last day (14 days later) » 

03:08
72
Q: Narrowing ourselves into irrelevance

tohsterI posted the following question on SO today: What's the relationship between flask-login and flask-security? The question was almost immediately put on hold as too broad. I believe it was a proper question. At least, when I run through the suggested checklists, the guidelines, and negative gui...

I would lean towards that being an acceptable question as well. Just so you know, no moderators (diamond) closed that question. Just general users. Note, its not a great question, better would be asking about a specific method comparison, but its not terrible either.
@Downvoters. Note that this is a discussion. While you may disagree with the OPs point of view, this is one of the better written, less ranty questions of its kind.
Thanks @BradleyDotNET. I'm generally a huge fan of SO and the very existence of the meta forum shows (to me at least) that there is a working sense of introspection in the community that allows topics like this to be discussed periodically. And obviously, users/moderators are putting in precious time to reviewing and assessing questions so this isn't intended to be a critique about specific users.
@BradleyDotNET Note that votes are often a reflection of the voter's approval or disapproval of the proposal in a question, and not necessarily just on how ranty it is. This is true regardless of its tags.
@Servy I'm aware of that. And while every voter can choose to vote any way, for any reason, my understanding is that the guidance is to only do that for feature-request. In particular, it seems that downvoting this guy for a well-articulated opinion is not the message we should be sending. I'm also aware many people will disagree with me on that :)
@BradleyDotNET The help center is not there to tell people how they're supposed to vote, it's there to inform newer users how many members of the community have chosen to vote. Sadly, it doesn't do a very good job of this, as its too complex of a topic to cover in a few sentences. Shog does a much better job of explaining human voting patterns in detail. (He even goes out of his way to mention that the points don't just apply to feature requests.)
03:08
@BradleyDotNET If I downvoted every Meta question that started with, "My question was put on hold/downvoted. I believe it was a proper question," my downvoting finger would have fallen off ages ago.
@ThisSuitIsBlackNot Indeed. As would I. I only posted the original comment because in a very short period of time this post had hit -7. In my opinion, this one at least provides a decent defense of the question and is more than just a complaint that it was closed.
Thank you all for the discussion. I don't care very much about downvoting as sadly I don't contribute enough to SO for points to be meaningful to me. But I do care about the community because I think SO is pretty amazing, so I just wanted to register one person's views that the talent on this community is wasted when good and likely popular questions are closed too early because they are judged too narrow.
@tohster I think you mean, "because they are judged too broad," but yes, that's a common sentiment. See, for example, this recent post about another question that was put on hold as "too broad." FYI, votes on Meta don't affect your reputation on SO.
@ThisSuitIsBlackNot, you're right. I appreciate the topic on scope is a sensitive one given the community's investment in enforcing the rules. But at a certain point it feels like there should be a sniff test which goes something like, 1. "Is this a good coding question?", 2. "Would the community benefit from answers here", and 3. "Is SO a good format for answering this question?". I think a more permissive stance with a higher bar for blocking/holding questions would result in a much more powerful body of content at SO. Give power back to voters, rather than to opinionated moderators.
@tohster you're using the word "moderators" incorrectly. On the Stack Exchange system, moderators have a diamond (♦) after their user name, are elected by the community, and have certain privileges and responsibilities above and beyond "regular" users. By and large, however, and in this case specifically, questions are put on hold by community members who have accrued the right by means of participation, as measured (inaccurately, but our only metric) by reputation.
03:08
@MattDMo i'm aware of that, i willfully sinned cos i needed to get that reply under the character limit and couldn't find another word to use :-)
Agreed. In many parts of SO, it has become impossible for even a knowledgeable, sensible, intelligent individual to ask a well-formed question without risk of running into trouble because of a set of rules that can be completely opaque to newcomers. It sometimes feels like the revolution is eating its children. On the other hand, there is so much real garbage coming in that needs super fast closing. A hard problem. Either way, +1 for this reasoned, well-put contribution.
@Pekka웃 I see plenty of well written, on-topic, upvoted, non-closed, answered questions every day. Therefore, it is not impossible for knowledgeable, sensible, intelligent users to ask questions.
@davidism true. Still, too many perfectly reasonable askers (the kind we want around here) aren't treated well. I witness it frequently. The OP discussed here, to me, is a good example.
(...not, however, all of the questions linked.)
Agreed @Pekka. I used to love SO when it first started. These days I spend my time on Quora because the community got so toxic here. Seems people would rather look for any excuse to kill questions and sneer at the questioner than to find ways to be helpful or include the questioner in the community.
@Pekka웃 I think the main problem is people perceiving closed questions as 'getting into trouble'. While repeatedly getting closed questions can be a sign of trouble, your question getting closed can range from 'great' (duplicates) to 'more work needed'. If a newcomer posts a question and it gets closed, that means it isn't in a state it'll be useful to anyone, needs changing or reconsidering, and, for the moment, is closed. You get a reason and an opportunity to make it work. Yes, there are issues with perception, but that doesn't mean the rules need to change.
pmf
pmf
03:08
It's a disease. Some of the most useful and most popular questions ever on So are of the type that would nowadays be closed immediately.
The question has been re-opened, and currently has one close vote for being a duplicate of this question.
03:58
I ended up just building some stuff with both libraries to understand the relationship better and tried to answer my own question, given the time elapsed between then and now. It's certainly possible that answer fails a number of standards on subjectivity, brevity, etc. but for what it's worth I tried to answer it with a single positive principle instead of negative format constraints: what would another programmer asking this question want to know?
04:45
@tohster It sounds like you just reworded the introduction from Flask-Security's docs. You actually left out information, so you convey less information in the process. The stuff that isn't straight out of the intro is straight out of my answer to the duplicate.
And since that's still an off-topic/too broad question, that answer is potentially outdated for anyone viewing it in the future, over them just looking at the docs for the projects. Seriously, what does anyone gain by reading this over the actual introductions for each project?
Or what do they gain over just experimenting for a couple hours themselves like you did and coming to a conclusion specific to their project?
05:45
@davidism as anticipated, I'm sure you and perhaps others will find various reasons to critique the answer. So if you wish, you may certainly apply your judgement and powers to downvote the answer as you see fit, rather than continue the petty discussion here.

last day (14 days later) »