing its container so that Stack Exchange users would feel like they're in a familiar environment.
 
11:53 PM
@RyanM-Regenerateresponse I think that report is a bit... outdated :)
 
@Mast or the time I had to ask Bella to undestroy a user after I accidentally destroyed someone who had posted something that qualified as spam, but also had legit contributions 😬
(I sent them an apology mod message)
 
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