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20:00
@RobertHarvey Ahhh but this meta Q has always been annoying me that Jeff did reject: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/98926/…
Final Question: Final thoughts from the candidates?
@quantumSoup Not in meta, at first, plenty of people's actions have been questioned in meta without exposing the person themselves. If the discussion in meta showed a resolution, then I'd enact it as a mod, referencing the original discussion in meta.
@RebeccaChernoff Where are the sandwiches I have heard of?
@BradLarson What if we later found out it was just one of their coworkers and the mod. had no part in it? You just created a lot of drama and tarnished the moderator's reputation.
@RobertHarvey Yes, I've disagreed with some of Jeff's decisions. But that's part of team work: not everyone can have their way at all times. That the way the cookie crumbles, as my mother used to say...
20:01
@RebeccaChernoff Same as last night, thank you, it's a wonderful experience, and I'm happy to be here among so many other qualified candidates. Thank you for the opportunity, and no matter what, SO is going to be better off as a result.
@MrDisappointment I'm sure that my answer to this will be change based on experience. At first I'll start slowly, but as I become more comfortable, I'll move faster.
@RobertHarvey Few of them, but I don't think I have enough time to look back at his answers and find these I don't agree with
@badp GMT/BST depending on time of year - that means I wake up before the US and could start to look at some of the Oceania timezone issue build up relatively promptly still
@RebeccaChernoff: BTW, thanks for such a quick and thorough turnaround on the digest.
@RebeccaChernoff Thanks and have a great day! ^_^
20:02
@RebeccaChernoff This was just as stressful as the last, but I'm glad to have experienced it.
@NullUserExceptionఠ_ఠ Respectfully back down. If the broad majority of users disagree, then they likely win. Although I'd also mention that it varies by situation. If other mods agree, I'd be more likely to "hold my position".
@casperOne thanks goes to @TimStone as well. We'll finish the first one and get the second one up later today hopefully
@RebeccaChernoff I would like to thank you for the chance to participate here, it was a wonderful experience. Have a nice day!
@RobertHarvey I haven't gotten him to follow up on one of my meta questions, but that was about a technical issue with the site so I doubt it'd affect my moderation.
@RebeccaChernoff Thanks to @TimStone as well then!
20:03
Ok folks, we're past the hour
@TimCooper I was thinking about this today. There's possibly an element of that, but it's also likely that high rep users are providing better answers, both technically and in terms of presentation and distilling a question to the core point.
@RobertHarvey I can't dig up the Meta issues that I've disagreed with him on, but I do recall emailing the team and having an argument back in the day about the value of votes on questions vs. votes on answers. I thought they should count less on questions and he did not. In the end, he did respond to the community and lowered the question vote value. As with everyone, be polite and explain your reasoning clearly.
@RobertHarvey None of them were concerned about the moderation
Thanks everyone for participating
@RebeccaChernoff can we carry on answering the backlog?
20:04
Best of luck to the candidates!
@RebeccaChernoff Thank you for letting me be here!
@RebeccaChernoff In other words..... Die die die.
@awoodland Ditto.
@RebeccaChernoff THANKS ^_^
May God have mercy on your souls!
@MichaelMyers wow
'night gentlemen. 4:05 am here now.
@quantumSoup My answer was to your earlier question about abdicating the moderator post if you're no longer able to serve, not the one about bad actions by moderators.
@awoodland yes of course, just continue with the explicit replies
This is why we refer to Bill the Lizard as a machine.
20:05
What if a mod becomes evil?
@Xaade - they'd be removed, if that happened.
@RebeccaChernoff Although I guess it makes the most sense to only stick to questions from this session, or no?
@Xaade again. The Doctor
Take care all, and thanks.
@NullUserExceptionఠ_ఠ I'm great with grammar and spelling, and, I enjoy editing.
20:07
Do any of the candidates have experience with the language Brainf_ck?
WT_?
@Xaade Not me.
I've been modded!!!!!
@MichaelMyers I should mention that some SO employees handle a ton of flags also; the piece on the right only covers the last few of them.
^_^
Tries with "Brainfusion."
20:08
@AdamDavis I don't think my time on the site would change hugely. My use of mod tools (10k and otherwise) clearly would but I'm not going to make unsustainable promises. As far as minimum hours per week goes I don't think it's a great metric, people take holidays etc. I'd say the alarm bells should ring when a mod is out of touch through a lack of activity but defining a solid figure without good data to begin with seems premature
@TimStone probably, but we can't stop the madness (;
gets out the pointy stick I disagree.
@MrDisappointment I used to ask a lot of questions, but at one point I began answering more. Then I started to edit more. I'll probably continue to edit more, and use the 10K tools more often.
@Xeon06 if I don't get elected my views on the site won't change. I'd probably re-run baring some major change
@NullUserExceptionఠ_ఠ As I answered @MrDisappontment, I'd probably spend larger amounts of time moderating than asking/answering. Moderating is a responsibility, but also a privilege - which I'd like to take advantage of, given the opportunity.
20:11
@RebeccaChernoff MADNESS! This is Sp_rta.
Ok, I give.... I don't even see a reasonable reason to censor that.
@Shog9 depends how big the flaw was - I wouldn't edit to correct a major flaw (that would be changing the meaning of the answer in my view). I'd probably comment and vote with a view to changing the vote once the flaw was corrected if it was major
@awoodland We need a C++ regular for a mod.
@random The yearling badge does make sense a requirement because it guarantees a baseline of experience with the system.
@Xaade (pick me? I'm semi regular and I'm in C++ class now :P)
no, it guarantees that someone first visited the site a year ago
no more, no less
20:14
@random Be intellectually honest and avoid controversy.
@Moshe Really? Mod tools and stuff outstanding. I don't think it took that long for me to understand "the system". Maybe realizing the unspoken rules.... but unspoken rules are a flow, not a feature.
@phwd it depends what value the question delivers by still existing. closed/locked is a sensible status for questions which were topical and were interesting, but the community sense of "topical" has shifted.
@Xaade Getting used to using the 10K tools is a big deal, IMHO
@Xaade I'm not saying that if you don't have the badge then you're inexperienced, but it means that you most likely don't have less than X experience. The reason why it was removed is your argument - a year may be unnecessary.
@MichaelMrozek There's some merit to the idea that a mod can't always classify content when they have little to no experience in a language. If the mod tools don't benefit a mod interesting in a top x tag, then the mod tools are deficient. So, your argument is after the fact, and doesn't discuss the real issue.
20:16
@AdamDavis I think I already do a fair amount of moderation. How my time is spent clearly would shift to focus on different tasks, but fundamentally not a huge change for my usage patterns.
@random I don't think it's particularly my place to "oust" anyone. I hope that the answer to "who will mod the mods?" would lead to more senior people (e.g. SE employees) spotting such things
@Xaade As I said earlier:
17 hours ago, by Kevin Vermeer
@jonsca When answering that question, you can probably reference the fact that a lot of the mods on SE 2.0 sites didn't have 10k before becoming mods, the tools aren't that hard to learn, and there's always TL to consult if you're not sure. Being in the primary is usually a good proxy to being savy with a computer. Evidence that you could make good decisions when using the tools would, IMO, be much more important than knowing how to use them.
@Xaade What is it you think mods do? I don't know what you mean by "classify content", but it doesn't sound like anything mods handle
@AdamDavis I try to shy away from arguments, but I've had a disagreement about adding a feature. The argument lasted less than 5 comments. I can be passionate, but I usually don't have arguments. Thinking about it more, I have gotten burned on several feature requests.
@quantumSoup that would depend on how long term and how low the lack of dedication would be, but I think it would be the right thing to do for long term low activity
@quantumSoup avoiding a confrontation here would be best. that probably means an email to 'team@', although a private chat might be appropriate if possible
@Shog9 Fairly familiar.
@TimPost If I'm unfamiliar with the subject, defer to other mods. If I'm certain that it's fine, dispute the flags.
20:23
@RobertHarvey I dislike that so far all of the "block bad migrations by X" have been declined. Some bad migrations are painful to watch (although can often be averted by a plain vote to close + a mod flag and comment). I don't think that's a big problem though!
@mizo I love grammar, languages, and writing!
@TimPost Leave it, considering that mod powers are for fixing other people's mistakes, not to let me game the system.
@studiohack Keep an eye on the situation, try and determine who's right. If the user is correct, privately discuss with the mod and try to work it out with them. Never question another mod in public.
@RebeccaChernoff thanks if you've voted for me so far. (If you're hesitant I'd be glad to chat more - I'm regularly in the C++ chat room if I've got a web browser to hand) I'd like more moderator tools to increase the usefulness of the things I do. In exchange for that I'll do my best to be fair, efficient and reflect the will of the community.
@TimPost I consider that to be an abuse of mod powers, to be honest. Thats not to say that I wouldn't rule it out completely, but most likely not.
@AdamDavis That's what the 10k and mod tools are for, no? If I see something that needs to be dealt with, it's silly not to do so simply because "nobody else flagged it yet", but again, case by case is an important consideration.
@TimPost Back down where appropriate. There's no reason to entertain confrontation.
@RebeccaChernoff - the star questions as you read/reply thing worked quite well until I ran out of stars. I don't think I've ever hit that limit before
@random I wouldn't be the one to handle it. I'd defer punishment to another mod.
20:31
there's a star limit?
@awoodland - Keep a second window with the transcript open and scroll down?
@cHao apparently so
@awoodland yeah, that's why I tell people to save them for the questions (:
@RebeccaChernoff I was chatting quite a lot today before this started
20:34
@awoodland I hit it during the first THC and had none for this one
@RobertHarvey Spelling and grammar are important for communication. Capitalization is also important. Generally, I'd try to assess where the deficiency stems from. If the user uses textspeak, it's not the same as just plain poor grammar skills. Sometimes it's negligence and sometimes it's a result of lack of knowledge.
yeah, I guess having both in the same UTC day was maybe not the best of ideas.
Then again, that's when people said they could make it!
not my fault (:
@badp I participate both on SO chat, and on Meta chat. I consider myself to be knowledgable in the workings of chat.
@AdamDavis No, but I've flagged.
@RebeccaChernoff You make this claim suspiciously often.
lol
but it's true!
20:36
Ok, done!
Thanks @RebeccaChernoff, @MichaelMrozek, @TimStone!
(I don't think I won anyway, so...)
@MichaelMrozek We could assign blame to the person(s) responsible for that limit being put into place to begin with, but...
Oh lawd... this is creepy, "election ends in 6 days (2011-11-22 20:00:00Z)" also means exactly a year since my appendectomy (which I mentioned in my nomination if anyone read that far)
Darn thing that broke my SO streak >:(
@MichaelMrozek I mean, if you don't know a tag well enough, how can you tell if a question is off-topic. Generically you can determine if it should be closed. However, someone not familiar with the context will have false close-worthy positives and negatives.
@Xaade You don't need to know C++ well to be able to identify if a question is on-topic, it's not that nuanced
@Xaade Most tags here are going to have something to do with software dev in some way anyway... I think common sense will suffice for that.
20:44
@MichaelMrozek it is far easier to spot dupes in tags you're familiar with though. And merging dupes sensibly seems like it would be quite tricky if there's subtle differences between questions
@awoodland Yeah, duplicates are a different beast...
@awoodland Mods don't need to spot dupes, that's part of my point. That's not a mod thing, it's a 3k user thing. I can see merging being difficult maybe
@awoodland Withstanding the actual selection process. Which dupe is better?
I don't think it's that hard to imagine that someone familiar with the tag would be better at moderating the tag.
I don't understand how that's not common sense.
@MichaelMrozek I totally agree with that, but dupe merging is always going to be a mod task isn't it?
@MichaelMrozek or is that some 30k tool in the pipleine?
As far as I know it's staying mod only; I was agreeing with that part
@Xaade Because "moderating the tag" isn't a thing. Mods moderate the whole site; most of the time they're not even going to look at the tags on a question. They see a flag, they deal with it, and being familiar with a tag is rarely necessary. @awoodland's merging example is one case where it might help, but that's about it
20:52
@MichaelMrozek So, if there's a C++ question, and the flag is stating that the question is too simple because a simple google search gives the answer. How do you judge if the question is simple enough to close?
@Xaade - assuming that's a close question flag 10k users would handle it probably
and then it should only be 10k users who feel confident judging that specific question
(if it's via the other box then 10k users don't see it)
People shouldn't be flagging questions as too simple anyway, that's not something that requires a mod
@awoodland So mods are really glorified secretaries. Modding generic or obvious problems. If mods are mainly for obvious problems, then why can't the 10k users do that as well?
Mods are 10k users who can do things we don't want to trust anyone with just a certain amount of rep to do, that's all
@Xaade Please don't call us secretaries. Call us janitors.
20:56
If anything, I'd expect mods to be more technical than the average user, judging difficult cases that 10k users can't fairly judge.
@xaade - it's not split along the obvious/non-obvious line, it's split on how trusted a user needs to be to handle it sensibly
@awoodland rep isn't a measure of trust?
@Xaade rep is an approximate measure of trust, knowledge and experience all rolled into one
@awoodland Then mods are unnecessary.
When you get into things like contacting individual users or destroying accounts, you want a fixed number of responsible people doing it, not just anyone who manages to accrue a certain amount of rep
Anything related to "this post sucks" probably doesn't require a mod -- users can already handle it
20:59
@MichaelMrozek fixed users willing and interested too - there are some very high rep users who are keen not to see that stuff
Then why is parts of flagging automated, to say, chat ban, or such. If flags alone can judge "banning accounts", then they can judge "destroying accounts". From what I see, the mod is redundant with the system, because the system itself doesn't trust the mod.
@Xaade You don't really consider 30 minute chat suspensions and destroying a user's main site account to be equally powerful, do you?
@Xaade a fully automated deletion of accounts would be open to abuse and so frustrating to interact with
@MichaelMrozek That was sarcastic.
I'm implying the opposite.
That the system is taking up mod-space, and I'm seeing less reason to have mods.
so you have 4 quadrants basically
tasks which are simple and anyone can do
tasks which are complex and anyone can do
tasks which are complex and only mods can do (really hard)
tasks which are simple and only mods can do
21:03
@Xaade That's probably a good thing; people abuse flags endlessly and expect mods to do a lot of things they really aren't needed for
Point being. If that's the case, then mods shouldn't get 1-close-votes, or other moderator privileges that the community can already take care of.
@MichaelMrozek You just showed that flags automatically doing anything is a broken concept.
@Xaade I have no idea how I did anything of the sort
@Xaade The assumption is if we trust mods to do the really important stuff, it's kind of silly that they still need to vote on things like closing a post; clearly they know what they're doing or they wouldn't be mods
@xaade - sometimes you get things where that can't/won't occur organically - so binding close votes are useful
(e.g. closing off-topic questions on low-traffic tags)
"people abuse flags endlessly" + "parts of flagging automated, to say, chat ban" --> flagging system broken.
I've got to run now. I think the current set up is quite a good solution to a multi-objective optimisation problem
there might be tweaks, but that's what suggestions on meta are for :)
21:07
@awoodland Then let a single high-rep member overturn a binding vote. Mods can't both be specialize enough to binding close, and generic enough to not allow a mod per tag. Paradoxical statement of the century.
That's what I'm getting at.
You're giving them abilities assuming that they will have specialized knowledge, then denying the fact that they need to have specialized knowledge to appropriately use those abilities.
@Xaade What are you talking about.
@Xaade Well, I thought the context was clear, but I meant "people abuse mod flags endlessly to ask mods to do things normal users can do"
@MichaelMrozek And people abuse chat flags endlessly to the point that it results in a chat ban. Hence broken.
@Xaade How did we go from "mods don't need to specialize in certain tags" to "chat flags are broken"?
I don't think that chat flags should auto-ban people, but I don't know how it's at all relevant
@Shog9 I believe that binding close votes should be reserved for closing a question that doesn't have traffic, or closing a question that does have traffic but only if the mod is knowledgeable on the subject. The current system does not make that distinction, and it has resulting is false close positives. Having top 30 tags each have a dedicated mod would reduce the amount of false close positives, but I've been berated for suggesting such. I haven't demonstrated to people in this room.
21:13
@Xaade I'm missing where this isn't possible in the current system.
I think you're saying that the system should actually disallow mods from closing new posts, but generally we trust mods a little more than that
You may have seen moderators responding to flags asking for a question to be closed that shouldn't have, and incorrectly closing it - this has happened, and it's largely a symptom of two factors: too few mods, too many flags thrown in their faces. We're tackling both of these problems: most flags now have to spend time in front of 10Kers before getting any mod attention, and more moderators are being brought on board.
@MichaelMrozek Because mods should be more specialized than the community. And you disagree. Chat ban on flags is a result of having too much for a mod to do because the system doesn't let the community do so, until it automated assuming the community knows better. They're related because I can't work out, given the current system, what a mod should be doing.
If a tag doesn't have enough 10K users to properly handle opening / closing / editing, then it certainly doesn't warrant having its own moderator.
The obvious answer is performing maintenance. Closing what wouldn't normally close, and such. But how can that be fair if the mod isn't versed in the context of the tag he's working in?
@Shog9 And there's my answer..... Thanks.
21:17
@Xaade This blog post might help. Mods aren't going to handle edge cases where it's tough to tell if a post is bad -- they handle epic problems and take actions normal users can't take. That's really it
@MichaelMrozek And I think, what you're thinking and not saying, is that Mods shouldn't close questions where the close reason is too technical and the mod doesn't have experience in that field.
If that's an understood rule, then that answers my questions.
@MichaelMrozek There you go. We both thought the same.
I'm on board now.
Certainly they shouldn't close if they're not sure if the post should be closed, which I guess is the same thing
So if mods regularly ran into that situation then I'd understand needing tag-specific mods, but hopefully high-rep users in the individual tags are already closing those questions
@MichaelMrozek Yeah, except there has been arguments between 10k users in a tag, and mods outside of a tag. Are you suggesting that this may be an indicator of a poor decision on the mod's part?
SO long ago passed the point where any reasonable number of moderators could handle things like closing. This can sorta work on much, much smaller sites... But by the time you hit the scale of SO, you either depend on the community doing the vast bulk of the work, or you throw up your hands and watch it go down the tubes.
@Xaade It may. Or it may be parochial 10K users. This is why we have Meta, so that disputes can be handled in public.
I'm sorry. I believe the previous disagreement was my lack of communication skills showing.
21:25
FWIW: if anyone hasn't seen the new Review page yet, check it out. Much, much more useful. Especially if you're interested in closing things that aren't getting enough attention, or keeping things from being closed that just need some TLC.
@Shog9 Now I understand the intent of the Mod. Handle generic cases that can't be handled by the community. If the case is too technical, the Mod should rely on the community. Anytime a Mod closes an edgy question that they have no experience, they've crossed the line.
That's a reasonable rule of thumb. There's more than enough work to be had handling the deluge of obvious crap that flows into every tag.
@AnnaLear Yeah I knew that PSE was used as a bit of a dumping ground, and that isn't helped by the fact there is an overlap between that and SO (there are q's that could belong on either)
@AdamDavis IMO, 3 hours a day or more is a good minimum benchmark. Personally I spend considerably more time than this so being elected would not mean I had to change my attendance pattern. Of course I say this without knowing the specifics of exactly how much mod work needs to be chewed through per day, but IMO if you can't spend the 3 hours then you are only a light user of the site.
@Shog9 Worthy of a medal once enough has been done. The badge is to reward consistent behaviour, without it people would be less inclined to be admirable for long periods of time :)
@phwd As I mentioned in my moderator spiel, this is an area that needs to be cleaned up. However I do believe that some of these old questions need to be preserved because they are part of the fabric and history of SO, and some of them can be quite enlightening or educational.
@random You need to raise it with them first, remind them that modding is a duty and responsibility, not just the ultimate badge. You then discuss your concerns with the other mods. If enough agree then you can form a witch-burning mob and.... ask them to step down.
@quantumSoup Treat them the same as any other user, they shouldn't get preferential treatment in this area just because they are a mod. But having said that, I would expect a mod to be of good character and not engage (or even need to engage) in that sort of behaviour.
@TimPost I have noticed this actually is the case with some of the VLQ flags in the queue. VLQ is a matter of opinion, but I wonder sometimes if they are raised maliciously on answers... in any case, I would prefer that people down vote and save the VLQ flags for the truly low quality posts. I've posted on meta about this before: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/94783/…
@TimPost If I would do it for a user, then I would do it for myself. IOW, if the edits were over a period of time and done to make it into a truly brilliant and helpful answer, then I would revert it from CW. If not (i.e. the edits were because of slack editing or being lazy with the answer) then it stays CW.

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