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10:00 PM
Blend was fine, other than all the junk it put into the generated XAML
 
@JohanLarsson Is Blend actually not a thing anymore?
 
No longer maintained/product I think
 
wooooo
drinks on me tonight
 
Its definitely not an actual product anymore
there are still some "for Visual Stuido versions" around IIRC
 
@BradleyDotNET I blame blend for xaml being so ugly.
 
10:01 PM
lol
Looks like it shipped with VS2013, but no mention of 2015, so it might be truly dead now
 
@ReedCopsey - In knockout every property is an Observable instance and you can just add observers using MyModel.MyObservable.subcribe(function(oldvalue, newvalue) { });
 
If xaml had been designed for being written manually from the start it would probably have been nicer
 
Other than lack of Binding intellisense, its not hard at all to write manually
as long as you have auto-complete :)
 
@JohanLarsson XAML by itself isn't nearly as bad as the XAML Blend generated
 
@SpencerRuport yeah - there are some nice things, but it's kind of weird if you're not in a dynamic language, too
 
10:02 PM
@JohanLarsson yeah, probabaly
 
@BradleyDotNET what do you mean lack of binding intellisense?
I have intellisense for bindings, dunno if it is R#
 
@ReedCopsey - Indeed.
 
@JohanLarsson Must be, my bindings never have intellisense
 
@JohanLarsson I think it's d:DataContext="{d:DesignInstance viewModels:MyVM}"
 
yeah ^ is required for it to work
does it work without R# then?
 
10:04 PM
ugh, designer attributes
 
@ReedCopsey - So with your WPF apps do they typically have a main data store of some kind? Or is it a file based application like photoshop/autocad? Or are they connecting to web services?
 
@BradleyDotNET Do you set the design time data context?
 
totally going against the concept of programming
 
@KendallFrey not ugh, very not ugh.
 
@JohanLarsson UGH
 
10:05 PM
Gives intellisense & ~compiler errors~ for typos
 
@SpencerRuport Most of ours are file based, though one of them does have a data store of sorts (a custom file level, xcopyable DB)
 
it'd be much better if they weren't in the code itself
 
IsDesignTimeCreateble is broken I think
 
@ReedCopsey - Do the files use a custom data format? As in not JSON/XML
 
@ReedCopsey No
does that fix it?
 
10:07 PM
hey what do you guys suggest on the Git installation, it is asking me about Configuring the line ending conversions. Checkout windows style, Checkout as is, commit Unit-style line endings, or Checkout as-is, commit as-is?
 
@BradleyDotNET try this and see if you don't get intellisense.
 
@BradleyDotNET design time attributes give you intellisense - but they have their own issues, too
@SpencerRuport It's not JSON/XML ;)
@SpencerRuport we tend to have requirements that don't fit in text based data stores
 
Reed did you remove your F# WPF thing?
 
It ends up not being a huge deal, but having it would be nice
 
@JohanLarsson remove it? no - I still have all of the libraries up there
@BradleyDotNET yeah - I don't use it very often, but when it works, it is nice ;)
 
10:08 PM
ok I looked for it but did not find it.
 
@ReedCopsey - I'm just curious how you manage persistence for something like that. I mean I'm guessing you're not loading the entire file into memory all at once. Is there some standard pattern for that kind of thing?
 
@ErocM I think I have as-is, but I don't work with people on Unix, so it's not an issue for me
 
yeah I do not either, all Windows development.
so you think as is will work then for my situation?
 
@ErocM If I was worried about managing a project with developers on different OSs I'd go with Commit Unix
 
10:10 PM
@SpencerRuport depends a lot on the scenario and what we're doing - for some of the stuff, it's based on SQLite, so it's effectively a local DB
 
Otherwise, as-is is fine
 
ok tyvm
 
@ErocM sounds fine
 
but other things are fully custom, most of which are loaded in memory entirely
 
@ReedCopsey what are the main issues? (I was already watching the project :)
 
10:12 PM
@ReedCopsey - Ah okay. So for desktop apps do you have another pattern living behind the MVVM stuff? I mean with web MVVM helps us with the front end and then we have MVC in the back end. Do desktop apps do something similar?
 
Quick syntax question: What does '[Foo] public class Bar { ... }' mean? Specifically Foo.
 
an attribute?
 
@Hamster brackets like that above classes or methods or fields are attributes
 
i see
alright thanks. this wouldn't by chance be similar to php's idea of traits would it?
 
I think it would
but I don't know anything about PHP's idea of traits
 
10:16 PM
they're just a way to reduce code repetition, as i'm aware
 
@Hamster an attribute can be used for almost anything. they can change how things are serialized, how a database is built using code-first entity framework, and lots of other stuff
those are some common use cases, but we had some custom stuff at my last company for tests where you could add an attribute that would wrap the entire test in a SQL transaction and do a rollback at the end of it
so you didn't have to worry about cleaning up after yourself (it was kind of awesome)
 
@Hamster well that's nothing like attributes then
An attribute is kind of like defining a property on the class itself
 
> To increase performance, the XML serialization infrastructure dynamically generates assemblies to serialize and deserialize specified types. The infrastructure finds and reuses those assemblies. This behavior occurs only when using the following constructors:
XmlSerializer.XmlSerializer(Type)
XmlSerializer.XmlSerializer(Type, String)
**If you use any of the other constructors, multiple versions of the same assembly are generated and never unloaded, which results in a memory leak and poor performance.** The easiest solution is to use one of the previously mentioned two constructors. Otherw
 
Like [Serializable] signals the class can be serialized, and [COMVisible] lets you create a COM class for your .NET class
@JohanLarsson Why I don't use that
 
@JohanLarsson with F#/WPF? Not much - works great. Biggest thing is giving up baml
@SpencerRuport Not really - realistically, the "Model" is the backend of a desktop app, so you don't need that separation
 
10:19 PM
Gotcha.
 
@ReedCopsey I mean designer attributes.
 
@JohanLarsson You either need to create a design time class separate from your VM, or your VM needs to be constructable properly without any other info - both put restrictions on you
 
yeah IsDesignetimeCreateble = False is broken every time I try it
 
anybody know any other approaches to stackoverflow.com/q/29110524/65358 other than looping?
(just curious)
 
map
oh wait it's c# :P
 
10:24 PM
:p
 
@ReedCopsey - I'm just wondering how it works with a database where your model needs to be saved to some records or needs records loaded. That transformation logic can get pretty involved. Does it all live in the model on a desktop app?
 
hmm, any idea why a DataMember attribute on an ICollection would cause an empty array rather than the actual data to be emitted?
 
@SpencerRuport in general, persistance is (by definition) part of the model layer
but the model layer can be very complicated
web actually complicates things, because you have fewer options
that simplifies the front end (in some ways) because it's "crippled"
but tends to make people think in terms that aren't really teh same
because you almost always have a separation between your actual Model and the way you have to work with it that's somewhat artificial, since you can't access the model directly (as its remote), so you end up with a "Model" (on server) that has to be translated into another model wrapper/API for consumption from the client
 
I see. Thanks. :) I think that'll help me the next time I try a desktop app.
 
desktop is simpler - the VM is really the bridge between the model and the presentation
with knockout and other web apps, you are effectively making layered view models (the server side API and the "ViewModel" for knockout are really both a part of the VM in an architectural sense)
 
10:30 PM
Yeah in web I tend to think of it as: View -> View Model -> Service Model -> Controller -> Model -> Database
 
@SpencerRuport that's how my current site is built basically!
not super strictly, but basically
 
@ReedCopsey - I've been doing that so long I feel like I prefer it an in a desktop environment I find myself wanting to recreate that separation.
@Pheonixblade9 - It feels so clean!
 
@SpencerRuport yep :)
 
We actually do have that separation
 
I'm just doing microservices with promises in my javascript
 
10:35 PM
@KendallFrey - Oh?
 
our database is on a server somewhere, and the front end communicates with it
Too bad we don't have enough web developers on the project to dictate some good practice
 
Your desktop app communicates directly with the database server?
 
well, through our server app
 
Oh okay
 
@ReedCopsey There is probably something you could hack together with Array.CreateInstance :p
 
10:36 PM
so we have the model on the server and on the client, yada yada
 
I was about to say, that sounds expensive.
 
it is
 
my team's communication skills youtube.com/watch?v=GVc1AfYkajE
 
I think I got all my Git repos created. :) Now all I need to do is set up a git server.
 
@MikeAsdf my teams:
 
10:39 PM
Anyone know of a free dark theme for Office 365?
 
can't be hard to make your own
!!youtube hennimore
 
@MikeAsdf sounds like ^
 
Get to bed!
 
@SpencerRuport why do you need a server?
 
10:47 PM
Because I'm old school.
I run my own email server
I just prefer to be in control haha.
 
ok with git you don't really need a server ime
 
@SpencerRuport /me respectfully gets off your lawn
 
I have repos on my nas and push to them
and then there is always github
 
@JohanLarsson - Yeah it's for redundancy. I need a NAS but I don't have one. So my AWS instance will do.
 
bitbucket has free private repos iirc
 
10:50 PM
@CapricaSix lol "he wants to know if he can borrow the costume"
 
reading up on attributes now
 
@JohanLarsson - Yeah but it's not miiiiiine
haha
 
they feel very... i almost want to say hackish, or at least teetering on some kind of bad form
 
10:51 PM
And yes, I know my AWS instance isn't either. But it's closer.
 
@Hamster attributes?
 
@Sippy yeah. like, i feel i'd only use them if i did something wrong
 
Then you need to keep reading lol
 
@JohanLarsson - Yeah I would like to see IPv6 take over and everyone have their own personal cloud at home.
The internet is becoming too centralized.
 
i guess i can see their use for earlier mentioned applications
 
10:55 PM
If everybody had a personal cloud then we could re-invent social networks.
Your NAS would "friend" other NASes
You'd share photos but not with a huge company. Just the people whos NAS you've connected to.
Of course information can and would proliferate but not nearly at the same speed.
 
what is aws?
 
Amazon Web Services
Virtual Servers, Remote Storage, Remote Backup, Message Services etc.
 
does it work well?
 
It had a rocky start but it's been extremely stable for the past 3 years in my experience.
I run my website on my instance.
 
@Hamster its massively useful, especially that you can make your own
 
11:02 PM
you can probably host git on a phone
 
@JohanLarsson - AWS is basically Amazon's version of Microsoft Azure.
 
ok ty
 
@JohanLarsson - I may just do that. I can't wait until the Linux phones are stable.
Do want.
 
@NETscape How would you do it with Array.CreateInstance?
@SpencerRuport That separation is a lot of cruft for no purpose in a desktop application. It's good to have separation when it buys you something, but a controller + service model is effectively just another VM
 
fragmentation of concerns.
 
11:12 PM
@JohanLarsson - You should make a wikipedia entry.
 
:)
liked the sound of it when it went through my head so I wrote it.
There is a similarish thing that happens for me when writing stuff that I don't know how to solve sometimes.
Kind of like trying to grab something slippery that just slips away.
usually leads to just layers of abstraction without getting started with solving things.
dunno a word for it
 
over abstraction
 
yeah that is the result
 
All problems in computer science can be solved by another level of indirection... except for the problem of too many layers of indirection
or whatever that quote is
 
11:35 PM
@JohanLarsson, Okay But Is There Something Wrong With The way I'm Calculating It?
 
I Did Not Spot Anything But Guess So Since You Asked On Main
 
@JohanLarsson Lol
 
we are title case
 
@JohanLarsson hEY gUYS sORRY cAPS lOCK iS bROKEN aND i'M oN mY pHONE
 
11:44 PM
damn... overflow-y is not working to make my viewport scrollable :(
 

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