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12:31 AM
 
user3956566
1:17 AM
 
3:50 AM
I was about to ask a question, but my brain closed it as "not a real question" before I could post it.
3
 
 
1 hour later…
4:56 AM
@EJoshuaS That's a very good self-discipline example :)
 
5:12 AM
@Vega Either that or I've been hanging around SOCVR for too long :)
 
5:32 AM
o/
 
\o
 
 
3 hours later…
8:52 AM
@YvetteColomb believe it or not, that is my state at the moment ;)
 
@rene my current state has snowy mountains in front of my window. So strange, land that goes up, instead of below sea level
 
@Adriaan Ha! be aware that that snow comes down sometime in the near future as well. It will get as wet as here and/or get you killed ;)
 
@rene I guess I won't be back in the Netherlands until all snow is melted
 
@Adriaan Have you already settled or are you still in an hotel room, living out of your suitcase?
 
@rene I have a pover apartment. Bare concrete walls, and paying top prize, of course
 
8:59 AM
of course ...
 
At least I got my residence permit and a bank account :D
 
That is the start for becoming a new capitalist, so congrats!
 
I had to fill out a two page questionnaire about my relation with the US (green card, being born there etc) before they allowed me my bank account... Jay, having the RIS check my bank statements, me being Dutch with a Swiss bankaccount
@SmokeDetector answer looks OK; if the link is problematic, that can be edited out I think
 
I'll report you for tax evasion ...
 
@rene I don't pay taxes in the Netherlands anymore :P
 
9:02 AM
That is my point
I expect you to pay for when I'm going into high-care
 
@rene I'll pay for a weekly swapping of water, and a satchel of plant food ;)
 
:D
 
 
user3956566
10:03 AM
@rene I believe you. I took the pic :D
 
10:25 AM
the only purpose I'm connecting on SO on weekends is to hunt down duplicates & bad questions...
 
Zoe
11:13 AM
Ninja'd
 
Is it just me or the username in cv-pls userscript is written twice?
 
Zoe
weird
Didn't happen for me
 
 
3 hours later…
 
 
2 hours later…
3:37 PM
@rene: point of clarification since you're a RO: Is it OK for mason to request an action on a question that he has answered?
Interesting though that the question was closed by the OP themself
 
@HovercraftFullOfEels uh, no. That is not permitted. Sorry @mason
 
@rene Okay, so I asked the question. What bad happens to me now that I've asked it?
And what's to stop any of you from objectively thinking about the merits of what I asked for?
 
@mason I moved that it out of our transcript. That is all.
 
@rene Why? Are we not here to promote valuable content and remove invaluable content?
Just because I asked for someone to undelete it doesn't mean that anyone is forced to take any action. It's up to you as people entrusted with moderation powers to objectively look at the content and evaluate it, right? Just like with any other post that may have been brought to your attention.
 
well, fwiw, I cast the 3rd vote it and protectively upvoted both question and answer ;)
 
3:50 PM
@mason we believe that if you're involved in a post such requests should not be made here in this room. The rule I linked you to has the extended version of what I say here.
 
@rene Yes, I've been reading that rule the past couple minutes. I'm not seeing any justification for the rule itself though.
 
sure.
 
I'm not sure why my having involvement in the post leading up to the request should have any effect on any other person's decision here on what moderation action to take.
 
@rene actually, the rule says: "For questions and answers: You are "involved" in the question and all answers to the question if you are the author of the question or the author of any non-deleted, non-community-wiki answer on the question.", but mason's answer was deleted along with the question ;)
 
@mason here is the room meeting discussion we had about that before the rule came into effect: chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/108179/conversation/…
 
3:53 PM
@AnttiHaapala Yes. Even if with wording on that was adjusted to say "you're involved if you post or comment in any way on the question" , it still wouldn't satisfy me because there's no justification for the rule.
@rene thanks for the link, reading now.
 
@mason there is a reason for the rule: posting answers to questions and then asking for their closure, ensuring that you only will get the acceptance and upvotes and no competition
I'd say the "OP delete" should be excepted.
3
 
That could be a good topic for the next roommeeting.
I've brought it up in the backroom as well to see if I'm in the wrong here
 
@rene Do you think I did something wrong by requesting the delete, or that I was in it for personal gain? Remember, my answer on the question received a downvote (I think from the OP, there's some deleted comments regarding discussion of why/why not dynamic shouldn't have been used). So personally, it would harm me (slightly, but still) to have the question undeleted.
 
@mason from a rule perspective, yes. I believe your request for action on a post you're involved on is not allowed in this room, based on how I interpret rule 15.
 
@rene I'm not asking you about from a rule perspective. I'm asking you to take a step back and understand the intent of the rule, and to think about whether my action does some sort of harm to the reputation of Stack Overflow.
 
4:02 PM
@mason: I think that all see that this is something that needs to be discussed in a room meeting
 
Because that's far more important than the rule itself, is it not? The rules are an attempt to codify, to make the majority of cases easy, but they don't anticipate all circumstances, and you're expected to use common sense and your background knowledge of the rule to make your decision.
 
@mason I've walked back and forth several times, thank you.
 
@rene You mean, you're on the edge of agreeing with me about the underlying intent of the rule?
@HovercraftFullOfEels I have never participated in a room meeting, so I don't know how those operate, when they'll be etc. But if I'm not able to be there to discuss it, I'd like to know that you and rene understand my point well enough to allow it to receive a proper discussion.
 
@mason I did. My decision stands. You're involved on that post, in the strict sense, undeletion could be beneficial for you in the long time. I'm not too concerned about rep but I'm concerned about the image this room has that it will "force" any outcome on a post based on what is requested. As a room we (and so do I) rather stay away from that conflict of interest, for the benefit of the room and those involved.
4
 
4:12 PM
@rene Well if you're concerned about the image of this room, my image of it is going to deteriorate if I think the operators are more concerned with their image than taking actual action to improve the site's content. If someone besides me had asked you to undelete the post, would you have undeleted it? In my opinion, that is the only think you should concern yourself with. Does the content enhance the site, or not?
 
@SurajRao It looks like you need to update your version of the request generator.
 
@mason while preferable unfortunately this room can't operate under the "use common sense" regime. It has seen too many incidents in the past and that made that we need to operate under a bit stricter rule set then you would when you operate on your own in a review queue.
4
 
@rene Ugh. That's everything wrong with Stack Overflow in a nutshell. We can't do the right thing because we're afraid we might appear to look bad. It's easier to let bad content exist than try to deal with it. Someone might go off and post some irrational blog post talking about how horrible Stack Overflow is!

If you want to retain experienced users and the good content they bring, and devolve to Experts Exchange level garbage, you're on the right track. I'm not trying to say that out of spite or because I don't appreciate the work you and the others do. Just that this conversation is lea
 
4:36 PM
@Zoe I don't see how this is a customer service question. It's not something where we need to know something about the user's account in order to answer, or have access to the inner workings or policy information for the site. GitHub is definitely a tool that's "commonly used by programmers".
 
Zoe
4:47 PM
You're right. I retracted my vote; feel tree to trash the request
 
@mason I'm not Stack Overflow, I'm an RO of a chat room with moderation as topic. In that context I've learned over the years that I need some leeway from meta and not cause too much headaches for the mod team and the CM team. In the discussions I have had over the years with all those different " forces" I believe we have found a way to keep this room going without running the risk of being forced to shut it down.
You're free to see this differently but I rather have a chatroom with stupid rules then no chat room at all and until a majority of the regulars here feel the same I see no reason the let go of the current practice. This room doesn't need to retain users, it only needs to offer a place where you can invite extra eyes on a Q/A pair where you're not involved.
That the rule might surprise you and feel counter intuitive to what we should strive for has some merit but until proven otherwise I rather keep the rule in place.
 
1 message moved to SOCVR /dev/null, per request
 
@rene You are Stack Overflow. We're all Stack Overflow. You say you don't want to cause headaches, which is an admirable goal. But ultimately the job of those teams is to step in when the site quality goes down. In this case, and other hypothetical future or past cases, anyone that has moderation privileges should be in a position to judge the merit of the post themselves, without caring who asked for additional attention to be given so that post.

Let's pretend for a moment this user complains to the moderation or CM team. They should be able to step in, see that the post didn't deserve to
 
5:04 PM
Sure, still doesn't change my stance on the issue.
 
@rene If you're letting the fear of someone making a complaint about your actions influence your moderation actions, then you're not fully onboard with keeping the quality on content on SO up. As a moderator, you have to be prepared to clean up content regardless of what others think. You have to use your best judgement and take appropriate action, not just step away because you think someone might slap your wrist.
 
You're asking a bunch of volunteers to do something, which, as stated, is against their rules. Either bring it up during a room meeting, or start your own volunteer group.
3
 
@rene I've seen you around here and Meta. I have confidence in your moderation judgement (and everyone else here), and I hope you have the confidence in yourself to take action when necessary, and to not let personal feelings cloud such judgements.
 
I think I've shown what I'm capable of in the last hour. Thanks for your support.
 
@Adriaan I don't know when or what a room meeting is. I'm asking a bunch of volunteers to look at a post and use their judgement to decide whether the post belongs on this site or not. Whether you take action on it is up to you. And I'm suggesting that a rule that says that isn't allowed, isn't a rule we should have. And since I don't know how to participate in a room meeting, I'm holding my own little meeting here.
 
5:13 PM
 
@rene Thank you, I'll write up my request there.
 
@Vega yes
 
Thank you! How to flag a comment as spam? With a mod flag?
 
@Vega yes
 
I'm not seeing why that's spam. What's it selling/promoting?
 
@rene Thank you!
 
5:39 PM
@EJoshuaS not spam, it's just the windows error message in french
still NAA
 
@Jean-FrançoisFabre Answer is still kind of spamseed
 
not spam, but still voted to delete.
I already requested deletion for a post where I answered. It was a bad duplicate, with accepted answer (mine). I was involved, but I lost rep by the deletion. It kept the site cleaner (and got rid on an old shame in the process :))
I came forward with this here and it was okayed & deleted.
But using SOCVR mob for personal purposes, that you cannot do.
 
@SmokeDetector Spamseed due to the comment on the post
 
oh, didn't see the comment author was the answer poster. Now I agree. And it's gone.
 
@EJoshuaS The comment on the post just links to where he got the quote from
 
5:47 PM
yup. Not spam. But very bad quality and gone. I think we can forget this. Too bad for the guy who got spam flag (I didn't flag as spam)
On the other hand we cannot click on all lame links just to make sure it's spam or not.
 
@EJoshuaS, that last comment on xcode Q is hilarious!
@Jean-FrançoisFabre I disagree, it was a spamseed. The answer was NAA, linking to the site wasn't helpful neither as answer neither as question. The site in question was the target
 
@Vega Yep - I'm surprised that a high-rep user posted an answer like that
 
that was borderline. anyway, no big deal. crap answer with crap comment, now history.
 
True... I still say it was spam, though... :)
 
@EJoshuaS It is almost a red flag worthy, but I flagged as NAA, I mean the xcode one
 
6:00 PM
Either way, it's gone
 
stackoverflow.com/questions/54269710/…: too bad we can't comment "and I want a poney" anymore...
 
@Jean-FrançoisFabre Is that considered condescending now?
 
just unfriendly or unkind.
 
That's kind of unfortunate, actually
 
the "be nice" policy isn't so bad. watch me: hi Neel, this is just too broad for this site. Sorry.. I still want a poney after this.
 
6:04 PM
@EJoshuaS Now that I re-read that, is he saying quit as "restart" or "abandon"? I understood the later
 
@Jean-FrançoisFabre: get rid of the "sorry". You're not. We're not.
 
I'm not sorry either - I really don't want to answer questions like that
@HovercraftFullOfEels Can we flag parts of comments as "no longer needed"? :)
 
6:24 PM
@HovercraftFullOfEels I'm not but I'm nice :) deleted comment.
 
7:06 PM
@HovercraftFullOfEels I was wondering if it was trolling when the first sentence was "What is a NullPointerException, and how do I fix it?"
 
@GBlodgett: yes, you're right of course. Sucked me right in
 
8:20 PM
How can I improve https://stackoverflow.com/questions/54253927/convert-c-sharp-classes-and-interfaces-to-typescript so it does not get closed?

It is very similar to an old question which has 99 upvotes so I am not sure why it is forbidden now to ask those questions anymore..

One answer was even delete from Robert Harvey without even saying what's wrong with that answer...
 
@jantimon it's rather broad (unless you want "yes" as an answer to 'is there a cross-platform way). Whilst not literally asking for a tool recommendation, all three answers contain nothing but links (which is not allowed, hence they are deleted), the phrasing of your question certainly makes it look like you simply want some tool or another to do the job for you. Asking for tool recommendations is (no longer) allowed.
 
But take a look at stackoverflow.com/a/12959303/159319 it is almost the same with 50 upvotes
Is there anything I can improve?
 
@jantimon yes, and more than 6 years old. Policy has changed a LOT in the mean time
 
@jantimon It looks like your question is a full duplicate of the question you linked to. What is different in your question?
 
The old one is referencing very old libraries which are not maintained anymore
I just wanted to ask for an updated answer
 
8:25 PM
@jantimon phrase it such that it is in accordance with the rules... Read about what kind of questions can be asked here and how to write a proper question
 
Even if it weren't asking for a tool recommendation, the other potential answer type would be a long winded explanation of how to write a library to do that. Which falls under "Too Broad" in my opinion.
 
@jantimon then you should've put a bounty on it, with the mention of 'requires updated answer'
 
Good point 👍
Still sad that stackoverflow has become so hateful
 
I voted to close the old question as well since it doesn't meet the current rules of Stack Overflow.
@jantimon Just because you disagree with the rules doesn't make it hateful.
 
@jantimon you should state in your question which of the libraries you tried and how they don't fit your usecase. They are outdated is not a great argument. They don't work in VS2019 would be a much better one, if that is the case.
 
8:27 PM
@jantimon sigh, it's not hateful, the rules have just changed since the beginning. Everything flew back in the old days because the platform had to get off the ground, by the time it was, rules had to be enforced to keep quality up. It's not hate which closes questions, it's a simple application of the rules
 
Joel Spolsky gave a great talk last year youtube.com/watch?v=hVHMZGnTmTs about that we should try to make stackoverflow more open again..
I can't see how just closing without letting people know how to improve helps the community
 
it is very open, just not for a re-run of every question if nothing has changed in the context
 
@jantimon how didn't we let you know?!? You came in here, we gave you loads of advice.
 
Yes and really good ones! 👍
 
Besides, there's a huge, obtrusive yellow banner with information on what you should improve on that post now that it's on hold
 
8:30 PM
But I would expect those comments from people who close or delete stuff
To explain the reason
So users can improve
instead of just being frustrated
 
There's no need for us to comment, as the reason is in that huge obtrusive yellow box anyway
 
the close banner has all the info you need
 
All comments would do is pile on more, and hammer you down even more. Better leave it with a single, canned, close banner which tells you everything
 
@jantimon I've close voted around 60K of questions. If I had to type a comment on every vote I would have been dead by now ...
 
I sometimes do comment on why I voted to close a question. And often I get "hateful" responses back. It kinda de-incentives people from doing that.
 
8:32 PM
The idea of renaming to "on-hold" was to allow people to rephrase it so it confirms with the rules
 
@jantimon exactly, so you have a week or so to do that now
 
Yes, so if you can somehow edit the question to fit within the rules, then we can re-open it.
 
But I am really struggling to find a good way to ask
Most of the time I don't ask stuff anymore on SO because I am afraid of negative feedback
 
You really shouldn't be afraid of negative feedback. Just follow the rules and it will be okay. Even if you put a toe out of line, just take the feedback into consideration for the future. You won't be permanently harmed.
 
I spend several days to find a good way to solve my question and tried to find a very understandable title and example what I am trying to do.. but I just don't know what's the best way to achieve it..
 
8:35 PM
@jantimon The close reason itself provides an explanation
 
@jantimon I agree with @mason on this; try and follow the (for you new) rules and you should be fine. Make sure your question is on-topic, shows research, and is not too broad. In case of the specific question you just asked, that's what bounties are for. There's even a canned bounty message stating something along the lines of 'The current answers are outdated and need updating', which would exactly fit your purpose here
 
That barely anyone ever reads it is a different matter entirely
But it provides an explanation as well as relevant links to how the question might be improved and reopened.
 
Instead, describe the problem and what has been done so far to solve it.
 
Perhaps adding it as a comment from Community or something would make it more visible and less prone to blindness?
 
Should I add a library that I tried?
and everything is fine?
 
8:37 PM
I don't think this particular question can be improved to be on-topic. Sorry, but it's just too broad. The answer is going to either involve writing a tool to accomplish what you want (which is a big thing to do!) or finding a tool that does what you want. The first is too broad, the second is requiring off-site resources.
 
Curse the person who put the apostrophe next to the enter key
 
@jantimon "I tried library A and it didn't work, please suggest me a new one" <- still tool rec
@MadaraUchiha get a UK/Dutch/German/Swedish/whatever keyboard ;)
 
You could try to implement a library yourself, and if you get stuck with a specific part of the implementation, then you could provide a MCVE and that'd be a valid question.
 
There's a difference between a question of "How do I do X?" the answer for which is "Use library Y", vs "What library does X?"
 
Many solution advice to use for example jQuery.whateverMethodName
Why would that not be an advice to use jQuery
 
8:40 PM
@jantimon We aren't talking about answers, we're talking about questions
 
For example "how can I get the color of my button in javascript" many people will answer with a jQuery method
 
When a question asks for a library, the answers become a popularity contest
 
"how can I get the color of my button in javascript" is also fairly small in scope.
 
I can understand that
 
When you ask a question, the answer might be "use this library", but questions specifically asking for libraries is not likely to provide quality solutions
 
8:41 PM
I was looking for a small code snippet in C# which shows how it converts it
maybe 3 lines of code
of cause it would probably use a library
 
@jantimon Converting C# to TS is not a 3 line of code solution, without a ton of code behind it, meaning: a library.
 
That's correct I 100% agree with you
But asking "how can I get the color of my button in javascript" will also probably generate an answer where some one says just use jquery in this way
 
Meaning that the only viable way to answer your question is "use a library" or "hang on, let me spend three weeks writing you a library and then try to shove it all into an answer"
 
@mason Use a library is a valid answer to valid "how do I do x" questions
 
although jquery is a library
 
8:43 PM
Even if it's the only viable answer
We don't close questions based on what answers might be given to them, we close questions based on the questions.
I don't think the close reason that was given to @jantimon is correct
He's not asking for an tool or a library, he's asking for a way to do it
 
@MadaraUchiha But we do close questions based on what answers might be given to them. jantimon didn't ask for a library, but it was closed as asking for off-site resources. (I personally would have voted Too Broad)
 
@mason That's my point.
Too Broad is a more likely close reason for that question.
 
but asking "how can I get the color of my button in javascript" will probably also result in an anwser including jquery which is also a library
so will it be closed as well?
 
@MadaraUchiha I agree, Too Broad is the proper close reason. But in practice people do close as asking for off-site resources when the question is so broad that you need to write a library to accomplish it.
 
@jantimon which you have stated three or four times already, we know by now, as well as you could've read already that that's not the problem.
 
8:47 PM
@jantimon For example, if I gave you the question "How do you make an HTTP server using Node.js"
 
@jantimon Like I said earlier, that question is small in scope. You could answer that with one line of code, so it's not too broad. So unless you specifically asked "What library can I use to get the color of this button" then I wouldn't vote to close it (and I'd probably just edit that to be in compliance rather than VTC)
 
Would you say it should remain open?
 
Probably closed
 
@AdrianHHH I'd go customer support on that TBH; he's not literally asking for off-site stuff, and it might be an answer as short as 'it uses optimised libraries X and Y'
 
Even though I can tell you that it would have probably remained opened and probably upvoted if it were posted 6-7 years ago?
 
8:49 PM
hm okay but do you believe it would be bad (unless if there would be a duplicate)?
 
Your question, while not quite on that large a scale, is similar.
 
it would suggest to use express and show a small example
why would that hurt the community?
 
Because Stack Overflow's scope is about small, concrete, googlable questions
A such broad questions, while they used to be more acceptable, became less so over the years
 
Questions like how to create an HTTP server are better left to other mediums, like blog posts, tutorial sites, books, and YouTube videos.
 
1 upvote
 
8:50 PM
@jantimon: small text please
 
question is not googlable at all
 
What is your point?
 
I just picked the first question I found which was upvoted
 
Just because you can find a single example of a question that isn't googleable doesn't mean we should stop trying to strive for googleable content.
 
@Adriaan Thanks. I agree that "customer support" may have been a better initial choice.
 
8:53 PM
@jantimon That particular question could probably be edited into shape (although I bet there's a good duplicate already out there explaining that arrow lambdas aren't supported in IE and what to do instead).
 
So it is only about language basics?
I am really thankful about your feedback
 
What makes you think it's about language basics?
 
still a little bit disappointed that every task which gets a little bit more complex and there fore might require a library is not allowed anymore
 
Stack Overflow simply isn't the proper medium for that sort of thing. If you want to generate TS from C#, then you're free to use your favorite search engine to find such a tool, or to create your own.
 
@jantimon I don't mind the discussion but please respect our no onebox rule
 
8:56 PM
And as I said, if you try to make your own, and you run into a specific issue with your implementation, you're welcome to ask about that here! Just make sure to create a Minimal, Complete, and Verifiable Example.
 
@jantimon you're still missing the point. Answering with "Library X can do this" is fine, provided the question is good. Explicitly asking for a library which does X is off-topic, for the reasons outlined on the close reason on your question. Please do read the comments in here carefully, as I feel we're all repeating ourselves over and over
 
9:19 PM
Thanks for all the feedback and the time you took to discuss :) I have to think a little bit about what you said.
Just one last question do you think "how do you use Reinforced.Typings to convert a c# class into a typescript type definition" would have been closed too?
 
10:00 PM
@jantimon It depends. If you're just presenting the library and asking how to use it, then that doesn't really show any effort. If however, you try to use the library to accomplish the goal and then run into specific issues getting it working, and you provide a Minimal Complete, and Verifiable Example showing what you tried, what's not working about it etc, then it'd likely be allowed. Can't judge just based on a title though.
 
I don't agree that you always need attempt. SO has been to basied on this. If the question is interesting (not the n:th dupe, easily researched) it's often better without an attempt
The main problem is just to make sure that people can answer with a reasonable size answer and give as much help as you can to the ones answering
 
As a reader I don't want to wade through a useless attempt - it doesn't help my understanding. I'd prefer a crisp question with an authoritative answer.
@PetterFriberg agree with all that
 
Yeah personally I hate bad attempts in questions also, I prefeer that the problem is well defined instead
All our top questions on SO are without attempt ;), but I know now people dv for no attempt instead of considering is question interesting or not.
 
reminds me of an old meta question of mine: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/338755/…
 
10:20 PM
It would be interesting to push it even further and ask "Can I edit out bad attempts?"
@Jean-FrançoisFabre and that make me remember this chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/41570?m=35605467#35605467 :)
 
Oh yeah I had the honor to have an answer by Tiny.
 
I have not seen him around for a while
 
Is this too broad? See also the (not an) answer added about 40 minutes ago. stackoverflow.com/questions/54259696/…
 
"Can I edit out bad attempts?": well, risky, as some may close as too broad or unclear, when it's actually clearer without the attempt... sad.
OR you can edit the bad attempt when things have settled, everyone voted and moved on. Only people watching the "active" questions would see that and notice the editing out.
 
@PetterFriberg If you don't show an attempt, it's usually just a "gimme teh codez" question. Seeing specifically what they tried, it's easier to put them on the right path. Plus, I've been able to answer questions about things I'm not completely familiar with simply by seeing their attempt and spotting the issue with it. There may be sometimes when an attempt isn't helpful to see, but I'd say there should be one in the vast majority.
 
10:28 PM
Hey mason you're all over SOCVR today :)
 
I'm rebuilding a media server so I'm at my computer a lot today.
 
@Jean-FrançoisFabre I was just thinking the same. That's almost certainly what you'd do if you wanted to repurpose a question as a canonical, for example.
 
@StephenKennedy that has to be a pretty good question, that said...
 
@mason I don't mind "gimme teh codez" as long as it interesting, not duplicated, not easily researched questions that is not to broad. I would even say I like them most "How do you... ?"
But I guess SO by now is 99% debug my stuff plz so in those cases yeah a good mcve is needed
 
11:04 PM
@AdrianHHH Not an area I know anything about, and tl I didn't read, but hitting the character length and needing to post a lengthy NAA to complete the question is quite a red flag
 

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