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00:07
@CertainPerformance not that there's a strong policy consensus but personally I don't like deleting dupes just because it's a FAQ - if anything, keeping dupes around should help boost the canonical's visibility (assuming the Internet works the way I understand it to). However, that one in particular I definitely cast a delete vote, mainly because the title is awful; OP is seeking help with a task, not a problem.
00:22
@KarlKnechtel Keeping dupes around encourages the fragmentation of knowledge on the topic. Sometimes this is good, like if the post is approaching the problem from a novel perspective or unique search term or something of the sort. But IMO a dupe that's a FAQ for which there are already plenty of posts on isn't adding anything to the site, if the canonical is trivial to find - it's just an extra search result to skip past.
OP is seeking help with a task, not a problem. - I like the idea of having a post for every problem (and a few variations as is useful), not a post for every OP with a problem.
 
1 hour later…
01:55
Screencap of the day complete with holiday lights.
@DanielWiddis *chef's kiss
The font's not even monospace!
02:11
@starball please keep in mind, we do not moderate users here. FAQ socvr.org/faq#GEfM-moderate-content-NOT-other and mainly socvr.org/faq#GEfM-dont-moderate-users
@Vickel Got it. Thanks for the links. Will keep that in mind and won't do it again in the future. Sorry for breaking a room rule!
@starball you could ping the last active RO and ask to bin those posts...
@Machavity can you please bin chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/55772501#55772501 and my two following messages? I broke a room rule.
Delete or convert to comment under question? stackoverflow.com/a/74988394/2943403
@mickmackusa I removed it. That user's not been seen in some time, I don't think the comment is going to garner the response they're hoping for.
02:21
Comments (that deserve to stay) are ones that provide some insight on the issue at hand, right? If it's just a question in the answer box, probably isn't worth keeping around
@starball → 3 messages moved to SOCVR /dev/null (by request)
 
2 hours later…
04:13
For a question that is along the lines of "How do I do X in Foo?", is an answer that says, "Foo is rubbish, use Bar." actually an answer?
04:55
@AdrianMole Not if it's actually that short. It's possible for them to have provided an answer of how to do it in Bar, particularly if they say it's not possible in Foo, it that it's substantially more complicated. Assuming, that is, that they are not promoting their own library/project/whatever, or at least not doing so more than a couple of times on things where it clearly does help and isn't just an excuse to promote.
It was that short (just wasn't about Foo and Bar). Can't find it, now; I skipped in LQA but it has likely been deleted by other reviewers.
@AdrianMole Surely you are familiar with the blatant, ongoing misuse of custom close reasons? By that standard, this one is rather benign. But, I agree, still confusing. If the 3k+ users can't even figure out how to use the close reasons, then I guess it's no surprise that brand new users can't figure out how to ask good questions.
@mickmackusa Yes. If I recall, it's been complained about before, but never changed.
@KarlKnechtel Staff explicitly told us not to care. As Zoe said, I was, for a while, running a bot that detected the creation of new user accounts who had profiles filled with spam and was deleting them. The bot worked well, with very few FPs, but the workload was astronomically high: several hundreds per day on SO on average. Going through them all to review and delete took me several hours each day, even with some helper scripts, which I just didn't (and definitely don't now) have available.
Also, I lost my hosting, and since I didn't have time to go through the reports anyway, haven't taken the time to re-establish a new hosting setup. I doubt the profiles boost PageRank significantly, since the profiles for new users all have the links set to "nofollow", and if they haven't posted, they aren't linked anywhere to begin with.
I doubt flags pointing one out would be declined, but it's almost certainly not worth going through the effort to dig them up. If you naturally come across one, then you should definitely flag it, as that proves that the visibility is greater than zero.
05:32
Stuffs about Kubernetes are generally more suited to Server Fault, is not? If so, was this one migrated here (from Super User) by mistake?
... or is there are more general misunderstanding about what sort of k8 questions we accept on SO?
05:44
Note that it was migrated here by a SU mod; also, it already has 2 CVs for "Not about programming". I would normally also cast such a CV but, in this case, I skipped, in case closing it somehow "lost" the migration information.
@AdrianMole conclude yes; migrated back now
@tripleee Hmm. Probably not the best outcome ... better if had been re-migrated to Server Fault, I think. But is that (i.e. being returned to where it came from) the default when a migrated question gets closed?
yeah, it's closed on SU now; I left a comment there
This was oddly migrated to Stack Overflow even though it's not a programming question, from where it was returned to Super User when it was closed. Perhaps the migration should have been to Server Fault, where I believe this would be on-topic. — tripleee 25 secs ago
@CodyGray cc @KarlKnechtel I disagree with having users flag for profile spam. There's just way too much of it (hundreds of thousands, maybe more). If we want to take the time to delete it, then it's fairly easy for us to find at least thousands of such profiles. If it's something really egregious (e.g. child porn, actual trafficking, etc., then please do flag), but just run of the mill spam, please don't flag for profile spam.
05:59
If you come across it by doing something other than searching for spammy profiles, then I think it's reasonable to flag, as that proves that the profile does not have zero visibility, which is the reason we're choosing (and have been told) not to take any action.
That is to say, I don't disagree. And it being something really egregious is another reasonable scenario in which to raise a flag.
I should note that it's only partially effective for moderators to delete such profiles, because the user can always just immediately create a new profile from the main SE and have all the profile information back just the way it was. It takes a CM to actually handle the user, which the CMs aren't going to do, unless it's truly egregious.
while we are on a tangent, I vaguely resent the initiative to delete spammer accounts, and find it vaguely problematic (but admittedly fun!) when mods rename the user name to "Spammer" or some variation of that
I mean for actually deleted spam posted on one of the sites in the network
I think there's a meta post about not flagging dormant spam accounts, but do not recall seeing anything on meta about the other two; should we have discussions about those?
Yeah, I'm undecided on that one. I understand the reasons behind wanting to clear the profile and reset the name, as it's the only actually effective way for a moderator to get the spam off of more than one site without having to track down a mod from each affected site. There's no overall policy and opinions are divided.
@tripleee I'm unsure if you mean dormant accounts that have actually posted spam or just profile spammers. SO, the company, has been fairly clear on MSE that handling profile spam is something they are discouraging moderators from spending time on, but that individual moderators can take the time, if those mods want to do so. Unless a specific site has explicitly authorized it, I wouldn't raise flags about profile spam (again, unless it's truly egregious).
06:16
@Makyen yeah, spam profiles - there's meta.stackexchange.com/questions/303746/… and several linked questions without answers, but I could not quickly find one discussing actual policy (though it's mentioned in some comments)
wait, no, that's not about profile spam specifically, although one of the posts about it is closed as a duplicate of the general "flag abuse" post
this seems reasonably recent and authoritative, though slightly too specific meta.stackexchange.com/questions/303806/…
@tripleee Why do you resent deletion of spam accounts? I can't piece together the logic.
it's rather marginal, but it's useful for Smoke Detector when they return on the same account, whereas we need some additional conjecture when they have to create new accounts
Proper account destruction helps keep them from coming back in ways that SD cannot.
there's a heroic CM (?) over in the Tavern who deletes spam accounts when they spam on more than one site ... which sort of defies logic too; if we care, should we not delete the egregious ones first, even if they only spam a single site?
I don't follow. That seems to be saying the same thing.
06:26
@CodyGray that's useful knowledge, but mainly I hope there would be consistency
@CodyGray so 40 spams on Ask Ubuntu is not egregious, but two spams on different sites on the network should get your account deleted?
Seems like there is. When moderators handle spam, they generally always destroy the account, unless they've been specifically asked to refrain from doing so by staff, which is what happened in the case of the phone-number spammers, which staff was hoping to track heuristics for by leaving the profiles intact.
hm yeah, so similar to my argumentation as to what would be convenient for Charcoal
It sounds like your complaint is more that the Ask Ubuntu moderators do not destroy spam accounts?
except of course we don't get to dictate
Well, no, because Charcoal already has access to everything they would be able to see, because the post and metadata is copied into MS. Staff would be looking at information only visible to staff.
06:28
@CodyGray nah, I get it if they have more important things to do, just that this is an odd corner case in practice
Ideally, all spam accounts would be destroyed. In practice, like everything else, because this requires human intervention, it is not always done consistently.
plus the actual process in the Tavern is completely ad hoc, there are a couple of users who manually ping when they notice a cross-site spammer
@Makyen oh, excellent, thanks!
Animuson asks, "Has doing this actually led to any noticeable decrease in the amount of spam making it onto the site?" For what it's worth, I can emphatically say yes. When I was running the bot to detect creation of spammy profiles, it would regularly detect one, followed some time later by that account posting spam. When I destroyed those profiles before they were able to post, the amount of spam that got posted did noticeably decrease from my vantage point.
That's going to be less true for cleaning up old spammy user profiles, of course, but there's no justification for the level of complete apathy, aside from mere lack of resources.
06:31
I nominated meta.stackexchange.com/questions/303746/… as a duplicate, though I suppose it would be useful if the posts which are closed as a dupe of that would also have their dupe list redirected
@CodyGray is the code for that available?
@tripleee Yes, in Java: User Stalker
@CodyGray thanks!
@tripleee The truth is, this is annoying to me, too, because it's actually a complete waste of time. See, once the spam profile is destroyed on one site, it doesn't need to be destroyed network-wide, because destroying it on one site sill feeds it into SpamRam, thus preventing them from posting using any of their other profiles on other sites.
But that's a distinction between needing to destroy the profile on all sites, versus needing to destroy the profile on the site where it posted spam.
so is there any case for deleting cross-site spammers' profiles at all?
Mmm, I hate to say never.
It would certainly be a reasonable thing to do for completeness, if we had nothing else better to do. And there may be advantages that I cannot immediately think of.
06:36
Just delete all profiles of all users on all the sites. That would be very effective in preventing spam. Where's Dharman?
@CodyGray While I agree what you were doing did help noticeably, your (and our) impression may have ended up a little biased towards the helpful side, given that there was at least one, if not more, spam campaigns which were going on at the time that included multiple accounts. Seeing those and deleting the accounts prior to them posting spam did, certainly, help, but was probably disproportionate wrt. "average". I'm not saying it wouldn't have been helpful without that, just that the impression of effectiveness wouldn't have been quite the same.
Possibly so. I definitely agree that I was not conducting a scientific experiment with actual statistics or controls or anything like that. But at the level of spam that we deal with, even a small improvement is not insignificant.
@CodyGray As far as I know, SpamRam only works on IP addresses, so the user can use the same SE account, just not the same IP address for 7 or 14 days.
And I can totally understand an argument that, while this is something we would like to do, we simply don't have the resources to do it, and don't want to prioritize it over other higher-impact things. (This is basically the same reason I stopped running the bot!) But staff's cavalier dismissal of this as a silly idea is what grates me.
@Makyen The profile is not hobbled network-wide? I definitely had a different impression. Hmm.
@tripleee A substantial part of that issue is that SD and MS don't currently track (i.e. blacklist) users by SE account ID. We do so by site ID. We've been moving closer to being able to use SE account IDs. We're fairly close to doing so.
06:44
I, further, agree that this is probably what we should do as a sustainable solution to the problem. But I simply cannot agree that hundreds of profiles on the site advertising escort services are "no big deal".
@CodyGray Not that I'm aware of. As far as I know, SpamRam is only by IP address.
@CodyGray amen sibling
@CodyGray Yes, there are multiple, easy potential solutions which should be relatively trivial for SE to implement, but they basically just aren't doing so, even though it's been requested multiple times in multiple ways.
0
Q: Should we burninate the [360] tag?

cocomacI think we should burninate the 360 tag Does it describe the contents of the questions to which it is applied? and is it unambiguous? Totally ambiguous Is the concept described even on-topic for the site? Maybe? It doesn’t even describe a topic, so possibly? Still a poor tag though Does the tag a...

07:10
Do I flag this as undisclosed and redundant spam? stackoverflow.com/a/69468786/2943403
@mickmackusa You would not want to flag it as spam, because even if it is undisclosed self-promotion, it's not obviously spam. (After a cursory glance, I cannot even confirm that it is undisclosed self-promotion. If you have evidence that it is, that would be a useful thing to include in a flag.)
^ Waiting a year and a half to post that seems a bit weird. Or did they have ChatGPT answer(s) deleted recently?
No. Not on that account, at least. (I haven't checked for a connection yet, so this isn't an evasive way of saying "yes".)
07:27
Probably not important. Just some eejit being puerile.
07:39
@CodyGray hmm, I don't know why I thought the poster was related to the article. My bad. I've custom flagged to request the deletion of the "retread" answer.
jps
jps
@karel There's an answer with identical text as the question but from a different account. Trolling?
@jps I flagged the trolling answer as VLQ.
@SotiriosDelimanolis That doesn't even appear, at least superficially, to be a duplicate. Did you notice that the asker edited the question after it was closed as a duplicate? They've attempted to clarify that they're asking something different. No lip service has been paid to that. And even if this were a duplicate, I don't see why it merits deletion.
@tripleee I disagree with deleting that... It looks like it's received several potentially-useful answers, even if the original problem was due to a typo.
jps
jps
08:15
@AdrianMole plagiarized (with a few changes) from the answer above
I wasn't quite convinced enough to raise a plagiarism flag. But, yeah ...
... they could even both be plagiarized from some other external source?
The bad grammar/spelling tends to support your analysis, though.
08:36
Is the option to flag answers as "very low quality" missing for anybody else?
@StephenOstermiller It goes away on answers over a certain age (1 week?) and/or that have had an upvote.
ah, that is dumb. Thanks
09:05
@StephenOstermiller Very dumb; agreed. It should go away on all answers.
And then on all questions.
09:36
stackoverflow.com/a/74988979/4826457 is this partial enough for NAA? I suspect partial paste of chatgpt
Here is an example of how you can flag this answer:
You don't. Just post it here. :)
Yeah, I guess that joke makes less sense in chat, where it's impossible to tell when someone has finished typing and submitted their final message.
@SurajRao I suspect that too
But yeah. It contains no content. It looks like they attempted to post an answer, but either experienced a copy-paste error or an aneurysm. Those are cases for a NAA flag. No need in this case to assess whether it was machine-generated or not.
09:44
their other answer is definitely chatgpt which I did flag
10:02
I'm still waiting for a mod message along the following lines: Declined. It looks like you are trying to suggest that this answer was AI generated. Here are some things to check, before raising such a flag in future ...
10:20
@AdrianMole You appear to be confusing ChatGPT with Clippy...
 
1 hour later…
11:20
stackoverflow.com/questions/70681370/… weird.. possilble duplicate (NATO).. bounty set by answerer
@CodyGray in hindsight Clippy was way ahead of its time.
@rene You mean, by revealing just how dreadful Microsoft "features" would become?
@SurajRao I have flagged that answer as well
11:37
yeah.. chatgpt nonsense for a typo
What's the 'proper' way to handle posts like this answer, considering the OP's earlier, now deleted answer, which @SurajRao did some work on?
(For those without 10k privs, the earlier answer is textually identical to the new one; Suraj edited to remove the French version.)
... and it was self-deleted.
no.. mod deleted and undeleted the previous one
@AdrianMole mod flag works, or you could just edit it again and leave a comment like the one you did
@SurajRao nope, self-deleted: stackoverflow.com/posts/74980445/revisions
err, rather, Adrian meant that the original was self-deleted
yeah... I thought they meant the one now
11:48
@RyanM Mod flag for what reason? Isn't this something that "the community" can handle?
anyway I figure giving Suraj credit for the edit is ideal even if it's very straightforward deletion so I put it back.
@AdrianMole yeah, hence the suggestion of edit/comment
I guess actually the community can reverse self-deletion
it's just...very uncommon, I suppose
@SurajRao I (nearly) always know what I mean. If others get confused, how is that my problem? :-)
 
1 hour later…
13:11
@NathanOliver Happy New Year!
13:22
Wonderful; Hugging Face's AI detector is down.
I was having problems, earlier. But it wasn't completely down, just struggling with stuffs that contained a lot of code.
I keep getting "504: Gateway Time-out"
OK, that's different. I was just getting ... nothing.
I once got it to load, but it just sat there saying "Predicting" forever. When I finally refreshed, I got a 504.
Maybe the same, then. I lost patience and gave up.
13:29
Sorry went to bed before I saw this. The linked post explains how the use of static fields within static initializers can be a problem. That's good for their first snippet of code. Their second snippet of code isn't laid out that way, so doesn't have that problem.

I've added a second post with the corresponding section of the JLS.

"How java class initialization works?" is not a useful sign post.
But it worked (again) on 'simpler' stuff, even after the 'hanging' thing.
Pfft .. what's with these high-rep users that come along and interject in otherwise decent conversations. ;-P
the detector some times becomes unavailable, usually it gets restored shortly after
like, within the hour
It's probably under a fair bit of 'stress', just now.
13:54
Should this be closed or not? Question has a fair amount of up-votes but it's basically a "How do I do that?" question. Accepted answer is just a link to a feature request. 1 answer is promoting several libraries that are in violation of Google's TOS and 2 answers are product recommendations that are close to spam. What do you think?
Haven't looked at the question, but... what's wrong with "How do I do that?" questions?
@MrUpsidown Looks good, to me. Not sure that closing a question because it has (some) bad answers is the way to go.
@CodyGray Seeking recommendations or being too broad maybe?
@MrUpsidown Are you arguing that that specific question is one of those things (maybe), or that all "how to" questions are one of those things (wrong)?
@AdrianMole No it's not but I definitely don't consider this one a good question. Do you consider this is a good question?
14:08
@MrUpsidown It's not actually "seeking recommendations" ... even if some of the answers are recommending libraries, &c.
@CodyGray I am talking about that specific question.
@MrUpsidown I'm neither plus nor minus on it. But, judging from the views and score, others have found it useful.
@gnat "needs focus" is a cv-pls reason, not a del-pls reason. The question appears closed, but I'm not sure it needs to be deleted; it's clearly signaled that it's not a good question via the closure and the negative score
Maybe some of the answers need a bit of {cough} tender curation, but why punish a Q because it gets bad As? (Unless that's implicit in the question itself.)
14:10
@AdrianMole okay. Get your point. To me it's a bad question. But as you said, others have found it useful.
@TylerH @gnat if you feel the question is in need of deletion for a valid deletion reason, you may re-request for that reason
@StephenOstermiller Only a moderator can undelete that--binning since we can't help here. Consider raising a mod flag instead.
@TylerH Can you dev null stackoverflow.com/questions/72725826/… It needs a moderator to undelete, so the request here is not appropriate.  I flagged it.
@MrUpsidown As curators, we have to 'step back' a bit from our own, personal feelings, and look at things from a "site rules" perspective.
14:12
@AdrianMole as I said, I would not close a Q because it got bad A's - but I think this is a pretty bad one anyway. Sounds like "I have seen this (image) on a website, how do I achieve that?" - which to me is a bad question.
@MrUpsidown So, for situations like that, there is a purpose-built button. In your terms, it's the upvote button but the upside-down version. :)
Attracting many bad answers is a common reason for closing questions. It is the whole reason that the close reason for recommendations exists.
@AdrianMole true :)
@StephenOstermiller A question could be good/valid and still attract bad answers...
@StephenOstermiller Hmm. Dodgy ground. The "Opinion based" close reason states, "likely to attract opinion-based answers" (or some such) but the "seeking recommendations" reason does not have such a clause. If the question is not seeking links, libraries, tutorials, etc., then it shouldn't be closed as such.
recommendation questions can be asked in good faith, useful to users, and very popular. Pretty much the definition of good and valid. However, they are also too much work to moderate.
Closing doesn't say that a question is bad. Just that this site isn't where it can be answered.
14:23
Only if it's actually a recommendation question. If it's a "how-to" question, then that's an invalid close reason.
(cough) custom close reason. :)
Custom close reasons aren't meant as a way to underhandedly close questions for invalid reasons, even though a lot of people use them that way.
@MrUpsidown (Not to pile on :-)) There's nothing wrong with that question--OP's asking how to do a specific task in a specific API, which is on-topic. That the thing is not possible is "OK" in terms of validity; "you can't do that" is a valid answer on Stack Overflow.
I'm voting to close this question because Cody Gray says there's no other reason to close it.
9
^ Not actually as daft as some of the reasons given in the link that Cody gave (to me) a bit earlier on ...
... here.
14:53
@AdrianMole Sounds legit
Ooops ... I just tried to upvote a ChatGPT answer. {face-palm}. For some reason, it showed as "undeleted" for a few seconds before I saw that it had been mod-deleted and got the, "You can't upvote deleted answers" message.
@tripleee No repro is a close reason, not a delete reason; however, while the answers seem useful for the problem posed, I'm not sure the question is even on-topic on Stack Overflow... it seems like 'general vagrant support' which the tag shows is off-topic (I'm not familiar with Vagrant). I'm binning this request--you may re-request with a valid delete reason if you feel one applies.
15:22
The tag is being burninated: Open Qs - Close Queue - Meta CW
oh great, now we will have no choice ;)
Stop complaining about the lack of choice. You're lucky we leave any tags at all :P
15:39
I often feel that way, yes. :-|
17:21
It looks like smokey is having some issues
I'm not sure but SD may have reported that question and answer before
!!/status
@NathanOliver Running since 16:31:26 UTC (52 minutes, 30 seconds)
 
1 hour later…
Can't tell if that's actually spam or just a NAA
@jmoerdyk spam the same user made a post almost identical earlier today with the same site. Then another user made an almost identical post about an hour ago as well
Well, in that case...
@JosephWood the format is [tag:cv-pls]
@JosephWood Please use a standard reason for closure. "NMF" is too vague
@TylerH how did you write that without it auto formatting to the "button" type?
I encapsulated it in backticks (The ` character)
Writing `test` will output test
@Machavity, my apologies, I saw that used earlier this week... NMS = "Needs More Focus"
@TylerH much appreciated
22:05
@JosephWood It isn't clear because some of us are Not Much Fun (NMF.)
6
🚽
for some reason i got forcibly logged out
22:20
Does someone have a handy link to a meta discussion where it states to not add explanations to code-only answers?
wasn't there one recently
ok, perhaps this one
@blackgreen I think so
however I'm not sure the latter post shows clear community consensus... :|
22:37
yea thats the one problem
22:48
if I find a good question with the choice tag, do I just remove the tag or do I need to do something else in the edit as well
just remove the tag and mayve upvote it if you think it's good
ok
what if the question is years old
should i be afraid of bumping it
What's the problem with bumping it?
well something will need to be done with the question
and besides SO gets so much activity nobody would notice
yeah true
22:52
wait
Do inline tag edits even bump the questions?
People under 2k rep shouldent participate in burnations iirc
why not?
since it takes more work since 2 people need to approve the edit instead of 1 person making the edit
23:07
is it ok to participate in the burnination by flagging bad stuff
You mean flagging questions that should be closed for closure? Yes
yea flagging is always fine
its just editing really I think
iirc
(if the posts are worth flagging ofc)
If you are thinking of raising a custom flag "This question contains a tag that's burninated" - don't do that, it just wastes moderator time
i know
i do read meta
23:13
and will be declined
time to use up my 21 flags a day~
though if you read enough meta you will be fine
@RedzGoose If there is anything else that can be improved, then you should do that at the same time you're making the edit. Don't just remove the [choice] tag, unless that's the only thing that can be improved with the question.
2
@Ethan In general, probably not. Definitely not if you're suggesting edits that do nothing but remove a tag. But if you're removing the tag while also making the same type of high-quality, substantial edits that you normally would when suggesting edits, then it's reasonable for you to continue to do so.
The issue is that it potentially wastes your time to review questions for a tag being burninated and see some that you can't handle, due to your privilege limitations.
@dan1st ...and maybe downvote if you think it's bad.
true
23:17
@dan1st Yes. Every edit bumps. Bumping is annoying, so should be avoided whenever possible. If you're making an edit to an old question, make it a substantial one.
@CodyGray So even in burninations, we should edit more for old questions?
@blackgreen The thing about Meta is, you can get a link to a discussion that pretty much says anything you want. Recommending people not to improve code-only answers makes no sense.
@dan1st Whenever you're going to edit, make it count. Burninations are massively disruptive to the site. Some argue they're necessary in spite of that disruption. But at least avoid someone else having to go back later and make additional edits.
I ended up not using that argument for that reason
@blackgreen Thank $deity!
at the very least, using a meta thread that contains highly upvoted conflicting answers, seems a sure recipe for making people even more confused
I'm no cook, but...
23:23
Using that particular one is a great way of really making me angry...
do the lenses become red when you're angry?
They glow and pulsate.

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