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lmo
12:42 AM
unclear probably delete
 
@Frank I guess I'm not worried about it. I'll criticize the Tidyverse if/when I think it's warranted.
 
lmo
typo I suppose.
 
1:00 AM
there's nothing wrong with criticising the tidyverse, we are even our own worst critics which is why we tend to break compatibility all the time ;)

as an outsider I was mostly appalled by the constant silly namecalling and by the outright hostility towards our work. I'm happy to see that there's a friendlier R chatroom on SO
3
 
lmo
Not clear whether this one is deletion worthy. Little to no effort on part of OP.
Voting to delete on natty post there.
 
 
2 hours later…
lmo
2:53 AM
probably close / delete
 
 
2 hours later…
5:12 AM
 
 
2 hours later…
6:51 AM
good morning
 
@lionel It comes up here now and then, but base, tidyverse and data.table users generally happily coexist here.
Good morning
 
Good Morning everyone :)
 
@Axeman In my case, by simply ignoring the tidyverse since it doesn't fill a need I have. As long as I can do that, I'm happy. What worries me is that I see increasing use of pipes, which means that there might come a day when I'll have to train myself to read such code, which doesn't come naturally to me.
 
@zx8754 those links are giving me zero results; these are the correct links for shinyapp but not r and shiny but not r
 
7:18 AM
@hadley You have write access
 
So we have got many new members from last couple of days :)
 
If some stick around we can take that as a positive outcome of all this nonsense.
@Roland Even Frank uses magrittr I think. But yeah, for me the tidyverse is really important. Partly in my own work, but more so when dealing with students and colleagues.
 
Morning all
 
Morning @Sotos
 
can someone be a SO chat user without having a profile on SO ?
Just found Donald Trump
weird, but with Donald Trump anything is possible :P
 
7:32 AM
welcome @William; you now have write access
 
> @alistaire I reinstalled rlang and it's working perfectly now!
 
to be honest, imo that package (rlang) has a misleading name
 
Hello
@Jaap thank you for the fix.
 
8:55 AM
@Jaap Yeah..
 
9:17 AM
Btw... I think I was summoned a couple of days ago
Hi @Sotos, I require your help here: stackoverflow.com/questions/47261388/…Ashmin Kaul yesterday
:p
I was tempted to give him my paypal info along with something like $50
:)
And when I saw it I responded with "Yes Master" (In whispery creepy voice)
 
lol..and why did he asked for your "help"? You were not even one of the answerer in his post there..
 
No idea...maybe he told a whole bunch of people
 
@RonakShah Nope, but this can happen with deleted users, I may ask in TL if you really wish to know
 
@Sotos you seem to be the favourite one ;-)
@Tensibai yep..he seems to be a deleted user, surprised that somehow the chat profile still remained
 
Uwe
@Sotos It seems Ashim has posted the comment to call for help on a completely different question. That's weird.
 
9:33 AM
@Jaap base was already taken ;)
2
 
@Uwe yup...and the thing is that I am not known...at all...at answering that kind of questions
 
@lionel paws taken too?
 
hello all :-)
 
paws sounds like an awesome package name, now we just have to find out what it will be about
hello
 
Uwe
@lionel paws and claws ;)
 
9:39 AM
@lionel cats obviously
could go well with purrrrrr
2
 
Uwe
10:08 AM
@zx8754 or forcats
 
@lionel lol :-)
(though imo rlangext (ext for extension) or something similar would have been a better choice)
 
10:28 AM
it's not really an extension though, more like a programming interface to the REPL. Much of it is still wrapping the base package so is an extension in that sense but the goal is to wrap the C API (though that's not always possible). Still very much a work in progress, I recently added a lifecycle tag to make this explicit on the github page
longer term it will also be an include point to a more consistent C API: github.com/tidyverse/rlang/blob/master/src/rlang/rlang.h
 
I've probably be not using r for too long to grasp the value behind this package :p
 
it's mostly valuable to idealistic programmer such as myself ;)
 
I don't really get the goal behind it in fact :p
 
the parts of rlang that are important for the tidyverse are (or will be) exported in other packages
 
Ok, reading the vignette brings more sense, I think I disagree with the approach but that's another subject :)
 
10:44 AM
the goals are a more consistent interface, sometimes (hopefully) more intuitive (see with_handlers() versus withCallingHandlers() + tryCatch()). Also to provide functions that make it easier to inspect the runtime, e.g. ctxt_stack() and call_stack() are very handy for debugging and understand the structure of the call stack, env_parents() returns a list of the whole ancestry up to empty env, etc
We are also experimenting with new syntax to avoid do.call() based idioms, so you can use !!! in all functions taking dots by value (which uses a different implementation based than tidy eval for efficiency reason)
Longer term we hope to find a solution to the issue of C-level generic dispatch to maintain vector attributes, it's a difficult and important issue
 
 
2 hours later…
12:16 PM
@lionel I've had to write some of those functions myself (e.g. list all parent env). On the whole, the more the merrier. One problem with tidyverse is that it is massive and the dependencies complex. rlang is nice that way that is doesn't have dependencies.
 
12:31 PM
@Queen k
 
12:46 PM
yeah, i also am wary of the complicated dependencies elsewhere in the 'verse, but have no qualms about magrittr for that reason. if rlang brings a f(**kwargs) and f(*args) syntax with few/no dependencies, i would probably use it (i mean stackoverflow.com/questions/1769403/…)
(that's what i infer is meant by new syntax for do.call)
 
for a moment thought you are masking the f words.
 
ha :)
 
1:01 PM
@Frank It looks like that's exactly it. I didn't know about kwargs, thanks. You can take your dots with rlang::dots_list() to enable this in your functions.
currently dots capture is kinda slow because half of it is written in R but I'm working on a C implementation
 
1:20 PM
Hi everyone. It seems like there are a lot of questions about the tidyverse and related work, so I'm experimenting with hanging out here more often
7
 
welcome @hadley :)
 
welcome @hadley
 
Welcome @hadley
 
@lionel cool, thanks
hi and welcome, hadley
 
Hey @hadley welcome :)
 
1:31 PM
Reading back in the discussion it seems like there's some confusion about what the primary issue was in the R chat room. It was not criticism of the tidyverse. As Lionel says, we welcome criticism - we want to make the tidyverse better, and we can't do that with out listening to the problem's people have with it
2
 
huh...I feel like I miss something with the public R room (which I can't find right now)
 
@Sotos here
 
Cheers @Jaap. That explaines it :)
 
1:48 PM
@Sotos I don't think that link is related to the issue I'm alluding to
 
@hadley Not the whole link per se but Barghav's comment about twitter shed the light for me
I mean @Bhargav Rao (sorry for butchering your name) :)
 
2:03 PM
anyone know what might lead to this? stackoverflow.com/questions/47292705/… op says they have dplyr+tidyverse loaded (or something) in their rmd but still apparently gets base union and intersect
 
@Frank I have a vague feeling that this is a bug with S3 method dispatch that only occurs inside S3 generics
 
@hadley ah ok, in my not-knitr example, i can embed union inside setdiff and get expected behavior in r console: library(dplyr); DF = data.frame(a=1:2); setdiff(union(DF %>% slice(1),DF %>% slice(2)), DF %>% slice(1))
 
2:22 PM
@Frank note that you're attaching dplyr rather than using ::, that may change things
 
2:36 PM
@Frank Until OP shows reproducible Rmd seems like the most likely hypothesis is they are not correctly loading dplyr ahead of their code chunk.
 
 
1 hour later…
3:41 PM
*sigh* I wish new users would get their first points by suggesting edits inserting whitespace where it belongs. I do it just so I can read questions, but I'd be totally happy to let somebody get points for doing so
4
and good morning, and welcome lionel and hadley and anybody else new
 
3:59 PM
@alistaire here, get a star for all this unpleasant work ;-p
 
why thank you
 
Uwe
4:38 PM
 
4:49 PM
Has there been any discussion about systematically encouraging new users to use reprex? It would resolve many of the problems caused by a typo or similar
 
@hadley we often use this set of standard comments to nudge people into improving their questions
 
Specifically link them here stackoverflow.com/questions/5963269
 
@hadley There are a lot of pushy encouragements built into asking a question, but they aren't R-specific, so they often get ignored. If it's tagged R, there's almost always a comment pointing them to the R reprex post (which is linked in the R tag info page—which itself is probably under-utilized), as well.
 
There is also some wider SO discussion going on I think
 
No explicit mention of reprex package though? We find it useful because if you use it, you can't cheat - it forces you to actually run the code
 
4:59 PM
4
A: How to make a great R reproducible example?

andriiYou can do this using reprex. As mt1022 noted, "... good package for producing minimal, reproducible example is "reprex" from tidyverse". According to Tidyverse: The goal of "reprex" is to package your problematic code in such a way that other people can run it and feel your pain. An exam...

 
@Jaap yeah, i just google-re-found that. maybe we can add a "moderation tools" section or page to David's GMTs FAQ linking there
 
I'm also not sure how useful it is to link to the very long reprex post - that is a lot of information for a newcomer to take in - and is one of the reasons we wrote tidyverse.org/help
2
 
i guess linking to the whole thread is a compromise position, since we each have different advice we think is most important and SO is community written and moderated. (i always link to Brodie's post, for example)
 
hmm, just noticed the top answer is missing that you should include your desired output
 
5:20 PM
@alistaire I must admit I've never read non of the answers there although been linking this post for years
 
@hadley thanks for the link, i hadn't looked into what the package did before, but that does sound very useful
 
I love it for capturing output in answers; I stopped adding a "Data" section at the end and just put the data and packages up top. I always edit out the <br />, though, and can't see any reason for it...maybe a github issue is in order
I use to hack things through formatR, but it was a little ungainly
To back up a bit, I really do like How to Ask and mcve, and they're both concise. It may be useful to make versions with R examples and point people to that
more the latter than the former, I guess
 
yeah, i also like r-project.org/help.html
also, of course, the documentation/TFM
 
6:01 PM
@Frank it does have the best property of a compromise that everyone is equally unhappy 😜
 
6:23 PM
heh, indeed :)
 
@m0nhawk "Of course, paste() is vectorized, so you could just as well do paste(1, 2, 3, 4, 5)" -- that's because it's an n-ary function (instead of binary), not because of vectorization, eh
heh, "brotools"
 
7:43 PM
just used reprex here github.com/Rdatatable/data.table/issues/2487 something of a pain that i have to do Sys.setenv(RSTUDIO_PANDOC = "bah") since i'm in r console, but i guess i can perhaps put that in my rprofile
otherwise, pretty convenient
 

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