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2 hours later…
4:23 AM
No keyboard shortcuts any more in the Why should this be closed? dialog?
used to be able to do 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 to choose radio buttons
 
@sideshowbarker Yes. There's a meta reporting the issue: Changes to the close dialogue have broken keyboard shortcuts for closing a post
 
Anyone else interested in chatting with Lisa about upcoming work on the review queue UI?
2
 
4:42 AM
@Makyen aha — thanks
@Catija I’d offer to, but I don’t actually use the review queue UI, so I don’t think I’d be any help
btw I really love dark mode — very happy to have it
 
@sideshowbarker Is there a reason for that? (just curious)
I'm glad you are enjoying dark mode! :D
 
@Catija I'm interested.
 
Cool. :)
 
:)
 
@Catija I quit doing reviews via review queues because of too many times getting false positives for failed audits
or maybe the audits actually work in my case, because I’m not paying enough attention
not reviewing carefully enough
 
4:59 AM
@sideshowbarker Ah. I understand. I know that audits can be quite frustrating at times. In participating here do you think you've learned better how to be more cognizant of those trouble spots?
 
5:57 AM
Please remove my last request. The question is edited and improved
 
1 message moved to SOCVR /dev/null, by request
 
@Catija maybe a bit more cognizant, but pretty sure I still would still fail audits. I think it just requires more careful, sustained attention than I’m willing to spend on it. Less careful attention is required here :)
 
6:24 AM
@Catija count me in, I'm a very casual user but definitely frustrated when I do visit
only my UTC+3 time zone tends to be inconvenient for chat with people in the US
 
7:01 AM
@VadimKotov these are spam and should be flagged as such, there's a meta post somewhere...
I notice most CV audits in advance, because they're clearly unrelated to the tag I'm reviewing. Partly due to that, I've only failed one, because I just skip anything where I'm not familiar with the subject matter (though I click through to the question to get the correct answer, out of curiosity). And I maintain I was right about the one I failed.
Every single suggested edit audit is hilariously obvious, which I think contributes to much lower accuracy in that queue (people auto-approve almost anything that isn't obviously wrong)
@Catija happy to give feedback or beta test, though not a super long-time user myself
 
@RyanM people get really upset about how easy those audits are: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/287670/…
 
@rene I would differentiate my argument from that slightly in that unless people are using a script that checks for audits, you can't mindlessly review without at least clicking through to check for audits...except in the suggested edit queue, where you just have to check if the edit is complete gibberish, because unlike the other queues, none of the audits are real should-be-rejected content that an actual human wrote.
 
7:17 AM
agree on that
 
7:48 AM
@RyanM Thanks! Got it
 
8:09 AM
@JonClements We settle on 20:00 UTC on Thursday or Friday next week.
 
8:50 AM
@Catija ... but whatever you are doing, getting us back the keyboard shortcuts for the close dialog is probably more important
 
9:01 AM
@tripleee was that a native feature? I have always used userscripts for that.
 
9:17 AM
Got one of the answers on this react-native Question in review. The answers are very similar. If one is not NAA, when the other also shouldn't be, if I understand it correctly.. ?
 
@GuilhermeNascimento it smells quite a bit of spam, coming in here to do nothing but promote your own stuff...
Especially when doing that simultaneously in four rooms across the network...
 
@Adriaan I don't gain anything from this add-on, it is open source and it was a great effort to create a tool for users of the site. If you don't know how to recognize an open-source project then we are "lost".
 
and yet, posting it to four rooms at the same time is ... not nice
 
@GuilhermeNascimento still, the fact that you just plop in and promote your own project unasked, across multiple rooms makes it spam IMO, regardless of how good the intentions. Whether or not I can recognise open-source projects or not is irrelevant to the action.
 
That your chat message doesn't say what the script does also speaks against you
 
9:27 AM
@GuilhermeNascimento The network doesn't like/accept unsolicited promotion anywhere. Answers that do that are deleted as spam, unless it's relevant to the Question, meaning that someone asked for a solution. They're certainly always removed if it's done in succession. It doesn't matter if it's free, open or propitiatory. Your script doesn't seem to be requested by anyone here and it doesn't seem to be particularly helpful for the work people do here either.
5
 
9:57 AM
 
10:11 AM
@Adriaan Nah. Trivial error and resolution.
 
@DavidBuck What was the policy on code in images? NAA?
 
Alpha Request Generator update: version 1.9.0.0 (GitHub) (install). Resolve issues due to SE's CV/CF dialog changes; change quick substitutions to handle new primary close reason wording (now: a = "Server Fault", c = "Needs Details or Clarity" add f = "Needs More Focus"); and add SD Report/NATO checkboxes to request dialog and CV/CF dialog.
5
 
@Scratte Yes. A picture of an apple isn't an apple.
 
@DavidBuck That's not a picture of an apple. You're referring to a link to an apple somewhere else :)
But the code is right there in the Answer :D
 
@Scratte Works both ways as far as I can see. Still code via a link. Can't cut and paste it.
 
10:20 AM
But I'm assuming you're yet to get a declined flag on a image then? :)
 
@Scratte Just flag it as R/A...
 
@Makyen Credit to @Shree for getting the SD Report/NATO checkboxes on the request dialog rolling. Sorry for the long delay in getting it merged.
 
@Makyen Great and thanks for checkboxs. It's cool.
 
@Shree np. I really should have gotten it merged and integrated quite some time ago. Life just kept getting in the way, and when it didn't, I procrastinated too much. :-;
 
10:39 AM
@Scratte I don't believe I've been declined on an image only code NAA
 
@DavidBuck Thank you. It's not R/A anymore, in case you flagged it.
 
 
1 hour later…
12:03 PM
@rene Great.. thank you. Let's do Thursday then :)
 
@JonClements Thursday it is.
 
Gah... been using whatsapp too much recently - was wondering where the thumbs up thingy had gone for a second :)
 
@JonClements you setup the venue?
 
Sure
 
@JonClements That's a good method to contact some elephants for Trine as well ... Shall I send you the number via steam?
 
12:07 PM
@JonClements 👍
 
@Adriaan you can if you want - sure :)
@rene I'm going to assume that's a thumb up but it's just my browser that's displaying it as a block :)
 
Maybe it is time to move away from IE6 ...
 
@rene there's nothing wrong with a bit of nostalgia
but I suppose I should given netscape navigator a go...
 
If that is the start of your upgrade path you're in for a nice journey ...
 
can't rush these things...
 
12:17 PM
You still have a long way to go. It's a good thing you've set out on the journey.
 
This is giving off a spam vibe. Second opinions? stackoverflow.com/questions/61248348/…
 
@Nkosi too unclear for me; I'd say close and delete
 
was going to vote unclear but wanted to ask about it being potential spam first.
 
@Nkosi I might see abusive, as it reads as random gibberish, but not really spam due to the lack of advertising something (either products, or services through email/phone)
 
gotchya
 
1:46 PM
 
If someone copy-paste's a comment from the php manual into an answer and doesn't write the attribution, is this a "punishable" offense?
 
@mickmackusa I think it's an editable offense. Ask them to cite the source.
 
Yep. Done.
 
You can check to see if they do it. If you flag it later you still may get your flag declined, because it can be fixed by the community.
 
 
1 hour later…
3:01 PM
 
@bad_coder All that requires is one mod flag.
 
@S.S.Anne mod flagged according to your indication.
@Scratte hi we're sitting on the same channels :)
 
3:19 PM
@bad_coder I always try to be nuisance :)
 
@Scratte hahahaha that's great man :)
 
3:33 PM
@ChrisP hi, this chat room is about closing questions, and specifically only about the Stack Overflow site; we don't moderate other sites. We also don't allow solicitation or action requests for posts where you are involved with the post you link to.
@ChrisP check out our FAQ for more info. In general, though, it's not recommended to join random rooms and advertise your questions on any network.
 
Zoe
@DavidBuck has an edit that needs review
 
@Zoe the review is completed
 
3:56 PM
I keep getting the "Oops! Something Bad Happened!" when refreshing my flag-list :(
 
@Scratte yeah... seems stuff flag/etc... related is lagging/going oops at the moment... it'll pass...
 
Love it when I see a question whose body starts out with "bad question, I know"...
 
4:35 PM
@TylerH It looks like someone copied the external code into the question - isn't that helpful?
I see your note about licensing, but that is probably thin pickings compared to the utility of having the code in the question
 
4:56 PM
@halfer It's a question of what's appropriate form multiple points of view. Licensing is actually important. If we don't respect the licensing of things which are posted elsewhere, then we can't reasonably expect other people to respect the licensing we apply to the content here, or any of the content we create elsewhere. It is inappropriate for us to be violating other people's licenses or recommending that others do so, just so that we have a "good" question.
 
@Makyen Alright, I appreciate the second opinion. Is this SO CVR policy, or is it on Meta?
I haven't heard about this before, and I would like to make sure we're not operating a shadow policy here.
I am sure I've made this sort of edit many times, and I would not treat it as legally onerous. The OP would not be bound by the licensing since they did not post it, and would be entitled to make an edit to remove it, in the unlikely event they did not want to be bound by the license.
 
@halfer It's on Meta in a few places, including: Pasting Fiddle snippet into original question as an edit
 
All new contributions are licensed under CC-by-SA 4.0. It's illegal to license content under any license if the author has not agreed. SO doesn't want any legal trouble, so it's also against the rules here.
 
Fair enough - how odd that this rule passed me by! Thanks for the info.
 
Of course in most cases the author doesn't actually care and they'll have to file a DMCA takedown if they want it removed.
 
5:04 PM
@halfer But, then you've given false information to the people reading the post. The site claims that all user-content is licensed under CC BY-SA. If someone puts content into a post for which they don't have the right to grant such a license, then they are doing a disservice to everyone who reads the post in the future and might want to copy from it. The reader shouldn't have to see the edit history and individually verify with each editor that the editor had the right to add the content.
 
@S.S.Anne In this case the author of the external link and the author of the question pointing to the link are the same person, so they can just edit their question, unless I've misunderstood what you're saying.
@Makyen I see your point, although I can't get all that enthusiastic about it ;-). I bet a license disagreement of this kind has happened exactly zero times on Stack Overflow so far.
But, the policy is set out on Meta, so I will abide by it :=)
 
OK. Thanks.
@halfer Just FYI: Here's the other Meta post I have bookmarked for this issue: Edits that add OP's code from 3rd party site where the license is unavailable
 
Zoe
5:22 PM
Is the flag summary broken for anyone else?
 
@Makyen Many thanks, will have a read
 
Zoe
wee
 
@Zoe apparently SQL isn't happy at the moment... it's being looked at...
 
Zoe
Seems to be limited to SO at least (no repro on meta.SE)
 
5:23 PM
Yeah, I got a crash just now
 
@Zoe Interesting... I'm not experiencing a problem....
 
But I refreshed it a few mins ago, and it was fine - I assume a page fragment was retrieved from an HTML cache
 
Zoe
now it's fine again xd
 
@Zoe don't jinx it!
 
Zoe
Doesn't that mean, by that logic, that we can hope it stops working, so it won't?
 
5:29 PM
it'll probably be taken as a bluff and then stop working again just to throw logic in our faces...
 
I had that issue a few minutes ago. It went away after I refreshed.
 
@halfer for boilerplate or code that's only a few lines, licensing isn't an issue because you're not putting anything on SO that's substantive or novel that would be worth trying to enforce an IP claim on. But in the case of substantive code, the stuff mentioned here already by Makyen, et al applies.
However, there's an ancillary concern with that, too: we don't wanna do all of OP's legwork for them to make the question on-topic. Because OP didn't do it, they're not likely to put in any additional effort like responding to questions/comments, accepting/upvoting helpful answers, etc.
For the same reason we don't translate OP's posts from another language, we also shouldn't bend over backward to help them by editing their off-topic post to be on-topic when it's their responsibility. I personally apply this standard much more stringently to debugging questions than to more broad or generic questions.
In other words, if you're gonna ask for help with specific code that's not super likely to help hundreds or thousands of others, I'm for sure gonna want you to follow the site's rules and make your question on-topic. If you're asking a general question that's easily helpful for others and will be for years to come, I'm a little more forgiving on that front...
 
5:57 PM
Good thoughts, I see where you are coming from.
@TylerH It looks like some of the Meta answers are saying that copying code from, say, Pastebin to Stack Overflow is OK, because it is CC-BY-SA already. But that's pretty onerous, since the few diligent editors who want to make this edit are surely not going to check for license compatibility.
 
@halfer It is onerous which is why the default position is 'don't do it'. Of course, if you copy from a location with CC by-SA, you should give attribution anyway (perhaps in the edit description)
just in case OP lied and linked to code that wasn't actually theirs
 
Phew and eek
Well-meaning site curators could tie themselves up with this stuff to such a degree that, eventually, they give up through boredom or exhaustion. However, I suppose on the plus side, requiring authors to move their code into the question means that curators have less work to do.
 
6:12 PM
@halfer yep :-)
 
This question was discussed on meta. It was edited and reopened. Can someone tell me why it's still not focused?
 
@Scratte It shows no effort and asks for a regexp that could potentially be large.
I wonder if there's a legitimately useful debugging question out there that has a hard-to-find solution.
 
@S.S.Anne There's nothing on the help pages about showing effort. It's a how-to question, not a debugging or a homework question. So I don't get it.
 
@Scratte The rules aren't entirely based on the help pages. What's on- and off-topic is a community consensus.
 
Right.. that last thing that you removed, that's what I thought.. it's just sad. It makes me wonder if any of this is worth it. When it's impossible to know the rules, one can't win
 
6:23 PM
People find it extremely rude when people just ask for code or regexps without showing any effort. It's not a how to question, it's just a how to wrapper around a "gimme teh codez".
See also the answer by the OP: meta.stackoverflow.com/a/396689/10795151 "Because it is not useful to anyone else. We are not here to help just one person with a requirements list. We are here to help people with a clear problem description and answers that other people with similar problems can apply to their code."
 
Funny, I find it much more useful than all the debugging Questions.
 
I has originally intended to post that comment about debugging a half hour earlier but I'm in a place where the cell signal is bad.
 
I spent an hour trying out different ways of doing it. What annoyed me was the without an idea there's noway to get started. I only did about two other variations.
 
I bet that the question could be on-topic if it asked how to parse and sort in one go.
and it might've added a regex that did one half and another that did the other half
Also the issue with the debugging questions not getting closed is that people don't care enough to close them. They just leave it around, not wanting to deal with another crappy question, and then that question gets answered.
 
I'm not posting a Question on SO.. this entire thing has scared me more than I was before. It so downvoted that they will never come back from it. Unfortunately I can't edit this Question either, because adding code would not be "author's intent"
 
6:32 PM
@Scratte It all depends on the question. Give me an example question and what you would post, maybe I could give you some insight.
My questions were bad before I asked this: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/382882/…
lovely advice
 
@S.S.Anne I posted one. It was so well researched that it was too long, too boring. No comments and no answers. But it did get a few strange downvotes, so it's gone now.
 
Give me a link. Maybe I can take a look.
 
There's nothing to salvage on it, but sure: stackoverflow.com/questions/60160670/…
There's also no real application for it. Nobody runs a live version patching in stuff.
 
@Scratte That looks fine to me - and it got +4. Even if some of those votes are in response to your commentary below it about voting, it still does not look like a bad question (or a badly received one).
 
@Scratte Just FYI, you're not gonna have good luck hiding questions from targeted/revenge downvoting. Users will just downvote your other posts.
 
6:45 PM
I would recommend undeleting that - if you are getting retaliation votes then don't worry about it.
 
^
 
@TylerH I have more than enough Answers to take those hits. Questions are hard, Answers are easy.
 
When I get revenge DVs, I take it as a sign that I am doing my curation thoroughly :=)
 
For example, pretty much every single one of my questions has 5+ downvotes over the years from revenge downvoters
 
@halfer I put on the comment on just before I removed it :)
 
6:48 PM
I think it's worth keeping as well, especially considering now question upvotes give +10 instead of +5
 
I don't care for the loss of reputation by removing it. I care that the Question will go down.
 
@Scratte Does it matter than you lose a bit of rep from revenge DVs?
 
@halfer Nope.. but the system will think I write bad Questions.
 
I assume with your rep score being what it is, you are most unlikely to hit into an automatic question ban or rate limiter
@Scratte If you mean that you will be automatically disallowed from asking questions, I do not think that would be the case.
 
I'm sure that the rate-limit is based on the amount of Questions being having a bad score. It doesn't care for the reputation of the user.
 
6:52 PM
The algorithm is not published, to prevent people gaming it, but you have to be pretty consistently "bad" to trigger rate limiters or automatic bans.
@Scratte Even if that were the case, and I personally doubt it - that question has +4 on it that will be seen by the algorithm
 
Actually the algorithm will probably already see it, because it's deleted :)
 
@Scratte The system looks at the total score, not just how many downvotes there are. Even in the worst case where the system does think you have too many bad questions, you will still be able to ask at least one new question every 6 months :-)
But also keep in mind that having this question deleted counts against you whereas before it was deleted, it counted in your favor as a positive-scored question
 
@TylerH Exactly.. I'm apply it to myself already. If I have a burning Questions in 5 months, maybe I will ask it and hope it doesn't go the same way as the parse-and-sort in one go :)
 
well, just know that a question with a score of +4/-2 doesn't in any way count against you for bans :-)
 
@halfer You're doing it wrong if you don't get any
 
7:00 PM
@TylerH It would not stay at +4/-2.. it would get more downvotes. The only real regret I have it not deleting it after the first one :)
 
@Scratte Sure, but you don't know that. And you're likely to get more upvotes during that time, too
 
The trick is to curate in the [android] tag where most of the terrible questions are from people with too little rep to revenge-downvote you :D
 
Deleting it prematurely only removes good content and prevents you from getting upvotes
 
(though I've been revenge-downvoted, I suspect, once)
@Scratte As not-a-10k-user, I'm curious what the question was
 
@TylerH I respectfully do not believe you. It has a total of 73 views. It's very low traffic.
@RyanM Java Questions about finding classes in a module when the module has been patched on startup.
 
7:06 PM
Sounds like an interesting question to me if it was well-defined...honestly +2 is better than most questions I've seen. But I'm gonna go out on a limb and say no one saw it because the [java] tag has all the problems of the [android] tag (in no small part because half the questions in [android] are also tagged [java]) and it's too flooded with crap for anyone to reasonably follow
if it got 4 upvotes that's pretty impressive for a high-traffic tag
 
@RyanM It has a lot of code. Ready to copy and paste and play with. But it also makes it long and boring.
I do very often see android stuff in review. I expect there is a lot of stuff in it.
 
If you want to know how much stuff there is...I have over 2000 close-vote reviews, and nearly every single one is in the android tag
almost every review I do is a vote to close, maybe 1 or 2 leave-opens a day (I skip extensively)
 
I only review stuff I know, so I also skip a lot :) All the android stuff :D
 
@Scratte Yeah, but avenging upvotes are a thing too
 
my kingdom for the ability to exclude tags from review, not just include...
 
7:12 PM
@RyanM Yeah, definitely something I'm going to mention if I get a call to discuss the review queue UI
along with the ability to upvote and downvote questions from the close/reopen queues.
 
@TylerH It got the upvotes while it was on the front page.. It got the downvotes while it was not. There is a trend there :) And I'm not the type to edit something just to bump it.
 
as well as a button to edit a post from the queue without removing it from the queue.
 
@RyanM That would be nice. But I'm in it for the NAA :D They come in all flavours.
 
@RyanM This is a screenshot of the Q under discussion: imgur.com/a/crJACm5 . It's scored +4/-2, so +2 overall.
 
I know nothing about Firebase. I don't know if they're tagged correctly, I don't know if they're dupes, I don't know if they're obviously silly questions, I just really don't want to see them. Although I'll admit some are so obviously wrong that I still close-vote them...
Oh man that's a great question that I totally don't understand because I don't know desktop Java...just Android :-p
 
7:18 PM
@RyanM lol!.. Loving the "totally don't understand" :)
 
@Scratte I'd also offer up that upvotes are worth 5x downvotes in terms of rep
we're still stuck on Java 7-ish on Android :-(
really it's somewhere between 7 and 8 because R8 is a magical tool that makes a lot of Java 8 stuff work on Java 7
 
@RyanM Like streams? Java 9 broke a lot of stuff..
 
lambdas then?
 
developer.android.com/studio/write/java8-support discusses most of it, but there are some backports that aren't discussed in there...if I'm feeling especially motivated one of these days I may take a stab at updating that page with more info
Yep, lambdas are backported. Things that are missing are stuff like Objects methods, which I think are all backported at this point...
 
7:30 PM
@Scratte I'm not sure if the algorithm takes into account that the answer was your own, but we've been informed on Meta that the worst thing you can do wrt. the question ban is delete a question which has been answered. At a minimum, I'd suggest undeleting the question, then separately deleting the answer, waiting a while, then deleting the question.
 
But also it's certainly discouraged to delete good questions
 
@Makyen I did think of that. I had to un-accept my answer to delete it :) But it's fine as it is. This way it will surely not attract answers from others.
 
Not going to do this here, but I've flagged a question to mods when someone deleted a question that I've answered, and it was reopened
 
@RyanM That's different. I would not have done it if someone else had answered it. Though that has happened to some of my own answers.
 
I agree that it's different for other people's answers, because it's much more of a selfish move in that case
also flag 'em when people do that, that's really terrible behavior
unfortunately I don't always notice
 
7:36 PM
@Scratte Don't delete it, let it gather some revenge votes, who cares, you will not get any kind of answer ban, if you would just post on meta and people will help you out. Take example from the flower.. stackoverflow.com/questions/24532106/…, sure maybe not the best question, but trust me most of those dv are revenge stuff.
 
@RyanM I got my answer deleted once like that.. and then the poster reposted their Question in a new Question.
 
@Scratte flag flag flag
 
@RyanM I was very young back then. I'm sure the Question was even off-topic.
 
fair enough
 
it's almost better to have a few questions that people can revenge dv on, best is like 4 or 5 (if they vote on all it will be reversed ;), this way you avoid votes on answers that really mess up SO..
 
7:39 PM
yeah, I have a small backlog of questions to write and self-answer...
It's currently two-ish.
one is an Android-specific guide to NullPointerExceptions, I'm just putting it off because it's looooonnnggggggg.
 
@PetterFriberg Why is downvotes on answers worse?
 
Because it gives wrong information to future users..
 
@PetterFriberg Ahh.. I'm not worried. Most of them don't compete with other answers anyway. None of them are great.
 
when you find a question on SO you don't care about score on question, but you do care about score on answers... hence if there are revenge votes in the middle it mess everything up
 
@PetterFriberg I've seen upvoted answers that were just pain wrong :) Maybe people are quick to read, but when I search for answers I go though the entire thread. But if the score on Questions are irrelevant, when why do we have them?
 
7:46 PM
so people get rep? :), I don't think google care much but I'm not sure
 
Question discovery, incentivizes good questions, expedites removal of bad questions
I know it helps me find dupe targets
 
I got some old questions at -3 (when I was new at SO...) but who cares, it's nice to keep them as history :)
it was 0... but slowly overtime close voting, deleting voting and leaving comments on high rep link only answers it brought it down... well true it's not the best question...
 
e.g., this is at +2/-2 right now: stackoverflow.com/questions/60765370/… ... at least one was probably some reviewer who saw the original form of it without the context of the self-answer and added specifics and note that it's a self-answered FAQ-style question, in which case it would kind of look like a crappy question
but the self-answer is at +4 so I'm happy, plus I'm still net 16 rep on the question
yeah looking at the history, it did, in fact, go through a close-vote review (that didn't go anywhere) so I suspect that's what happened. I edited it and the downvotes stopped.
 
@RyanM I like the fotnote.. but I got confused since the "Linked" sidebar seems to be missing ;)
 
I wanted to ask the questions when the library is in alpha before other people do, then it's easier to find high-quality dupe targets without a bunch of baggage. Also, I'd be lying if I said I didn't want the rep.
see also the "what are the new features of C++17" question that most people accept is a good question if and only if you self-answer it
 
8:03 PM
I only really have two burning Questions on my mind. One will never be answered, since it's about an even lower trafficked subset of Java, and I can't answer it myself. So I don't see the point. The other requires about 3 days of intense research that will result in me not having the question anymore.. except for why my command prompt is not listening to me, and I don't think SO want's to know about that :)
 
@Scratte this is my canonical example of a highly upvoted wrong answer: stackoverflow.com/a/31368367/208273
the recycler.removeViewAt(position); is totally unnecessary, undefined behavior, and I'm frankly shocked that it works at all - trying to manage RecyclerView's children yourself is playing with fire
the answer below it that's not the accepted one is far better and actually correct
I've been somewhat tempted to just remove the incorrect line, but IDK if that's in violation of guidelines to not change the intent of answers...
 
@RyanM It's funny how code that one doesn't work with can look like it does anything one wants it to. This is the reason I always Skip stuff in review if I don't understand it. I don't think you can remove code, or add any.
 
8:32 PM
@RyanM There has been some discussion in the past about making edits to popular but old and wrong posts. I don't remember where Meta left off on that, though.
 
9:15 PM
 
9:59 PM
Hey, y'all. :) Have you seen an uptick in people relying on the question title for their question rather than including the important info in the body of the question? I've got a couple of mods on smaller sites mentioning it and was curious if that was the case here. I understand it may be somewhat difficult to see since so many questions go through the queues.
 
@Catija Not really. I have always seen this as a problem. What is worse, more often people ignore the title and just put pleas for help in there instead. Then there is no way to edit it, because me as an editor, I must come up with a good title. e.g title. "Hello everyone. I am having a problem with this code, can you help plz?" and then the body is just a dump of code.
 
That has always been here. They post the question in the title, and sometimes images of code in the body.
 
Yeah. definitely understand that it's always existed. :)
 
Over what time period? I'm not sure I've seen enough to have a good signal for if they've increased. I've certainly seen a few lately, but the thing @Dharman described where the title contains no information whatsoever (or is related to the feature they're trying to build rather than the problem they encountered building it) is far more common.
 
10:09 PM
 
We always had this problem and we always will. Whether it is the whole body in the title or lack of any good title, the problem of low quality is there. The real problem is that these questions are never closed and never deleted. The best outcome would be if they were edited into shape before answers arrived, but people only care about reputation and they rarely polish up the question.
Maybe it is just PHP tag, maybe other tags are better, but for me the quality of questions and answers in PHP tag is appalling.
 
The question I've been asked is whether the phrasing of the new ask page exacerbates the problem.
 
I'm not sure everyone only care for reputation. I was very reluctant to edit a post in the beginning. I still am if it involves real changes. They could be rejected.
 
I doubt it. The new question wizard helped from what I was able to observe, but this is not a scientific finding. I have no other proof than observation, but I really think question wizard was an improvement.
 
10:12 PM
I think the driving factor for almost all askers is to get their question answered. Many people are stuck at work or with a school assignment and their productivity relies on getting an answer. The rep is unimportant.
Ah, I see. you think answerers should fix the questions before writing the answer.
 
This is a very good description of what the title should be. The title must describe the problem and ideally should be in a form of a question.
@Catija Yes
 
a big problem of poor title (and body) is the lack of knowledge of English. There should be a hint to use an online translator to place the post
 
@Catija Honestly.. it's a little silly. The phrasing as opposed to asking the Question to oneself? :)
 
@Vickel As long as you can paint a picture with some random English words, we can edit it to have proper spelling and grammar.
 
I edit and fix the titles on questions that I answer, but I rarely do otherwise unless I see something trivially fixable or if it affects my voting.
 
10:16 PM
Waffles™
 
@RyanM That's because it is too overwhelming for us. Too many questions are in need of editing
 
@Makyen Sorry. :(
 
@Dharman yes, but online translators are so accurate now, it would help a lot to reduce nearly unreadable post, see e.g. the tag
 
@Catija np. Thanks. It's way easier when you can edit after more than 2 minutes. :-)
 
@Vickel I kind of disagree, the mangled titles and bodies are mostly fixable, because I can usually understand them. The problem is people who make no attempt at writing something that describes the problem. That could be because their English isn't good enough to even make an attempt, but I wonder if they'd also struggle to understand an English solution in that case.
@Makyen I was about to say I'm envious of this magical power :D
 
10:18 PM
@RyanM you can use the same translator to read comments/answers
 
M--
@mkrieger1 I don't this request is valid anymore, since OP deleted the other thread: chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/41570?m=49105664 cc:@Makyen
 
@Dharman It doesn't work well for low-reputation users. If I edit a post, I have to wait. Sometimes it takes a few hours, sometimes 16 hours. When I've prepared an Answer, I don't want to just go to sleep or miss it when the edit goes through. Because then my answer quickly becomes invalid due to someone else answering.
 
@Dharman The experience I've had on other sites is that in many (most?) cases the only person who can include the needed info is the asker themselves. People answering... just... they can make an educated guess and sometimes (often?) they may be correct... but when they're wrong, it can be really frustrating to the asker and to people finding the question later on. The best practice from my PoV is that a question shouldn't be answered until it's unambiguous what help is needed.
 
@RyanM Completely agree with this statement. They can, of course, try to translate the answers too and if they pretend to know English, like I do, then it is their responsibility to understand and respond.
 
That said, I've definitely seen stuff that was just completely unintelligible due to lack of English proficiency. It's by far the minority, even among clearly-not-fluent posters, but it's there. Translators would probably help in those cases.
 
M--
10:20 PM
@halfer seems OP edited their question adding more details: chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/41570?m=49108430 is this still valid? cc:@Makyen
 
@Vickel I'm sort of biased. English Language Learners is one of my top sites, so editing titles and question bodies to improve English is something I did constantly when I was using that site. I'd rather people feel welcomed to ask, regardless their level of fluency or ability to use a translator, and help them improve the question. :)
 
@mkrieger1 It looks like the user deleted the question you felt this should be a duplicate of. Do you still feel this question should be closed?
 
@Scratte In case of <2k users they can just suggest an edit and write an answer either way. I am not saying you can't post the answer before editing question. I often first answer and then immediately edit the question. All I am saying is that we should not forget about the quality of the question when answering.
 
@Dharman I can't do that. People here hate it when answers come on bad Questions.
 
@M-- the post appears to have been closed and reopened in the intervening period (both times by halfer, among others), that should presumably thus be removed since it was closed after the request
@Scratte bad questions, yes. Questions that just need some rephrasing, less so
 
10:22 PM
@Scratte *unless there is a good suggested edit and the question is answerable.
 
@Dharman I edit in the stuff that was missing, but is in comments. Then I fix other stuff. But really, I hate the waiting, so I stopped doing it.
 
@Catija I understand this is a sensitive issue, because you don't want to say "your English sucks, try a translator", that's not welcoming
 
M--
@RyanM right, I didn't check the timeline. Thanks.
 
@RyanM Yes, that's the conclusion I came to too. I've added it to the manual list I'll archive the next time I run the script. @M-- @halfer
 
If the question is "how do I make my local music app stream music from a server?", then that should not be answered, it's way too broad. If the question is poorly formatted but otherwise fine, then it's fine, and complaining about that seems unreasonable.
 
10:25 PM
@RyanM I'm a pragmatic person. If I can see that someone just doesn't know how to ask, I will ask for clarification in comments, until I know what they're actually asking. But it all needs to be edited in.
 
@Scratte Is requesting review of suggested edits a thing? I've been stuck here before, too... I only have 125 rep because of suggesting edits (and the association bonus).
 
@Catija What do you mean by "requesting review of suggested edits"?
 
... cutting the line. :D Saying "hey, I suggested an edit here, can someone review it for me?"
 
No, I don't think it is. I make my edit and then I wait for the bubble to come.
 
@Catija I think the rules of this room forbid asking our review of anything from which you could have any benefit personally.
 
10:30 PM
You're allowed to request reviews of other people's edits if there's a reason to believe the wrong action would otherwise occur
the FAQ's example is "Removes plagiarism, has reject vote"
 
Oh, I didn't mean here. :P
 
@Catija If you mean in this room, then no, that's something that is explicitly not permitted. You are allowed to request review of something where you're not involved, but being the person who edited it is considered involved. It's a situation which has been discussed in a room meeting and the decision was not to permit such requests, even when there's a good moderation based reason for the edit (e.g. removing plagiarism from tag wikis).
ninja'd :-) ... again :-)
 
oh, I mean I'd probably review suggestions if there were a dedicated not-here place to review suggestions from people who are dedicated to doing it properly
 
@Catija "Be specific and imagine your are reading this question to someone out loud"
 
@Vickel This is called rubber-ducking.
 
10:34 PM
Note that I personally have mixed feelings about the above specific case, and prior to the existence of the specific rule did once ask that a tag wiki edit I made removing plagiarism be reviewed (after it had one reject).
 
@Catija I don't know about other rooms, but I think it's generally a bad idea. What if one person make a bad edit and asks someone else to approve it? If that someone else doesn't like bad edits, it's not a good situation :D
@Vickel It works.. :)
 
@Dharman we know that, but a lot of 1 rep no badge users don't :)
I've seen so many new questions by 1 rep no badge users lately, which shows they never took the tour
 
@RyanM This, I think, is a key point... it has to be people who know what they're doing or want to learn how to improve editing behavior. But that's transient. Many of those people will eventually hit 2k and then there's no need for it any more.
You'd need a constant influx of new editors.
... or someone who's stuck at the max 1k editing rep and still has to suggest despite that. (don't get me started on the idiocy of tying privs to rep.)
 
@Catija I have many thoughts along those ("tying privs to rep") lines but suspect I'd be preaching to the choir :-p
 
@Catija At least one can always bounty away an undesired privilege :)
 
10:41 PM
@Scratte I'm not sure people not desiring the privileges is the problem here :-p
 
@Scratte Are you aware that there's a series of badges for editing questions within 12 hours of having answered the question? Improving the questions which you answer is certainly encouraged, as is going back and revisiting questions you've answered and upvoting other good answers (for which there's another badge, which is one of the ones considered part of each moderator candidate's "score").
I agree, it is far easier to do that once you have 2k rep, but not having 2k rep doesn't mean you shouldn't edit.
 
@Makyen It's far harder to do it once you hit 500 edits. :P
 
:)
 
@Makyen I am aware of it. It's not really a good incentive for me to stay awake until four in the morning just waiting for my edit making a Question really nice to be approved, and then answer with my well prepared Answer so I don't look like I gave a "me too" answer.. ;)
 
@Scratte Well, you could just post your answer including a brief indication of how you understood the question. Alternately, you could cheat and post you answer, then delete it and undelete it, if the edit goes through. :;
 
10:46 PM
@Makyen Uhh, the question is not great, but OK I think. I wouldn't want to cv-pls it. It was just that they had literally asked the same question before, but cleaned up themselves now.
 
@mkrieger1 Am I correct in understanding that I should move that cv-pls request out of the room?
 
@Makyen I can't post it before the edit is approved, as there is no guarantee that it will be. And I don't play dirty. I've seen others do it and I really don't like it.
 
Does it only count when the edit is approved?
Alternately, worst case you've answered a question and don't get a point toward the badge
since you also have to get an upvote on the answer for the badge
 
I remember someone one time just posting an answer that read "Placeholder answer in case the question gets closed" and then deleting it.
 
@Scratte I don't like the idea of intentionally posting, deleting and then undeleting either, see ":;", but it is possible.
 
10:51 PM
@RyanM No, if the edit doesn't get approved, I've answered a bad Question :)
 
@Makyen Yes, please. Do they not automatically age away?
 
@Catija That is inappropriate, IMO, but I've certainly heard of it happening from multiple people, but haven't seen it myself.
 
@RyanM Yes, if the edit is rejected, it's not an edit :D
 
Or what happens in general if a question ends up not being closed after a cv-pls?
 
@Scratte oh I meant for the "within 12 hours" thing
 
10:53 PM
@mkrieger1 They do, but people also go through the request backlog, so it's better to remove it so they don't spend time on it.
 
@Catija I'll be sure to always keep a few flags left, in case I ever see that
 
@mkrieger1 cv-pls requests which are not completed within 3 days are archived. del-pls request which are not completed within 7 days are archived. Both happen the next time one of the ROs runs the archiver after that amount of time has expired.
1 message moved to SOCVR /dev/null, by request
 
@RyanM It's the same, I think. I'd imagine it counts from the edit approval. Then there's 12 hours to post an answer.
 
@Scratte How many flags do you have available at the moment?
 
@Dharman a million = 49 left :) I didn't flag a lot today
 
10:56 PM
Then I don't think you need to save your flags... :D
 
... A million?
I think that requires special powers.
 
@Catija That's an abuse. I need to flag this. :D
Even I have 68 flags remaining. Today Netflix wins.
 
@Dharman You spend more on a netflix day than I do on a busy day :D
 
@RyanM Did not know. Thanks for the information and the link
 
10:59 PM
no problem!
 
@Scratte Yeah, a little bit is from idle flagging. During breaks, I also scroll through bot.dharman.net/reports.php
 
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