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5:57 AM
morning all
 
6:42 AM
hey @Sotos hey @everyone :-)
@zx8754 that s*cks :-(
 
7:03 AM
Good morning
 
7:27 AM
@DavidArenburg you'd be surprised ^^
@Jaap almost nobody wears helmet o_O
 
7:47 AM
@DavidArenburg that small cars is a special vehicle for disabled people; those are allowed on the bike paths
@Cath that's because helmets give a false sense of security, without helmets everyone behaves better
 
@Jaap a friend of mine's father was hit by a car, no helmet, he has no immediate memory ever since... not sure no helmet means safer, it just means more injured in case of accident... I wear an helmet and behave quite carefully, while I see a lot of people without helmet who are driving far from safely, those people think notheing can happen to them, hence the absence of helmet...
 
also: cyclist are protected by law against motorized traffic; how to behave around cyclist is incorporated in theory & practise exams for drivers license; most car drivers are cyclist too, so they already know how to handle such situations
 
@Jaap that's a big difference between Netherlands and France (and very likely what explains the difference in wearing or not an helmet ;-) )
 
@Cath I know; there aren't many countries where they take care of cyclists seriously
 
8:03 AM
I wish it was the case in France... but they try to improve "cyclist life" so maybe one day...
 
if they want to take that seriously, a whole different mindset is needed
you have to integrate a lot of measures to make 'cycling policy' effective
one of the most effective laws we have (imo): when a cyclist and a car are involved in an accident, the car driver has to pay; no matter who's guilty
 
unfortunately, we're pretty far from that...
 
8:34 AM
congrats for winning the Euro-vision btw, @Jaap. Not sure if you couldn't care less like me
 
@Cath I know, I think only Denmark (and maybe Sweden) comes close to The Netherlands with regard to cycling infrastructure and regulation
@DavidArenburg you summarised it quite well: I couldn't care less
 
the most pointless competition ever- They invest in everything except the music itself
btw, good point re he helmets, Kate. I never allow my kids to ride a bicycle without protection gear
 
8:53 AM
@Jaap how does this make sense to you?
 
@DavidArenburg UK was last... as usual, yeah couldn't care less, didn't know it happened, only heard on the radio
 
@DavidArenburg two reasons: (1) a car driver always has insurance against accidents; (2) there is a financial penalty when misbehaving as a car driver
 
@Jaap agree 100%, it is something like adult and a child getting into physical fight for whatever reason... adult is responsible.
 
@zx8754 well it happened in Israel, so couldn't completely ignore it. And we almost last too
 
hah didn't even know it happened in Israel!
 
9:03 AM
@Jaap your second point makes sense and everyone around the world agree on it. Re the first point, I don't understand why if someone has an insurance, he/she needs to pay for someone else misbehavior. I think it makes more sense to force bike riders to have insurance. I.e., why am I supposed to pay for some stupid biker that trashed my car- both for myself and for him- makes no sense whatever to me
@zx8754 but these are two adults
 
bicycle vs car, not talking about people.
 
but people driving them
it basically says that bicycle drivers can do whatever they want
 
yes, and even if they on purpose crash on your car, how much damage it is going to make? Their bike will be destroyed, car will have a scratch.
 
I guess, Netherlands government assumes they are afraid to die - pretty strong assumption to make considering most of the riders are young and stupid people
@zx8754 the can brake your side mirror without even noticing
they can brake your back lights
they can damage your side door heavily with the front wheel without hurting themselves too much
 
that is why they have insurance? take it as if your car was parked and your side mirror was smashed while you were away.
 
9:08 AM
these are hundreds of dollars damage
suing your insurance will result in higher prices next year
they are basically assuming car drivers are reach bastards that can handle additional few k dollars a year, while the bicycle drivers are the poor people that can't afford that
sounds like some communist bs to me
 
ah, I mean whatever gov does to make cycling more common I support. Same argument goes for car drivers pay road tax to have nice roads... and cyclists use it without paying == car drivers paying for everyones's insurance.
it is not who can afford what, there are some bikes that cost a lot more than average old car
 
we assume that most people just don't want trouble; hitting a car on purpose means you arrive later on your destination & run the risk on injury
may sound like a strong assumption, but it is working pretty well so far :-)
 
@Jaap not on purpose, just because lack of judgment and knowing you don't carry any responsibility for your actions
basically, one can ride the street, brake all the rare mirrors of the cars on they way, and go asleep without any worries
 
@DavidArenburg you do have responsibility: don't get hurt
 
@DavidArenburg you can do the same thing without a bike
 
9:16 AM
@DavidArenburg that's called vandalism for which you will get punished when caught
 
@zx8754 but you will be punished
 
camon there is a difference, vandalism vs accidental
 
Either way, such law in Israel would create chaos. Bicycle drivers will became even crazier that they are now and car drivers will have anti-bicycle weaponry in their car that in case of an accident to try and kill the bicycle driver before the police comes
@zx8754 yeah, go prove it now
the bicycle guy doesn't have insurance, so no one to talk to
 
You have a point David. But in case of Netherlands, the bicycle culture is developed enough. It wouldn't work for all countries at once.
 
yeah, I guess
 
9:23 AM
@zx8754 that sums it up quite well: you have to develop such a culture; it didn't came overnight here, it took a deliberate and consistent effort over many years
 
In Uzbekistan, drivers just now learning concepts of lanes!!! Cyclist have to wait for another 10-20 years
 
tbh, I don't know what happens here in case of an accident with a bicycle rider- I hope I won't need to find out
 
@DavidArenburg better find out... might make you more bicycle aware :P
 
@zx8754 we have always had lanes but no one ever uses it around here neither
@zx8754 I'm very bicycle aware, believe me. The last thing I want to do is to hit one
the bicycles make driving X10 fold harder
 
same same we had lanes for million years, but because of number of cars increased alot they are kind of getting stuck in more organised way, and finally understand better wait, than driving like F1
 
9:26 AM
driving like F1 ftw
<kidding>
 
9:49 AM
Fun fact: F1 drivers are called 'pilots'
 
10:25 AM
last vote: do my work for me: stackoverflow.com/q/56233343/680068
 
 
3 hours later…
@Cath because it's cool and fashonable :p
 
I'm totally not into fashion ;-p
this must be a dupe I did find a target but for one variable :-/
^--- I think my targets are ok...
 
 
2 hours later…
3:16 PM
@Cath I've added the canonical one for counts by group(s)
 
@Jaap thanks :-)
 
@Cath < facepalm >
 
@Jaap exactly !!
 
typing 11 characters (base R) vs 46 (tidyverse)
or 12 <-> 55 if you include spaces
what on earth is the efficiency gain?
 
@Jaap to me it's exactly what tidyverse is : 3 or more times longer and a hundred times harder to understand...
 
3:30 PM
it started actually quite simple, then they started adding things, and adding more things after that
as a result it is not easier to understand than base R anymore (imho)
 
I totally agree, and I find base R quite "simple" to understand anyway... there is nothing complicated if it does not need to be. Which is far from being the case with tidyverse...
(imo anyway)
 
I know tidyverse gets criticized for focusing on being cute, but dplyr/tidyr/purrr fit how my brain works
But I know tidyverse can become convoluted, which is why I end up splitting answers into chunks so steps are clearer...which then makes them even more verbose
 
my brain works more the data.table way ;-)
ok gtg kids to get, feed, and hopefully put into bed soon enough ^^
have nice evening GMTers :-)
 
3:48 PM
@Cath have a nice evening!
 
@Jaap I don't think the goal was ever to reduce the number of characters, or even to make code short
It was supposed to be easy to reason about, which can make it faster to write, and easier to maintain
 
being cute isn't productive imo; my main criticism is:
- they change function names when it's not really needed; sometimes even without proper warnings
- dependency hell
- as the developers are prominent members of the community I expect that they would put more effort in coming up with function names that don't mask functions from other popular packages or base R; it's not that hard to do
3
@Axeman I know ;-)
@Axeman in the beginning they certainly achieved that goal with dplyr; however, when I look at purrr or rlang I don't think it is easier to reason about
 
@Jaap those are all fair. I've gotten into the habit of writing the non-US spelling "summarise", even when it's not in code, because of how often I've had to clarify that I want the summarize from dplyr
 
4:04 PM
I've also taught R to complete beginners; in my experience I don't need more effort explaining base R than tidyverse
 
@Jaap rlang I agree. I really like purrr though.
@Jaap I've only taught base to beginners. But I've also taught the tidyverse to researchers that frequently use R, but are definitely not experts. The vast majority say it really improved their productivity.
 
@Axeman as long as I stick to dplyr I have the same experience
 
oh yeah, I teach ggplot, tidyr and dplyr
you use the packages you like
 
those are the easy parts indeed
@Axeman agreed!
but I also look at maintainability of production code in the long run; in that case tidyverse isn't the best choice (imo)
 
4:19 PM
@Jaap for now, that's true
 
 
3 hours later…
7:08 PM
I think we can add two laws to Godwin's law : 1- "In the R community, as an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving tidyverse / base R and data.table approaches 1". 2 - "In the Data Science community, as an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Python and R approaches 1".
3
and there probably should be some law regarding GMTs that mentioning nurka, dupes and Kate
 
 
1 hour later…

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