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12:00 AM
Nooo, I lost 2 post flags.
 
@AdrianMole Can you clarify what you mean by that? Do you mean from meta discussions?
 
@cigien My impression is that people generally don't want to say that they don't like off-topic stuff being deleted even if it has value, so you can only expect few users with this view to actually express it in words. I don't care much if I'm unpopular by the normal meta voters, and I didn't participate in your other posts at all, because I know the deal, just like this one. Just don't expect us "tree-huggers" to actually come forward with it.
 
@Scratte I guess that's what I'm not being able to wrap my head around. Why aren't users willing to say they want to keep off-topic posts around? There's clearly support for that view point.
 
@Scratte I think that the opinion that off-topic-but-valuable stuff shouldn't be deleted has been expressed repeatedly and at length, at least in this room (including by me). My impression of the set of questions cigien linked in the question is that they're not valuable: a few random samples were mostly one-off, often-dated anecdotes that don't present a comprehensive, useful picture of things.
 
@cigien For example, if you post something on Meta that gets lots of downvotes - don't take it personally, just learn! None of us (not even rene) is beyond judgment; Meta (to me, anyway) is about learning how this wonderful Community maintains its momentum. Meta is "Grad School" for those who want to stay around.
 
12:08 AM
I have deleted one Meta.SO post that I posted that was heavily downvoted, after helpful feedback from this room suggested I should have stayed more closely to the accepted format for such posts and that the suggestion wasn't inherently bad. I'll probably re-do it one of these days.
 
@cigien Because preserving things is hard and gets you a lot of resistance. Destroying is it easy and often gets you cheers along the way. It's kind like real life that way.
No one had to prove that those posts are harmful or that they obstructed SEO in finding on-topic posts. No one had to actually fight to prove they have to go. But saying "No, please don't delete it", one is immediately met with "Prove it's value!".
its not it's.. English is tricky..
 
@AdrianMole Indeed, but it's vastly different than learning from being down-voted on main. For example, take this very post. It's been heavily down-voted, but no one actually said anything (apart from Scratte, and 10Rep). And in the 2 hours since I made the post, 20% of the posts have already been deleted (there was previously exactly one delete vote across all 56 posts combined). Of course, there may be lock flags on some, which we won't find out about immediately.
Since my goal here was to delete the posts, it feels like the lesson I've learned is, this works. I feel I may have missed out on some negative aspects here though, so what am I misunderstanding?
@RyanM Was that a post asking for users to contribute delete votes? If so, and you do decide to repost it, I'd like to discuss the details of that with you if you'd be interested.
 
@cigien Perhaps the users that cannot un-delete these posts are not happy? They can only watch it happen.
 
@cigien Meta and the main site are very different. No rep dv just means "I disagree!"
 
@cigien it was a tag burnination suggestion for
 
12:21 AM
Is this an audit? I honestly think the question should remain closed because the problem statement doesn't clearly define what is intended...But I suppose popular questions have a way of getting reopen votes.
 
@bad_coder You can check the ajax response :)
 
@Scratte Don't have any user scripts on me...The question is however up for review, with an incorrect vote count, and is in fact already open...
 
That would make it an audit, yes
it also has the wrong number of close voters for a question closed 11 days ago
 
@RyanM Hmm, that's different. That's over 500 posts, and would require SMEs to evaluate the burnination. I assume you had good arguments for all of that. If you don't mind sharing the link to the deleted post, I'd still like to take a look, and see if that gives any insight.
 
@RyanM OK! I'll hit the skip button then...Don't want to hit a bad audit :)
@RyanM Wait a minute...So the correct option is "leave open"?!?! Let me try that...
 
12:25 AM
@bad_coder if you genuinely believe it is a bad audit (I haven't looked closely), you could use your new close voting powers to cast a close vote on it from outside the queue. That would remove it from the reopen audit pool.
@cigien ah...I would be happy to if I could find it :-) ah, here it is: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/399276/… - the revision history may also be relevant.
 
@RyanM Strangely, the response seems to not contain the audit value.
 
@RyanM ok it was an audit, and the correct option was reopen (although it should be closed). I'll forego casting a vote outside the queue, don't want to be accused of starting a CV war.
 
Perhaps I'm not getting the full response since I can't review the queue.
 
@Scratte I don't know :( but at least I think I've found a way of not hitting audits on the queue.
 
@bad_coder I like those.. I think if I ever review again, I'm going to skip everything but audits :D
 
12:34 AM
@Scratte You have stopped reviewing? (Good remark, that statement was amusing :)
 
@bad_coder Self-imposed bans are much sweeter than forced ones ;)
Besides I take too long.. and it's making me unhappy about some of the closures.
 
@Scratte That's witty :) an act of your own will is indeed the best way to go.
 
@Scratte I feel a little bad that I give the impression that I'm in the "destroy everything" camp; I have the opposite view in general. But this does raise an interesting question. Given the estimates I've heard of millions of posts that need closure/deletion, if posts that have negative scores, few views, and have already been closed as opinion based, need further justification to merit deletion, that goal becomes considerably harder to achieve.
 
@Scratte I was thinking today: "when I get lots of rep I'll give Scratte a bounty" and say: "don't spend it all in one place (downvotes)" :D
 
@cigien I don't mind posts getting deleted, if they have misleading code, malicious code, no use for anyone due to being outright wrong, if they're nr. 117 of duplicates. They're really bad Questions and no good Answers on them. But this.. is different. And so was the pronunciation one. Those posts were just sitting there, doing no harm. Not confusin SEOs. Some of them had very good Answers.
2
In my opinion it's not making Stack better to remove them, because they weren't in the way of anything.
@bad_coder No.. none of my posts deserve a bounty :) I'm happy down here between the big guys and the little people :)
 
12:46 AM
@Scratte I'm quite confused now. We vote to close and delete posts in this very room every single day, that are not misleading, malicious, wrong, or duplicates. I don't mean to imply that you're claiming a comprehensive list here, but the next sentence suggests that we shouldn't act on posts unless they're doing active harm. I have to disagree with that. Take the latest request here by Ken, would that post cause any harm if it just sat there? Do you think it should be closed/deleted?
 
@cigien I tend to not look at delete requests, because it just depresses me. I look at Dharman's once in a while because they don't depress me. Closing new posts that are unanswerable is vastly different from deleting old posts that just happen to be off-topic now.
 
@Scratte Ah, ok, I didn't know you felt that differently about closing vs deleting. I've pretty much been assuming that you had similar views on both. Thanks you for clarifying that, I understand your objections much better now.
 
The last request from Ken is not a very good Question. It's not even based on opinion, it just asks for a link. If we could guarantee that only good Answers would come in on that, it wouldn't be a problem. But I think it's just going to be short link-only Answers. That's just too much Answer-handling, and it doesn't scale.
@cigien I can still see a post that's closed. I can read it's Answers. So can the world. I can even find them, and also: So can the world.
 
@cigien I'm backing @Scratte in his "fight" to stop to delete old, often highly upvoted and visited content for being off-topic nowadays, maybe 10,11 years later. we have "close" and "lock" and "historical lock" to stop further interacting with those, but still people might continue finding those Q/A's useful
close and delete the new crap !
 
Even it it doesn't have 207K views, when I open op a post that was opinionated post that was Answered and closed 7 years ago, I usually learn something. Perhaps I'm not suppose learn how to pronounce the * in c at Stack. But if it's there, I'll still read it.
The past few weeks, I've been reading up on some of the school stuff that I have forgotten about, and searching the internet I often find some old Stack post that's closed, or not closed but probably should be (I don't give anyone links to them though :-)
 
1:10 AM
@Scratte To me that's partly the problem. Visitors to SO get the wrong impression when they see posts that would be closed and deleted nowadays. IIRC, in the last few days there was a question by a user that said "why was my post closed as too broad when it's almost exactly like this older post?". And the response was "true, but we don't do that anymore", which is not an ideal response to have to give (that old post was closed minutes after the meta question was posted).
But as to deleting it being the best option, of that I'm not convinced. It's a good point, there may be better ways, such as a banner that says "old question that is off-topic", or maybe we could be more liberal with historical locks.
@Vickel That's a fair point, I hadn't considered the age of the posts. How would you feel about a meta post asking only for closures and only on posts that are less than 5 years old? Or less than 3 years old? Would that be acceptable to you?
 
No.. there's a big banner saying that a post is closed with a reason why. That's not confusing to new users at all. It's the ones that aren't closed that confuses them. And this misunderstanding and reasoning has been going on for a long time, and it will not ever stop. There's noway you can make every Question valid as if it was asked now, or deleted it if it's not and not lose a big part of what Stack Overflow is.
 
@cigien I'd look at the "usefulness" (based on votes and visits) of those posts and lock them, but leave them, why destroy (delete) historical content? It's still knowledge.
 
@Scratte Fair enough. Simply closing those questions would address most of that issue. Deletion is not really necessary for that. As to what makes a "big part of what SO is" I defer to the judgement of users who have been around longer than me, which is most everyone :p fwiw, I do feel that "how to pronounce * in c" is not appropriate for SO. And it's not like the knowledge will disappear. That question could be posted on reddit, and I suspect it would be received quite favorably.
 
So as per my understand you want to eliminate the new user argument that they should be able to ask a Question if it's in the same style as another Question. I think it would be easier to teach new users to find the help center, and I think it would also be better for Stack. As far as I can see there's no enough reviewers and voters to handle the new stuff that comes it.
So going after old stuff to eliminate the argument is not going to make a dent. They can just find a new post and use the same argument :)
@cigien But when I search for that, I find some old Stack post. Not one on reddit.. :)
About users being here longer than me. Everyone has been "here" longer than me. But I've used Stack since forever.. I've landed on posts here when searching way before I created an account.
 
@Scratte That doesn't make sense though. Are you saying that because you can find off-topic content on SO, that defines what SO is, and hence those posts should continue to hang around? That seems a bit circular, and self-fulfilling.
 
1:27 AM
@cigien First: The Answers on Stack on those old posts are better then whatever else I can find. Second: The fact that Stack pop up on everything makes it successful. That's circular, indeed. Third: No, I didn't say that old off-topic stuff is everything that Stack has to offer. Obviously it's not. But it it's there and I search and I find it and it brings me clarity, then I'm happy. I get worried when it has a blue banner, because then someone may say "Oh. Nice.. I'll pop in a delete vote" :(
The only reason why I do not share any links to anyone about some old open off-topic post, is because I do not want it deleted. If I could be sure that it would only get closed, I wouldn't keep them so secret.
 
@Scratte if you go down the list starting from the highest up-voted questions, you'll find hundredths
 
@Vickel Schhh! :)
 
it's late night... no one cares
 
I'd love to contribute to the conversation but today I'm lucky just to have time to read it.
 
The SOCVR transcript is always read.. by someone :)
 
1:35 AM
@Scratte late for me, too see you tomorrow /o
 
@Vickel Usefulness is certainly important, but I've personally not found votes and views to be a good indicator of that. It seems to correspond to the age of the post more than anything else, and also popularity is not a great metric either. As an extreme example, take this post that was deleted after 10 years, with 1.5M views, 800 upvotes on the question, and over a 1000 upvotes on each of the top 5 answers out of a total of over 600 answers.
 
..another one to read in 2034 I guess.
If it's a duplicate, posting it here may just get in un-deleted :D
 
@Scratte Haha, no it's not a dupe. I hope ;) It would make a great reddit thread though :)
 
But see.. these post with that many views should in my opinion never be deleted. I'm not going to say it's useful other than users have clearly read it, a lot. There's a usefulness in that in itself.
 
@Scratte I see your point of view. I'm afraid I disagree though; there are many useful things to me as a programmer, e.g. memes, jokes, top 10 best keyboards in 2020, ... you get the idea :) Just because SO is the most useful site for me, doesn't mean that I want all that information to be on SO. I know you're not suggesting that we allow adding new content of that nature, but I would also go one step further, and advocate removing such existing content as well.
 
1:52 AM
Yes, I know. I very strongly disagree with removing it. It's part of the history. I'm sure lots of users/people had broken links to that post when it got deleted.
Users have even likely trusted Stack to keep it in a bookmark on their profile and doesn't even have a direct link to it.
Not that I can predict the future, but I'm sure in 10 years time, the list of what's on topic will be different too. It may even loosen up.
 
That's interesting. Hypothetically, if SO maintained a list of all deleted posts, that was searchable, but still not viewable unless you had 10k rep, would you be less averse to deletions? I'm not saying I think this is a good idea per se, just wondering if that alleviates some of your concerns.
 
@cigien That would only fix it for a few users, and it would not make them actually searchable, since everyone that's tried to search on Stack found out that other search engines are much better. It doesn't really matter when my reputation level is. Because I can only fix that for myself. I can't fix that for the world.
 
@Scratte Identical answers are not automatically removed. Identical answers are automatically flagged. Moderators tend to then delete answers in response to those flags, but it's not automatic.
 
@Makyen Yes, sorry. That's the second time I made that mistake :(
 
@Scratte np
 
2:03 AM
@cigien The only way to "fix" it would be to go through 64855404 id's at 10K and fetch the content. Evaluate it for OK, fine, useless, horrible. Then post it where a search engine can find it and make it public. That's a major task and I'm not one to do it. It would be much much easier if only really horrible stuff was deleted :)
 
@bad_coder Why is this request posted here? In general, we don't do flag-pls for NAA or VLQ flags. Please see the FAQ: Can I request people to vote or flag on posts I find? for more detail as to why and the conditions under which we do accept such requests.
 
@Scratte No, it's not an easy fix, and might not even be possible to do. But if a magic wand was waved and it was fixed, you'd be ok with deleting more posts? I'm just trying to get clarity on what your objections are exactly.
 
@cigien 1: It's not searchable 2: It's gone for most of the world even if they have a link. Actually only 22,201 users can see those posts and only if they have a link already.
 
@Scratte Yes, if the whole world could see it, they wouldn't be deleted. And that would mean they're only searchable by privileged users, at best. You're right, ignore the hypothetical, it's not consistent.
 
2:17 AM
Speaking of.. I am looking at an open post from almost 10 years ago, that should have closed 10 years ago :D I'll post it here if nothing happens in the close vote queue :) And if it gets deleted, I'm pretty sure nothing is lost..
 
@Scratte That's the spirit ;) If it helps, think of it this way: the more junk that's removed, the more the average quality of the site goes up :)
 
@Makyen You are right I was confused upon seeing that post and completely forgot some of the rules that apply.
 
@cigien It's a different kind of post. Even the partial Answer says "in dire need of context and clarification"
 
@bad_coder np. I was just wondering. Things happen from time to time.
 
@Scratte I'd love to see that post, and compare it with posts in the meta list I made.
 
2:21 AM
@cigien The thing about it is that I sometimes feel that the more horrible stuff that gets posted here, the better. Maybe then.. people will stop deleting the other stuff.
 
@Makyen I made 3k today, so it's a considerable break from routine :)
 
@bad_coder Congratulations!
 
@bad_coder So.. now you have reopen votes ;)
 
@Scratte uuuhhhh, yes?! (I fail to understand the...)
 
@bad_coder Most users are happy about getting close votes.
 
2:27 AM
@Scratte You sound serious. You want more, even lower quality junk, so that older junk doesn't get noticed? That's an ... interesting way of tackling the problem.
 
@Scratte ahhh ok, that's what I was thinking, but I'm happy to get both :)
 
@cigien Yes, but I'm optimistic. It's really out of my hands.
 
@cigien I believe @Scratte is referring to posting in this room, rather than on SO. I did once dump several (~5) terrible questions from my collection in here when a del-pls came up for something that didn't seem bad.
 
@RyanM Ohh, phew, that makes a lot more sense, thanks. cc @Scratte So sorry, I misunderstood what you meant, and I was thoroughly confused :p
 
2:45 AM
I think I'm confused about what I'm meant to have meant now. I meant that if other users posts unclear, unfocused, unanswerable posts that get a "maybe this is what you meant"-Answers. Then perhaps some old post about how to pronounce LaTeX would not have been deleted.
 
@Scratte Ok, so I did understand what you meant. To clarify, you would like more low quality posts on main, so that curating them won't leave enough time/energy to delete older posts?
 
@cigien There's no changing the opinion or peoples willingness to delete these old posts, so when I look at the possibility for being able to keep it, that is the most promising.
 
@Scratte I hope sincerely that that is not the best approach to solving this problem. For starters, it doesn't solve anything, but only makes it seem less problematic by comparison. And if this is the best option, then it seems the cure is worse than the illness :(
 
@cigien I can understand why you say that. You also referred to both the old posts and the new horrible stuff as "junk". I don't think the old ones are that, so to me there's no illness on those :)
 
@Scratte Fair enough. I'm glad, we both seem to have understood what the other's view is. That's the most important thing, since it means we're both informed about what we disagree about :)
 
2:59 AM
@cigien The number of posts from a list which get deleted is not that great a measure of consensus. It's only possible to cast delete-votes. It's not possible to counter-vote. In order to express that one doesn't feel it should be deleted, the user has to wait until it's been deleted and then cast an undelete-vote. I'm not making a comment in either direction wrt. should these specific questions be deleted. I'm merely pointing out an inherent issue with delete-votes.
 
@Makyen This point also applies to close votes; I've often wished I could cast "Leave Open" votes outside of the review queue. Do you know if there has ever been a Meta proposal for that feature?
 
@Makyen That's fair. I didn't mean to actually measure consensus that way, and the implicit comparison between delete-votes and comments/answers on the meta post, was unfair. It's apples and oranges really.
My response was based partly on the results of the meta on pronunciations that I made last week. There was opposition to that request as well, and someone even compiled a list of posts asking people to undelete them. Pretty much every post in that list has been deleted, and since then, not a single one has been undeleted.
I am extrapolating that result to this post, and expecting a similar outcome. That's not fair, and I should wait for users to have a chance to cast undelete votes, or flag for locks before deriving any conclusions about this particular meta post.
 
@RyanM I believe there has been, but I don't have a link handy.
 
3:18 AM
@Makyen By the way, if at some point, probably when the dust on this meta post has settled, you care to share, I'd love to hear your views on the matter. Not in general, I'm sure you can point me to meta posts where you've talked about this, and that would be great, but specifically this post.
 
3:30 AM
Please see stackoverflow.com/questions/64825661/… and stackoverflow.com/questions/64761064/… for undeletion. OP deleted posts out of spite for a duplicate answer being deleted.
Answers may also need to be separately undeleted.
 
@Spectric Ok, I'm not sure why you're posting a link though. You can flag the comment yourself right?
 
I just find it so amusing @cigien
 
@Spectric Yes, I can see that. However, that is considered user shaming under the SOCVR guidelines, so I would suggest refraining from sharing those links. Feel free to mention these incidents if you want, but avoid sharing links.
@dbush This appears to be under discussion on meta, so it may not be constrained to just these posts. You should probably flag one of the OP's posts, and explain the situation. You could also ping a mod here, though I'm not sure that's ok.
 
@cigien No.. no pinging moderators for moderator activity :)
 
@Scratte Yes, you're right, bullet point 18. cc @dbush Don't ping a mod.
 
3:43 AM
@Spectric FYI your first comment in that post can be flagged as "condescending" which is not the correct way to interact with others persons on the site.
@Spectric Also, keeping with CoC implies we should assume "good faith" so we are under obligation to assume the OP was not calling other users "useless" but simply stating the comments did not contribute towards a solution to the stated problem.
 
4:05 AM
@AdrianMole Can I talk you into trying a different variety next time?
 
4:41 AM
 
4:51 AM
1 message moved to SOCVR /dev/null, reasons already mentioned.
 
 
2 hours later…
7:18 AM
"tanks for your attention"
 
 
2 hours later…
9:01 AM
Just had 2 NLN comment flags declined on a post where a moderator appears to have wiped every comment I flagged, plus one more that I didn't flag...
I'm confused. Is there a situation where a moderator would decline a NLN flag, but delete the comments anyway? It seems like NLN is basically "this comment isn't bad, just unnecessary," which matches why a moderator would wipe the comments.
(they also marked 2 more NLN flags helpful)
 
I also don't know why a flag but be declined under these circumstances, may be a misclick. or...two misclicks?
I know that "rude" flags may be declined if a post is not really rude, but NLN is usually "safe"
^ I wanted to edit the above message, but...misclicked. Oh, the irony
 
that was my impression. they were a bit overly snarky, but not line-crossing, so I went with NLN
 
That's a good example, which I'd forgotten about, though not really applicable to this particular situation, in which I flagged an argument between two users: in fact, based on the order of the flags and my extremely vague memory, it appears that one of the declined flags was on a comment calling other comments "useless."
 
10:36 AM
One can post a request here if one doesn't have any non-deleted Answers. But what's the policy of deleted one's Answer, then posting a request.. and then un-deleting the Answer?
 
@Scratte Not allowed, obviously, I think that example specifically is in the FAQ
 
@Scratte covered under rule 27: socvr.org/faq#GEfM-no-sneaky-manipulative
 
@rene Thanks :) I guess if it only happens once, it can be called a "mistake"?
 
It depends, if you do it on purpose to be deceptive, even if it's just once :p It's not really a mistake
 
I'll kick you once by mistake then ...
 
10:41 AM
@Nick Yes, well.. recent events made me go looking for stuff in the graveyard.
 
teh karate flower
 
@Scratte I think there's likely gunna be some leniency if the undeletion happens much later on, people forget after all, and posts get re-opened/edited etc.
 
@Nick I expect less than a day doesn't count as "much later"
 
Sure, but the context you've provided is limited :p
 
@Scratte You suspect possible abuse?
 
10:44 AM
I just wondered about the policy. I had forgotten about the "sneaky" rule. Thanks :) If I notice anything in the future, I'll voice my concern :)
 
Remember that it only applies if the answer is a non-CW answer, CW answers don't count as involved
 
Yes, that I didn't forget :)
@Lankymart This is the user you're have a disagreement with on meta in A Stack Overflow user has been harassing me, what should I do?, right?
 
@Scratte If you are specifically talking about that meta issue, I undeleted my answer in an attempt to resolve the problem. I admit I deleted the answer after the user unaccepted it, but I received direction from moderators and decided I should undelete it.
@Scratte I'm sick of that entire situation to be honest. I'm simply going through the question queue I follow and trying to maintain a degree of quality that particular user has posted a lot of duplicate/typo questions and I have tried numerous times to help them through comments etc. They have taken my usual activity as a slight against them personally.
@Scratte Are you saying that because they have some issue with me I should treat them as a special case?
 
11:02 AM
got to this old post and I have a feeling that most upvoted answer and this one are NAA, any thoughts?
 
I've currently got 9 open requests of which only 1 is for that particular user, I'm simply trying to keep the question queue clean.
 
@Lankymart Just ignore that user. There is no point in your blood boiling over some user who doesn't want your help. I know it's not easy, but if you keep on fighting this battle then you only hurt yourself.
There are other users who will handle their questions/answers and it doesn't have to be you.
 
@Dharman I'm not leaving any more comments it's pointless, I even upvoted one of his questions because it seemed okay I don't know what more I can do. But that isn't going to stop me from trying to manage the queues I follow.
 
@Ruli Yes, both of them seem to be "me too" answers.
 
@Lankymart No, that's not what I'm saying. They are saying they're posts are being closed and it seems to them to be targeted. So I went to look both here and the graveyard. And I found some.. oddities. The deleted and un-deleted Answer was one of those.
 
11:07 AM
We should be judging questions on their merits and not on the individual who posted them.
5
 
That is true, however I find posting 3 requests in two days here, that's posted by the same user that you also happen to have a disagreement with to be a little strange.
 
@Scratte same tag would be a plausible reason for this...
 
@JohnDvorak Yes. Fair enough..
 
@Scratte I'm not going to lie I was hurt by their suggestion that my answer was incorrect and I was unprofessional and lied, I probably overreacted I'm not denying that. I tried to correct my actions.
To be honest, I'm done talking about it now.
 
It's meta, meta discussion hasn't got much place here /shrug
 
11:14 AM
That meta post has been locked
 
@Nick Yeah, don't want to bring it here. Just noticed the discussion and felt I needed to say something.
 
Wasn't against you :), if people want to discuss it, there's the ability to make more chat rooms... not that there's a high likelihood of you going to answer any questions
 
Move on folks
 
@Scratte they kept posting questions in the tags I follow, other than giving them a free pass I'm not sure what I can do.
@rene moved on.
 
thanks.
 
11:24 AM
Feel I need to justify every close vote I cast now.
 
It's always nice to cast the final spam flag that sends the post into orbit
 
Until you find out that it wasn't spam, but an actual Question :(
 
@Scratte Want to share the story with us?
 
@JeanneDark That came from your question yesterday :) Where it looked like spam, but it may not have been. I felt really bad about flagging that, so I think I'm going to hold off on those flag for a while.
 
11:40 AM
@Scratte I thought the answer I received then was tongue-in-cheek
 
@JeanneDark It wasn't.. the report they mentioned in the post is actual for that site.
 
Do you mean my answer?
 
@Dharman Yes
 
@JeanneDark I flagged as spam, but then I realized I was wrong. I could't undo since I was the sixth one to flag. I gave SD a FP and we talked about it in Charcoal. It was not spam, but it looked like one.
 
Okay, thanks! It really looked like spam so I thought it may have been too obviously spam
 
11:44 AM
Either way it was off-topic here. It might have been a valid question on WebMasters.
 
@Georgy That's an old question with a very decent answer.
 
@Lankymart Yes. But it's still off-topic IMHO.
 
@Georgy It's over 4 years old now and the answer has over 200 votes, seems silly to try closing it now.
 
@Dharman I also don't think it's too much to ask of users to not post something that looks like spam, but rather read the help center and put some work into the post. We don't want to have actual spam stay around longer just because of such cases either.
 
Agreed. We should not feel guilty. Let's try to be more careful with red flags but let's not get as afraid as Scratte and stop flagging at all. That would be much worse
 
11:51 AM
I'm the example being used? :) It's like "don't go down like Elvis" or something :D To be fair not a lot of Spam is actually coming in anymore. It's like one or two a day in this room.
 
@Lankymart Why so? It has a recent activity (<6 months) and it was used to justify another opinion-based question, so I think I don't break any rules by asking to close it.
 
@Georgy I never said you were, just seems trying to close a question with 190 votes that contain answers with 200+ votes that's over 4 years old now seems silly to me.
 
@Georgy It looks ok to me but needs some editing. It's not primarily opinion based.
 
I disagree: "how can I think about the else keyword so that its semantics make sense, and I can therefore remember it?" Asking for some logical way to remember the else is what happens if the if doesn't is POB, why would the same thing not be the case with loops
 
Edited. Now it can't possibly be taken as opinion based
 
11:59 AM
grumble grumble - retracts CV
 
@Dharman OP rolled it back
 
I can see
 
@Dharman /shrug, not much more I have to say on it, it'll've been auto-mod-flagged now
 
Great, now it got closed.
I try to help and this is how people treat me
 
Meh, we gave them every chance they could get
 
12:15 PM
@Dharman welcome to the club
 
Well, guess we can all agree to blame @Georgy for bringing it up :p
 
I am so disappointed with Stack Overflow today. People ignore my edits, tell me on Meta that we should not be deleting questions, undelete the VLQ questions I voted to delete. This site has no future.
 
@Nick ^^'
 
Already it's difficult to find useful information and it's only getting worse
Nobody wants to do any cleanup, they just want the points
 
Hey.... I only want to do cleanup :p I'm not interested in the points
The points are a means to an end to get more cleanup power
 
12:17 PM
Not everyone.. well. I don't like the deletions ;)
The points are a means to an end to get reopen and un-delete votes ;D
 
An answer that is just a copy of PHP manual is the most upvoted one and the accepted one. I changed the documentation because for 10+ years the example there was completely and utterly broken but I can do absolutely nothing about the answer on SO.
I think I should just stick to answering typo questions like everyone else
 
Edit the answer?
 
@JohnDvorak I can't. I already posted an alternative answer and the guidance is that I should never completely rewrite answers to say something else
I think Stack Overflow should have some kind of super users. Some users with powers to unilaterally delete, lock and clean up the site. There should be a number of such users who could take care of such issues plaguing the site.
4
 
Like moderators?
 
You mean mods?
ninja'd .-.
 
12:25 PM
Like SE employees?
 
@Dharman I think that is not uncommon. I have an Answer somewhere where another Answer is also basically a copy'n'paste of the specification..
@Dharman Heh.. and when that gets implemented, only dogs and cats should do it?
 
Moderators only delete NAAs all the time. Sam has been doing great work, but has done too much and caused a little harm in certain cases. There are names on Mod page that I have not seen do anything in a long long time.
Deceze is doing very good work with PHP questions, but that is a single user for the whole tag. We need more...
 
@Dharman I'm not going to say none of them take a break or that if they do, the break seems a little long. But keep in mind that some of the moderator tasks are not possible to see for mortals. Like comment deletion, investigating users, reaching out to users, suspending them.
 
True, I don't know who is handling all my comment flags, but that is a very simple task. Maybe the system could help out more. What I am saying is that we need more users. Not necessarily mods, but user who could do more and do it more quickly without having to fight with other users
 
@Dharman That idea has appeal for sure. However, as you you yourself said yesterday, it's hard to trust users with too much power. I'd be quite interested in coming up with a system that strikes a balance between this.
 
12:37 PM
But that is not possible as long as there is no consensus. Stack seems unwilling to set a direction or to post about it. That makes it more or less anarchic. We just don't agree and can vote to what we find is best going in opposite directions.
 
Maybe we could hold elections and vote for people who will feel would be responsible enough with such powers
 
@Dharman That's just like politics. You can't possible know if you're going to agree with their actions before you know what they will do.
 
and why do you think the responsible people will be voted on?
7
 
@Dharman Electing these users is definitely a minimum requirement. There need to be appropriate safeguards to mitigate potential abuse. Who watches the watchmen, and all that jazz.
 
I think electing more moderators is easier to get done than creating a new type of users.
Elections have always been a popularity contest, not a responsibility contest.
3
 
12:40 PM
@Mast Say that to all the elections where the popular vote lost... oh wait, that's just because the Electoral College is bad
 
Then maybe give powers to users who have proved themselves useful. e.g. number of helpful flags.
 
Electoral is still a popularity contest with extra steps.
Just done slightly different.
Still not a responsibility contest.
 
Why are mods still handling my comment flags, can I not be trusted with them after 22k helpful flags?
 
No, because you might go into a blind rage and flag everything
 
Then the system should watch my actions
How do you define blind rage?
 
12:42 PM
Robo reviewers are still a problem.
 
@Dharman that is a funny question really, because I recall someone saying that most moderators will delete them without even reading them..
 
If you can put it in words then you can put it into software rules and watch my actions in the background
 
Looks like you're using a hash router. Use a normal history router... But without code, questions like this tend to be closed. — Praveen Kumar Purushothaman 22 secs ago
 
@Scratte Case in point. Mods don't even read them. They just delete all comments, why can't I do it?
 
Get elected and you can, you came quite close last time didn't you?
 
12:44 PM
4th place out of 6
 
@Dharman It's suppose to be a safeguard. If they don't read then, it still gives users the impression of a safeguard.
 
it was close to the last place
Elections are at the mercy of Employees and I need to have more reputation points to win
 
@Mast IIUC, Dharman is suggesting a new tier of users, with some cleanup powers, but not the full suite of powers that mods have.
 
@Dharman There were 4 good candidates.. that I know of. I didn't know too much about the other two, so I can't say if there were in fact 5.
 
@cigien Yes.
7 mins ago, by Mast
I think electing more moderators is easier to get done than creating a new type of users.
 
12:47 PM
@PraveenKumarPurushothaman Misfire on a cv-pls request? :)
 
@Scratte The above one boss.
Unfortunately @Dharman came between my chats! (rofl)
 
@Mast Ah, sorry, I didn't realize you were following up on a previous comment.
 
Boss :D It's been a while since I've heard that one :)
 
How comfortable would people be with electing me knowing that as soon as I get elected I would go on deleting spree?
 
@Dharman Not very.. even I worry about that.
 
12:49 PM
@Dharman Perfectly happy, you just need to get into an election where the competition is less... I mean... Machavity and Makyen? I wasn't gunna not vote for them
 
If in the next election only trolls show up, you'll make a good chance either way.
I'm always surprised what comes up during elections lately...
 
@Mast That doesn't sound like an actual compliment though ;)
 
@Scratte It was meant as a completely neutral comment.
 
I found a good question today in my tag. It's a rare occurrence among hundreds of duplicates. But when I got to it, it was already closed and downvoted severely. Why? On the other hand a typo question has 3 or 4 answers and is positively scoring. What is the purpose of Stack Overflow.
4
 
Did you try to reopen it?
 
12:56 PM
@Dharman Ahh.. I have this experience too. In my case I just upvote the closed on-topic fine post because in the past I haven't had much luck explaining why I think it's fine.
 
@JeanneDark Yes, but it still needs one more reopen vote
 
@Dharman Please provide a link to the question.
 
@karel I was talking about this one: stackoverflow.com/questions/64868834/…
 
1:35 PM
@Ruli It's clarity, not quality (although the latter would also make sense) ;)
 
yes of course I know, I need more focus haha
 
2:31 PM
Also the answer took me to the profile of Mackenzie Jackson which has so far 6 answers all almost identical - promoting the GitGuardian tool, is that all spam?
 
@Dharman sure thing
 
Can someone remind what the protocol is for suggested edits like the one here? I would normally approve it, but the question is closed, and is unlikely to be edited into shape.
 
@cigien reject, it is also a change of coding style.
 
@rene Reject on the grounds that it's a coding style change?
 
2:39 PM
 
2:54 PM
Is this question suitable? It was unclear before the edit, but I'm not sure it doesn't still need debugging details.
 
@cigien yeah, and that it is not an edit that will salvage that question.
 
@rene Ok, sounds good. Thanks for clarifying.
 
Ohh man, casting CVs is addictive...I could do this all day.
5
 
@bad_coder well, you can only do it up to 50 times, so no you probably can't do it all day :-P
 
@TylerH hahaha, I'll run for mod and get more CVs :D Close all teh thingz
 
3:06 PM
one every 14.4 minutes will get you 12 hours
 
3:32 PM
@PraveenKumarPurushothaman Why can't you flag it?
 
@Dharman You know what happened with my flagging history recently! 😞
 
Ohh. I flagged it
 
^ I wonder why it has 10 upvotes, though...
 
@Dharman Great thanks.
@Georgy Waahaat?
Blame SP! 😅
 
@Dharman This is just an XYZ problem.
 
4:24 PM
@AnnZen Hello, I'm not sure if you are allowed to post in threads where you have a conflict of interest (since you also answered on the same thread). Also, if it's a NAA raising a flag should be enough to send the post to the review queue, (special rules apply to NAA and del-pls...)
 
@bad_coder I'm the only one who answered.
 
@AnnZen that is not allowed under our current rules
 
That other answer was posted a few days ago and was supposed to be a comment for me.
 
@AnnZen Then just flag it as NAA
 
I did.
 
4:28 PM
@AnnZen we don't want to make that judgements calls here in this room. Let the regular review queue handle it.
 
That's funny... I remember being told that we can propose to flag posts here.
 
Not if you're involved
 
Also, the reason I'm proposing it here is because the review queue won't be able to tell that it's the OP who implemented my answer in their code, and explained how it didn't work.
 
@AnnZen This is something that mods can take care of. If NAA flag gets declined then you can use a custom mod flag.
@AnnZen Have faith in the review queue
 
4:32 PM
Got it!
Thank you, and bye!
 
@Dharman I know that scenario all too well.
 
Is this a new thing that we now get notifications on questions we follow when it gets closed?
I think today is the first time I started getting such notifications
 
@Dharman IIRC there were changes to the follow mechanism to incorporate more types of events. Perhaps closure was one of these.
 
4:43 PM
@Dharman Sam has been working on (with help from Yaakov) making a list of when you get notifications from followed posts, for questions it now includes comments, closure, re-opening, migration, locks, edits and rollbacks
 
5:11 PM
re-open votes don't age away, right?
 
@rene They age away exactly like close-votes.
 
I thought they did?
 
ah, that is 14 days, right?
 
@rene Trying to prove me wrong or something?
:p
 
@Nick I'm on the same path. I'll see if your comment covers my point
 
5:13 PM
@rene Either 4 or 14 days, depending on the number of views: views >= 100 is 4 days.
 
@rene If you can write it more succinctly than mine i'll happily remove mine
 
Actually, I've never been sure if it's >= 100 or >100.
 
And it's a little tricky to test, no? :)
 
@Scratte Yeah, exactly. :)
 
5:17 PM
We send spaceships to ISS but we can't work out if it is >= or > . It is a wonder they didn't dock with Hubble ... ;)
 
<=> spaceships?
 
@rene If they didn't you could easily keep Roomba away from a question forever
 
@JeanneDark Do reopen votes stop roomba?
 
@Nick your comment covers what my idea was.
 
:thumbsup:
 
5:22 PM
FAQ answer: Bullet point 7 "...pending reopen votes..."
 
That means you can easily keep roomba away from a question forever :p if your vote doesn't result in action you can just re-cast it when it ages away
Depending on context, Medias should be used if there are multiple different types of media
 
I sometimes see questions that have been roombad get undelete votes. If 3 vote to undelete, will it get roombad again once the process runs again the next day if the post still fits the criteria?
 
do you really count that as "easy"?
 
Welll..... that's a fair point ^^
 
@CertainPerformance Good question. I believe so. If the criteria is met. But if you want to undelete a post, maybe it's assumed you'll also upvote it or vote to reopen it.
 
5:26 PM
Even if you want to automate it, you'll have to research when votes time out ... and probably run the script from a headless environment because a userscript isn't guaranteed to run in time.
 
@AnnZen I want to try and explain the reasoning behind what is a "conflict of interest" see FAQ#15. To ensure there are no misunderstandings. Please consider those rules apply to everyone, if you read the room transcript you will find that all posters follow those rules without exception.
@AnnZen Having said that, the issue with "confilct of interest" is that it assures neutrality. If someone has a personal investment in a post, they can't request actions on that post in this room. The aim of the rule is to try and guarantee an equitable handling of all cases.
 
@Nick No. A) Not all Roomba tasks consider reopen votes. B) I believe that just like for close-votes there's a cool-off period between when the vote ages away and you are able to recast it.
@CertainPerformance Yes.
 
Ah, I wasn't aware there was a cooldown period
 
Those active votes get hot.. like little rockets ;)
 
@AnnZen I also want to say I'm happy you came of your suspension and are still participating on SO. I think you have talent and I hope you have success in the future.
 
5:42 PM
@AnnZen Accoding to Should I use 'media,' or 'medias?', "media" is already plural and "medias" seems to be non-standard.
 
@Scratte It's in the dictionary /shrug, media can be plural, in the case of multiple social media websites, then social medias, while strange, isn't wrong
 
@Nick I noticed that. But making an edit to a post that has "different social media" to "different social medias" seem to me to be enforcing one's own style.
 
Yeah... I don't agree with it either, just saying it's not wrong :p
 
^^ I'm out of votes and can't flag.
 
@bad_coder You used all your reopen votes today?
 
5:54 PM
@Scratte No I'm saving the reopen votes for later :)
 
@bad_coder me too
 
..and they say reopening is just as easy as closing.. tsk tsk :)
 
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