« first day (191 days earlier)      last day (3333 days later) » 

00:00
@JimmyHoffa I know that, but in the event you dislike having to edit the registry or download something to say a prod env or environment where you can't, these are the type of code hooks to help you implement the logging such that you could have it push to a sql db or anything else like normal logging
00:52
@Maslow true enough
 
8 hours later…
09:02
G'day all
How goes?
TGIF
Agreed. Although it doesn't make too much difference, I have been working from home for most of this month
btw the html part of FSharp Data Type provider is out
09:08
Cool :)
So, I just installed VS 2015. I want to play with the new F# 4 features
The only problem I see so far is that half of my extensions haven't been ported yet.
Though I do find it amusing that VS now asks you to install node.js and google chrome.
it is funny indeed - I used to use mono longtime ago on Linux and even on Solaris - but it used to be slower than the win version
Since the birth of Xamarin, mono has come a long way
Now that .NET is open sourced, it should go further
I hope so - I used Mono before Xamarin...when it was Novell
do you have any functional programming book which you recommend?
Functional programming in general, or F# specific?
And also target at what level?
Beginner, Int or advanced?
09:29
FP in general - for F# I would recommend Fancher as a start and then expert f# next
What level?
Not specifically FP, but SICP is really good.
Grokking functional programming also has it's moments
But I guess it depends on the topics you want to learn
I personally am waiting for scott Wlaschin's book
me too...very much looking forward to it - I am still tempted to buy "https://leanpub.com/fp-oo"
09:45
Also, have you checked out Mark Seeman's Functional Architecture course on pluralsight?
have not subscriped to pluralsight - have you watched it?
That particular course is really good
Get your company to subscribe :P
 
5 hours later…
15:10
New nuget in VS2015 looks interesting.
15:20
@AshtonKJ I think I read they launched the same dialog for older VS too, and you can install it for VS2010 and up
15:49
...hate...nuget...much... it's defaulting to always grab the latest package has screwed my team over so much, and we shouldn't have to manually go edit our config files to set use specific version, not >= some version as the default is..
16:08
if it was defaulted to use specific version people would complain about not getting latest
@JeroldHaas yeah, likely. All the same, it sucks when I'm done with one branch, have a colleague do a get of the branch for the first time and build and nuget pulls totally different versions of the dependencies for them than it did for me and now what they build and maybe deploy somewhere isn't quite the same as what I was working against...
plus for the longest time common.logging had a dependency on Log4Net >= 1.1, but when Log4Net released a package of 1.2 that had a different interface, nuget would grab that with common logging and then common logging would blow up at runtime because the API changes
might be nice if nuget had a versioning standard that it followed on all packages so it wouldn't have major release conflicts
@JeroldHaas Yes. It's good tooling, it's those little details like that which they got just wrong enough to be frequently painful that ruins it for me
another little detail that irritates me: It has a self update mechanism, but it prefers itself to live in a .nuget folder peering your solution where it goes into source control and will not as such be automatically updated. Why didn't they just tie it into visual studio (it already has a whole package manager console widget for it) such that it lived with your visual studio and notified of available updates frequently like visual studio does?
Just lots of little details they get inexplicably wrong..
16:49
@JimmyHoffa you mean have VS store all the diff versions of diff libraries? sounds like another DLL hell to me
@JeroldHaas no, nuget.exe
not libraries
Visual studio should store and own nuget.exe, if you run nuget.exe update -self it will update itself, but it prefers to live in source control so it will never be updated - the contradiction in those design choices is just a big ?? to me. They should have stored it with visual studio so when visual studio tells you "Hey there's an update for me! Install SP1!" it could all say "Hey, update your nuget now!"
I think that may be for xplat reasons
however I agree it doesn't seem well-thought
@JeroldHaas yeah that's the thing of nuget, well implemented, but just not well thought out in many ways it seems
Still handy though. Be lying if I said I don't use and appreciate it.
I thought it was brilliant when it first came out. I think expectations increase as such technologies become more common-place.
@JeroldHaas indeed. Though to be fair- it's initial release was 2010. MS was very late to the game on this, Java was on like it's 2nd or 3rd generation of this tooling, most all other development stacks had package management tooling for years already...
16:57
@JimmyHoffa CPAN was my first experience into such things
> CPAN was conceived in 1993
yes it's rather old.
I'd first started using it about 5 years later.
NuGet didn't come about until 2010... Haskell had Cabal, Ruby gems, Java had Maven and Gradle and others I believe, Node NPM, surely others had managers I'm not aware of heh
Issue is that the majority of those mentioned - and in my memory, as well, are interpreted libraries. Although the change from plaintext to binary isn't much, I'm sure there are obstacles to overcome.
17:42
I wonder if you could use a Type Provider to create value-constrained-types like phaux dependent typing... let findStr (s:String Lower Invariant) = [...] so compile time checking could say "pfft, you tried to "findStr" something that wasn't a Lower Invariant string" just like how you can constrain type parameters on generics, except type provider could give you the runtime-execution of user defined constraints like "Lower" and "Invariant" on String, or user defined range checks on numerics...
18:36
yes indeed
gonna do some engine work over the next day or two, and then call it a week
@BryanEdds ....the week does end in the next day....
my week knows no calendars
how I use nuget -
create a temp visual studio solution used only for grabbing nuget dlls
pull down a nuget package
I find nuget package explorer good for that
find the 3 of 15 files that actually have the files I need
copy those over to the nice clean subfolder in my project folder that I actually want them
git add the copied files
and that is how to use nuget
updating dependencies follow a similar process
19:12
@BryanEdds do you do any talks?
I should, but I'm never near the venues
Why not do something like what Andrea is doing and do it on Google Plus?
not worth doing it that way
Why not?
if someone wants me to give a talk, they can pay to fly me out
or at least help with the expense
19:15
Damn. :P
What about those of us that are poor :P
we have to huddle up for warmth
I have maybe a couple thousands dollars to my name and no income currently
so I'm scurried away in some nowhere town just to do the little unconstrained development I can
Fair enough.
I am working 2 jobs. One for a boss and at the same time trying to create a business.
@Br
gah! awful auto-complete
cold in here :)
@BryanEdds I know that feeling - I'm currently working no jobs as well. Open source is distinctly not paying right now!
19:22
you'll have that
I normally contract/consult, but it's as if sensible contracts have been scoured from the earth right now. Either that or I've unwittingly used some kind of code for "I'm a murderer" in my CV.
you have engineers who walk around like god's gift to human progress, but if you ask them to support your OSS work in anyway, they just stare blankly and walk away
I'd be honored to have you do a talk on your engine @BryanEdds
might be a good opportunity for you to find more interested devs
I could put together a really good talk I think
@JeroldHaas +1. I'd want to see that
19:24
I'm recording the hangouts, too, and adding to the c4fsharp youtube group
That's kind of what I was getting at with the original question
@BryanEdds, it would be good advertising for Nu ;)
dunno; I'd really like to a proper talk that people would actually watch online
now, I would be happy to do something in an interview format
Maybe you could even work with someone like Andrea. That way we would have 2 perspectives on functional game dev.
@BryanEdds did you get my dm?
@JeroldHaas i will try and make sure they record the Freya talk anyway!
19:27
I have a few people that might be interested if there was more material on Nu.
dm? where?
oh, I see it
tweetdeck was giving me errors so not sure if it went through
ya, I'll be happy to attend that
hey, ya, I forgot you're in OH too
Night all.
g'night @AshtonKJ
@BryanEdds are you in OH?
19:36
ya, small town called Lebanon
no way
maybe we should grab beers sometime
Yeah, that sounds great! I'm south of Dayton
there's a sweet bar here - I don't have a car though, so you'd have to pop this way
actually I live in Middletown so we're very close you know
19:38
they got world's best chicken wangs
I have a friend who also lives in Middletown
well that's very promising. I'd thought there was little to no chance of forming at least a FP user group
let alone a F#
hey, it'd be an awesome group even if it is just us
I was thinking of starting a SWO FP UG
The "Jerold and Bryan F# Hour", brought to you by these awesome chicken wings.
19:40
well, I'm literally available whenever you want to pop up this way
guest starring a new york strip so rare it runs off the plate
lol
haven't tried their steaks yet; could be good
and hey, maybe we could set up a talk locally after all, say columbus or cinci or whatever
whereever would actually draw people
I was thinking columbus would be good, being a hub city and all
ya
you're driving tho :)
anyways, e-mail me [email protected] if you want to set something up
brb
hey @kolektiv
19:45
hey @JeroldHaas :)
looking forward to seeing that talk. it might be just what we need to get this shop moved to F#
apache-mod_mono doesn't seem a good fit due to the config profile that's needed to do it
but we are looking for something that will "play nicely" with apache: we still have php clients etc.
we do have a windows server so keeping them separate is another consideration
well, running on linux still depends on some kind of .net capable server. kestrel looks like it may be that, but hard to say yet. not sure how well katana or similar works on mono - might see if ryan knows!
Ryan had a few suggestions but none looked Apache-friendly
I'd just remembered our hosting prices are close in cost to our LAMP hosting so might just drop the Apache compatibility thing altogether
no, i've rarely heard good experiences with apache/mono. i'd personally err more on the side of smaller lighter servers proxied behind nginx or similar.
I'd be extremely happy if we can work out some solution to the point that we consider the LAMP stack to be "legacy"
19:50
hah, i can imagine there's a lot of people who feel a bit like that!
the apache config won't allow suexec if running mod_mono IIRC
which opens a whole can of admin-level file permissions headaches if we can't keep it that way
yeah - the whole mod_mono thing feels like a hack that got adopted in general i think
if it had compatibility with one of the security abstraction modules (like suexec) it would be better
but I don't know if the issue is lack of interest in developing it that way or if it's simply not possible
i don't know how much dev it sees these days. i can't imagine it's got many people working on it.
20:35
Very pleased. Got the green light at work for developing OSS CMS in F#.
(on idle cycles of course)
@JeroldHaas you lucky dev!
I've convinced mgmt a while ago on using the lang, was just a matter of finding a product.
what state, OH?
Yes.
Now I just need to find a good framework to use to build this CMS
product name will come later. I'll just call it fsharpcms for now
20:48
Functions with side-effects are like the sith... always two there are. - Robert Martin
20:59
haha nice one @BryanEdds
totally dorked out on that one :)
@JeroldHaas where?
@Maslow "concrete column:" Cincinnatti to Dayton area
but that's quite a drive for you, being in FL ;)
yeah
21:29
Paket is a bundle of happiness. It really is.
21:39
@JimmyHoffa "Paket serves a specific need, that is SemVer-compatible NuGet."
There you have it.
@JeroldHaas yes, I have heard of and seen some improvements over nuget out there, haven't looked super closely at any of them though. Will take a look at this one though, thanks! Unfortunately NuGet being a part of visual studio makes it the de facto standard to be accepted as better than all-comers just like C# is clearly better than F# in the eyes of my team and most others..
@JimmyHoffa I'm using Paket as part of the F# ProjectScaffold. Aside from adding deps manually with a text file and using command line to trigger updates it looks like precisely what you want.
@JeroldHaas I suspect so; unfortunately I do not get to decide the technologies I work with.
I think your team needs a re-education ;)
may very well give it a push though as others on my team have registered a modicum of displeasure with NuGet as well
21:43
curious how Paket can be included in a hybrid C#-F# project or even in a C# only. I'm quite sure it's possible
@JeroldHaas welcome to the software industry, enjoy your stay.
@JeroldHaas oh is it F# specific?
Not sure. I doubt it, though.
Automated conversion option
yes I saw that
> Even more importantly: If two packages reference conflicting versions of a package, NuGet will silently take the latest version (read more). You have no control over this process.
^-- this caused innumerable runtime errors with Log4Net for me which I had to fix manually each time someone new did a deployment of some of our apps...
irritating as shit.
> No, we don't run any script or program from NuGet packages and we have no plans to do this in the future. We know that this might cause you some manual work for some of the currently available NuGet packages, but we think these install scripts cause more harm than good.
^-- I completely agree with this stance and approach, but this makes it basically a non-starter for many as they expect their packages to be installed batteries-included - folks don't want to have to read documentation to find out what they have to add to their web/app.config, or for PostSharp for instance it actually installs shit into Visual Studio itself and binds itself to be a part of the compile so it can do the IL weaving
@JimmyHoffa do you use install.ps1 scripts often?
@JeroldHaas it's not that I use them, it's that nuget package publishers use them
21:51
I find it difficult to believe there are devs who can't cope with these type of items
@JeroldHaas it's not about coping, it's just about choice: Much of the enterprise world has an unbounded laziness that will always choose the easier option. Or good companies won't hire me so my perspective is totally skewed, who knows...
countless hours are lost over these "convenience features" when they fault
when otherwise a README and command line would suffice
@JeroldHaas yes but they can argue about the source of that time loss, many would rather use the conveniences and then just say No True Scotsman has those problems because No True Scotsman does it that way
it's a time up front vs. time in the end, this industry is obsessed with the belief that they don't have to spend time up front or in the end, so the vast majority of decisions in this industry are based around not spending time up front and hoping they gambled right and won't spend time in the end either
Industry has a badly unbalanced view of cost.
@BryanEdds truth.
22:01
To the point at which it is practically anti-science.
The worst is when programmers adopt such an attitude due to their cowardice.
@BryanEdds you say that as if anti-science isn't a common stance from people
@BryanEdds Expert Experts
> Both Brawlers and Expert Experts are an attempt at managerial arrogation over a field (computer programming) that is utterly opaque to non-technical managers. Brawlers are the tough-culture variety who attempt to establish themselves as top performers by externalizing costs to the future and “the maintenance team” (which they intend never to be on). Expert Experts are their rank-culture counterparts who dress their mediocrity and lack of curiosity up as principled risk-aversion.
I think most 'normal' people nowadays are neutral about science at worst.
sounds about right
@BryanEdds the concept of science, yes, the application of science... Far too little from-the-gut Truthiness in it, thus why people so commonly accuse people who are "book smart" of not having "common sense" aka -> They don't know the things I feel to be true
man F# needs edit-and-continue so bad...
Yeah I'd love to see edit-and-continue implemented
22:11
speaking of the above, I am terrified of Judo players
Judo itself is terrifying
I only do the little I have to in BJJ to get by
The 'safe' Judo takedowns are pretty awesome tho
this is my favorite because its very safe and effective -
I used it against a guy 60 lbs heavier (and 1 foot taller) than me in backyard match
I actually had to be gentle with it to avoid hurting him
Here's a better video of the move - youtube.com/watch?v=WQf_pSK6zGk
for me though, I could have totally slammed the shit out of him without putting myself in any danger

« first day (191 days earlier)      last day (3333 days later) »