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9:26 AM
@DrorK. where is your name mentioned in this DR?
helloc all;
 
@PeterVaro He was kind enough to put my name first as an author, but I asked him to remove it
 
how's so?
 
We had quite a few disagreements
I didn't feel like a co-author of this document
 
Wow I have been serial down voted :p
 
@Stargateur report it to a moderator then, like @AaronHall!
 
9:33 AM
np, the system detect it
I get my reput back, but it's funny
 
@DrorK. that's not good.. I mean, it really was your fight :)
@Stargateur you should've told me that right after, so that I did not ping Aaron in vain :P
 
@PeterVaro My fight is about 1. awareness of this issue, 2. hopefully getting it fixed
 
sure, but still
 
@PeterVaro delete maybe this remove the ping
 
it does not, that's not how pinging is working
 
9:35 AM
@PeterVaro The two-weeks campaign I raised- I'm very much happy with it: stackoverflow.com/questions/44745677/…
 
yepp, it was nicely done
I'm not happy that you loose a lot of points, because we could've used them for something else
 
I mean, it's a niche of a niche, and it's only theoretical, not even a real bug or real misbehavior anywhere
 
(like I've already mentioned this to you: hitting 3k would beneficial for you, to vote to close questions)
 
@PeterVaro I didn't lose points, and I offered quid-pro-quo, but nobody wanted, so I said nevermind
 
you win 500 you loose 500...
 
9:37 AM
you didn't? I thought you already had 1k+
but nvm then
 
@PeterVaro I had 1k before I rewarded a 100 points bounty, and then I was at ~950 or so... so I'm at the same place
 
okay then.. we still need you to get +2k :)
I wonder how we can achieve that..
 
Besides, I would've given even 1000 points for this exposure, so I'm very much satisfied with it
I thought of sharing the things I write for the ##c channel wiki, as SO questions+answers
But I'm too worried for people marking them as duplicates
Or, simply being wrong, and then spamming my question... so it's too much of a hassle to deal with
For example the thing with the UB of %p with a null pointer... I can see all the down-voters coming out of the woodworks to protect their precious %p :)
 
but that will always happen :)
 
I don't think this one will get down voted
Some user will be happy to have this Q+A to link it when user send NULL to %p
 
9:43 AM
I guess I can give it a try, since it's relatively short
 
anyway, if a question has already been asked, and even it has an accepted (but uncorrect) answer you can post your correct ansert there, and start a campaign -- and then you can avoid being voted as dup
 
But if people couldn't even see the clear defect of the FAM... I'm having a hard time believing they would 'see' the UB in %p
 
most of the good answers are secondary ones and not the accepted ones
 
@PeterVaro I don't like the idea of posting an answer for somebody else's question
1. these questions are old
2. there are already answers there, with votes, even so they are wrong/inaccurate/etc
 
8
Q: Does printf NULL pointer with %p always give (nil)?

patsebI wonder if does int *a = NULL; printf("%p\n", a); Will always gives (nil) output? Does it depend on standard library implementation, or it's a C99 standard specification?

 
9:45 AM
@DrorK. because of that, most of the google results are having them -- they have high traffic!
 
nvm duplicate
 
@DrorK. so what?
 
@PeterVaro I don't think I should bother investing an hour or two, writing a detailed and elaborated answer for being the 4th answer on 4 years old question
I would rather writing code samples or wiki articles for ##c
 
@DrorK. I think you are wrong
 
@Stargateur @DrorK. almost 5k views! and the ansers are not that great! If you add a new one there, it won't be lost, as the previous ones are all very short
 
9:47 AM
+1
 
we can also start upvoting yours
 
At least there I associate the articles with the bot, so it will be very much useful for a very long time
 
question could be improve too
 
You just said it:
"most of the good answers are secondary ones and not the accepted ones"
 
well, obviously it is your choice on what you want to spend your time, but yeah, this is my two pence
 
9:48 AM
In rust question one user "Shepmaster" rework all question all answer clean them, fix old q+a because rust change etc
 
@Stargateur yepp, we have the power to edit them!
 
yep, but wiselly and him do it from..2-3 years now
rust questions are close to perfect just by him
 
anyway, it's time to clean my flat :/ what a waste of time.. bbl ;)
goto cleaning;
 
Have fun!
@PeterVaro Have you heard about C17?
 
@DrorK. that is the exact thing I'm not going to have :)
 
9:51 AM
C17 is expected to be released by the end of 2017, it will incorporate TCs (Technical Corrigenda).
 
@DrorK. yepp -- you mentioned it a couple of times before
(but seriously, peter, stand up, and do your duty :P )
 
Clean clean clean
 
C stands for Cleaning
:)
/me releases the keyboard slowly..
 
@DrorK. stackoverflow.com/questions/10461360/… I rework the question, now answer :p
if your answer prove that other are wrong we will contact them :p
 
@Stargateur Nah, I'll try my luck with a new question... if it will get closed, then let it close
 
10:01 AM
like you want
 
I think it would be unreasonable to close my correct question+answer, for being a dup for a question with the wrong answer
 
we could close this one for your question too :p order don't watter
 
Obviously they can't move my answer, right?
They can't close my question and move my answer to this question, right?
 
nop, but these answers are wrong so...
I don't think.
 
Okay, so I'll try a new question, I hope later today
@Stargateur void *p = malloc(100); //is this an array?
 
10:04 AM
not in C
 
That's another article I thought writing about
People seem to think that "array" is the same as "array type"
 
well, in a lot of other language this is true
even cpp with new[]
 
void *p = malloc(100); //if (p != NULL) ... then p points to an array of 100 bytes
 
not true :p
 
int arr[100]; // this is an array type
 
10:06 AM
ahhhhh ^^
 
There's another confusion with pointers
int *p; // this is a pointer type
int i; &i //this is an address, which is also a pointer, but is not a pointer type
@Stargateur There are no articles on SO about these matters, right?
I never seen such articles anywhere
 
for array I sure that are hundreds of duplicate about this
 
Really?
 
but I don't understand what you mean with "&i //this is an address, which is also a pointer, but is not a pointer type"
that matter ?
 
People who specifically ask about the terminology?
 
10:10 AM
@DrorK. Oh, I don't know for this precise question
but I don't there are a lot of question difference between array and pointer
 
@Stargateur There's ambiguity when people say "pointer" ... do they refer to the address of an object, or do they refer to an object that can store addresses?
int i; &i; ... this is an address, which is a pointer, but obviously it can't store anything
 
no one care about this ;)
 
int *p; this thing has an address, it is a pointer, but it can also store addresses
 
people when said pointer refer to the variable who store the address
 
People use "pointer" for both ^
int i; func(&i); // I just passed a pointer
int *p; // I have a shiny new pointer
Another thing I wanted to write about:
The convention of using: return 0; for indicating SUCCESS
 
10:41 AM
@DrorK. By the way, you are male or female ?
I wonder if I must use he or she for you :p
 
Male
 
thx, that is more simple that write he/her each time
 
@Stargateur you can use they and their, it is accepted and quite common to use the plural form in singular in case you are not aware of the person's gender
 
I don't like this trick :p
 
Singular they is the use in English of the pronoun they or its inflected or derivative forms, them, their, theirs, and themselves (or themself), as an epicene (gender-neutral) singular pronoun. It typically occurs with an antecedent of indeterminate gender, as in sentences such as: "Somebody left their umbrella in the office. Would they please collect it?" "The patient should be told at the outset how much they will be required to pay." "But a journalist should not be forced to reveal their sources." The singular they had emerged by the 14th century and is common in everyday spoken English, but...
it is not a trick, it is an idiom
 
 
2 hours later…
12:27 PM
@PeterVaro I think it's ready
I say I'll just post it and see the outcry, no need to proof it or anything
 
for the science !
 
0
Q: Printing null pointers with %p is undefined behavior?

Dror K.Is it undefined behavior to print null pointers with the %p conversion specifier? #include <stdio.h> int main(void) { void *p = NULL; printf("%p", p); return 0; } The question applies to the C standard, and not to C implementations.

Let's hope for the best
 
12:43 PM
@DrorK. +2
 
@PeterVaro I wonder if Antti would've marked it as a dup :p
Thanks for the edit
 
^ let's find out: @AnttiHaapala do you dare mark it as dup? ;)
np -- those were just cosmetical ones :)
 
He's passionate about these things, I wouldn't poke him :p
 
I love that we have such tag as:
:)
@DrorK. I also added the specific standard tags
it may help raise the awereness
 
Oh, generally I don't really bother
Is it possible that I haven't been down-voted? ... Where are all the %p warriors that have defended its honor over the years?
 
12:55 PM
@DrorK. quick question though: why do you need the extra assignment? why can't it simply be printf("%p", NULL);?
 
@PeterVaro That's not strictly conforming, you'd need (void *) NULL
 
@DrorK. they've finally learnt how to use the standard? :)
 
And then people would think it has something to do "with the cast"
 
@DrorK. yepp, then that :)
 
And think that the question is actually "out of context"
 
12:56 PM
ahh.. okay then, makes sense
@DrorK. BAMM! first down-vote arrived
 
@PeterVaro Vlad? The Imp Aler...
 
@PeterVaro That's okay- because a supporter has arrived too!
Supporters > Opposers
 
1:20 PM
@DrorK. I think you interpret the paragraph incorrectly. The null pointer constant is a valid value of a pointer. The function fprintf outputs its value. The paragraph describes another cases as for example using a null pointer with string functions. — Vlad from Moscow 9 mins ago
vlad has the same reaction than me :p
 
I've already replied
It doesn't say "null pointer constant" and it refers to "an argument", "a function", and "to the function" ... so there is no ambiguity
 
@PeterJ Whether something is logical and whether something is defined- are two distinct things. Is it logical for memcpy() with a zero 'n' argument to require valid pointers as arguments? — Dror K. 16 mins ago
For me something that it's not logical is ambigus :p
 
@DrorK. I think it is time to invite these folks to this room -- the comment section started to be very lengthy now..
 
That's not how specifications work
 
0
A: Printing null pointers with %p is undefined behavior?

Oliver CharlesworthNo, it is defined behaviour. From [7.19.6.1] in the C99 standard (regarding fprintf conversion specifiers): p - The argument shall be a pointer to void. The value of the pointer is converted to a sequence of printing characters, in an implementation-defined manner. Null is a valid pointer ...

"No, it is defined behaviour." => "in an implementation-defined manner." => "Thus it is defined behaviour.". magic !
"down vote on a perfectly meaningful, short, self-contained, compilable and valid question." calm down calm down !
 
1:32 PM
The %p warriors are coming out of the woodworks! :)
At the beginning I thought that I wouldn't bother spending a bounty on this question
But now, just for the fun of it, I think I would!
 
note that all %p warrior come from c++
 
go for it @DrorK. ;)
and I'm going back to cleaning :/
goto back;
@Stargateur all the fucking time :)
 
And ....? (nil) is a perfectly human readable representation of the null pointer. — PeterJ 2 mins ago
The Knights who say "Ni!" Audio (US) , also called the Knights of Ni, are a band of knights encountered by King Arthur and his followers in the film Monty Python and the Holy Grail. They demonstrate their power by shouting "Ni!" (pronounced "nee"), terrifying the party, whom they refuse to allow passage through their forest unless appeased through the gift of a shrubbery. == Description == The knights appear silhouetted in a misty wood, wearing robes and horned helmets; their number is never apparent, but there are at least six. The leader of the knights, played by Michael Palin, is the only one...
PERFECT
I have understand why this must be UB
Imagine an implementation who need/want information about this pointer used by malloc, this will need to deference the pointer.
stupid as fuck but possible
I think I going crazy
 
1:58 PM
Olaf is confuse, he has answer to many question of bad user.
 
@PeterVaro no worries, most of my pings are in vain... I'm actually quite used to it...
 
2:28 PM
"I'm beginning think you are trolling"
I'm not sure if it's supposed to be amusing, or just plain sad
Morning @IljaEverilä
The second experiment is over :)
 
2:43 PM
chqrlie enter the arena
 
He even considers it to be a defect
I bet $100 the committee wouldn't even allow to submit a DR for it
 
the true question is "do we must remove the UB from this"
committee should have a better vision than us on the question
 
I don't understand
Why the question gets so many upvotes, if they consider the correct answer to be the "obvious" one?
 
G'day @DrorK.
 
What are you up to? @IljaEverilä
 
2:48 PM
I see you're causing a ruckus again :P
 
Hey, it's my day off, so I said let's have another experiment!
 
With the family in countryside
 
I only participate in the chat
 
"With the family" ... so what are you doing here?! :)
 
this thread prove that even high rep user don't understand how to use comment.
 
2:50 PM
What do you mean?
How should you be using comments?
 
Congrats on having a day off. I also started my holiday, aka renovating work camp.
 
@DrorK. Comment are only here to comment... not to debate in comment. This is explicitly a bad behavior and I could clearly as moderator clean all comments...
 
@DrorK. Checking :P +the kids are running around with their friends
 
Secondary discussion or debating a controversial point; please use chat instead;
 
@PeterVaro Well, I think that this question, and the previous question, have proven my point
 
2:57 PM
@DrorK. even if it hurts, unfortunately I agree with Olaf on the quality of the question
 
I agree too
your previous question was a lot better
 
Jeff Atwood on July 01, 2011

The FAQ has contained one key bit of advice from the very beginning:

It’s also perfectly fine to ask and answer your own question, as long as you pretend you’re on Jeopardy! — phrase it in the form of a question.

So …

if you have a question that you already know the answer to

if you have a question that you already know the answer to

if you’d like to document it in public so others (including yourself) can find it later

if you’d like to document it in public so others (including yourself) can find it later …

 
yepp -- here the question is indeed missing the context
 
Where does it say that your question should provide the answer to your question?
 
@DrorK. this is not the problem to self answer you
 
2:59 PM
"It’s also perfectly fine to ask and answer your own question, as long as you pretend you’re on Jeopardy! — phrase it in the form of a question. "
 
the problem is that the suject is more should we interpret the standard like this or like this ? In that your take your answer remove conclusion and get your nice question
 
It doesn't say: "phrase it in the form of a question, followed by an answer"
 
I think this is more of a convention -- let's pretend, you want to get an answer because you don't have any
 
When was the last time either of you played Jeopardy? :)
 
But I don't think that the question deserve "lack of search"
 
3:00 PM
because of that, you would provide as much information in the question as you can
 
But that's not such a question
 
that is, what have you researched so far, etc.
@Stargateur it does not!
 
So you think it would've made sense for me to copy & paste the answer, within the question?
 
nope
I think, the question should've quoted the the parts of the standard that are unlcear in this case
 
but add the quotation of standard in it
 
3:02 PM
and showing what is unclear about it
 
So the question should've been about a different question?
 
and then you can start you argument, on why you think this or that argument is valid or invalid
 
And then the answer should've been about "Yes" / "No" type of thing, and then the answer would've made sense?
 
@DrorK. a little bit, yes
 
I think you're just not accustomed to questions+answers, or the article encouraging such things should be changed
 
3:03 PM
@DrorK. nope I've never said that :)
I think I am, and as you may remember, I did upvoted both the Q and the A
initially I thought everything is okay
but now, I think, it is still okay, but could have been worded better
and that's all I'm saying
that would've allowed us to defend the question itself better
 
Nah, that doesn't matter, I've proven my point the second time around
The user with the higher rep wins
 
The only reason Leffler didn't 'win' is because his answer was a few days after the fact
 
@DrorK. Yes, this is true but this is logic people with high reputation ... have a good reputation ;)
 
I'm still considering placing a bounty
 
3:07 PM
The thing is, the standard is working pretty much as a programming language/program itself. That is, if a global value has already been "set", you only have to "shadow it" in a local scope, if you need something that is only valid locally, or will only apply the change locally. Now, because of that, the above cited 7.1.4. is "setting the global value" and unfortunately the printf family does not shadowing it.. does this kind of explanation make any sense? And because of this, null pointer is indeed invalid for the printf family! — Peter Varo 12 mins ago
haha, best compare ever
 
that does not mean they are right -- although, in this case, the most upvoted answer says basically nothing:
> This is one of those weird corner cases where we're subject to the limitations of the English language and inconsistent structure in the standard. So at best, I can make a compelling counter-argument, as it's impossible to prove it :)
 
@DrorK. I don't think this question deserve a bounty.
 
that is, you as a developer does not have any obligations on changing your style or thingking if you don't want to
 
@PeterVaro But I agree this question has not good answer and is primary opinion based
 
@Stargateur HUH?
@Stargateur This question has gained more upvotes than any of my previous ones
 
3:08 PM
this one has to be more popular than the one, that says, you are doing what you are doing for the last 20 years wrong :)
 
So if this question doesn't deserve a bounty... what question will?
 
@DrorK. I think you miss understood the purpose of a bounty
 
@Stargateur Bounty is for gaining exposure
 
@DrorK. no, bounty is to have an answer
 
That's not what the documentation I've read said. There are multiple reasons for placing bounties
 
3:10 PM
exposure is a side effect
 
One of them is for rewarding an existing answer, for example
Another is for gaining more "attention"
 
yes but this is pointless to reward yourself
 
btw helloc @IljaEverilä; // ;)
 
I didn't say that I can reward myself
Nor I wish to reward myself
I said that I wish for this issue to gain more exposure :)
Even at the risk of people conforming to the "obvious" answer
 
When you are the OP and you self answer your question and that you put a bounty just for that people look it... I don't like that
 
3:12 PM
Hey, I pay for it!
You better like it!
The problem is, that I think I'll have to reward Oliver both the 'voted' answer, and the bounty
Even so I think it's wrong
That's how the game is played right?
 
the last time you reward no one and leffler get 250
 
The last time I ended up with the most upvotes
 
483k + 250.... who fucking care !
 
I meant
 
yep maybe this change thing
 
3:16 PM
I didn't need to select the answer I consider to be wrong, because it received less votes
But now the answer I consider to be wrong, receives more votes... so I'll have to select it?
 
 
2 hours later…
5:28 PM
lol O post my comment to say stop it when modo move all comments to chat :p
timing or script when comment > 50 ?
 
A smart algo should pick it up as a trend
In any case if that's how the people communicate, that's how it is
 
6:19 PM
"no, you should not. In language lawyer arguments, it's always best to first focus on the obvious and strip away what is plainly incorrect/irrelevant, before you get to the heart of the matter. I see how one could argue about 7.1.4, which I will not do at present"
So you first strip away what's incorrect, before you get to the heart of the matter, and once you get to the heart of the matter, you simply: "I will not do at present"
 
 
2 hours later…
8:48 PM
2
Q: Draw rectangles, circles or arbitrary polygons in a m x n matrix

SamuelI want to simulate the flow around objects in two dimensions. Therefore I wrote a program in C which uses the Navier-Stokes equations to describe the motion of fluids. Now I came to the point where I actually want more than just placing a rectangle in the simulation domain. To draw such a rectang...

 

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