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12:10 AM
 
 
2 hours later…
2:20 AM
Is this question a good fit? Author posted a self-answer indicating it's a Chrome issue and fixed in the Dev version; does it qualify to be closed as "a problem that can no longer be reproduced" or should we wait for that release to make its way into stable first?
 
2:30 AM
@gparyani Wouldn't it still be reproducible in older versions of the software? Perhaps the question could be edited to name specific software versions.
At the very least, certainly something that's not fixed for users of the current stable version of the software does not qualify as non-reproducible.
 
 
1 hour later…
3:57 AM
How much do we appreciate this accepted self-answer? stackoverflow.com/a/40183493/2943403
 
4:36 AM
This will be eaten by the Roomba in a week or so ... but is it abusive and worthy of a red flag?
 
 
2 hours later…
@user16217248 please read socvr.org/faq#GEfM-no-oneboxes
 
7:42 AM
@user16217248 No onebox please.
> Picture frames are a great way to display your favorite family photos and memories.
I can't remember the last time I've even seen a physical photo at my place or my parent's place
I exclude passport photos I've needed for a document. Those aren't usually framed.
 
8:36 AM
@VLAZ My parents have lots of physical photos, but I am too lazy to get them new ones, so I just gave them a digital photo frame (okay, a Google Nest Hub, but a large part of the point was the photo frame) which I set up to display a photo album that I can add to remotely.
 
8:55 AM
does anyone have a good canonical for this: Lazy loading a module from compiled library in Angular 7?
 
9:11 AM
@RyanM My grandma has photos on her shelves. But my parents embraced technology when they found Facebook around 2010 or so. They still keep the old albums with photos somewhere. I'm sure if I ask them they wouldn't be able to pinpoint them immediately but after some searching they'll find the photos from me being a child. But they don't really deal with physical photos for over a decade.
At most,, my mom occasionally prints photos to bring to my grandmother.
 
 
3 hours later…
11:54 AM
 
Morning
 
12:32 PM
@user16217248 The alternative would be VLQ flags on the question. Which are highly likely to get declined. So... Close flags are your best bet
 
Isn't the very purpose of this chat to prevent close flags from ageing away?
 
it is
 
I'm not sure what it's trying to say ... close votes do nothing if the post is not going to be closed, but that's not what they claim
 
12:59 PM
Yeah, I just wanted to head off the interpretation that "close flags do nothing" was in some way true. Any close vote or flag can age away. That doesn't make them useless
 
1:31 PM
 
1:42 PM
@blackgreen I don't know Angular but maybe this one? stackoverflow.com/questions/40293240/…
 
2:11 PM
ugh, starting to see Windows 11 machines at my workplace T_T
was hoping we would skip it and wait til 12 comes out with a usable start menu/task bar
 
@TylerH One tip at least is there is an option to make the taskbar left align just like... every other Windows in existence. Marginally more palatable
 
@Machavity If I had my way we would just install Start11 on every PC
well, I'd probably use the open source tool that does the same thing but our company is anti open-source for liability reasons
@tripleee Give me a second, I think this might be salvageable
OK, see now. Should it still be deleted?
 
2:31 PM
and tags are being burninated: Open Qs - Close Queue - Meta CW
5
 
@Machavity Ok, here's a question, if a moderator was reviewing VLQ flags, and found that I'd flagged a question that should have been Spam or R/A flagged as VLQ, would they decline it?
 
@user16217248 Yep. We've even written our own mod message as to why failing to red-flag that content is not appropriate
 
@Machavity Would you also decline an NAA/VLQ flag on a spam/R/A answer?
 
@JeanneDark I guess the catch is that we don't want slower flags used when it's obvious that it needs to be removed ASAP. If there's a reasonable dispute on if it's red-flag or merely NAA, we'll just remove the post, which marks all of it helpful
That kind of flagging happens a lot on SD reports
 
@Machavity I thought the weaker flags would always be marked helpful. For sure, a slower flag is still much better than no flag.
 
3:25 PM
If I flagged this as VLQ, would moderators decline it, or would that question be an appropriate use case for VLQ flags?
 
The key is we don't want folks close voting or NAA-ing obvious spam and such
 
The message then is that if you are not sure, better do not flag because the flag type might be too weak and get declined even though the content you flagged was problematic and it was helpful that you brought it to the mods' attention.
 
@user16217248 this makes little sense; it is syllogistic reasoning
 
better to get a declined flag than not raise awareness of something that needs to be raised
 
Until you get banned from flagging
 
3:31 PM
if you get banned from flagging it's because you abused flagging
 
I can't believe that you have ever been banned from flagging. :)
 
a few declined flags won't get you there
 
It's like a percentage of recent flags that were declined.
 
@KevinB Punishing users for raising such flags is absurd
 
I had some warnings, once or twice, in my early days, about my flags being unhelpful.
 
3:32 PM
it isn't punishment
a flag is either helpful or it isn't
 
Participating on SO - especially in curation activities - is punishment enough.
@KevinB Meh
 
@KevinB A declined flag means that you abused flagging, which in such cases it clearly isn't
 
it means a moderator disagreed with your opinion
 
I've had (sensibly) declined flags ... but I don't think I was ever abusing the flag system.
 
or, ou misused a flag for a purpose it wasn't intended for
neither is a punishment
 
3:36 PM
Most of my declined flags are incorrect flag types. Still flaggable, but wrong flag. For example, VLQ flags on questions that should have been close flagged. Or spam flags on questions that maybe should have been VLQ or close flagged.
 
being told you are wrong is not a punishment
 
Or mod flags declined because it "could be handled by the community", or NAA flags declined because "that one needs a mod flag".
@KevinB I think you're wrong.
 
@user16217248 That would be declined as VLQ. You can alternatively flag it as needing closure, which sends it to the close queue. Remember, SO gets a lot of flags, and mods don't need to pay attention to mere closure since the community can handle that
 
Even though there's zero recognizable question whatsoever?
 
I'm still not sure whether or not I should raise my first (and only) declined R/A flag as an issue. It was a long time ago, I was new, but what I saw (in SE review) was most certainly rude.
 
3:40 PM
@user16217248 VLQ flags on a question means you want a moderator to close it. They're not reviewed by the community at large so it may be much slower than the CV queue or even this room
 
@user16217248 yes, because it's not something that warrants moderator attention. Us normal users can just close it as "Needs details" and be done with it
 
@KevinB So flagging spam as VLQ: Declining the flag either means that a moderator disagreed with you or you misused the flag for a purpose it was not intended for? Both make no sense as that flag brings problematic content that should be deleted to the attention of mods and the community.
 
i don't think there's a reason for VLQ to exist as a flag on SO
 
... oops, it was LA review.
 
@KevinB Well, but it does.
 
3:42 PM
sure
a flag existing doesn't mean it should be used
 
Ironically there were 2 VLQ flags on that specific question, both of which were handled when a mod closed it. The catch there is there was a declined spam flag. Red flags get top priority on mod attention
 
@Machavity "This question has severe formatting or content problems. This question is unlikely to be salvageable through editing, and might need to be removed."
 
@JeanneDark Yeah, I agree it's confusing and we've been vocal in asking for it to be changed, but the VLQ process works fine on smaller sites with less flags
 
Would anyone here not raise an R/A flag on this post (deleted by a mod around the same time I flagged it)? Sure, I could have edited-out the offensive bit, but that doesn't make it any less worthy of a red-flag, IMHO.
 
One of those rare places where SO loses out because it's how the rest of network runs
 
3:46 PM
hmm.. i don't see anything offensive in that answer, it's just a formatless copy paste of the previous answer
 
@Machavity I understand declining VLQ flags on questions that should be closed. And, of course, declining too strong flags (e. g. spam flag on an NAA), but declining weaker flags that still have the desired effect is, in my opinion, detrimental as it may lead to people stop bringing that content to (y)our attention. I thought it'd make more sense to mark the flag helpful and write a mod message that a more appropriate flag should be used.
 
@KevinB Are you talking to me? If so, then look at how the answerer deliberately changed the name of the OP into something quite obviously (IMO) offensive.
 
I would probably custom flag it for exactly the reason that it's sort of subtle and requires seeing the context.
(upon seeing the context, as a mod, I would then R/A nuke it)
 
^
 
@KevinB It's R/A. The chowdray -> CowDairy and that it is a copy pasta of the other answer.
 
3:49 PM
One of my declined VLQ flags carried the message: "Only flag as "very low quality" when a question should be immediately deleted. To indicate that it's low quality, downvote it. If it should be closed, raise a "needs improvement" flag or close vote." So according to them VLQ is like a 'delete' flag?
 
@RyanM Not so subtle that the account was deleted very quickly after my flag was declined.
 
@AdrianMole different mod, and for different reasons, actually.
 
@RyanM But, still ...
I didn't really 'know about' custom mod flags, back then. I saw it in review; I knew it was intended to be offensive, so I flagged it as such. Was I really wrong to do so?
 
i don't fault you for that, but also don't fault the mod for not seeing it (given i didn't)
 
@AdrianMole I think your flag should be changed to 'Disputed' then, because I have seen copypastas generally treated as R/A
 
3:51 PM
@user16217248 That's what it says. But the change of the UI ("Needs improvement") confused many people and they used the VLQ flagged when they wanted the question closed. I've seen about a gazillion complaints about such declined VLQ flags on MSO.
 
i did see the @ and thought it was a bit weird, but couldnt immediately rule out that the op had changed their name since then given the age of the post
 
How can you miss that mis-representation of the username? If so, then why are you moderating SO?
 
wolda probably been a bit more obvious at the time of posting
 
... really!
 
But is is like "needs improvement" = "should be closed" and "very low quality" = "should be deleted?"
 
3:53 PM
@AdrianMole Your flag was correct, but the moderator handling it missed the context. The mod UI isn't helping here, since the post is shown in isolation.
(I've changed the handling to disputed)
@KevinB for the record, I checked and they did not
 
i'd have to use wayback machine, and yea no
;)
 
@user16217248 Yes, you find the close reasons under "Needs improvement". That mods would interpret a VLQ flag always as a flag for closure is new to me. That's why I quoted the VLQ flag description above: "This question has severe formatting or content problems. This question is unlikely to be salvageable through editing, and might need to be removed." (it's basically the same as the one for answers)
 
Fortunately mod tooling is a bit more efficient at checking that than Wayback Machine (-:
 
@AdrianMole Yeah, that makes more sense. I would have missed why it was red flagged myself
 
@user16217248 The moderator team is generally of the opinion that the VLQ flag should be removed entirely from questions, as it primarily serves to confuse people who should be raising "Needs improvement" flags (which send the post into the Close vote review queue, which VLQ does not).
 
4:01 PM
i think close "flags" should just be called close votes and displayed in the same place close votes are. There's no real value in differentiating between the two to the user using it, it just results in confusion because they're lumped in with all the other flags
similarly, if i don't get a +1 to my helpful flag count for casting a close vote, neither should close flags?
 
@Machavity For context: I am (and was, then) 'robust' enough not to let it bother me. But a lot of newer users would be put off by such a declined flag. Today, I would raise a custom flag on that, for sure (explaining the context) but I think the onus is on handling mods to look more deeply into any red flag ... the argument that "we're just too busy" doesn't really wash, in such cases.
 
(Or maybe an optional text box for R/A flags?)
 
I wonder if it would be better to rename close/reopen flags to "non-binding votes"
or, that's not really the right term
"unweighted votes" or something
 
They're not votes.
 
4:07 PM
sure they are
 
They're flags.
 
they just don't carry any weight in the decision
 
@AdrianMole FWIW, the first part appears at a glance to be a typo. As a mod you see... a lot of unfortunate typos. Bolted onto what appears to be a legit attempt at an answer makes it even easier to overlook
Having seen why the user was deleted, it's a lot more obvious there was trolling there
 
it's easy to look at that answer and see the first issue, overlooking the second
 
Maybe I'm just more aware of how offensive the use of references to "cows" are to those of Hindu persuasion (as the surname, "Chowdary" strongly suggests is the case, here).
 
4:13 PM
they are flags now, but their purpose is the same as close votes, as opposed to regular flags that have a purpose of reaching moderators
 
You would, unfortunately, be surprised how many just...seemingly random...red flags people raise.
 
I think a clear delineation there in terms of what the purpose of flagging is is important, and we don't have that right now
 
If I saw your name, I'd certainly look a lot more closely because I know you know what you're doing.
 
@KevinB that's not strictly true. There are a few other flags that get handled by user queues, not mod queues.
 
i'd prefer they go away as well, but that's yet another, ;)
 
4:14 PM
@NathanOliver nit: user queues and mod queues; I don't believe there is any other flag type that is only handled by user queues.
 
there's certainly a lot of flags that should just be downvotes
 
(assuming you're referring to NAA/VLQ)
 
@RyanM that and I though triage also got Q's which were flagged.
 
My vague recollection (don't quote me on this) is that VLQ-flagged questions go to triage (but they also definitely go to mods)
 
@RyanM what's unfortunate is that I probably would not be surprised at how many red flags people raise for random non-issues
 
4:20 PM
Sometimes I understand the invalid reason (R/A for trying to cheat on homework or whatever) but other times I'm just...confused.
several times I've figured out like ten seconds after declining the flag that the user was trying to report sockpuppetry being used to repost questions
 
Just to be clear, here: I'm not trying to bash the mods; y'all do a great job in difficult circumstances. I just think it would be nicer if minor flagging mistakes by newer curators were handled in a more useful/helpful way than just "declined".
 
(sadly, our crystal balls lag a little sometimes...)
@AdrianMole for the record, I think we all agree that the post was definitely offensive and that your flag was valid, and should have been marked helpful and the post nuked.
@AdrianMole I wouldn't call it a mistake by the curator; it was an error on the mod team's part. My suggestion to use a custom flag is a suggestion to decrease the likelihood of the mod team making that mistake.
 
No problem. And thanks for adjusting the verdict.
 
@AdrianMole The main issue is that except in certain cases, mods can't dispute flags, they just have accept or decline. Too bad SO is more worried about showing user unrelated questions then giving the mod tooling some love
 
We hate "love" (mis-quoting Catija).
 
4:25 PM
sorry about the pings
 
Ping away ... I can always raise a mod flag if your pings become troublesome. :)
 
Without seeing the OP's name, "Mitten CowDairy" is a plausible username that someone might have, and not clearly offensive. After seeing the OP's name, it's definitely offensive, and the fact that the post is a copy-paste of the other answer (which I also didn't notice due to the lack of formatting making them look really different) also makes the post unfixably offensive.
 
Custom flag would be much better, though.
 
if VLQ/NAA flags just resulted in a downvote being cast and roomba was expanded to delete downvoted answers after n days, entire review queues would be rendered irrelevant
 
4:27 PM
If I knew then what I know now, then I wouldn't have been then what I was then.
 
@KevinB ehhhhhhhh. I agree with the sentiment that a lot of answer flags should be downvotes, but roomba deleting downvoted answers seems not great (although maybe like...-3 with no upvotes could work?).
 
yeah, i mean significantly downvoted, not just 1 like we do for questions
 
I think one thing that would help would be if NAA flags could delete answers
 
answers hold a little more value, even when wrong
 
four unresolved NAA flags from 2k+ users -> post deleted
 
4:30 PM
@RyanM That opens up a potentially HUGE abuse vector.
 
@AdrianMole you can sort of do this with red flags now
Also I'm not sure it's worse than the abuse vector from bad LQA reviewing
I'm not aware of anyone having done it with red flags, but you could
 
i mean, i'd be fine with an additional abuse vector opening if it means we now have several review queue's worth of free volunteer reviewing time to leverage elsewhere
 
Yeah, but malicious red flags are (I would like to think) quite easy to spot. Would that be the same for all those NAA flags on (e.g.) code-only answers. You want to give 2k users delete privileges?
 
@AdrianMole It's...harder to spot than you'd wish it were. We do have ways and there's a good chance we'd notice, but it's a pretty manual process. "Quite easy" unfortunately overstates the quality of the tooling there.
 
i wonder what the avg account age is for an active 2k user today
 
4:34 PM
@AdrianMole 2K users already have delete privileges via the LQA queue, all they need is one invalid flag, or a short answer from a new user.
 
I see so many wrongly NAA-flagged posts in LQA review. At least, because it's in review, I get a chance to say, "Looks OK". If you just had 4 (or whatever) flags doing the dirty deed, then a post could get deleted by actions of users, all of whom are without even CV privileges.
It's the "review" part that's important, IMO.
 
For what it's worth, I don't think I've ever seen more than 2 invalid NAA flags live simultaneously on a post.
The vast, vast majority are 1 invalid flag.
 
@RyanM Meh - You're new to the di'mond stuffs.
 
I've certainly seen a large number of declined ones. Makyen has a comment somewhere telling people to stop flagging a particular wrong answer as NAA. :-)
> To anyone thinking of flagging this as NAA or VLQ: This appears to be an attempt to answer. Thus, moderators will decline NAA and VLQ flags raised on this answer (there are already 12 declined flags here (now 14 declined NAA flags)). Moderators do not make judgments about technical accuracy (unless they happen to be a subject matter expert (SME) for the technologies used, but then they're acting more as 20k+ users than moderators). Users who are SMEs in anaconda environments and who have >20k reputation can vote to delete it, if they feel it should be deleted.
(it was, eventually, deleted by three 20k+ users)
 
Seems quite terse for one of Makyen's comments. ;-P
 
4:39 PM
A whole 32 characters left.
Final declined flag count was 19.
 
@RyanM It's a way of downvoting a post when you don't have enough rep for the privilege. It's possibly retaliation (I'm sure one of my answers was once red flagged to punish me for a downvote. What was best about it: I hadn't downvoted their non-English answer.)
 
4:54 PM
@JeanneDark absolutely unrelatedly, you also were once flagged by someone concerned (in good faith, I think) about the volume of your votes ^^;
(the flag was declined)
 
@RyanM I really regret having cast those 7 upvotes :(
 
hahaha
 
5:31 PM
@RyanM lets hope the anaconda bit is a variable :-)
 
Would be funny if it were all anaconda answers with this problem.
@GeneralGrievance I ... how does that ... you don't code with a mouse
 
I was gonna comment something to that effect, but I thought better of it.
 
unrelatedly I could use recommendations for a floor mat for coding
 
Though, I guess if you were "coding" in one of those sandbox games with logic gates, maybe.
 
Missed opportunity: should have trolled the hardware recs people and sent it there.
 
5:37 PM
@RyanM you guys don't code with mice?!
no wonder you're all so productive...
@RyanM honestly I bought a $10 one at Walmart a few years ago and it is still holding up nicely
just went to their kitchen area and stood on a few
 
I guess you could get one of these things and have a bunch of macros.
 
@RyanM Get a DDR machine?
 
@TylerH you know it had honestly never occurred to me that one could simply try floor mats in a store.
I clearly do too much of my shopping online.
 
the benefit of brick & mortar
 
though my recollection of having a floor mat at work was that the main issue was that it would get in the way of the chair when I wanted to sit, so there was some amount of moving it around involved.
 
5:46 PM
I'm not trying to be intentionally dense, but how are you using this floor mat? Just to roll your chair around on?
 
When I'd initially asked, that was the type of floor mat I was thinking of, actually. But Tyler's response clearly related to the type you stand on to relieve strain.
 
Wow, those socks are extremely yellow.
 
wow, TIL that exists. Although I'm not sure that it's clearly better than just having both mats on top of each other
 
I imagine the biggest issue with that is it is too close to where the chair wheels are and so many chairs will have their wheels run into it, preventing you from getting as close as you want to the desk at times
@JeanneDark I would rather delete the answer separately honestly
(since it is not an answer)
 
yes, but the question doesn't strike me as worth keeping either
 
probably not, though an edit could still save it if OP returned
 
"Last seen more than 11 years ago"
 
I did say if :-)
nothing can save that answer though. I flagged it as NAA just in case
 
6:18 PM
Is there a place to see moderators from before the first election?
 
@user16217248 VLQ flags on questions push the question into the Triage queue where other users are asked to figure out and perform the correct action. Raising a VLQ flag on a question is just passing the buck to other users to do what you could have already done (edit, raise a more accurate flag, or close-vote). The better thing to do is to just perform the correct action off the bat and get the question seen in the correct queue without needing to have 3 additional people in Triage look at it to figure out what to do. While there can be times when you don't know what's correct, those times should diminish over time as the user learns what the correct action is. A substantial part of declining such flags is to let the user know that there's a better course of action, which it's preferred that they follow.
 
@Makyen "This question has severe formatting or content problems. This question is unlikely to be salvageable through editing, and might need to be removed." Does not indicate that editing or close voting/flagging is appropriate, but that the question likely needs to be deleted. It's also counter-intuitive for users that there is a flag they can but should not use. VLQ on questions is like a weaker R/A flag and I find it strange that, e. g., a VLQ flag on gibberish would be declined.
 
@TylerH stackoverflow.com/help/badges/3109/sheriff ought to be a more-or-less complete list of all moderators who still have accounts.
minus any who served less than a year, of course, but...has that happened?
@JeanneDark I don't think VLQ on gibberish would be declined. I've never heard of that.
There's some disagreement between mods over where exactly to draw the line when handling VLQ flags, but I think all of us set it somewhere north of "gibberish"
"It's also counter-intuitive for users that there is a flag they can but should not use." Completely agree; it really should be removed entirely from questions.
or...not sent to moderators, or something. But probably removed - there's no reason to have a "kick the can down the road" flag.
 
@TylerH Good question. I don't think any such list exists. As best as I can tell, the first flag was handled by Marc Gravell in 2009
 
@RyanM It's based on this statement by Macha: "I guess the catch is that we don't want slower flags used when it's obvious that it needs to be removed ASAP." Since gibberish is R/A, VLQ consequently would be declined, no?
 
6:30 PM
Ah... well, I would mark all flags on a gibberish answer helpful.
@Machavity would you not?
 
@RyanM I mean a gibberish question
 
Same thinking on my part - all flags helpful (unless it's idk, some totally wrong custom flag)
 
@RyanM The badge page is a good idea. I'm not sure who all would be an appointed moderator, tho
 
(partly because it's not clear from the description that gibberish is R/A - some people think it's just for offensive stuff, which is a fair reading but not the one we subscribe to)
 
It was always my understanding that weaker flags would be marked helpful, too
 
6:32 PM
@Machavity I think you meant to reply to a different message
 
@RyanM Ah. Yeah, missed the context. I can and do.
 
@TylerH sorry, I was away ... I guess the edit was an improvement, but still only turned it into a duplicate with mediocre answers, so no big loss
 
@JeanneDark Yes, I saw you quote that near the message I replied to. Based on you repeating this, you seem to be stuck interpreting that text incorrectly, like many people do. Yes, it's confusing. No, it doesn't make it clear that we primarily close unclear questions and allow them to be deleted by the Roomba, or, hopefully/potentially, edited by the OP. No, the VLQ flag doesn't take into account that the community has defined a large percentage of the sort of thing for which VLQ could have been appropriate as R/A (e.g. a question like "oasudhfoiashdfpohadf aoidsjf aoisjf osaijdf oisadjfsaoi"). But, VLQ is not appropriate for "please close this", which is largely how it's used by many/most people.
That flag text means that VLQ should be used on things which should just be straight-up deleted, without bothering to close them and, potentially, allowing the OP to edit, but which are not bad enough for an R/A flag. But, that's not how people primarily use it. People primarily use it as "I don't like this question".
The thing is, we can deal with nearly every question on which it might be appropriate to raise a VLQ flag by either closing it, downvoting, and letting the Roomba delete it, or by raising other, more appropriate, flags.
Since you keep quoting this, what sort of question content do you feel VLQ is appropriate for and why does another route of handling not apply (and allow the community to handle it without moderator intervention or which gets it handled faster, i.e. R/A)?
 
7:20 PM
@Machavity @RyanM Thanks, good idea. I was trying to find Jonathan Sampson and was confused for a minute when he wasn't on the list, then I realized he was appointed before the first election
@tripleee Thanks, and no worries--just wanted to make sure it wasn't deleted unnecessarily. I agree it's almost certainly a duplicate as well
 
7:52 PM
And as usual I post a unique question on a niche tag and it gets downvoted within 30 minutes before any of the SMEs get a chance to look at it. Because yeah, none of the users who ever answered a question on the tag voted today...
 
@bad_coder Frustrating I'm sure, but you've got a lot of rep to spare, start a bounty tomorrow?
 
@IanCampbell at 3Qs/month with a 50% answer rate it's unlikely to help. It'll roomba before an SME finds the time to think about it.
 
You've got 36 days left. =P
 
@IanCampbell maybe it's better to boycott SO altogether and have someone else waste their time curating - with 10 reviewers in the CV queue seems like that's a consensus that has been reached.
 
8:23 PM
@bad_coder well, to be fair you also have two other tags on there that have about 1k watchers between them
that's not including the untold number of users who would have seen it pop up on the /questions page
Regarding your question, I believe the default font in PlantUML is your system font
 
8:45 PM
@TylerH see also forum.plantuml.net/6114/default-font-used cc @bad_coder
 
9:08 PM
@Makyen There seems to be a misunderstanding. I'm not referring to VLQ flags on questions that should be closed and have no problem with such flags being declined (although the problem is rather the UI, not the flaggers). To provide some context, I'm talking about this statement, also quoted above: "I guess the catch is that we don't want slower flags used when it's obvious that it needs to be removed ASAP."
This was about declining VLQ flags on questions that were spam or R/A, because these other flags were preferable. It was always my understanding that "weaker" flags would be marked helpful (after all they are as they drive attention to problematic content and indicate it needs to be deleted), I remember discussions about this back when there was a squirrel in here regularly.
To me, the VLQ flag for questions has no real use, except as a weaker R/A flag when you feel the OP doesn't deserve the penalty. But I I've very, very rarely seen questions for which that made sense. But the VLQ flag is there, it has that description (almost identical to VLQ for answers) indicating delete-worthy content, and I don't see why a VLQ flag on a question for which R/A might be more appropriate, should be declined.
 
@JeanneDark My last group of comments may have come off a bit too strong. I'm sorry about that. I'm ... a bit frustrated by other things at the moment, which impacted the tone I used. That I was already frustrated by other things resulted in me being extra frustrated by, from my point of view, a repeat of something that you'd already just said, as I was reading through that area of the transcript just prior to my response before that to which you were replying.
(ninja'd by you already responding)
@JeanneDark There's some overall confusion about the situation. Let me correct that.
 
@Makyen No problem. I quoted that again in response to your "(edit, raise a more accurate flag, or close-vote)" because these points are applicable to VLQ flags instead of flags for closure. I've seen many complaints from flaggers who used VLQ flags to indicate a question should be closed because they couldn't find the flags for closure. But my point is that the actual description indicates not closure, but deletion of the content.
 
@user16217248 Your statement here is inaccurate. You raised a spam flag, which was declined, because it's not actually spam. It might have been intended as spam, but there's not enough there, even in the Markdown, for us to say it's actually spam. There were 2 VLQ flags raised on that question, which were marked helpful when a moderator closed the question. The question was later deleted by a moderator. So, there was no VLQ flag declined there.
 
9:24 PM
What sparked the argument was this chat message and the reply (and this). Also a chat message about VLQ indicating a question should be closed (it doesn't).
 
9:34 PM
how does it even have access
 
The SG dev team reached out to the Charcoal team before beta 1.
 
@JeanneDark While there are times when a moderator might decline a VLQ flag on spam, I'd expect that it would have to be fairly clearly spam. Such a decline would likely be intended to get across to the user that they should recognize something that blatant as spam and flag it as such. I would be fairly surprised to see a VLQ flag declined on spam unless the moderator was trying to communicate something.
Frankly, a substantial number of spam posts get deleted/nuked without the moderator seeing what flags are on the post, as that can be done without viewing the question page, so any VLQ flags would get marked "helpful" just by being there.
As to the last chat message you linked, I suspect that's a mis-statement, as a VLQ flag means "this should be deleted", not closed. VLQ very specifically doesn't mean "this should be closed". The problem is that lots of people use it that way. The significant majority of VLQ flags on questions which make it to moderators are actually being used as "this should be closed" flags, which may be where some of the confusion is.
 
@IanCampbell wow
weird to see that level of outreach these days
 
I hope they aren't listening, but I've been very impressed with the level of professionalism of the SG dev team.
 
Yes, that ^.
@TylerH As mentioned, the SG dev team reached out to Charcoal well prior to beta 1. After asking what we needed in order to be able to have SD work with SG, they made changes to the SE API to make it possible, releasing a new version of the SE API, v2.4, which can, optionally, include SG posts.
SD was changed. Some issues with the SE API were found after a while. SE made some changes. We made some changes. Things are mostly working, but probably left this issue, which has been affecting us since about the time the SG changes were made, but has been difficult to track down as to what the issue really was.
 
9:44 PM
@Makyen And the problem I see with that is (1) the user gets penalized for a helpful action to improve the site (the flag did bring attention to the post), (2) the flag was correct as spam and R/A are also VLQ, just not the best option, (3) user may in the future (unless they are flag-banned) use the correct flag but they may also decide to stop flagging at all because (4) no one is obliged to spend their time helping curate SO.
 
@JeanneDark If the post is obviously R/A or spam, then VLQ is very substantially inferior. It's reasonable, IMO, to communicate to the user that there are much better ways to handle it that end up with the question gone substantially faster. If the only flag that's raised is a VLQ flag, then it's quite likely the post is going to be around for a lot longer than if a spam or R/A flag is raised.
 
It's going to be around for even longer if no flag is raised.
 
I would, generally, favor messaging a user about that, similar to our "closing spam" template.
(also, PSA that none of you need: don't vote to close spam. Even if you also flag it. Because then other people do it too and they don't flag it. Also if it gets closed it might get deleted without red flag penalties.)
 
Unless there's a pattern, a mod message seems like substantially too strong a step to just communicate that a single VLQ flag would have been better as spam or R/A.
 
I mean, realistically I'd probably just nuke the post without looking too hard at what the flags on it were.
 
9:54 PM
It says right on the box "to address serious behavior problems" =P
 
But I also don't think I'd decline a VLQ flag on spam even if I did see it (especially because a lot of spam is VLQ)
 
10:21 PM
@Makyen I raised a spam flag there, but I was referring to a VLQ flag on a different question.
 
10:33 PM
@TylerH thanks, in the end I'm also not enough of an Angular expert to tell, so I ended up addressing the root cause of my request
 

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