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14:00
but that's a technical detail
im sure you understood that kotlin example out of the box
@Wietlol really?
even though you never saw kotlin before (maybe)
@Wietlol yup, it's extremely similar to C#
and TS
and Java
and Scala
14:01
I dislike kotlin because it targets the JVM, with all of it's weaknesses. I'm still not content, even with the improvements I've seen in JVM 8 and 9.
@Zarenor dont worry
you dont have to target JVM
every statically-typed C-like language, maybe
you can target LLVM
or you can target JS if you prefer that
having the IDE (or compiler, not real clear which) analyze thread-safety is novel, but it's not the only language to do so. And it's not even impossible to write a C# analyzer to check that (excepting reflection, which probably breaks kotlin's guarantees, anyhow)
Does Kotlin have a "this" type for interfaces?
14:03
LLVM would work, probably
I think my point it, the reason I'm content on the .net framework is that it took a lot of the lessons learned from java having JITted runtime, and fixed a lot of those errors. Because it came later, it doesn't have to live with the baggage that Java has. And languages that target that surely get to target everywhere the JVM runs, but they pay a cost in performance and security as a result.
@KendallFrey no, its a request i made but im not sure when its gonna be added
only on interfaces though?
What do you mean only
@Zarenor still, Java runs faster than C#
@KendallFrey why not a thistype on classes?
you said a this type for interfaces
but classes can also use it
I don't think that's true, actually. As usual, it depends on your algorithm.
performance checks should use the same algorithms
14:09
@Wietlol I would use it mostly on interfaces
ofc a few would be faster on one while others would be faster on the other
but in general, Java still runs faster than C#
(On benchmarks game the C# comparison page lists C# as faster in 8/10 algorithms)
Which is the opposite of what you're arguing
@Zarenor last time I checked, it said 4 (.net) on 6 (jvm)
I literally checked before I wrote that
Like, you can check. Right now.
and someone made a blog post that he impoved some of the .net entries
im not sure how the rules apply to that
14:10
Which only proves my point.
The benchmarks game is a twofold game. 1) How can you tease your compiler into emitting the most time- and memory-efficient code to execute the algorithm as stated 2) Which language's compiler is best at optimizing for time- and memory-efficiency
Bottom of the page
(click on the language name under an algorithm heading to view the code)
Java

java 10 2018-03-20
Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment 18.3 (build 10+46)
Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM 18.3 (build 10+46, mixed mode)
C# .NET Core

2.1.200
"System.GC.Server": true
hmm... calling Java slow is a bit of an aggeggeration though tbh
I never did!
Don't straw-man words in my mouth
The regex-redux benchmark is weird. I guess it hits a specific bad patch in .NET. Didn't know the regex engine is C# is so slow.
14:15
I said the JVM has weaknesses that can cause performance issues, and they are inherited by other languages targeting the same runtime. That's a very different statement. You brought up Java, the language.
Unfortunately, the benchmarks game hasn't ccepted Kotlin or Scala as languages to be benchmarked
I'd be interested in the performance of them. But that wasn't my primary point. My point was there are a lot of things in the JVM that are stuck because of compatibility with Java 1. the .Net runtime has had several breaking-change versions to fix some of our issues that were similar
@Zarenor im wondering if there will be much differences
they are supposed to compile to the same bytecode
the only difference would come from cases where the implementation of a particular algorithm would be different
And anything that targets the JVM is stuck with that baggage. I also have other issues with the JVM outside of performance. But I'm not interested in dissecting them here. For the majority of what I do, at work and for fun, the .net runtime makes the right compromises between ease-of-use, cross-platform availability, and performance. When it doesn't, I write Rust.
That's probably the logic of the benchmarks game, but if you can write similar algorithms and get identical bytecode, then Scala and Kotlin are really just syntax reprocessors and extra class libraries for Java, anyway
I'm also sorry for not including Scala. For example JVM doesn't have tail call optimization out of the box, but Scala compiler implements it.
scala has some interesting features that kotlin also doesnt have
the biggest advantage from Jvm dev imho is not a particular language, but more the interop
I like Scala and F# syntax nowadays.
14:20
The compilers must output different bytecode (in the same intermediate language), or they're not very useful is my point.
the seamless interop between the languages gives you a powerful toolkit, which can give you anything you want
Interop is great. Which is why I like C# and Rust. C# was always intended to be cross-platform, and Microsoft has made some huge strides lately in catching up to Java (who is still ahead). Rust targets to LLVM (6, currently), and is pretty focused on write-once-run-anywhere (with the necessary recompilation).
> C# was always intended to be cross-platform
I also think that really, libraries are all that need to be interop. The UI has to be rewritten anyhow, nearly every time. Different interaction methods and display conventions make UIs hard to translate
isnt that a difference between .Net framework and .Net core?
where .Net framework was not cross-platform and only since core came out, you have a way to write cross-platform applications in C#?
14:24
Microsoft initially targeted releasing .Net for Linux and Mac, and was turned down by the linux community (because they wanted open-source, reasonably), and Apple, because they wanted people writing Objective-C
Yeah. C# wasn't cross-platform. It even came with very Windows-specific features very early on.
Sure, mostly in CSharp. and Microsoft..
System.Windows
P/Invoke, COM objects, etc.
Hmmm. I wonder if System.Windows targets Windows...
14:26
WPF does indeed target Windows
Let's not pretend C# was not tightly coupled to Windows OS. It was, and has been for a long time. There was no way to run on Linux, nor Mac, nor anywhere else. That's all much more recent. Microsoft became less-evil over time and now we have .NET Core.
and .NET Core is fit
Easy there. I said exactly what I meant. Microsoft didn't intend that to be. You can go read up on the history, or not. They intended to release .Net runtimes for other platforms, and there wasn't interest. As Microsoft became less evil and more willing to open-source, they've become more accepted. That doesn't change what they intended two decades ago, or that they didn't execute on it
I'm not saying it was cross-platfrom. it wasn't. I wrote code on .Net 1, I know it wasn't usable anywhere but Windows.
tho C# was always interop with VB
I'm of an (unfounded) opinion that what spurred on .NET Core wasn't the need for Cross-Platform
14:31
Regardless. Not the point. We're multiple versions into .Net Core, which is cross-platform. We had Mono and Xamarin before that.
And I really was only talking about intent. Ballmer thought he was a maverick and would 'just win' with .net on just windows, when the other communities turned M$ down... He was pretty wrong.
Rudi, what do you think spurred Core, then?
I'm not saying it wasn't a part of it, obviously, but I just wouldn't be surprised if the main reason was the desire to slim down and be fresh
and frankly they've done an amazing job on both that goal and xplat
I'm not disagreeing with you. The BCL had a lot of trimming worth doing, so seeing it work out and also seeing them revisit long-standing objects and make them perform better, is great
I think they wanted to reduce the reliance on old win32 assemblies, which happened to enable them to go xplat. when they decided to actually try going xplat
Because everyone is fully aware there is some absolute shite in older windows APIs
14:42
You know, Ctrl+T in Visual Studio is nice, but only until you reach a certain mass of files.
Then it just starts behaving weirdly.
Exact match files get pushed down in favor of files that only share a few characters.
What is it meant to do?
Just jumps between files/classes/objects/etc.
Very nice to use.
After user have submitted vat registration form and it is been assign to officer,admin can reassign that vat form to
another officer
Question: whats the best way to add a GUI to a dotnet core executable?
You can't
14:44
@SebastianL Electron maybe?
api/vat/{id}/reassign
Not a desktop one anyway. You can turn it into an ASP.Net core site
Is my api represent a meaningful name?
That to me looks like reassigning the VAT ID itself
@SebastianL not yet you'll be able to in 2019
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/05/07/microsoft_announces_net_core_30_including_windows_desktop_applications/
@WilliamMariager that sounds interesting, even if it may be a bit overkill ^^
@LeeButler i am just reassigning vatid to different officer
but my endpoint uri doesnt look meaningful
I dunno. VS Code uses Electron. So does Discord.
They both run nicely.
Hahaha
@juanvan windows only or are they trying to get UWP onto mac and linux?
14:46
You must have a decent PC
We don't live in a world with 128 mb memory anymore.
End users don't always have good PCs
I have an average PC.
VS Code runs a bazillion times better than VS
14:47
And when every developer has the mentality of "Electron doesn't use that much", suddenly end users have 12 different electron apps
I agree that VS runs like shit, but that's because it's a behemoth
@SebastianL it's Windows only
@SebastianL Wait for dotnetcore 3? ;) They promised that WPF would be able to run dotnet core, albeit only on Windows
Better or faster? VSCode is not as bloated
Runs usually means speed I think.
But when people decide "Electron!" for a chat basic chat app, suddenly you've got huge amounts of (mainly just) memory wasted running a chrome instance to show some chat bubbles and a text box#
14:49
It obviously has less features.
Are you from a third world country Lee?
I could see Electron being an issue in that case.
No I'm from earth
But my 5 year old desktop has zero issues with Electron powered apps.
Is it a MAC?
Windows Machines don't last that long
It's a Windows machine
... I think my laptop might be 5 years old...
14:51
Does it have issues with Electron apps like Discord or VS Code?
And it's a windows machine, too
my MBP is 9yrs old
So I jsut looked up a basic laptop that people who aren't techy would use. It's an Intel pentium quad core laptop @1.1ghz, with 4GB of ram
Discord is pretty quick. I use VSCode, sometimes.
Mmmm. Yeah, the new pentiums
@LeeButler I'm sure that claim is backed up by something?
14:52
I bet the HDD is the bottleneck, followed by the CPU
@LeeButler one point one gigahertz are you fucking having a bubble
The first entry in this article, itself the first thing that comes up when I search "Cheap 2018 laptop"
Well, that aspire has an SSD. the biggest issue I have in my laptop is my HDD, and it's because it's a quite-full spindrive
Small Aspires have been a big part of the bargain laptop market for a while. Also
@LeeButler They obviously have a peculiar metric for "best" laptop. :P
14:55
It's "Cheap", that's a normal metric for most people
that pentium is advertised at 1.1GHz, because that's what it's TDP'd for. But it bursts up to 2.5GHz, which it will probably do anytime the CPU is taxed
Most normal PCs i've seen still come with mechanical drives
So like, any time 2sec after boot?
Most normal PCs I've seen come with 8GB memory.
14:55
It's anecdotal and useless though.
Where do you live
It'll do it for like 3 seconds, then thermal throttle to 1.1 again
Yeah, pretty much 'only when you need it' (ARK link here)
Well, Ireland now.
14:56
@LeeButler idk anyone that goes for a cheap laptop
That didn't format nicely
One of our clients has a tonne of laptops w/ 4GB RAM and they were told they were midrange
It makes me sad
It doesn't matter much though. Even that laptop should run Electron apps just fine.
Anyway. Windows will take up at least 1 gb of that

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