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12:10 AM
@HostileFork ok, thx!
 
 
6 hours later…
6:09 AM
> "May not be humour to everyone's taste, but I am enjoying the discussions over on the Stackoverflow chat room about the number of types of missing values -- so far they have UNSET, NONE, BLANK, _, VOID?, VALUE? ..... Of course EMPTY? is a special case. And not forgetting some thoughts about UNDEFINED.
From Sunanda on AltME.
> I don't really see a need for such things in Rebol. value? is only to evaluate unset! without triggering an error! Fork tends to be pretty lost when trying to "improve" the low-level aspects of Rebol by making it more complex than it needs to or really is."
From Maxim on AltME.
Public Response: Maxim, you get lost when turning on a computer and not having it explode. Or plugging in a video camera and pointing it at something and having it work. Or starting an edit on a video. Probably tying your shoes.
Since you guys are too dim to actually understand what's being discussed here, and too chicken to come put your design chops to the test, or be brave enough to write much anything at all... it's to try and solve the question of TWO basic things. The setness and unsetness of a value and the reified unset, or the none.
>> none
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== none
 
If you want humor, how about start with that gem which has nothing to do with me. That looks very much like a word, and it loads as a word, and yet it's very much a literal form value. A correct reversible mold of it would be (under the existing syntax) #[none] or maybe #[none!] as that wasn't sorted out in Rebol3
>> mold make object! [a: b: c: none]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== {make object! [
    a: none
    b: none
    c: none
]}
 
The idea of having a literal form for none being _ is not crazy. It's something that could well use a literal form, which would give LOADability back.
And considering alternative names for NONE in a language which has things like SOME and ALL and ANY as operations, is also not crazy. And it's not a repeat of an existing question. That's peculiar to this design space. none [1 < 2 | 3 < 4] being true might make sense. NONE may not be the perfect word to have chosen for whatever this very common "reified conditionally false unset" is. And #[none] may not be the perfect literal.
Anyway, I'm sick of this stuff getting to me. You guys are the pits.
 
6:35 AM
Anyway, posting to the AltME "humor" group with that qualifies for some kind of callout. What a jerk.
 
Who is jerk?
 
In this case, Sunanda would be the person I'm speaking about, with the post to Humor, although Maxim's follow up is personally irritating.
 
Well, Sunanda is author of Rebol.org, invaluable resource for Rebol community, so calling him jerk is inappropriate IMO.
 
Uh, you're a jerk if you do jerky things. I don't care what you do.
And GitHub would do a better job than rebol.org does these days
Add one of rgchris's nice formatting scripts as a front end and get rid of the old thing. At some point of stagnation, a resource that stays there is a roadblock. Makes you look bad.
 
I guess it’s very subjective, what is jerkything.
Probably some people can think you’re a jerk too.
 
6:43 AM
It's on a case by case basis.
People are not usually all one thing or the other.
 
That’s true.
 
Last-minute addition for 0.6.0: common hashing functions (MD5, SHA-1 and CRC32) http://tinyurl.com/gvokvd6
 
Anyway, I don’t see anything that can be called jerky in the Humour group.
 
Let's say you spent a while thinking about something, a project you were working on, maybe something Lest-like
And then instead of someone posting it in announce, or somesuch, they posted it to humor, and made references to PHP or something you didn't like, and said "ha ha it's so bad it reminds me of when I first saw PHP"
That would be a jerky thing to do
Then if the next post was "yeah, that Rebolek, he sure gets confused whenever he comes near HTML"
That would also be jerky
 
The fact that I spent lot of time on something doesn’t mean that the critique is untrue.
Maybe Lest really is PHP-like confused piece of crap.
 
6:51 AM
Well, in this case, the fact of the matter is that the NONE vs. UNSET, literal notations, and other things are not super clear or mapped out in Rebol2 nor R3-Alpha, and Red isn't seeking to innovate in the area at all.
The idea is to simplify things. In fact, perhaps to not have reified unsets at all.
While it's simple to say "ah, the absence of a thing vs a thing with absence, an old problem"... yeah, great observation Einstein. But the thing is there's a large working system which has to be made to fit any attempted simplification or tweak.
So if you're going to try something like making unsets never storable in blocks, or if a member of an object becomes unset then you don't see it when you do WORDS-OF on it, there's a lot of ripples in terms of how that affects binding and other things.
 
7:08 AM
Anyway, if someone's going to put down someone else's efforts, they should have a competing effort which shows what they bring to the table. I want Sunanda and Maxim's complete overview of the coherence model of UNSET! and NONE! in Rebol and Red. Then I'll put my paper and test cases up against theirs.
We can talk about everything ranging from how to handle missing elements from maps to how to have optional parameters to functions, to round-tripping with LOAD and MOLD.
 
I really don’t think that’s how it works. Just because you think it needs overhaul, doesn’t mean others have to write some counter-proposal.
 
Just explain why the current model is so coherent it doesn't need anyone to try alternatives.
 
I don’t know. If people who are really using Rebol for years to do actual work do not have problem with current model, doesn’t it mean that it’s good enough?
 
If they consider Rebol's adoption and evolution rate to be satisfactory, then I guess not.
 
Do you really think that some NONE! vs UNSET! problem is the main reason for current Rebol adoption?
 
7:18 AM
I think that the relevance of the language over the long term, if it is to matter at all, has something to do with polishing its edges so that the "game" in it is coherent and has a bit of a timeless element to it.
To me it is more like a game or a kind of art form than it is a truly viable way to write compositional software of a significant size.
 
If you were right, how do you explain popularity of notoriously incoherent languages like PHP or JS?
 
Right place at the right time.
In those cases.
No one would be using JavaScript today if it hadn't been put into web browsers.
 
And PHP?
 
The ability to put code directly into a web page at that time was expedient, and it gave just the right set of parts to make the kinds of web pages that were needed at the time.
I'd say that was a success-begets-success story, it got penetration enough into ISPs and distributions where you expected PHP to be on any hosted service you got
So that was its "web browser" equivalent
It was effectively built into the hosting services
 
It was built into hosting services because people required it.
 
7:26 AM
Anyway, regarding the question of whether unset! and none! are the single most important thing to attack in order to make Rebol popular, and could it succeed if it didn't have a good clear story for beginners... probably not. But it's important. I also think having coherent stories for the way the bindings work, being able to write function [x] [y: 10 | return function [z] [x + y + z]] and know it will work, etc. are all big deals.
Just putting together all the normal questions a prudent language designer might want to solve first before finding out whether you run on 50 platforms or not.
And as far as I know, Red is going along doing whatever, so if you want proof of whatever level of critical and adoption success you get with doing it again, that's where to look.
If it ever catches on, people will one day come along and start asking some questions about things that don't work, and it would be nice if there were some answers already mapped and thought out about the possibilities that do work.
 
 
1 hour later…
8:50 AM
posted on March 10, 2016 by qtxie

FIX: report an error when encounter an invalid UTF-8 string by qtxie

 
 
4 hours later…
12:38 PM
@rebolek Go censorship. You rock.
 
@HostileFork What censorship?
 
Oh, just someone flagging my comment. You're the only one here, but, whatever.
 
 
1 hour later…
2:07 PM
Emscripten news: hello-word working in node.js, not yet in browser
 
@giuliolunati Thanks for some good news, there! It would be very neat if it could be loaded into the repl.it...
 
@HostileFork I don't understand most of what you do, I didn't like your changes (how dare you change that) and I find that ren-c is better than Rebol ever was. Rebol may be good enough for a lot of things, but it is dead and no one seems to really care. ren-c is its only future now.
 
@ingo "I didn't like your changes" sounds backwards to the rest, so assuming so, thanks...
Indeed, the thing I don't get about the people complaining is exactly what kind of alternative they want. It seems most of what they have to gain is to depress and demoralize me. And because that seems all they have to gain, it really does make me feel pretty justifiably angry. I don't see what they're doing that's so great that gives them that right.
 
Yuppie, so it was I didn't like it, but wit time I was able to see what has become of it.
Yup p
Yup + autocorrection... don't you love itm
?
 
2:24 PM
Oh. Well. Anyway, changes are experiments, the thing to remember is that in a controlled environment you can try new things and then switch them around...if the decisions are properly localized.
 
I don't either.
Well that's all beg
Behind the scenes, so Invisible to someone just staying on the ​Rebol level.
Don't type on a train:-)
 
Even if you try new things, and then ultimately don't keep them, if you do you can find out what the "killer reason" to use one way vs. another is...so you can have a reasoned and quick argument about it.
I want an understanding of this "present in the object but not set" vs. "not in the object" from a practical perspective. Is there truly a sensible reason to have print mold obj and get back make object! [a: #[unset] b: 10], or is there more sense in getting back just make object! [b: 10]. What alternatives are there.
Rebol prides itself on being a big box of parts, and there have been all kinds of tricks pulled out... like :foo not generating an error if foo is unset while foo does. There's a lot of code to consider and even more now that Ren-C has FRAME! and stack traces. So maybe there's some way of putting it all together that could elide "unset values" from object fields and in blocks.
But the idea of "being there for binding purposes, if anyone asks" yet not actually being set is a pretty entrenched concept. However, mostly what I think this matters for where forcing the use of a "NONE!" isn't sufficient is function arguments that wish to operate on "voids", e.g. some-function () where that's not an error... and in addition to not being an error, is distinguishable from a NONE!
 
2:50 PM
@HostileFork I haven’t flagged your comment. I don’t even know it’s possible.
 
Well whoever then.
 
@HostileFork look, I may disagree with some of your design decisions but I want to have civilized debate about it and I certainly do not want to censor anyone.
2
 
Okay, I believe you.
 
Also, nobody has to gain some right to have different ideas than you. People are different.
 
I raised the question of what is there to gain. What's the point. Really, if people just want me to quit, I mean... heck. Why don't I save myself some time? I can't really count the tremendous amount of life benefit this is giving me...the contrary actually. But people apparently don't want debuggers, don't want definitionally scoped returns, don't want specific binding and want to sit around having to decide whether to use FUNC or CLOS forever...
Don't want function specialization, don't want the ability to employ variadics when it would help, don't want bugs fixed, just want to tear down the work of someone actually working instead of actually doing things. So yes, I think people do have to earn the right to tear down someone's work.
 
3:07 PM
I really don’t think that anybody wants to tear down your work.
 
@HostileFork Check the history. StackExchange deleted it, not rebolek.
 
@MarkI I didn't say he had the power to do it. Someone flags it, then it goes to a little pop up thing on the left, and then people vote to say yay or nay. (I have the same dashboard)
 
Oh, OK, I wasn't around, didn't see that.
 
If you're at X point level you get to vote on flags, "valid" or "invalid" or "not sure"
 
So there's something hanging around there now that I can't see? Or do you see it as just "deleted", as I do.
 
3:13 PM
Nevermind, you once accused me I deliberately replaced part of my avatar picture with white block (it’s a pole) so I can live with another accusation.
 
Thinking about it, it could have been me, while trying to handle the mobile client on a rocking train. If so, I apologize.
 
Well, anyway, all far afield from the basic questions of whether I should bother to continue working on this or not. I wasn't for a while, then I was actually kind of feeling a bit better for a bit and decided to tinker with some directions I had. But it wasn't long (e.g. less than 24 hours) before some crap happened that made me regret it.
 
@HostileFork Stiff upper lip, what. Damn the torpedos.
 
3:35 PM
Anyway, tried the VARARGS! answer...which is basically that if you take an optional argument, you don't get the argument-or-an-unset, you get a value you have to test for emptiness and if it's not empty then you take the value out if it isn't. It's a bit awkward, but kind of a parallel to c++'s std::optional or other wrapper-class approaches. I guess the question there is "how common are arguments where you're willing to take an unset".
 
Um ... anybody know what the story is with the system/intrinsic object? I can't find it in my Rebol 3 Alpha. Should I be able to?
 
You know, I am 100% sure that Sunanda did not mean it as an attack. It was supposed to just show, how complicated discussions we can have with Rebol, even if we claim that Rebol is simple.
 
Well, that I'll agree with.
 
Intrinsic, I do vaguely remember. I will dig some old alpha, I have many of them :-)
hmm, since r3-a31 :-)
@MarkI probe system/intrinsic .... is your friend
 
@HostileFork Please try Emscripten Hello-World online! :-)
5
 
3:42 PM
@giuliolunati Nice! Good to have a Ren-C build up and running of it, first we've seen...
The VARARGS! isn't necessarily that completely awful, because a lot of functions that take optional arguments do so to shortcut. So they could just say if empty? arg [return whatever] | arg: take arg | ... do stuff with arg....
 
@HostileFork You can do the same with block!
 
Yes. Though the idea is foo x () where the second argument is optional. It could come in as a block that is empty or containing one element.
The thing about VARARGS! is it already exists for the purpose and is a little more informative (you know from its type it's some kind of parameter pack), plus the interface is more restrictive.
Also, being able to make an optimized VARARGS! case that doesn't require a series allocation.
 
>> probe system/intrinsic
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-invalid-path.html
    *** ERROR
** Script error: cannot access intrinsic in path system/intrinsic
** Where:
** Near: try load/all join %/users/try-REBOL/data/ system/script/args...
 
@giuliolunati this web site ( giuliolunati.no-ip.org/r3.html ) has been blocked because it has been determined by Web Reputation Filters to be a security threat to your computer or the organization's network. This web site has been associated with malware/spyware
 
3:54 PM
Unfortunately, VARARGS! chaining wouldn't work for the optional parameters. The way VARARGS! chains is that it assumes you aren't actually taking a variable number of varargs packs. (You can take a varargs! parameter, just not a varargs! <...> parameter... unless hard quoted.) But consider the VARARGS? test which wants to say VARARGS? () is false...
 
@MarkI thank you for report. It's my home server. I hate Web Reputation Filters.
 
So while you wouldn't say arg [varargs! <...>], you might reasonably say arg [<opt> varargs!]. This means one <opt> argument couldn't just pass through its <opt> argument, it would have to TAKE it first in case it was an optional varargs.
 
Further info:
Reason: BLOCK-MALWARE
Threat Type: othermalware
Threat Reason: Domain reported and verified as serving malware. IP addresses are not typically used as legitimate web hosts.
Notification: WBRS
Sounds like your home server might be virused.
 
@MarkI No, it sounds like no-ip.org is an organization that gives out easy subdomains to random people.
Making it easy for Giulio who is good :-) to put up content, but also easy for other people who are bad to put up content.
 
@HostileFork Any ideas for solution to help giulio?
Well, and me I guess :)
(I took "home server" to mean giulio's machine was running httpd, I think now he meant "my IP server".)
 
4:00 PM
@MarkI system/intrinsic was removed after a99. Do you want me to send the output to your email, or that alpha to play with?
 
@pekr I actually already have the output, got it from google somehow. My question was more for any posts/blogs/whatever about why it's gone.
 
Ah, not sure. Was related to modules a bit. The best guy to ask is BrianH imo ....
 
@MarkI no-ip looks to tunnel into your computer by letting you pick a subdomain under their domain name to do it with. There's not much to do with blocks other than whitelist URLs.
 
Background:
http://www.rebol.net/cgi-bin/r3blog.r?view=0089
Where Carl says: This was made possible by the new system/intrinsic function dispatch methodology which is used for actions such as make on a port or module. It allows a native to call back into REBOL code for complex actions that are better off written at the higher level.
Piqued my curiosity severely.
 
@MarkI yes, my desktop is running apache, and has dynamic IP from no-ip. But I can move emscripten to my web provider (altervista.org)
 
4:21 PM
@giuliolunati Thanks!
 
@MarkI Try new emscripten build link, please!
3
 
@giuliolunati I kind of see the Rebol splash "screen", and I can add text to it, but I see no prompt, and can't do any expression evaluation.
Still really good work so far though!
 
@MarkI For now, it only print "Hello Emscripten!" after splash screen, and terminate.
 
@giuliolunati Well, I got that, so, kudos.
 
@MarkI Thank you for confirmation!
 
 
4 hours later…
8:24 PM
@johnk @earl I regret to report it appears as though something got lost in the CC import, namely, ticket #1692.
Currently is a Dummy but 1692 is in CC (and has cool BrianH module stuff in it).
Also it is referred to by #1695.
Hm. Looks like all four Dummies #1690 through #1693 are actually failed imports. All BrianH's module work too -- conspiracy theorists are excited :)
Maybe I should look at all the Dumdums ...
 
why are we flagging old messages which probably are not offensive ??
 
Oy, stop flagging shit
 
8:39 PM
@HostileFork FYI someone is flagging you from 14 hours ago
talking about maxim or something
 
And not the magazine, much to my disappointment
 
I was actually shocked to see flags raised form this room. I think it is the first time?
 
@rlemon I think somebody claimed it was accidental. Otherwise yes, it would be the first time.
 
9:10 PM
@ingo "I find that ren-c is better than Rebol ever was." - interesting. What is it you are basing your finding upon, taking into account that you don't like the changes?
@rebolek "Also, nobody has to gain some right to have different ideas than you." - I must say that I am lost, since I do not understand what you wanted to tell.
 
9:26 PM
Regarding #[unset!] - I once wrote an analysis that looks to have been accepted by Gabriele when writing his Topaz interpreter. This is where behaviour of the Topaz interpreter can be tested.
 
9:36 PM
@MarkI @MarkI thanks for finding that. It looks like a bug in the import code which silently dropped out after loading a code example with a rebol header in the code example. We can add in these tickets manually
Might be a bit of a pain as a quick count against cc tickets shows over 100
 
@johnk Indeed.
 
Good evening, in R2 (gui), can we have multiple styles to a one element? For example I want to display text: abc and I want a and c to have a red color, b to be blue color.
 
@MarkI Thank you for finding the problem, I am glad you did.
 
@MarkI looks like I'll have to go through the API and automate it instead. I've been busy the last few months with other work, but I will come and clean this up soon
 
@johnk Thanks, no rush.
@Ladislav Any chance you preserved that analysis? I would dearly love to read it!
 
9:48 PM
Anyone R2 expert can help @DarekNędza ?
 
@MarkI Will try to find it, but it is definitely not in this computer.
 
@Ladislav Thanks, I am crossing my fingers. We desperately need all the perspectives we can get on the UNSET/NONE problem.
 
@giuliolunati works on my phone as well. Good work!
 
10:40 PM
@rlemon These people are pathetic to start with.
They're not even here.
Well, apparently read it and might be here, but don't talk here.
They prefer to make their commentary elsewhere, but I was sent their comments and reposted them here.
 
lame
 
10:59 PM
>> type-of ()
== none!
>> all [1 () 2]
== none
foo: func [x] [type-of :x] foo ()
== none!
That's what Topaz does, which looks to more or less say there are no unsets. I think it's a less interesting idea in general, because all [if condition [x] | y | z] seems better to me such that if condition is false then x is not taken into account at all, vs short-circuiting the whole ALL to false.
 
11:14 PM
Topaz is far too incomplete to judge in terms of the general impacts on a system of such a decision.
 

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