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12:46 AM
Is 165 rep enough to self-nominate as a candidate for moderatorship? I'm failing to find the requirements that are implemented across all SE sites.
 
1:09 AM
 
1:43 AM
@mickmackusa IIRC it's 300 except for SO and maybe one other.
ah yeah what that page says.
 
@mickmackusa where do you want to be a moderator?
 
2:37 AM
I see a question that I think is problematic. Can I get advice on what to do? [Java program to find the largest & smallest number in n numbers without using arrays](https://stackoverflow.com/q/21925830/11107541)
First problem: _lots_ of views and -8 score.

I think the title is not specific enough. It kind of sounds like a nice and trivial algorithm question that could be useful to many people, but it's really more of a "why is my implementation not working" question. Title also says "not using arrays", but body contains code only about "from stdin". The post has a _lot_ of views and I thin
 
Why delete the link to the post? I don't see any redeeming value in the post or any of its answers, but someone has chosen to protect it to prevent it from deletion.
 
@david-fong You deleted your earlier message with the link to the post. So, most of the people are going to have no clue as to what you're talking about.
 
sorry! bad copy-paste :( here's the link to the post: stackoverflow.com/q/21925830/11107541
 
3:00 AM
man, that question (not actually a question) is awful
 
3:17 AM
@Nick I don't want to be a moderator of another site. I'm thinking of recruiting a moderator candidate.
 
3:29 AM
Does this answer actually try to answer the question? IMHO I think that it completely misses the actual question and just provides code to something that haven't been asked for.
 
 
2 hours later…
 
6:01 AM
@sideshowbarker Thanks for the reply. I don't use any of the userscripts for automatically generating requests in here (obviously) and never have, so I don't really have an intuitive feel for what specific reasons are auto-generated. If "no code" is really part of the auto-generated reason in that userscript, perhaps the userscript should be revised, because this is a specific issue that does not apply to all questions that need debugging details.
But, yes, somewhat like Stephen said, the close reason "needs/lacks debugging details" does only apply to questions that are seeking debugging help, so it makes little sense to apply it to "how-to" questions, so that was already confusing me.
@sideshowbarker The thing is, an MRE is only required for debugging questions. While many/most questions on SO might (unfortunately) be debugging questions, that is not the only type of question, and definitely not the most useful or interesting question. Such non-debugging questions (including how-to questions) do not require MREs, and thus cannot be closed for lacking them.
They may, of course, lack sufficient information to explain the problem, in which case, the "needs details or clarity" close reason can/should be used, preferably with a comment describing what specific information/details are needed, since, as you mentioned, the close reason description is generic (by necessity) and thus does not include question-specific information.
(If the problem is obvious, like the question is content-free or non-English, then it is reasonable to save effort by not posting a comment that points out the obvious.)
@KarlKnechtel I mean, I don't know, I really and truly don't get it. What do you mean by "information already presented"? You mean that the code sample shown in the question demonstrates that the author already understands looping and printing, so they should be able to apply their understanding of those concepts to solve other problems?
I mean, obviously they cannot, which is why they're asking a question, and having a standard that expects people to solve their own problems is completely counter-productive to a Q&A site. As I already noted, given what I know about programming, I can solve the vast majority of problems completely on my own, which is why I rarely ask any questions (and those that do are mostly just a result of my getting lazy or bored and giving up before I find the answer(s) myself), but that's honestly...
...not all that great for contributing to the knowledge base here. It would be better if I actually did ask the question, presuming that I could not find an existing Q&A here covering it, even if I answered the question myself by applying the concepts I already know. This isn't like going to a professor's office hours and wasting their time by asking questions you already know the answer to. That's not the correct cognitive model for an SE Q&A site.
@KarlKnechtel It really seems like you are criticizing those who ask questions for not already knowing the answer, and that's honestly just ridiculous. If you, given your knowledge and experience, are able to draw out a more fundamental issue from a question than the asker's myopic view allows them to do, then you are welcome and even encouraged to edit the question and do so. But criticizing the asker for asking a question about the specific problem that they're having is...
well, maybe it's coherent, but it certainly explains why you're so frustrated.
@KarlKnechtel No, what you do when the solution to the problem is obvious to you is to answer the question. Talk about not understanding why this is difficult to understand...
@KarlKnechtel Hmm. There are some good examples of that question, but someone closed them as duplicates of something that they are not obvious duplicates of.
If you have a string, and you want to build another string that contains that original string repeated N times, that doesn't have anything at all to do with a list, and yet all of the questions you've closed that as a duplicate of talk about lists.
So if you're frustrated with the inability to find information on Stack Overflow about this, then from where I'm sitting, you have only yourself to blame...
Of course, if you already know Python and everything about how it works, then you can connect these dots, but... that's not going to be the case for anyone asking questions, nor is it the case for most people searching for answers to questions. Yet somehow you got to a point where you think that that's a reasonable expectation.
@tacoshy It is an attempt to answer the question. The fact that it fails to answer the question is not relevant. Wrong answers shouldn't be flagged as NAA.
 
6:26 AM
The upcoming book The Makyen Monologues will be introduced by Cody Gray
3
 
@rene Can I put down this beer now?
 
sure
 
7:25 AM
@tripleee why did your hammer not work?
 
He added the [python] tag, and hammers don't recognize version-specific tags.
 
never mind... just saw the tag edit...
 
Imagine having a [python*] hammer. That'd be cool.
 
You'd run out of votes pretty quickly...
 
Ah, that must be why the turbocharged diamond hammers also come with unlimited votes.
In all seriousness, are there actually stats confirming that those with dupehammers regularly run out of votes? If so, someone should put together a Meta proposal to increase that limit.
Last time I saw a discussion about it, Shog9 was offering evidence that very few close-voters ever use up all their daily allotment of votes. (Likely, folks who frequent this room are an exception to that claim, though.)
 
7:34 AM
@CodyGray that would be interesting to know... I certainly don't in general, I've been averaging almost exactly 10 a day over all the time I've had an account
 
@CodyGray I give up. Every response you offer there seems to misrepresent and/or misunderstand me so blatantly that I don't even know where to begin responding.
 
@KarlKnechtel I assure you, it is not intentional.
 
The "good example" you found is not a good example at all. I gave multiple duplicate links because solving the question involves doing multiple things, each of which is well-trodden ground. The canonical I'm looking for would explicitly involve not "separat[ing] each repetition with another string"; but even more importantly, the question you found is about getting print to work a certain way, not about creating a string.
I just removed the middle duplicate, because it seems confirmed that OP is thinking only about printing.
@CodyGray What I mean is that the code shows that OP understands that *(p+i) accesses the ith value of the array pointed at by p, and also that OP understands how to swap element 0 with element 4. The goal is for the next iteration of the loop to swap element 1 with element 3, but the code tries to swap element 1 with a nonexistent element 5.
The point is that OP should be able to figure out that adding 1 to 4 gives 5, and that, since the goal is to get 3 starting from 4, the appropriate thing to do is to subtract 1 instead.
and from what I can make of OP's now-deleted comment responses to me, the part where I talked through this logic in the comments did in fact enable OP to understand and solve the problem.
 
@Nick I already do, really; but today, not yet
 
well the night is yet young! :)
 
8:12 AM
@CodyGray I don't think that's too common; if I go on a dedicated dupe hunt, that could happen, but they are often exhausting, and so that would be maybe once per month, tops
@Nick over here, the morning is getting old
 
plenty of time then!
 
@CodyGray I don't understand why it seems this way, given that e.g. I'm the author of stackoverflow.com/questions/72482298 to handle those typos and give detailed explanation
I am criticizing OPs for failing to figure out what it is that is actually causing difficulty
 
@KarlKnechtel Yeah, I really, really don't get it. You are complaining about the question and saying it's unsuitable because you answered it for them in the comments?!
 
@KarlKnechtel Yeah. That's what I said: you're criticizing them for not solving their own problem.
 
8:17 AM
no
 
If you know what is causing the problem, then you know the solution to the problem: stop doing that thing.
 
I'm complaining about the question and saying it's unsuitable because I pointed out that OP failed to apply elementary logic, and OP then answered it by applying elementary logic
 
You are attempting to draw a distinction that simply cannot exist.
 
the distinction is crystal clear and I don't understand why you can't see it.
 
What is obvious to you, in retrospect and/or after knowing the answer, is not necessarily obvious prima facie.
 
8:18 AM
..and?
what happened to this not being a help desk?
 
Uhhh.... that's not what that means.
It doesn't mean "go away if you cannot figure out the problem yourself".
 
I did not say anything of the sort.
 
I see no distinction whatsoever.
 
the distinction is crystal clear and I don't understand why you can't see it.
 
You are literally making a "GTFO, you're too dumb to solve this problem yourself" argument, and I personally find it offensive.
 
8:20 AM
No, I am not saying anything of the sort.
and I find your repeated mischaracterization of what I have to say offensive.
 
I am unable to find any other way to interpret the multiple attempts you've made to explain the position.
Even with the example in a language I understand well, you've now clarified that your objection is that they couldn't put two and two together, figuring out how to combine their knowledge of array indexing with their knowledge of assignment to solve their problem about reversing the order of elements in an array.
That's literally why they asked a question.
 
.... no
The problem is that OP **either** didn't think about *which element to swap*
or else made a typo
when I talk people through logic like this, it's with the mindset of "this is probably either a typo or a comparable oversight, and if I just follow the Socratic method, it should become clear"
like, you did get that, with comments like tge one I wrote there, I'm trying to apply the Socratic method?
 
See, I actually think that this "trying to apply the Socratic method" thing is evidence of your treating the site like a help desk or an educational institution, rather than a Q&A site.
It doesn't make it an unsuitable question because it arose from an oversight or misunderstanding or failure to apply logic on the part of the asker.
 
...
then what the yam is a "typo"?
 
"ShowWindw" => should be "ShowWindow"
 
8:26 AM
...
are questions about pure logic on topic for stack overflow? How about questions about arithmetic?
 
"simple typographical error" is what it says in the close reason (or... used to? Looks like that was removed and the close reason's description was simplified?)
It wasn't a question about pure logic. It was a question that can be resolved by applying pure logic. That's not the same thing.
 
you know
I'm honestly tempted to just start asking troll questions that I think are on-topic according to your definitions, just to illustrate the problem
 
Lots of practical programming problems that are absolutely on-topic here are solved by the application of pure logic and/or arithmetic.
 
sdjasdjklaa
it is NOT ABOUT FEELING THAT QUESTIONS "DON'T DESERVE" AN ANSWER
 
Well, no. You feel that they do, so long as the asker arrives at it themselves. You are willing to "help" them by applying the Socratic method. So, granted, your approach to it is unique and a bit more idiosyncratic.
 
10:00 AM
@KarlKnechtel That actually sounds like a good idea. It would at least get rid of the part of the discussion that depends on the state of mind of the user asking the question ("what part are they actually not understanding", "where are they actually stuck", etc). Don't post a bunch of questions though, just one should serve as an illustration.
 
10:29 AM
@CodyGray I can provide evidence that those who do a lot of reviews (FQ and CV) regularly run out of daily close votes. At least one of those regular reviewers has a dupe hammer in two tags. :)
... this will no doubt have become more of a problem since the increase of the FQ limit to 80 per day.
Or, maybe, we're not supposed to be voting to close unclear questions, or those lacking debugging details, in FQ. Maybe we should be "Sharing feedback", instead. {Runs away and dodges the expected growling response...}
Does the poster of this question have a (flaggably) offensive username?
 
@AdrianMole I don't think so. They've had that user name since they joined the site, it hasn't caused any issues yet, and it's not unambiguously inappropriate.
 
Yeah - I saw that the Q was handled by a (then) moderator. But I can't tell if the name has been changed since.
 
@AdrianMole Isn't voting to close a question literally a way of sharing feedback? *trollface*
 
Hmm. Since a discussion you and I had in here, some time back, I now only use the canned feedback option very rarely. But that means I run out of CVs more often (quite often use up 30 - 40 in FQ reviews).
So, the nett outcome is that I'm spending more of my review resources pushing posts into the CV queue but have less resources left to do anything about helping to clear that queue.
Maybe that's "by design"?
 
10:52 AM
I've increasingly come to realize that nothing in the review queues is "by design", because there was no design. It's just complete chaos.
Nothing else ever happens, indeed; that pretty much sums up the review queues.
 
@CodyGray People get gold badges
 
@JeanneDark Does... does that +4 answer say comma and then show an example of omitting the colon?
 
I guess the syntax is correct
 
Oh, I misread. It's not saying "don't do this: <example>, instead do this: <example>". It's saying: "do either this: <example>, or this: <example>".
Too many choices. :-)
 
@RyanM I asked Glorfindel if he would be interested in putting another site on his belt (JSE), but he declined. He also seems to believe that the minimum rep is 300.
 
11:06 AM
@CodyGray I know you aren't a great fan of the review queues (nor have you ever been, I think) but they are a necessary evil. The whole system has definitely deteriorated since the last (read "final") round of {cough} improvements.
 
@AdrianMole I feel like the second sentence is putting the lie to the first.
I'm supposed to have become more enthusiastic about the purpose and function of the review queues as they have become worse for no reason whatsoever?
 
JSE needs a moderator re-boot since graduating out of beta. But we have 2 mods now and only one more user who is interested in becoming a mod. This means that if we hold a new election, there will be no vote, and it would be a disappointment (to me) to miss an opportunity for meta engagement.
 
A "moderator re-boot" sounds somewhat painful.
I'm not sure if that's like shoeing a horse or what.
 
@CodyGray why?
 
I didn't want to get the first boot!
 
11:09 AM
@CodyGray No, I wasn't - in any way - attempting to put blame on you, or to criticise your stance. But I gather you were never a regular review-queue participator, even in your pre-Diamond days.
 
@AdrianMole I was not, no. I did not care for the review queues then, either. Although then my main complaint was that looking at content out of context was not productive and did not produce particularly good outcomes.
That concern seems positively quaint by comparison to today.
 
Presumably, the review queue system was introduced at some point after the creation of the site ... and, presumably, because it was considered necessary.
 
I don't think that logically follows.
 
I've yet to ingest caffeine, today, so my logic may not be on Vulcan levels.
 
Is caffeine positively correlated with logical coherence?
 
11:39 AM
@mickmackusa But in all seriousness, don't you think it's more important to get a moderator who cares about the site (even to the point of being passionate) than to get someone who, like Glorfindel, knows his way around the tools?
Are you really feeling like the mod crew doesn't know how to use the tools effectively and needs guidance from someone experienced?
I know that's a real thing on plenty of small sites, but you know plenty of SO mods that you know well that you can just ask outright if you have questions about using the tools or what is an appropriate way to handle a situation, so... I don't see how that'd be a real issue on Joomla.
 
@CodyGray Sorry for ignoring (it's noising when I am hammering dupes). My philosophy on what is important in a moderator has shifted somewhat recently. While it is a nice-to-have for moderators to have a high level of subject matter expertise, I am now of a mind that it is more important to have mods with an experience-sharpened philosophy on what is good for a community and its content.
I am confident that Glorfindel will have sharper philosophies than me. There is a real opportunity for fresh eyes to make good, simple moves to influence our mod team.
To be perfectly honest, I am not much of a SME with respect to Joomla (despite working for a Joomla dev agency over 3 years ago).
 
I see. Well, if you ever want to hear my philosophies, you know where to find me. Unfortunately, I don't even have the time to mod SO, so I don't think Joomla is in the cards. :-)
 
My vision is that Joomla's SMEs must be groomed in the arts of SE before they are ideal as moderators.
 
(This is like saying I don't have time to build a house, so how will I find time to make dinner? But still.)
 
Honestly, JSE has like NO workload. And even when there are flags or something to take care of -- I visit it daily and zero out everything, even the review queues.
It would be really good to have someone who specializes in tag development.
I'm sure there would be plenty of tag curation for someone with a keen eye.
 
11:54 AM
Do you have what you perceive to be a tag problem?
 
I'm pretty sure I'd welcome any volunteers from this room to become candidates because by merely being here, you obviously have a good fundamental perspective on how a good system should work.
Our tags aren't grossly out of control. I know I went on a tag-wiki editing spree in the time between joining JSE and becoming a mod. There were loads of tags with absolutely no description text.
We've got redundant tags. Synonyms and pruning should be done. Some re-configuring too. I think I've previously talked about a good tag naming convention for version-specific tags. (AskUbuntu does things differently than SO.)
Describing Joomla tags is somewhat of a SME task. You pretty much gotta know Joomla in order to make insightful text for its Joomla-specific tags.
 
Yes, of course.
Controversial: A good naming convention for version-specific tags is to drop the version-specific part.
 
12:30 PM
Talking about broken review queues: Is it OK for a post with a "pending edit" to be used as an audit? I can't really see why not but I'm pretty sure I've never seen that before.
 
Why does the edit summary for that suggested edit say "fix missing backticks" when the edit actually removed backticks?
 
It proposed to fix them by making them missing?
 
I think I missed something...
 
Presumably, you didn't miss Peter's comment. :)
 
Indeed. I wish there were enough hours in the day to read all of Peter's comments.
 
12:43 PM
Sounds like you need your reading glasses to implement hyperthreading.
 
1:33 PM
 
@SurajRao Ehh...arguably "there may be an issue while you were installing the distro" is answer-ish, but that one's definitely borderline.
 
\o
 
I have to ask one thing.
Is there any option for starting a room with any user?
Like I click on users who are in this room, there's an option, but how to find this option in someone's SO profile itself?
 
Yes, that's an option. But it's not really something you should use... It's like cornering someone in a dark alley and demanding they talk to you.
A user must have a chat profile in order to start a chat with them. Not all users on SO have chat profiles associated with their accounts (although most do, even if they are not active chat users).
 
1:44 PM
I do that all the time. It's common practice in Glasgow, around 11:30 pm on a Friday or Saturday night.
 
No, sir Code Gray I have to talk about some general things only with one user for instance.
As you stated A user must have a chat profile in order to start a chat with them, suppose if a user have, so where can we find that?
Ahh sorry I closed that.
Its rude and abusive, I must have flagged that.
 
Is it advisable or recommended to add that you've flagged a post, when you make a comment pointing out that a post is plagiarized? I just flagged such a post (commented by another user) but, had they given a brief hint that they had already flagged, it could save some time and effort for others. (Just a simple "- flagged" at the end of such a comment, maybe?)
But I guess multiple flags for the same reason on a post isn't a big issue from the moderators' perspective.
 
Adrian Mole, I literally think that the question was both "rude and abusive" and "spam" at same time.
 
@SunderamDubey Talking about a different post.
 
As soon as, I seen "naked" I flagged as "rude and abusive".
Ahh sorry.
 
1:54 PM
@AdrianMole It is not advisable or recommended. Flags are confidential, and you don't need to disclose how you flagged. Additionally, putting something like "flagged" in a comment tends to come across as confrontational, so there's really no point. It doesn't save moderator workload to have only one flag per-issue on a post. Multiple flags for the same issue can be dispatched just as expediently as one.
Ah, yeah, you got there in the second message. :-)
@SunderamDubey I don't understand what that means. You're just reiterating to me that you want to do something, not explaining why it is a good idea.
 
@CodyGray But, then, probably best not to assume that such a post is already flagged? Unless it's by someone we know will likely have done so.
 
I want to ask things which are not related to moderation or this site from the user.
 
@SunderamDubey There is not currently an easy way for you (as a normal user) to get to the chat profile associated with a user's Stack Overflow profile (moderators can do this). However, you can follow the procedure documented in this feature-request to add such a feature.
@AdrianMole Never assume a post has been flagged. If it's something that needs to be flagged, always flag it yourself.
@SunderamDubey But why do you assume that the user will want to discuss that with you?
 
They'll I think.
Anyway, leave this matter.
 
2:18 PM
 
@david-fong Just a reminder that cv-pls requests need to have some recent activity (activity in the last 6 months).
 
"'clickbait' views"... why are they "clickbait"?
 
@HovercraftFullOfEels Screenshots are now replaced with code
 
@gre_gor Yep. Room owner (or mod), please undo my CV-Pls for chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/55345480#55345480
 
@Dharman Oops (re. one of my recent flags). 🤦
 
I'm happy to decline some flags :)
1 message moved to SOCVR /dev/null, per request
 
@Dharman: thanks!
 
2:58 PM
SO is unusably slow... again
 
OK, so it's not just me, then
 
@CodyGray The title is misleadingly broad. "C scanf to array" is something probably a lot of people want to do, but when they click on a google search result to this post, instead of getting something generally applicable to them, they get a "why isn't my code working?" question.
 
Is this NAA?
although tells about only custom user.
 
I'd say it is NAA
 
Ya, that's what I think, as without the link the rest of content is unnecessary.
also the tutorial shared also not from official Django docs.
 
 
1 hour later…
4:12 PM
This looks like a good question but a commentator has raised an issue about the possibility of duplicate accounts. Any ideas? (Or is such discussion disallowed, in here?)
 
Flag for moderator's attention and they will escalate to CMs for merging
 
I'm a bit shy of requesting escalation from moderators, at the moment. ;(
 
 
2 hours later…
5:54 PM
Bug in SO main site, see my reputation tab someone accepted and upvoted my answer but it only gives +10 instead of +25 reputation, then it goes to 4232 from 4222 rather than going to 4247.
Could anybody upvote my answer for just checking, then unupvote, see the reputation increases or not?
Anyone not online here?
In my this recent answer.
 
6:09 PM
I see +35 for the 2 upvotes and 1 accept. I don't see anything wrong with it
 
@Ethan what? I am talking about the answer I shared above as in this recent answer.
 
@SunderamDubey My bad should of looked at the whole title of the question instead of the first 2 words
 
I see +25 for that answer for the accept and upvote
 
Yes it only given me +10 and for the +15 won't given me :(
Reputation went to 4232 from 4222, it should be 4247.
Also, I'd like to share one thing, as soon as the pop-up of +25 shown, I clicked on it but the moment, I clicked It goes and then become +10.
Not sure soem Stack Overflow bug, or some problem with same time upvote and acceptance.
 
6:21 PM
Reputation updates are rattled with race conditions and caching. Don't expect anything to be accurate up until 24 hours after the last reputation event (in case you compare with your Network account reputation chart for example)
3
@SunderamDubey read-up on meta.stackexchange.com/questions/43004/… for background on how to really audit your reputation.
 
Anyway, I'd compare and check, thanks rene my friend.
The point is not just I'm sad for +15 reputation, but to see the bug even of acceptance, you'd definately know that if someone accepts answer, even after someone gained his maximum reputation 200, then also they'll get +15, that's annoying me how reputation of acceptance became imperfect, if it were of votes, so I would not be concerned that much.
 
6:58 PM
@CodyGray Given the significant change to how things work that's supposed to come with the Staging Ground (SG), it's probably a good idea to delay making such a request until SG deploys and we get a better idea bout what's going to be required.
I'd expect it's more likely a request made after the release of SG would be successful, rather than one made prior to SG being released. At a minimum, a request made after SG releases won't get a "things are going to change with Staging Ground, so we don't think this should be done at this time".
In addition, there have been a notable number of requests for increasing available close votes over the years, all, effectively, declined (except, obviously, the early increase to 50). In order to have such a request be successful, the request will need to address the reasons raised in prior declines.
 
 
2 hours later…
9:17 PM
 
9:56 PM
@mickmackusa the answer doesn't even match OPs requirement...
 
@Nick You are right. I should have mentioned that.
 

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