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01:18
Whenever I look for possible duplicate questions for some particular topics, I find at least 5 of them. This time, I found these: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
8 9 10 11 and it takes forever to determine which one is the best, or if they're all the same or can be separated into two groups, etc..
 
2 hours later…
03:00
@user202729 Amen ....amen. There is much curation work to do.
Kind of embarrassing for high-rep users to close a question as needs details after I answer it and OP protests to the first one that it was understood so it doesn't need any more details.
@Joshua Just because one person can determine the problem does not mean that most people can or that future researchers will be able to isolate the problem. It is best when the question contains a clear picture of what went wrong. This can make the question easier to search for and/or make it easier for researchers to compare their problem with the OP's problem.
If I could make a serious improvement to the question I would do so, but I have to keep OP's not-quite-right terms or he won't understand his own question.
Questions are most complete when they provide relevant diagnostic details from error logs and variable values.
Of course, I cannot see the question (and don't have time to investigate anyhow), so my words are generalized.
My point is, it doesn't necessarily mean that the closer(s) should be embarrassed.
03:43
1 message moved to SOCVR /dev/null, This appeared to primarily be intended to bump the already existing request, which is something that is not permitted in SOCVR.
@mickmackusa there are 7 questions asked in '10 or before, so perhaps back then there aren't that many duplicate finders... (or question suggestion feature is not as good, or Google /DuckDuckGo isn't available)
But they will definitely make duplicate chains longer and knowledge scattered nowadays. (for instance, the inspect.getmembers solution are not posted on most of them)
I think the bigger problem is that you 25 rep for answering a duplicate and nothing but a headache from the OP for closing it as a duplicate after spending 10 minutes looking for the perfect one. But good luck fixing that problem.
At least it's better nowadays (because most of those questions are old) , although it could be that I simply can't find them.
Maybe Roomba didn't exist back then?
Could be. If they stay for long enough they will get some upvotes.
04:03
@IanCampbell yup, yup, yup. There needs to be a fundamental shift if content has any chance of getting cleaned up and consolidated.
05:29
@KenWhite RO maybe manually move to graveyard; typo in cv-pls tag
@tripleee Agreed. I missed the typo when I posted it. If I could delete it I would. Thanks!
@user202729 I went over those and closed most as duplicates, but a couple of them seemed distinct enough (though probably there are separate canonicals for those too)
the Python room has a wiki which attempts to collect canonicals for many common questions, but I find more often than not that it doesn't have a good canonical for questions I come across, especially for trivial beginner questions
the wiki is at sopython.com; you can probably get write access by simply requesting it in the Python room here
05:55
in Python, 23 secs ago, by tripleee
also added a new draft https://sopython.com/canon/143/obtain-all-attributes-of-an-object/ based on a discussion over in SOCVR
Is this on-topic?
@oguzismail migrated now; so no (-:
06:11
@tripleee Yeah. Is there an easy way to tell whether a machine-learning (or whatever the general name is) question is on-topic? Or do we send all of them to CV/Stats.SE?
migration is always problematic; definitely not all of them
someone who has high rep on stats.SE would be able to tell which ones are acceptable there
stats.stackexchange.com/help/on-topic has "machine learning" as one bullet point with no qualifications on it
Meh, I better not touch those questions at all
06:35
@tripleee Cbg!
06:48
@rene it is -- what shall we do about the smell?
We need moar flowers ....
07:09
I hammered a question 22 minutes ago and someone answered it right now. Caching issue?
can I call for reopen of a question where I have answered, not sure about this involvement rule
@oguzismail there is a window during which questions can still be answered after closing, I think something like half an hour but maybe there was also a mechanism involving whether or not the answer had been started before the question was closed (SO does a wonderful job of saving work in progress, as you can easily see if you start answering something and then close that page, then reopen it)
07:24
Huh, didn't know. Thanjs
Huh, didn't know. Thanks
07:36
@Ruli No: "Do not request action on posts or edits where you are involved or where you have a conflict of interest. For questions and answers: You are "involved" in the question and all answers to the question if you are the author of the question or the author of any non-deleted, non-community-wiki answer on the question." Please see FAQ #15.
@tripleee The backend check cuts off answers 4 hours after the question is closed (cc @oguzismail). Prior to 4 hours after the question is closed, the system relies on a check performed by the frontend, which may not be accurate.
@oguzismail if you started answering and the question gets closed under your hands, the "post your answer" button gets disabled in the DOM. If you open the dev console, find the button, remove the disabled attribute, you can then post the answer. Given you're within the 4 hour timeframe as indicated by Makyen I've done that trick a few times, specially on Meta where there is a notorious close vote mob ...
07:59
@Makyen 4 hours? whoa
@rene 1337 flower
@oguzismail I'm not the worst offender: data.stackexchange.com/meta.stackoverflow/query/1368532
2
I can conclude that Mods abuse that option a lot ...
Congrats to Tim Post for having two spots in the top 5 ...
08:23
the older answer is definitely NAA ^
The newer one is VLQ/probably also NAA, in my book.
"Create a void function and use 'if' statement inside it" isn't nearly enough to be an answer. That describes...most code. And the rest is images of code, which don't count.
@rene Can moderators answer closed questions without resorting to tricks?
@RyanM 1. Post a self-answer with that and close all other questions against it. 2. ??? 3. Profit!
Q: "Please give me the codes" A: "Create a void function and use 'if' statement inside it"
@RyanM I hope not. If they can I bring my pitchfork to Meta ...
We did it, all questions are now answered.
@rene At the very least, the big list on MSE suggests they cannot...
08:32
@RyanM glad they can't. It is best to leave the abuse option to us mortals ...
@RyanM quick question to a native speaker, is "polishing turds" a common slang expression in the US? Like, if you heard it from someone at a given moment what would your impression of the speaker and the use be?
@bad_coder not a native speaker, but common enough as a metaphor for wasting effort by trying to improve something which is unsalvageable
@tripleee common like, you hear it every month? In your family, your friend circle, your workplace?
(this would actually be a good post on English usage, if it hasn't been done yet.)
@bad_coder I don't think it comes up that often, but off the cuff I'd be surprised if I didn't use it a few times a year or at least every couple of years
not sure what you are asking, "is this commonly understood" or "is this unsuitable for professional discourse"?
08:45
@tripleee just a broad "first impression" and "commonality" question. Trying to ascertain if it's a "marginally used expression" or a "frequent commonplace" regarding usage in general society.
enough to have a Wikipedia page en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polishing_a_turd (redirects to "Lipstick on a pig")
@tripleee you pretty much nailed it here, if it comes about vaguely 1 or 2 times per semester it really isn't representative.
@tripleee that one isn't cool, "don't teach a pig to sing, it wastes your time and annoys the pig" predates it and is Mark Twain.
@tripleee ok, you're right - this quote investigator actually goes by quote directly.
@tripleee thank you for the insights 👍
@bad_coder sure (-:
09:02
@bad_coder I agree with tripleee entirely, as a native speaker
09:19
@E_net4thecurator Can't you just roll back the edit that's rude?
@cigien The rest of the answer is hardly something worth keeping.
It repeats what another answer is saying.
Plus, this kind of attitude is too inappropriate to be put under the rug.
Seems unnecessary to nuke the post when we could just rollback, and delete the answer, but that's fine.
@cigien Rolling back and casting delete votes sounds like more work for something that's rude and adds nothing to the question.
@JeanneDark It's not a question of more work. Throwing R/A flags at a post is usually easier, but given the penalties that go with it, I don't feel that the user deserves it here. I've left a comment, I'll see if they edit it out.
@cigien That whole post wasn't worth that effort or the time spent discussing it in here.
09:34
@JeanneDark I'm sorry, it was not my intention to waste any of your time.
 
3 hours later…
Are political scented usernames allowed on SO?
Zoe
Zoe
depends on the username
12:56
Related to the above, should I have handled it in a different way? Just asking for advice since user is complaining about me "slapping" him and being very unhelpful...
@kvantour a lot is allowed. see also: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/319809/…
@MrUpsidown well ... just move on a tad sooner is the best advice I can give. I normally don't repeat myself in comments. specially not on main.
Ola
@rene yes that's probably a good idea. I sometimes think I wasn't clear enough when actually the problem is on the other end... Good point.
Why is this question closed? stackoverflow.com/questions/66024681 (non of the close-request-users have any relation to shell or bash)
13:07
I don't see a tag in the FAQ for a very rude/abusive answer that's still here after 20 minutes despite being downvoted many times. I am missing it? Anyway, here is the culprit: stackoverflow.com/a/66027799/2227743
Zoe
Zoe
@EricAya [tag:flag-pls][tag:spam]. Gone now though, Smokey also caught it a while ago
@kvantour I assume the close voters didn't recognize it was a programming problem
@Zoe Ah, "flag-pls", I see. Thank you.
@kvantour reopening so it can be closed as a duplicate seems misdirected, though; I assume there are existing questions which explain both aspects of this
@tripleee I agree. This is why I didn't jump to reopening. I don't know that tag pool, so I don't know where the dupes are.
13:14
@tripleee there are no duplicates, or at least i did not find any. This is a very subtle question. You could convert it to: What does ${var-string} mean? but this would completely cancel out the interaction with BASH_SOURCE
@kvantour maybe this stackoverflow.com/q/39340169/5292302, but yeah I leave reopening and "maybe" close as dupe to @tripleee
13:43
@PetterFriberg yeah, reopened; let's leave it at that (for now?)
Looks like spam, but maybe OP's just being naive by sharing this URL like this? Not sure. Personnaly I think it's spam: stackoverflow.com/q/66028573/2227743
What do you think about this edit?
It's rather obvious that that's what op means (and all the answers can only make sense with that), and that's an old question that op won't see anymore. But there's a policy to not edit code in questions too.
@user202729 No.
There's no such thing.
Is not a white/black thing.
So? Is the edit okay?
By the way, did someone close vote stackoverflow.com/questions/66028851/… then delete the autogenerated comment? It's weird to see no comment but the [1] in the duplicate flag dialog.
(personally I don't see any reason for doing that because there's people don't tend to do close-as-duplicate revenge anyway)
13:58
@user202729 It's not ok? Why it shouldn't be ok?
Just to double check. (stop asking rhetorical questions...)
You already got 2k, you should trust yourself.
If someone is going to complain, they will do so.
Until then, presume that you are doing the right thing.
@user202729 FWIW people who hate duplicates to the bone do exist. We can't have nice things.
@kvantour I still have no idea how it is related to zsh
@bad_coder It's a common expression on Stack Exchange, but less common outside of the site. More common in English vernacular would be "putting lipstick on a pig". See english.stackexchange.com/questions/94871/…
14:43
@TylerH Have you been sneaking into dodgy Glasgow night clubs?
Are there any non-dodgy Glasgow night clubs? Name one.
7
@rene I was going to say a football club but 1. I don't know any Glasgow football teams (and I'm barely aware of most others) 2. I'm not even sure if they don't count as dodgy.
and do they play at night?
Isn't there are curfew everywhere anyways?
@VLAZ I'm not sure if Scottish football hooligans supporters have a sense of humour. I wouldn't risk it ...
Does anyone know how to summon Jon Skeet in a C# Q?
15:36
@oguzismail The notation ${BASH_SOURCE-$0} equals to ${BASH_SOURCE} in all cases unless ran in terminal running bash. So it has no significant meaning. When your file containing the above statement, is sourced from a zsh script, then the $0 comes into play because ZSH does not know BASH_SOURCE and alters the defnition of $0.
In zsh, $0 has the same meaning as $BASH_SOURCE in bash. So the notation ${BASH_SOURCE-$0} is a safe-guard that the script can be sourced from both bash and zsh scripts and will provide the same output. Whether the source in the respected question had this in mind and uses zsh scripts on top, I do not know. But it is likely that the original author of those scripts is mixing bash and zsh and uses this frequently, and as such implemented this out of habbit. Hence the connection with zsh.
@NathanOliver With impatience
@NathanOliver did you try \summon @JonSkeet. If a puff of smoke appears, it worked!
15:51
@kvantour I've heard releasing the packet of smoke that is electronics stops them from working. I think I'll avoid that summoning ;)
16:07
@TylerH I looked into it, about 300 occurrences in chat of the possible variations, and all together 200 on the metas. This actually makes use of the expression uncommon on SE (given the volume of meta and chat). What is strange is folks noticing and quoting it when it's irrelevant (had to be my bad luck, that precisely I had to be accused with such filthy language more than once.)
The first occurrence being by Jeff Atwood and Shog saying it once lends the expression an apparent importance it doesn't have (discounting deleted posts that may have contained it).
@SardarUsama That seems quite focused. OP wants to know how to split a string in Octave. If it's not a duplicate, there's no reason to close that question.
@cigien That's GMTC.
@SardarUsama Correct. That's not a reason to close a question though.
and also the required output syntax is invalid to the mentioned and tagged language
@SardarUsama That's fine. The answer could explain that.
I don't know what focus it needs either. Maybe add a comment to ask for the details that you require to answer it
@bad_coder I don't know exactly what you're referring to but I'm guessing criticism of your use wasn't insinuating "filthy language" so much as "unfriendly". On SO and the rest of the network, we used to regularly refer to low quality posts as "turds", but ever since the Summer of Love and other "Be Nice" initiatives, it's become disallowed to refer to posts in such ways (which is, for example, one of the reasons we don't allow reasons like "useless crap" as a cv-pls reason here).
17:00
@SardarUsama I agree with the prior discussion on this; it's clearly focused enough to answer. Thus, I'm binning it. If you feel the question is closable for another reason, you may re-request it.
@SardarUsama Do note, as has already been mentioned, that a lack of effort (e.g. "GMTC" or "give me the code") is a downvote reason, not a closevote reason, and we specifically do not allow that reason for cv-pls requests here. To that end, we also do not allow requests using another reason as cover for GMTC.
@TylerH Is this meta post (last bullet) no longer valid and obsoleted?
@SardarUsama That meta post is still valid and updated regularly. However, that bullet does not seem to be valid. I'm not sure how that has managed to stay in there; as far as I know we've never required a code attempt for anything that isn't homework. And as a few users might be quick to argue, not everyone considers it a requirement to include a coding attempt even for homework questions.
looks like it was a series of rollbacks that made subtle changes that mostly contributed to that.
I've gone ahead and removed the entire bullet point, since it's purely about non-homework questions, and the Q&A there is specifically about homework questions
@SardarUsama thank you for bringing that to our attention
sta
sta
17:55
need to reopen this question stackoverflow.com/questions/66010425/…
18:41
I just saw the [programming-pearls] tag, and it seems completely useless to me. I don't know if I should post a burninate request, it seems like there's quite a lot of those already, so I wanted to get opinions / advice here. There's only 39 questions, so I believe it is eligible for the abbreviated burnination process. One concern I have is that the tag is more than 10 years old, so maybe it's been grandfathered in for some reason?
@CharlieArmstrong are the questions in that tag off-topic? Please check the 4 criteria: meta.stackexchange.com/a/239191/158100
@rene Most of the questions in that tag seem on-topic, so it fails criterion #2. Does it need to match all the criteria? I guess I'm looking more at criterion #1, because the tag info says "unique problems or solutions that might puzzle a programmer", which describes everything on Stack Overflow. It seems to match the description of a "meta tag".
18:59
@rene Thank you for the clarification. This tag clearly doesn't meet that description, so I won't post a burninate request. Thanks for the help! :)
yw
@Dharman I thought mysqli was a specific function/prefix
apparently it's a whole library of stuff?
Yeah. It is a PHP extension
is there a count(*) in vanilla PHP/MySQL?
@TylerH No. Gotta do a query and parse the result
Although you could do something that affects records and get affected rows from the API
19:08
gotcha. So it should be obvious to PHP users that any question/attempt to use count(*) is going to be using MySQLi
Not necessarily. mysqli is the interface. You could use PDO, or if you're a sadist you could try over ODBC
Most folks prefer PDO for the better interface. There's just a couple of gotchas to be aware of is all
Ah, I see what those questions are now. If you execute count(*) then num_rows will be 1, because it counts the number of records returned
19:27
A couple of days ago, I posted an answer to [this](https://stackoverflow.com/q/65955832/9134576) question. Today, I came across [this](https://meta.stackoverflow.com/a/403535/9134576).

And clearly, this question falls under the category: *if an answerer can answer the question without any code (and would likely sorely miss having MathJax like Stats and Math stacks have) then it's likely not on-topic for SO*

I am curious if the question should be closed?
-_- What is wrong with the links?!
@Letsintegreat That seems on-topic to me
@TylerH The fine manual has an example php.net/manual/en/pdostatement.rowcount.php
@Letsintegreat Formatting doesn't work on multilines
Any formatting except code blocks
@Letsintegreat As a side note, the rules for this room also preclude you from suggesting a cv-pls on a question that you're involved in. You didn't directly ask for the cv-pls, but inroducing the concept to the room is sometimes enough to get action going.
Chat markdown isn't the same as comment markdown which is a subset of post markdown.
@TylerH No. SQL is a language on its own. You need a PHP extension like PDO or mysqli to perform SQL queries from PHP. PDO is the preferred option due to it's simplicity.
19:40
BTW, @TylerH our DharmaN was the one that made short order of that page that for some motive was implying that you could do a rowcount on select :D
* Dharman !
@sta Hi. Make sure to read the FAQ if you haven't done so already. In particular, look at the section on formatting requests: you need to use a specific format, as well as provide a reason for why you want some action to be taken.
Also read the bullet on involvement; while this doesn't seem to apply to your message, it's a common pitfall for new members.
20:35
@AdrianMole Are you sure that's spam? Affiliation is disclosed, and the link seems relevant to the question.
@cigien Yeah. The post serves only to advertise the "free trial" version ... and the affiliation is only vaguely disclosed.
@cigien Disclosure isn't enough to save you from spam.
@AdrianMole The disclosure seems to be quite clear. I didn't think of the "free trial" aspect, that's reasonable. On the whole, I'm on the fence about it.
@Braiam Sure. Can you see this specific post? I'm aware of the general guidelines on what constitutes spam, if that's what you're addressing.
20:41
@cigien JFF♦ Seems to have deleted it but not imposes the spam penalty or nuked the user.
Seems like spam, but I think Charcoal is the better place to discuss.
FWIW, I came across it in FP review. I was wavering between Spam and NAA ... but went with Spam after checking the link.
@AdrianMole Yeah, I think that's the right call. If the user repeats this, then nuking would be appropriate, but for just this answer (if it's their only such post), I wouldn't nuke them.
It was their first post. "Member since today" tends to push me towards spam, in those situations.
@cigien Well, if you know, then why saying that it discloses affiliation?
20:51
@Braiam Just in case Adrian missed the affiliation, and flagged it because of that.
@cigien I really dislike that they mixed affiliation with spam. Before spam was "this exist solely to advertise a service or product"
@Braiam Oh, I didn't know that was a change. I assumed the "affiliation" part was always included. Could I rely on your generosity to find and share the MSO (probably MSE) link about the change? :)
But, in this case, the fact that the 'answer' started with, "We are developing..." does not provide full disclosure, IMHO. Who does "we" mean? An amateur community? A commercial organization?
... all we had to go on was a pronoun and an (albeit rare) username.
21:07
Does it actually matter if it's an amateur community, or commercial organization, or something else? So long as the user is affiliated, they must disclose, and they did that. I'm not sure they need to provide additional details of the kind you're referring to.
@AdrianMole Did you just assume their pronoun?
@TylerH Oui.
2
@AdrianMole That's a clever pun :)
21:29
@TylerH this is interesting, I hadn't read so far back into SO history. I knew about the "summer of love", but I'm just realizing how much stuff must have been edited out to sanitize things.
@bad_coder most posts weren't edited, unless they were FAQ posts on Meta or something
it was just a decision to stop using such lingo henceforth
Only a few changes have happened to all posts based on decisions... changing all links from http to https for example, or adjusting posts for system-wide Markdown changes, etc.
and that's typically done by the Community user
since it's an automated process
it'd be faster and silent if they did it as a database update, but the silent part there is a double-edged sword: if there were issues with any specific posts it would be difficult to track and find them, and impossible to "roll back" to a working version that way, at least from the UI
@TylerH the decision was efficient in producing results (I suppose the bulk of occurrences was in comments, and those are ephemeral - they also don't show up in searches.)
@TylerH good call from the company, my personal favorite, having some rules about friendliness makes for a civil house.
@TylerH thanks for explaining that and putting things into the broader context for me.
@cigien At first it only said spam, I can't find where the text was added
np. I'm sure I missed some aspects or maybe even misremembered it... if so Makyen or Cody can probably easily correct me on what actually happened...
@Braiam It's not clear to me that this usage of "Spam" only means "promotes service/product", and doesn't include affiliation. It's also not clear what Jeff meant, since they link to a Wikipedia page, that itself has been edited multiple times over the last decade. Thanks for the links though; I'll see if I can find something that talks about the text in the spam flag option being changed.
22:02
@cigien Advantage of wikipedia, you can see exactly what version he saw when he linked that page
@Braiam Ah, good point :) And there doesn't seem to be any mention of "affiliation" there.
Like revision history is a good thing or something
crazy concept :-D
22:19
@cigien You may be interested in the discussion here. Jeff kind of expects us to know what spam means rather than setting it in stone, but in that question you see exactly what he considers spam: "so they can link to their product"
The core of the definition has always been the apparent motive of the post.
22:30
Nice of you guys to argue my case for me. Who won?
Does this answer look NAA to anyone? I cannot tell what it is trying to say. stackoverflow.com/a/66036411/12708583
No idea. It looks like gibberish
I initially thought it was an audit in First Posts, so I flagged it as NAA, but with no result.
It seems to be narrating their experience with web developing
dbc
dbc
@10Repsaysgetvaccinated The question is, How can I use the Wordpress Search functionality to search an external site?. To summarize the answer, it is saying Here's how I added a search bar to some HTML page I created manually.
22:45
It's not even HTML
So it's completely off-topic from the question.
They seem to have been "inspired by this post" as well
I'd give it a benefit of a doubt if it showed some valid code instead of this pseudo-HTML
dbc
dbc
It's quite deletable for sure.
@10Repsaysgetvaccinated and yet two upvotes...
I looked at the question a few times to see if I was maybe hallucinating...
23:49
@HovercraftFullOfEels umm... what am I missing that makes it deletion worthy?

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