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5:15 AM
@PeterVaro Sometimes you depend on a big crate which depends on a slightly less big crate which depends on another crate which depends on a small crate which raises such warning. And nobody updates the small crate. It's long and time consuming to find exactly where and how to act in such a case and people aren't prompt to rewrite a crate just because of a warning without real impact
 
6:10 AM
Sorry, I just left a message here and went straight to bed :sweat_smile:
 
Well, it's a chat, not a phone call, that's ok
 
@LukasKalbertodt I do not wish to open that debate here because I just don't have time today to type in all my arguments, but the thing this "behaviour" reminds me of is the horrors of being unable to migrate from version 2 to 3 in the Python world for 10+ bloody years, causing the biggest tear in the community, problems everywhere, and tech-debts for every company.
It certainly had more contributing factors than this, but in my view that super careful and cautious act to push deadline at least 8 times further just so that people who for some reason unable to move forward in time would not abandon the ship.
But even then, my arguments wouldn't mean much if we wouldn't address the second point though!
@LukasKalbertodt Which is this. If rustfix do include the cure, then it makes absolutely no sense to me, to include the hack in the compiler, however small that hack might be!
I cannot think of a single compelling reason for it! Throw the error in the compiler and mention to run the rustfix option to automatically take care of the situation. Win-win: clean compiler code, moving forward with new features, easy and automated and painless migration for the users.
@LukasKalbertodt I know, I know, but still, as I said above, I don't believe it is a matter of lines anymore. Sure, now it was only 40. But it made a precedence. Next time it will be 100, maybe 200. After that, who knows? The precedence should've been: we do not compromise, ever, because we made a tool for you, that can do the migration as painlessly as possible.
@DenysSéguret But you still have to draw the line of how much grace period you gave the authors. And when you provide a simple and straightforward tool to migrate, I really don't believe this is a problem anymore: one can contribute to that small crate, without breaking a sweat. I know the community would it its maintainer(s) won't, if the big crate that somehow depends on it is important and widely used enough.
I know practicality beats purity, but it is important to realise that special cases aren't special enough to break the rules.
@DenysSéguret Sure, sure, but I just wanted to come clean on this :D
 
6:43 AM
Someone should improve their debugging practices: stackoverflow.com/questions/68030477/…
 
Good morning!
 
 
1 hour later…
8:04 AM
@LukasKalbertodt you seem to underestimated the problem to keep exception behavior into a program in the long term, rustc have already a lot of "exception" code and each time you want to improve or change the code this kind of exception will be in the way. There is not only one type of stability, sure I would not like the language become a completly turn over as when pre Rust 1.0 but this is a VERY SMALL CHANGE and for the better. I favor the compiler stability over ugly hack
@LukasKalbertodt if you don't FORCE people to update there will not do it, a dev is lazy by nature
do the breaking change in nightly wait 30s people will say omg the code is broken see the change needed 1 hour later the entire ecosystem is fix
now we have a ugly hack who will stay in compiler code forever
how many hack do we have already ?
 
8:27 AM
@PeterVaro Well, the problem is that while it's easy to detect code that would break under this change, the errors caused by it can be of many different kinds and are very hard to track back to this problem. E.g. [1, 2].into_iter().for_each(|x| *x) compiled before and we can easily detect that there is an into_iter() call on an array, ok. But the resulting error will be "cannot dereference {integer}".
And here it's still easy to see where that error comes from, but the code could be very complex and the error very far away. It's very hard to find out whether the error is caused by the IntoIterator change. And of course, once you change it, people might use array.into_iter() for legit reasons right? So you cannot warn about it anymore like rustc does now. So yeah: while it's easy to fix everything when you know you need a fix, but hard to correlate the resulting errors with this change.
@Stargateur That was our initial preferred solution right? We tried that. But no, the entire ecosystem was not fixed after an hour. In fact, it wasn't even fixed after 1.5 years. Yes, we could have tried using the new (albeit still unstable) Cargo feature that warns about future incompatibility warnings in dependencies. That would have helped a lot probably, but not nearly enough.
Like, sure you can say these things, but we tried and know for a fact that the ecosystem did not magically fix itself in a short time. Due to numerous problems actually. Lots of libraries (where I personally created a PR to fix the code) are just not maintained anymore. But still used a ton! Sure, that's a whole new can of worms, the whole open source maintenance problem, but that's the reality.
And re "this exception will make compiler development harder in the future": yes. But I'm arguing that it does so by a minuscule amount and that the benefits here vastly outweigh the costs. The compiler team suggested this, and I fully trust them in knowing what they're doing in this regard.
@Stargateur This is the first one of its kind, to my knowledge
 
When you start worrying about unmaintained projects, that's already a clear sign (at least to me) that you're overthinking it. Regardless of such crate's popularity.
 
Mhhh. That's a fair opinion about how languages should evolve, but I think you two underestimate the damage to Rust's image that this would entail. Getting to a point where people trust your language to be stable enough to build production code on is a major milestone/goal of most programming languages. Rust had to fight hard for this. If suddenly a popular dependency stops compiling after a compiler update, lots of people will not trust Rust anymore in that regard.
 
@LukasKalbertodt Sure, you may or may not be able to create a proper error reporting. But you must mention this in the changelog, which you do. People maintaining production code and blindly updating versions in the language without actually looking into the changelog should not be your concern. And if you would provide the side note, that rustfix should be used before update, you could wash hands then.
@LukasKalbertodt Now its image damaged badly in a different way. Make a pick, you know :)
@PeterVaro *of the language; the side not in the changelog; wash your hands
Don't get me wrong though @LukasKalbertodt, I know this is a hard game of balancing between the choices. And maybe in certain situations, knowing all the details of the context, I would've made the same call. I don't know, because I've not been there, and I don't know all the details. But I certainly do have a general feeling, that we are so afraid of breaking changes that it could become our doom at some point if we continue like this.
 
8:47 AM
"People maintaining production code and blindly updating versions in the language without actually looking into the changelog should not be your concern"

Again, fair opinion regarding language design, but I strongly disagree. Rust, like many languages, encourages always using the newest compiler version. I see hardly any projects pinning the rustc version. And there are usually multiple devs working on projects, likely with different systems and different compiler versions.
grrrrrr stackoverflow chat!!
 
(LOL, shite as hell..)
 
@PeterVaro So from all reactions I've seen throughout the community, the two of you are by far the negatively strongest :P So I'm not quite sure the damage is equally large in both directions
 
@LukasKalbertodt But you can pin it, and you should pin it, if you're working with production code, regardless of the encouragement of using the latest. Sure, with every single software on your computer, you should use the latest, because of, say, security implications. But that doesn't mean you should not create a completely reliable and reproducible environment when it comes to production.
@LukasKalbertodt XP
 
@PeterVaro Yeah, I mean as long as we can agree that this was/is a trade-off, I'm happy. And naturally, in a trade-off, people weigh different things differently and come to different conclusions.
And since you mentioned "I've not been there": in case you fancy reading 176 comments to better understand this, here you go :P github.com/rust-lang/rust/pull/65819
 
@LukasKalbertodt At the moment when I'll have nothing else to do with my spare time, I can assure you, I shall read it! :D :D :D
 
8:52 AM
I'll say it again: having changes propagated through multiple layers of dependencies maintained by hard to contact volunteers isn't an easy or fast process. And most big rust projects have a wide and deep network of dependencies. Even if you analyze, fork, fix, a deep faulty dependency, you made only part of the job.
 
:D
@DenysSéguret I absolutely agree. As someone who actually writes Rust as part of their job, I'm currently dealing with a very popular library for web dev that has not updated to Tokio 1.0 yet and thus being a huge pain for many people. I don't necessarily blame the maintainers (again: a different can of worms), but that's the sad reality.
 
@DenysSéguret But for the love of me, that's why we have versions everywhere. Pin it / constrain it, whatever. And don't update it if you cannot.
Arguing about how to "circumvent the usage of versions" in the preferred way is beyond my understanding..
I can only tell you the example that in other languages I'm working with on a daily basis (soon Rust will follow) I do pin the version of the languages / compilers / interpreters themselves for environment creation on both local and remote development. (As well as the exact version of the dependencies I'm using.)
 
 
2 hours later…
10:53 AM
Feels warm here.
 
still OK. sensors says "+72°C"
 
11:18 AM
Does my "Yes" look too much trollish in stackoverflow.com/q/68030477/263525 ?
 
@E_net4theflagger Oh, we have lovely and much needed thunderstorms over here and temperatures plummeted. The last week or so was criminally hot though, I was almost unable to think straight and/or work at all..
@DenysSéguret I wish it was a single word, says 'yes' :)
 
11:57 AM
I think @Stargateur will like this: play.rust-lang.org/…
 
@DenysSéguret I am so happy that we finally have unicode identifiers. It is everything this language truly needed!
(On a slightly cheerful note though: at least it generates some warnings)
 
@PeterVaro We had some of those too this weekend.
 
12:12 PM
@PeterVaro sorry, can't read your comment now, I'm busy renaming all my functions and modules
2
 
@DenysSéguret LOL
 
New Issue: add std::{integral}::consts::π and deprecate std::{integral}::consts::PI
 
@E_net4theflagger τ or nothing
 
@trentcl Sure
 
12:22 PM
BTW I'm curious of the direction Rust will take to let us micromanage allocations.
 
@trentcl I still wish it was added to JavaScript, but the proposal was rejected. I mean, it's rarely used, but still...
 
IMO τ vs π is pure bikeshedding.
 
I don't feel strongly about it myself, although I've written enough code with 2*pi in it that it does become annoying after a while
 
Yes, it's not that important to me either, besides saving some characters or not having to write out your own constant.
 
Having both constants available is convenient for people using Pi only for trigonometry. Math people find Pi more frequently useful on the contrary
 
12:32 PM
The most error-prone thing about π is when it finds its way into an equation where there's a 1/2 coming from somewhere else and the numbers cancel
but because all your other equations start with 2*pi, you accidentally put it in anyway
But it's a minor annoyance and not a hill I'm interested in dying on.
 
I like hills.
 
I hike lill's.
 
1:15 PM
@LukasKalbertodt no you wrong you didn't do it you just add a mere warning that not what I said, an error
 
2:07 PM
@LukasKalbertodt I well know I'm the minority, that doesn't mean I'm wrong, I really believe rust actually is too afraid of breaking change at a point it's become a problem, also I don't care at all of Rust image. Some people hate Rust already, I hate go, no one care. The goal of Rust was clear "get ride of past and use it to make a good language long term" this kind of hack is not long term vision.
@E_net4theflagger do you live close to lisbone BTW ?
@DenysSéguret you hurt my eye
 
2:51 PM
Other than being horrified, how to deal with this ?
0
Q: Method (Inheritance) and overriding in Rust

Lezhar Ayman use crate::size::Size; pub struct Car { pub name: String, pub color: (u32, u32, u32), pub size: Size, pub model: u32, pub private: i32, } impl Car { pub fn new() -> Self { Car { name: String::from("Default Template"), color: (1, 0, 1),...

 
3:22 PM
Damn, I should be able to form a more constructive and useful comment but it's too hot here. I can't think properly.
 
 
2 hours later…
4:59 PM
@Stargateur Not really.
Much closer to Porto (~ 1 hour trip) than Lisbon (~ 3 hour trip).
 
5:18 PM
@DenysSéguret answer:
@E_net4theflagger I have a friend that go to lisbone next week for holiday
 
@Stargateur I'll let you contribute. I feel like you'll be more impactful than me there
 
5:58 PM
@DenysSéguret you started it :p anyway this question can't be answer properly, expect by, get good, learn rust, read book, do project, learn
the answer literally need 2-3 years of learning
 
6:25 PM
@Stargateur Well, good for your friend. :) Portugal is still a nice place to visit, despite the circumstances.
 
@E_net4theflagger what happen recently ?
 
OK, other than the obvious pandemic, it is said that Lisbon is facing a 4th wave.
 
6:46 PM
one more time
 
 
4 hours later…
10:51 PM
@E_net4theflagger is that due to the delta variant?
 

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