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12:00 AM
@RyanM Ugh, kinda. It also asks what the name of it is...
And that's what the answers answer...
So even if I fix the question to be on-topic, I have to delete all the answers...
 
@CodyGray This is for people who are trying to fix their post due to a Question ban. They're not allowed to actually change them.
 
No, and they shouldn't be, for a whole bunch of reasons.
 
Yeah, it's not a great question...arguably, knowing the glyph's name helps you find it to put it on the page....and at least one of the links does contain embed code.
 
My experiment with a sock-puppet yielded mixed results. On one hand I got an answer and I was treated like any other user (i.e. no downvotes because of hate for me) but on the other hand it still got closed as "Asking for recommendations". Thanks to Scratte it got reopened but I don't know the state it is at now. (if anyone remembers my sock-puppet, please return to lost&found).
 
@CodyGray That doesn't even make sense. If they're not allowed to fix it, then stop pretending they can. Just tell them plain: Don't try to fix your old post.
 
12:02 AM
Was it asking for recommendations? Or was that another stupid closure from folks who thought that you should solve the problem yourself?
@Scratte Fixing your old posts is different from throwing them away and asking something completely different.
 
@CodyGray That was just another closure by a mod that closes from review queue.
 
@Dharman You want me to find it? :) It got reopened because I went about it very differently than normal.
 
If you can find in less than a minute sure, but don't waste too much time on it
 
Imagine that I have some bananas. I originally provided a recipe for a banana smoothie. That recipe got downvoted because I included kale in it, and nobody wants kale in their damn smoothies. So, I am encouraged to modify the recipe to remove the kale and add in vanilla ice cream. That's a good edit. On the other hand, I'm not allowed to just change it to a recipe for french onion soup, which doesn't even include bananas.
 
I imagine bananas in a french onion soup would taste good
 
12:05 AM
French banana soup?
 
@CodyGray Great question. Not really. 1) It seems to be something only programmers would care about. 2) Some programmers found it useful, judging by the upvotes. There are several useful answers as well (the fact they were mostly off-site links did throw me off). 3) By the time I looked at it, it had been seen, but not closed by several programmers who are not shy about closing things. I suppose none of these are relevant factors when judging if a question is about programming?
 
@cigien OK... #2 is very dangerous. Google "boat programming" (meta.stackexchange.com/a/14486)
Quite honestly, no. None of those indirect assessments are at all convincing ways to say that a question is about programming.
 
@CodyGray Why not?
 
In keeping with our theme, that's like saying that something is a banana because a couple of monkeys ate it.
@Scratte French onion soup has nothing to do with a banana smoothie, which was the original thrust of your question.
 
Rubber duck debugging would be quite good on a boat? Or have I missed this particular boat?
 
12:09 AM
@CodyGray But it doesn't matter. If no one answered it.. then no one wanted banana.
 
I think rubber ducks are more at home in a bathtub than on the high seas.
But maybe I've underestimated your particular ducky.
@Scratte Then the question is unwanted and inappropriate for Stack Overflow, and it should be removed (read: deleted).
If you want to submit a new recipe for something else, then go ahead.
 
@AdrianMole Were you thinking about the inverted boat instead, i.e. bathtub?
 
Bathtubs, boats, high seas ... just a matter of scale.
 
@CodyGray That's what I do not agree with. Why is it important to have a deleted one? If it can be changed into something good?
 
It's not what the question is about.
You aren't allowed to completely change the topic of a question.
Think about Git repositories.
 
12:11 AM
@CodyGray I do not agree with that. If it originally was useless, there's no point in enforcing it to keep being useless.
 
If you want to do something different, you start over. It's a simple concept.
You of all people should understand this, imagining questions as you do as special entities of their own, deserving to be capitalized.
If it originally was useless, and you cannot make it useful without completely changing it into something else, then delete it.
You should not go from asking a question about writing a bot in Python to a question about a template syntax error in C++.
 
@CodyGray That was very nice, thanks :)
 
@CodyGray I understand what you say. I do not agree at all.
 
That's a new question.
 
If the system wants me to fix all my downvoted and closed Questions, then I can't do it when I'm not allowed to change them.
 
12:13 AM
I do not know why you want to try and turn a pig into an ox. Just make a new animal.
The system wants you to make the normal kinds of edits that you'd make to a closed question in order to get it reopened.
 
@CodyGray I'm not allowed to make a new animal. I've been told no new Questions. Fix your old ones.
 
There's nothing special about the cases where you're question banned.
Yeah, you've made a bunch of crappy animals. You need to fix those and make them into decent animals before you go making new animals.
 
Anyway: One more reason why it's really a bad idea to post a Question on Stack Overflow for me. I will not be allowed to fix problems with my posts. I'll risk them getting closed not because they do not follow the guideline, but because users use close votes for I do not like this..
 
@CodyGray Ok, it's not a programming question. Is asking the name of something off-topic? How about if the OP knew the name, but asked how to pronounce it, is that on-topic? I'm serious.
 
@cigien If it's related to programming, yes. If not, no. See above.
@Scratte But... you are allowed. You just have to be fixing the problems, not wallpapering over them with an entirely new question.
 
12:17 AM
@Scratte You are allowed to fix salvageable posts. If you post something unsalvageable, then you aren't allowed to fix it, because it can't be fixed.
 
@CodyGray Ok, I think I get it. I thought html icons were programming related. My bad.
 
You are allowed to ask n bad questions, where n is based on the quality of your other questions, with an attempt at fixing problems with each of them. You are not allowed to ask n * 2 by editing the questions into different questions entirely.
 
@cigien Apropos the earlier discussion about close reasons given in here... I don't think it is necessary essential that the person use the exact same close reason in here as they clicked themselves. As others have mentioned, they might have misclicked or changed their mind. However, it is critical to me that anyone posting a request for closure in here give an actual, legitimate close reason, and that they be accountable to their peers for that reason.
If it's decided that that is an inappropriate reason for the question to be closed, then the request should be binned.
 
Would this be programming related? stackoverflow.com/questions/65099937/…
 
12:19 AM
@CodyGray I have to. I want to ask HowTo Questions. Then someone tells me to post an minimal reproducible example.. stack isn't a help desk. what have you tried. post your code.
 
Each person is, of course, separately accountable for each vote that they cast on the main site, just as they are accountable for what they request in here.
@Dharman It does not look like it to me.
@Scratte You are conflating two very different things.
 
But it links to a highly active question
 
Some people misunderstand the closure reasons and abuse their close-vote reasons. That doesn't justify abusing the system to completely change a banana smoothie into french onion soup.
@Dharman What does that matter?
 
Speaking of binning requests for that reason, can this request be binned? The given reason seems clearly invalid, 2 people in the room have objected, and the poster has not responded to requests to clarify how the reason applies or why the post should otherwise be closed.
 
12:21 AM
1 message moved to SOCVR /dev/null (because the indicated close reason does not apply to that question)
 
FWIW I already found it myself but I can't share a link to it here for obvious reasons
 
@RyanM Yes. If a RO isn't around, I'm happy to bin such requests.
 
@CodyGray No.. I'm not. This is the Question asking experince. So now I have to provide code for my closed and downvotes HowTo Quesiton. Which I cannot. But I do have another one which is a debugging one. I can post my code for that.
 
I'm clearly going to have to start being a bit more complain-y when it comes to misuse of close-vote reasons.
 
Thanks
 
12:24 AM
I agree that the initial revision of this was probably too broad, since it was asking about 5 different syntaxes. The current revision is a great question. I've upvoted it and purged obsolete comments.
 
@RyanM 2 * n (Trying to fix it.. editing it, putting it only the reopen queue). n * 2 (changing it. Putting it into the reopen queue). How is one more work for others than the other?
 
@Scratte I really do not understand your argument. You do not have to provide code for your closed and downvoted "how-to question". You rather have to get it reopened by pointing to the site rules and your question's lack of a violation. And, yes, your debugging question can and should be improved by adding an MCVE.
It's not about work.
Nothing is ever about work! Stop judging other people's work!
 
Oops.
 
@CodyGray But the edit invalidated Barmar's answer: That's what method 5 is doing.
 
This is the reason we end up with questions wrongly closed. "I don't think anyone should put in the work to answer this." <== WRONG WRONG WRONG
 
12:26 AM
@CodyGray That sounds like a lovely sentiment, but what do you mean practically? it has been made quite clear that there will be no official requirement that users respond to clarifications on requests.
 
@AdrianMole Would you like me to delete the answer? :-) In all seriousness, I'm not sure what your point is. This is why you shouldn't answer questions that are too broad. If you want to answer them, you should edit them instead.
 
@Scratte one requires checking to see if the problems in the original were fixed, the other requires evaluating an entirely new question. There also aren't tools to communicate why the new version is bad by closing it, so reviewers would have to write a custom comment if they want to provide feedback. It also likely invalidates any comments that might be already there.
 
@cigien Nah, there isn't one. But if it's made clear through discussion that the consensus is the request is inappropriate, then (A) it shouldn't be closed through here, and (B) the request can be binned. We can hope that the discussion will educate the user and cause them to change their mind, either retracting their request or modifying their future assessments, but we can't require that, obviously.
 
@CodyGray Don't fret - I edited the answer.
 
@Scratte For what it's worth. I liked the first edition of that post. Not fond of the second one.
@CodyGray I don't agree. It showed research effort. And it lists all the different ways to connect.
 
12:30 AM
@Scratte Asking for a comparison of 5 different things tends to be too broad. Research effort does not matter.
 
@Scratte I've tried to follow the conversation but haven't been able to understand what post is being talked about?
 
@CodyGray Ok, that sounds reasonable. Ryan's request is a nice precedent. I've seen posts satisfying that criteria get closed here. I'll ping an RO next time, thanks.
 
@cigien Make a fuss about it raise a well-reasoned objection to the appropriateness of the requested closure first, before contacting a RO.
 
@CodyGray Naturally.
 
In other words, don't ask a RO to make an objective decision to override the request. Raise an objection, let it be discussed, ping a RO or mod once a consensus is reached.
Right, OK. Just wanted to be clear that we're not going to start getting ROs or anyone else to be the final arbiters of correctness.
 
12:33 AM
@CodyGray It didn't ask for a comparison of 5. It listed them all and only asked for the 2.
 
@CodyGray Of course. I have a reasonable grasp on the meaning of consensus.
 
@Scratte Ah, I see. That was not my original reading.
 
@bad_coder this one :)
 
@cigien You aren't the only one who reads the transcript. :-)
 
:)
 
12:34 AM
@CodyGray Read slower?
 
I don't have time to read slower
2
You get what you get
 
@Scratte Looks good to me...(Others may disagree, at this point it's an SME matter I suppose.)
 
@CodyGray ? :) Does that mean one need to write a post the way others read them? Shorter is better?
 
Shorter isn't necessarily better. But, yes, you should optimize your writing for other people's reading.
 
On the topic of naming stuff would question like this be on-topic? It has an answer that is factual (not POB) and is asking about programming related thing. stackoverflow.com/q/9572892/1839439
 
12:38 AM
@Dharman I'd hazard to say yes, that is on-topic.
But based on the answer, I'd say that's a useless definitional/semantics debate that is outside the bounds of a practical programming problem.
Which explains the closure.
 
@tink this has no CVs (including your own) and seems to be a Python programming question. Was this the intended link?
 
Anyway, I think I'm not special in any way when it comes to why I do not ask Questions here. I've seen some very bad outcomes on fine posts, and others have very likely too. And I just don't want that to happen to my post. The fact that I know how things work means I can sometimes make a very small change that has a big impact on a single post here or there, but it doesn't fix it, and I wouldn't be able to fix my own post in the same way.
 
@Scratte So, your objection is that questions sometimes get wrongly closed?
 
You could say that the users that love the debugging post and hate the HowTo post have certainly won.
 
@Scratte you might enjoy participating on a smaller site: curators and moderators there have a lot more time to work on fixing bad questions to be good, and every request to reopen something gets attention. I've had a question go from an incorrect dupe-closure by a moderator to a Hot Network Question :-)
 
12:46 AM
@CodyGray It's not that they get closed by mistake. It's that the opinion for many is that they are rightly closed.
 
That's not, to be clear, to say we should give up on fixing the issues here.
 
@Scratte But... that opinion is wrong, according to the site rules, as well as yours and my vision for the site. So, I think it's fair to call the questions "wrongly closed".
@RyanM Smaller sites have their own problems... like elected moderators not following the established model.
 
@RyanM I have looked at the smaller sites and there's nothing on those that sparks my interest topic wise.
 
What is the best thing to do about "code pls"-type comments on how-to questions?
 
@RyanM Flag them as "no longer needed"
 
12:47 AM
@CodyGray yeah, that's definitely true...I've expected moderators to handle my flags like SO moderators and been...surprised a couple times :-)
 
@CodyGray I suppose.
 
The reason this process is important is because, rather than just being generically angry, we can identify the root cause and then try to think of how to fix it.
 
@RyanM I always reply to them with a meta post. If they're not told that this is a problem, they'll not know it.
 
@CodyGray I'm always a bit afraid of declines there; is NLN sufficient or would a custom "this is not a debugging question; code is not required" comment flag be better?
 
@RyanM Your choice. I doubt anyone would care. I'd personally prefer the custom flag.
That's because I read every single comment that gets NLN-flagged before deleting it. Usually, I'll also skim the question and the other comments. A hint saves me time. Takes me an eternity longer to handle comment flags than certain other mods who just delete virtually anything that's been flagged.
Trying to educate people on site rules in comments is generally a losing battle, and only results in an extended argument that mods have to delete. I would prefer to just flag these and get them removed so they stop proffering wrong advice.
 
12:53 AM
I'm still impressed with whichever eagle-eyed moderator declined my NAA flag on a code-dump answer from the OP (maybe this one? I really gotta get 10k...) that I thought was intended as an edit but actually was subtly an answer...I totally missed it; it was a good decline on the moderator's part.
 
@CodyGray They just post is on some other post.. and I find it rarely sparks an extended discussion. It does on occasion only.
 
it was either that or this
 
@RyanM Gotta be the first one. That second one is "why not to add breakpoints?"
 
yeah, that was my guess too, based on the dates.
 
On the first one, your NAA flag was declined by moderator A, and then someone else's NAA flag was accepted a few days later by moderator B. :-)
 
12:55 AM
Heh.. ever since I started answering in comment, I've always wondered how many of those got deleted by NLN's later on :)
 
That's why it was deleted. Then the OP deleted the question.
 
ha...well, maybe it really was NAA. I'm still not entirely sure, but my reason for flagging it wasn't quite right.
 
I suspect the mod who declined your flag thought you were just flagging a code-only answer as NAA.
Which is an incorrect use of the flag, per the Meta guidance. The "this is a code-only answer, which makes it not useful" button is shaped like a downward-facing triangle.
 
I think I had a comment saying something like "this should be an edit."
 
@RyanM ...you think moderators read comments on flagged posts?
 
12:57 AM
I usually comment on borderline-NAA cases to drop hints for moderators or reviewers...though these days I'm more likely to lean on custom flags for subtle stuff.
@CodyGray ...well, I did in June ;-)
the comments definitely work on LQP reviewers, but probably less so on moderators
then again LQP will delete almost anything, so...maybe it's not just the comments
 
Yeah.
Try it the other way around: raise a NAA flag, but leave a comment explaining why it is, in fact, a subtle answer. See how often the post gets deleted.
Or ask Scratte, who I believe has been running this experiment for the past year.
 
@RyanM can't see what that's referring to, must have gone to the graveyard?
 
@tink No, still active. Try this link.
 
@CodyGray A lot of times people don't care at all. They want to press the delete button so much that only a moderator can stop the process. Or the odd user that decides to edit it out of the queue.
 
@Scratte I flag those when I see them, which when I review LQP is not infrequent. Haven't done that queue much lately, since the mods are on top of those flags and my time seems better spent elsewhere.
 
1:03 AM
But if I don't try to save it, I'll feel like a horrible person. So I have to post the comment and hope.
 
@CodyGray Thanks ... I stil think that's not a coding issue but a networking one ... why my CV is gone I can't quite understand; I'm positive that I CV-PLS'ed it.
 
@tink You never cast a close vote on it on the site proper. Perhaps you were out of close votes for the day when you posted the request in here?
 
Cody, possible but not likely, I rarely do more than 20, maybe 30 a day (I was once cautioned to use them sparingly).
 
@RyanM I'm kind of turned off all reviewing at present. It feels wrong to do it.
 
Maybe I had a browser malfunction/ network glitch myself.
Once in a while our wired 802.11 plays weird tricks on me
 
1:07 AM
That question is outside of my subject-matter expertise, so I don't have a strong opinion on it, and it wasn't clear to me whether it was off-topic or not, which is why I didn't act on the close request. I will say this, though. Just because the answer involves network troubleshooting doesn't necessarily make the question off-topic. If it's in a software development context (i.e., someone is writing code), then it's probably acceptable here.
What is wired 802.11? Does that exist?
 
Fair enough, I'll bear that in mind. In that case - could you (or some room owner) please remove my cv-pls?
 
Yeah, I can. I wasn't trying to make a ruling on that one, just commenting generally.
 
Yeah, it does. And in our work environment wired connections that aren't authenticated can't do anything but ping and nslookup.
 
1 message moved to SOCVR /dev/null, upon request
 
Thanks
I appreciate that it's not very common to have 802.11 on wire (it's fairly standard on Wifi) ... but it makes things tie into the firewalls nicely, as they can pull group privileges from my account rather than base them on IPs ...
 
1:12 AM
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.1X is an example of a wired 802.11 protocol, I believe
 
But two, three times a week my wpa_supplicant spits the dummy and drops my auth ...
 
not uncommon in enterprise environments
 
I guess pretty much anything that works for wireless can be made to work wired: it's just like sending the signal down a very thin metal tube.
 
I've written a systemd unit and a script to resurrect it, but I can still be off the wire for 15-30 seconds when that happens
@RyanM - no idea how common it is; I've been in IT for quite some time (and changed countries and job a number of times ;)) and this is my first workplace to use it ...
 
Yeah, I don't think it's very common at all. Of course it's possible, since 802.11 is just a protocol. You can use it with any physical layer you want. I just haven't seen or heard of it being used on a wired network before.
 
1:16 AM
I do rather like the concept, though, and think people should make more use of it. Protects one from silly things like spoofed MAC addresses.
 
I have seen 802.11-style authentication on a wired network, though, which I think is what Ryan linked to.
 
Heh. I think the OP just confirmed my suspicion =} that it's a network issue.
 
So, I went on the internet to find out the meaning of "diatribe" and it tells me "n. Same as diatribe" :D
 
@CodyGray no 802.11 is all Wifi.
@Scratte lol, if you look in a good dictionary the definition is funny. I'd recommend searching for it in your native language. (The term is also pretty vague.)
 
1:34 AM
@Scratte: that's the definition of "recursion"
 
@HovercraftFullOfEels Yes. I found it quite funny :)
@bad_coder I had not thought of that. I'll try it. That did not make a difference :D
 
@Scratte google translate is very poor as a dictionary, try a "good" dictionary.
\o time-out for me.
 
1:50 AM
@bad_coder I'm not sure there is anything better. I'm getting a very strange result to a word that just means "result".
 
@CodyGray yep, that's what I was intending to refer to, at least. I'm not an expert in that field so I'm only mostly certain.
 
2:28 AM
@RyanM Hehe, no; Ryan Styles (Stiles)?
 
@HovercraftFullOfEels OP added code. Can you check?
 
@cigien ah, better, sort of. I supposed I can withdraw the request here. @TylerH please help
 
@HovercraftFullOfEels It's not very exciting. I'm happy to let it go through the queue.
@HovercraftFullOfEels Hmm, the OP's posted the identical code twice now, and I'm not clear on whether the questions are different :p
 
2:51 AM
@cigien I've closed one as the duplicate of the other.
 
@Scratte No repro. Where did you look to find that?
Pretty sure "diatribe" is also a Danish word, which explains why Google Translate translates the English word "diatribe" to the Danish word "diatribe".
It says the German translation is "Schmährede", which makes sense, too.
diatribe/invective/rant/denunciation
In German, literally, "insulting speech"
@bad_coder Someone earlier told me that is not correct. What is your source?
 
Heh - That site allows you to adopt a word. I wonder which word Cody would adopt?
 
I don't even know! That's too hard!
 
3:37 AM
@CodyGray That one also has the recursive thing going on :D Ohh.. silly me, that's what you meant :)
 
Right, the definition from "The Century Dictionary" is the recursive one. This is the page from which Duck Duck Go pulls its definitions.
Looking more closely, it seems like the parsing for The Century Dictionary's definitions is just... b0rken.
Exhibit A: "noun Specifically"
 
I looked at a engelsk-dansk translation, and it seems very strange to me. Since most of those doesn't look like "A continued discourse or disputation." nor "A bitter and violent criticism; a strain of invective." or "A speech or writing which bitterly denounces something."
 
Uhh... what is that actually saying? That the Danish translation of the English word "diatribe" is "udfald"? Yeah, I don't think that's right at all.
I mean, with the caveat that I don't speak Danish...
 
As in "In conclusion, what we want is a precautionary framework and not a prohibitive diatribe.".. not understand what that's suppose to mean.
@CodyGray Yes. Udfald is just plain wrong. That just means result.
 
Can a C++ SME check if this is a dupe of this?
 
3:43 AM
@cigien Busy discussing human languages with Scratte; check back later :-)
 
Of course, no rush :)
 
That proposed "master" question is itself a duplicate.
Not sure about the latest question by Deto24... That might be a duplicate, but on the other hand, it is kind of a debugging question, rather than a how-to question, and it seems they're using Qt, so maybe they're looking for a Qt-specific answer?
Yeah, I'm thinking definitely not a duplicate. They have a specific problem: "for some reason does it not work anymore when the array gets bigger". That's not a how-to question.
Your answer... well, it kinda glossed over that specific problem, too.
Which is OK. It's always OK to say, "Ah, do it this way instead." But that doesn't make the question a duplicate.
 
@CodyGray Thanks for finding the proper target for the target itself. I'll delete and move my answer there.
 
@cigien I didn't do anything. A comment had already been posted on eerorika's behalf, after they cast a vote to close that had aged away.
All I did was hammer the question closed, which implicitly deleted the comment.
I suppose, thus hiding the evidence that anyone else was ever involved, and making it look like I did the hard work of finding the duplicate.
 
@AdrianMole "Irregardless", of course. One of Cody's favorite ones :)
 
3:49 AM
(Which is actually something that bothers me a bit. I kinda wish aged-away close voters still showed up if the question gets closed for that same reason.)
@Scratte ಠ_ಠ
 
@CodyGray Yeah, the OP's attempt is the only reason I wasn't sure. And yeah, I try to ignore the attempt in my answer, unless there's something interesting there that's worth pointing out.
 
@cigien In an ideal world, I'd say that an answer would start off explaining what was wrong with their original attempt, and then move on to show the idiomatic/preferred way.
 
@CodyGray Oh, I totally missed that :( Was the comment on the question?
 
@cigien Yup... where they get automatically placed. It was a "possible duplicate of", so it was older than the current "Does this answer your question?" implementation, but "possible" was capitalized, so it was since the capitalization bug was fixed...
It was actually only 6 minutes after the question was posted. :-)
@cigien I'm thinking it would be more appropriate to just merge the questions, moving all the answers. Any objection?
 
@CodyGray Hmm, I'm not sure. I find it annoying when I'm looking for how to do something, and I first have to read an explanation of why some attempt (that I certainly don't care about) was wrong. So my approach, when possible, is to tell the OP why their attempt is wrong in a comment, and only write the how-to part in the answer.
 
3:54 AM
@cigien Ah, well, now you're arguing that people should ask "how-to" questions without showing some stupid, wrong attempt that is guaranteed to be boring and useless to every future visitor. That's a different point, although not one I disagree with.
I do however disagree with you putting answers to questions in comments...
@Scratte Would it help to read the sentence as: "In conclusion, what we want is a precautionary framework, rather than a blanket prohibition"?
 
@CodyGray Yes, merging is problematic. The target is yielding the random numbers from a function. I think all the answers on the dupe will need a bit of a rewrite to be merged.
 
I think that's a better reflection of what is meant, although I don't have the benefit of context. The word "diatribe" seems a bit out-of-place in that sentence.
@cigien Yeah. I was just coming to that conclusion. Actually, to me, the issue is the specifics about the question I picked as a master.
 
@CodyGray That's what the Danish translation says. But I'm trying to future proof my understanding of the word. Diatribe meaning prohibition is a little surprising.
 
@Scratte Yeah, I think the original author just didn't pick quite the right English word.
Diatribe just means "angry rant", "extended criticism", or something like that.
 
@CodyGray It's a little ironic I didn't know the word then :D
 
3:58 AM
I'm assuming this is... maybe Shog9 talking about how to modify the Help Center? And he's saying that we don't want to turn the Help Center into an extended argument against people's straw-man misunderstandings?
 
@CodyGray I believe I did come across it in the comment section of the post we found yesterday about the "Not an Answer" flag.
 
Oh, I just realized your dictionary/translator gave that as an example sentence.
I thought it was something you'd come across here on this site, which is what prompted you to go looking for a translation.
 
@CodyGray My logic here is that the fix for the attempt is solely for the OP's benefit, and so they get helped even if the fix is in a comment. Why worsen the answer with irrelevant noise, when that's what future visitors will see. In fact, I've had OP's accept my answers that only show how-to and completely ignores their attempt. I've often wanted to simply edit out the OP's attempt at that point. I take it that's not acceptable?
 
It was mentioned in a comment here
 
@cigien It's still an answer to the question, so it still belongs in your answer, not as a comment. You can set it off with a horizontal rule or something, but you should not split up your answer into an answer and a comment.
As far as editing the question to remove the irrelevant example... yeah, that'd be fine with me.
I agree it does make the whole Q&A more useful to others in the future.
 
4:05 AM
@CodyGray Is it ok to post 2 answers? One with the fix, and one with the actual how-to?
 
@cigien Gah! No.
You're overthinking things again.
 
Worth a shot ;)
 
This is a Q&A site. Someone asks a question, you can post an answer.
If their question presents some code where they're making a mistake, and you want to correct that mistake, then that's an answer to the question that was asked, and it belongs in your answer.
 
Sure. I tend not to answer those, unless I can also show an alternative that they should write instead. And at that point I no longer want to add the bug-fix to my answer :(
 
@Scratte I can't find the original source of that quoted "In conclusion..." sentence anywhere on the Internet, so I don't know where they've gotten that from. As I alluded to above, I think that's an especially poor example sentence. einpoklum's comment where he uses the word makes far more sense. And I don't know why Shog9 either misunderstood it or tried to mock it. The original point was a reasonable one.
 
4:07 AM
@cigien The only issue with editing out an attempt is that it's then ripe for closing under any closing reason by the "no attempt"-crowd
 
@cigien Why? It can be easily skimmed/skipped by future readers, especially if you are careful about how you format the answer.
 
@CodyGray Sure, it's doable, but you agree it lowers the quality of the answer?
 
@cigien Not if you properly set it off.
I don't agree that having a longer, more complete answer can ever lower the quality of an answer.
Would I say it's better than editing the question to remove the noise? Nah, not necessarily.
That's a judgment call you have to make. If you think there's nothing at all to be learned from the example code or the mistake(s) made in it, then I'd just remove it and post a general answer.
 
The sentence came from the site here. The one with "udfald".
 
@Scratte Yes, I know. Generally, those sites/books pull the example original-language sentences from a corpus of texts, and then provide a translation. I can't find the original.
 
4:11 AM
Ahh.. I see. No attribution has multiple issues ;)
 
@CodyGray Ok, I think I understand, thanks.
@Scratte Agreed. Based mostly on your complaints (and that's a compliment), I've started following "no-attempt" questions that are nonetheless on-topic in the C++ tag, to see if they get closed. Speaking of which ...
 
@cigien I believe you mean "on-topic"?
 
Indeed, just in time too, thanks :)
 
I read that many times, trying to figure out if there was anything there which could possibly be defended as unclear.
 
There's nothing unclear about any of it. Scratte is right. If this is happening so frequently in the C++ tag, it must be worse in other tags.
 
4:18 AM
I don't think we can assume that.
I wouldn't be surprised if it was the worst or close to it in the C++ tag.
 
Many tags have their own community of curators. I can often guess the close-voters on some questions.
 
@RyanM Do you use the same trick that I do, of looking in the blue box for their names? Or do you guess in some other way?
 
@CodyGray Fair enough, I don't really have any evidence to base that assumption on. Why do you think it's likely the other way around?
 
@cigien C++ tag is full of pedants who think askers need to deserve their time.
 
@CodyGray I mean before they're closed (often I'm the third close-voter on Firebase questions, and there are two other people who are often the other two)
 
4:20 AM
@cigien You mean to say I have an impact? :)
 
I admit that my phrasing may have been unclear :-p
 
@RyanM That's hardly fair. Is there a Firebase question that hasn't been reviewed by Frank van Puffelen?
"Two other people who are often the other two" is also a paragon of clear phrasing.
 
@Scratte I think you (and others, Cody especially) have helped shape the approach and thinking of many people in this room, myself included.
 
@CodyGray Well, that much is true. For what it's worth, I've been trying to be vocal on posts, saying things like, "this is a low effort question, but is on-topic". Being somewhat known in the tag, I'm not completely ignored.
 
@CodyGray That's not exclusive to the c++ tag though.
 
4:22 AM
Probably not, but it's definitely a big problem there, more so than what I see in other tags.
 
@Scratte I've been saying that consistently, and been trying to point out that you would have even more impact, if you stopped believing you have no impact in the first place.
 
You would have more impact if you would actually do things, rather than just complain obliquely about them...
 
@HovercraftFullOfEels Sorry -- missed the request before it was sent to the graveyard
 
@CodyGray As in reopen voting?
 
@CodyGray Sometimes it's only Doug Stevenson when I get there. Alex Mamo is another familiar name in that tag. I mostly skip Firebase questions, but some are obviously awful. Frank's a really detailed reviewer, genuinely impressed with some of the stuff he spots in questions and points out in the comments. A comment from him saying a Firebase question is unclear is major points in my mind toward a close vote.
 
4:27 AM
@cigien Thanks. I guess I didn't quite believe it. I was told on meta (in comments) to basically go away some time ago.
 
@HovercraftFullOfEels Speaking of, they've deleted their other question and added their code, so do you still think this is lacking focus? One of their previous questions was marked as a duplicate of stackoverflow.com/questions/908168/…, but I'm not sure that is appropriate.
@RyanM I don't recognize those other two names. But I honestly couldn't even tell you what Firebase is, so don't take that to mean too much.
@Scratte You mean when I told you that you needed to get over your dislike of people being able to edit your answers and change your capitalization of nouns? Or was there something else?
 
@Scratte For what it's worth, I've been trying to tell you the same thing :-)
 
@CodyGray No. It wasn't you at all.. And it was comments to my comments.
 
@RyanM To go away?
 
@CodyGray errr. The thing cigien said. Yay ambiguity.
 
4:29 AM
Doesn't look ambiguous to me... :-p
 
@Scratte In any community that's large (and that's probably like 20 people), there will be some people who tell you to bugger off. Incorporate all the constructive feedback, and ignore the rest. It's the only way to keep going I think.
 
@RyanM Thank you. I thought the major influence was always Cody. Which made me feel a little lonely for a while.
 
That's still true. Ryan gets all his ideas from me.
 
But yeah, you shouldn't take one person disagreeing with you as a consensus that you're wrong.
@CodyGray because I'm actually your sockpuppet?
 
The colorful version
 
4:31 AM
@RyanM When there's more than 2 people in async chat, I just respond to the sepcific message. Super confusing otherwise :p
 
both supposedly Bay-Area residents, both clearly not in that time zone based on activity...
 
@RyanM But that's the thing. It wasn't just one person. Most of the time it was me arguing with multiple other users. Some more diplomatic than others.
 
It's weird that my alter-ego would be an Android expert, though.
 
@cigien yeah, I considered replying to your message, but then decided that I was responding, in my head, to "I guess I didn't quite believe it." ...which, in retrospect, was unclear.
were I doing it again I would have quoted that part.
 
@Scratte You argue with me all the time. Few are any less diplomatic. Yet, most of the time, we agree.
 
4:33 AM
@CodyGray Not that kind of "less diplomatic" :) There's a difference between not agreeing and getting personal.
 
You dumb squirrel, you're full of nuts!
 
@RyanM Oops, I see what you mean. Yes, that would have been unclear without a quote. Made for a good joke though, as Cody spotted instantly :)
 
@Scratte On Meta, the people that agree with you aren't going to be the ones commenting. They're the ones clicking the up arrow next to your post... checks profile ...hundreds of times.
 
I'm not! There are never enough nuts! :)
@RyanM Ohh.. right. I do have a few upticks on comments. The posts are unrelated to the HowTo mission though.
 
It's OK to have multiple soapboxes.
 
4:42 AM
@CodyGray I guess this is a as good a time as any to ask you to check out the new help page for reviewing First Posts. I noticed the issue when it was posted on meta.se and it didn't make me happy at all.
 
Any particular reason why not? Or is that part of the challenge?
 
@CodyGray Heh.. I'll find the meta post while you look at the challenge :D
 
Well, one immediate problem is this use of the verb phrase "do... [an] action[s]". That really bothers me.
One cannot "do" an action. One can perform an action, or take an action.
 
It's not grammar related.
 
Can one undo an action?
 
4:45 AM
@AdrianMole You'd think that inaction would do it.
 
I do see another problem. "Select I’m done if/when you’ve completed any of the following:" No, only select "I'm done" if you've addressed all of the problems with the post.
If it's not an answer, don't just vote down and click "I'm done". You need to flag as "not an answer".
 
Wanna see a bug? Search Users for "ThW", then click the German one's profile. Check the rep difference.
 
Here's the meta post Review queue Help Center draft: First posts queue. I wrote an Answer, but I didn't post it.
 
Why not? What do you stand to lose?
 
@mickmackusa The rep listed on that page is the rep gained in the past week.
 
4:48 AM
Ah. that explains it! haha. I was noticing that it didn't even match his old sock: stackoverflow.com/users/497139/thomas-weinert
 
@cigien Getting a "Thanks! I've adjusted the wording" comment from Catija. Because it'll inevitably have a smiley in it, and nobody likes that.
 
@cigien Time!.. Lots and lots of it if I create a profile on meta.se.
 
@CodyGray Wait, what are you talking about? Scratte wasn't going to post a grammar correction request were they?
 
@cigien Wouldn't adjusting the wording address concerns other than grammar?
 
Oh, right, of course. I see what you mean.
@Scratte Is this the same logic as why you don't want to earn privileges? Because then you feel obliged to use them? I don't get it exactly; I have accounts on a few other SE sites, and I hardly ever visit them.
 
4:53 AM
Yeah, you can waste hours on MSE without ever creating a profile.
 
@CodyGray So, yeah ... I should down-vote, vote to delete, flag as NAA, leave a comment and edit-out the "Thanks." Can I then click "I'm done?" :-)
 
@cigien I've hidden my other accounts. I don't visit the sites. I feel it's just clutter.
 
... or did I forget something?
 
But it takes shorter time to read a post than to write an Answer.
 
Yeah, you forgot to check all their other answers for plagiarism.
 
4:54 AM
Ha!
 
But no. My issue with the wording is under the "For questions". I feel there's a bullet point that doesn't do well for HowTo Questions on that list.
 
@Scratte Questions that do not show research effort can/should be downvoted as part of the review process. The wording does not imply that such questions must be closed.
 
It also doesn't imply it shouldn't. And all other bullets on that list are close reasons.
 
@CodyGray BTW, I've given some thought to what you, and the rules say about "close immediately if off-topic" and I disagree with that. It's not an efficient use of my close votes.
 
On that one... in First Posts review, if I downvote and then "I'm Done" - presumably, that ends the review process (for the FP queue). But does my downvote give the system a 'hint' that it should be pushed into Triage?
 
4:59 AM
@cigien It's essential to get the question closed immediately to stop answers from coming in.
@AdrianMole Unlikely. But I don't know any details of how review works.
@Scratte No, they aren't. The very next bullet is "be appropriately tagged". That's not a close reason; that's an edit reason.
 

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