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01:01
Is there a reason why that isn't in the standard library? I feel like it would be a very common thing, especially since there is no scope limitation..
01:15
@kennycoc I guess it's one of those things that really only applies to the quirky nature of console usage. My approach above is somewhat slapdash—it wouldn't be that difficult to write a script that includes all the 'protected' words and unset anything in system/words that isn't on the list.
Indeed, this should do it: reset-words.r
Although you're probably better doing it using user.r as that way you don't clear anything you added in user.r.
(my method for collecting that group of words was collect [foreach word words-of system/words [if value? word [keep word]]])
rebol2> a: b: c: d: lol: "LOL!"
probe reduce [a b c d lol]
do reb4.me/x/reset-words.r
probe reduce [a b c d lol]
01:37
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
["LOL!" "LOL!" "LOL!" "LOL!" "LOL!"]
*** ERROR
code: 300
type: script
id: no-value
arg1: a
arg2: none
arg3: none
near: [a b c d lol]
where: none


** Script Error: do-commands has no value
** Near: foreach line do-commands [print line]
print
>>
Less pink, more 4x/8x geometry.
 
1 hour later…
03:02
@rgchris I'll update the logo tonight - looks good
03:14
Is rebolbot a big bigger?
You mean the current logo? No—it's very slightly smaller. The two images above are the same size.
 
5 hours later…
08:15
@redbot hey.
What?
I've never cared for the term mold. It looks too much like... well, mold. I wonder if stringify is a better name. That's what JSON uses. Also perhaps SAVE could return the string if you gave none as a target. save none value That would increase discovery and you could teach LOAD and SAVE together, then mention that STRINGIFY also exists as a synonym for save none.
Alternately, SAVE could reverse the arguments so that SAVE value made a string and SAVE/TO took a target.
What's wrong with mold? Stringify is 2x longer and sounds terrible to me.
08:32
@rebolek I'm not surprised that you don't think anything's wrong with the status quo. :-) To a native English speaker, MOLD is an "ugly" word that has very little association to suggest what it does. There is no parity with something like UNMOLD; it is a kind of random word.
@HostileFork Well, I'm not native speaker, so I have no problem with words like mold, rejoin etc :)
Makes your code look "moldy" :-)
I am still hoping to take care of REJOIN by killing the other REs where RE is REduce, and have RE in REJOIN mean "repeated".
so JOIN (JOIN "abc" "def") "ghi" would be the same as REJOIN ["abc" "def" "ghi"]. That seems good.
And if that were formalized so that it were actually true, then that would help people understand what exactly REJOIN does.
A speedier native that has that behavior, but runs just like if you ran the joins in a loop
Then axe REFORM, REMOLD, and whatever the other one was. I think that's a fair compromise.
reform is ridiculous.
"reform that block!"
@HostileFork How is it compromise? You want to remove some functions because you don't like their names, that's more like genocide than a compromise ;)
"It has bad behavior, and needs a good speaking to."
@rebolek It's not just a matter of not liking them, it's about them not being coherent.
what on earth does stringify mean?
08:41
You wind up with a gibberish language where people might think they are learning a rule, when the rule is not applicable. If REXXX doesn't mean XXX REDUCE FOO as a pattern, then there is no pattern.
No pattern, your language is gibberish.
If you want 100% pattern you use asm.
@GrahamChiu Well it's just the word they use. JSON.parse and JSON.stringify. It's something JavaScript people know.
good for them
I'd rather we spent the effort on getting the websites done, the language finished vs fixing nuances in Rebol2
@GrahamChiu If wishes were horses. But the thing is, there's only a bit of time to influence Red before it canonizes those Rebol2 errors forever. Right now it's not looking too good for Rebol; it simply will not be able to advance if something doesn't change about the overall process.
08:46
Rebol means to reduce bo
It means to repeat bol.
It's simple, clear and explained rebol.net/cookbook/recipes/0015.html I don't understand how anyone can have problem with it.
rejoin means to reduce and join vs ajoin which just joins without reducing
@rebolek "REJOIN is similar to REFORM on a block but does not insert spaces." It breaks the pattern.
@GrahamChiu It doesn't mean that.
>> help rejoin
08:50
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
USAGE:
    REJOIN block

DESCRIPTION:
    Reduces and joins a block of values.
    REJOIN is a function value.

ARGUMENTS:
    block -- Values to reduce and join (block!)
@RebolBot
my-rejoin: function [blk [block!]] [
    join reduce blk
]
my-rejoin ["One plus one is: " 1 + 2]
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-no-arg.html
    *** ERROR
** Script error: join is missing its rest argument
** Where: my-rejoin
** Near: my-rejoin ["One plus one is: " 1 + 2]
You have it backwards. It's clearly stated that REJOIN is no repeated JOIN: JOIN is identical to REJOIN but takes two arguments. It was created to provide a join function similar to that found in other languages.
@rebolek Wow, it gets clearer and clearer.
I don't care what is written in a sentence on a webpage. You can write a webpage, or book, that can have pages and pages of explanation and respond to any question by pointing to that line and say "the book said so". There are large numbers of people, in some religions for instance, who do that.
Or you can look at what is before you and analyze it for whether it holds up and is coherent.
The relationship the words imply is that REXXX is XXX REDUCE. When the pattern falls down, that should give pause.
And what's troubling is that the words, at least to a native speaker, begin to look rather bizarre. Rebol tries to be a literate language. Would it function the same if COPY were called ZAP? You'd type one fewer letter per copy operation. And you could say "it's like you're zapping a new instance of the value into existence!" and go on your merry way
But if you have too many instance of this and people see it saying ZAP FUNCT REFORM MOLD all over the place, you start setting off alarms that you might be a crackpot.
FORM REDUCE isn't bad, and if there's a speed advantage to not having an intermediary then FORM/REDUCE via refinement is simply better than REFORM.
09:09
@HostileFork That's just your opinion.
@rebolek It's testable.
@HostileFork How?
@rebolek It's testable as to whether something is just my opinion or not by picking a target demographic, designing a test, having people make choices, and see what they prefer...to find if it's "just my opinon" or representative of what would make a better impression.
FUNCT was a terrible name, one letter off from FUNC which is already kind of a bad name, the absence or presence of a T having as its only precedence PRIN vs. PRINT.
@HostileFork Sounds like design by committee to me.
@rebolek Um. Sounds like design and metrics instead of anchoring oneself to a decision "just because that's how it's been".
The data we have so far is that not very many people use Rebol. I think changes making it look "less weird" are one axis of helping address it. The little things like PRIN and REFORM and MOLD are warts that "only a mother could love", as they say. And it's possible... for instance in the PRIN case, to turn that to PRINT/ONLY and have a leg-up on setting the stage for what /ONLY is when it's encountered later.
As opposed to looking like a language that drops the last letter off a function name each time you want a simpler version.
That's not literate, and it's not a good generalization.
I think already, having FUNCTION is going to be a big win. The fact that we haven't seen a sudden upswing in usage because of that change isn't proof it isn't going to be a help in how people perceive codebases. The FUNC /LOCAL stuff looks frightening by comparison.
And I don't think that's the last change to be considered in helping the code look healthier.
@rebolek We're talking about these things like changing the ? functions to always be those returning logical results, and the -of, and stuff like that. Is it a waste of time to think about, just because you never had a problem with it? One can argue that it doesn't matter what you call them, or you can think it's important to make things have some kind of sanity and inner logic.
Coherence is its own reward, I think.
And yes, I think the time to make those changes is now.
 
2 hours later…
11:31
>> a: 1
;comment test
print a
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
1
rebol3> 99%
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
== 99%
rebol2> 42
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
== 42
11:37
red> 1
Can you elaborate on that?
@rebolbot do/red 1
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
== 1
red> 1234
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> 1234
== 1234
11:46
Apologies for all the noise @iArnold. The good news is @rebolbot now responds to >>, rebol3>, rebol2> and works with multiline fixed width blocks (not forgetting comments)
@HostileFork I don't want millions of Javascript peoples telling me what Rebol should do. And I agree with Rebolek that there is nothing wrong with MOLD. And 'stringify' is absolute horror
@iArnold It's not necessarily a great name either, but I think mold is not very good.
So long as you don't change it to mould
@johnk I was reading a lot earlier on the page, the only thing is the scrollbar adapted a little.
@johnk LOL!
Speaking of JavaScript not making a lot of sense, their toString() is "implementation defined". It could apparently turn 4 into "four" and still be "standards compliant".
11:51
TO-REBOL-FORMAT or REBOLIZE would have been alternatives. MOLD is a short word, learn it to mean SHAPE in a certain form, like you use playdoh.
REJOIN should be made into JOIN. Afaict nobody here ever uses join and everybody uses REJOIN.
That's not going to happen, and apparently several people do use JOIN.
I liked ADJOIN for what JOIN is, and JOIN for what REJOIN is, but the resistance to that is very high. I think addressing the other REXXX functions and thinking about REJOIN as a REpeated JOIN is a good direction.
@HostileFork mold is very acceptable, keeps me from having to use stringify or toRebolFormat (don't you hate cAmElCaSe too :) )
I feel like there must be a better word out there, somewhere. flatten?
MOLD does not have any a priori semantics for "transform structure into string". If anything, I'd argue that it would be the opposite... when you mold clay you give it 3D structure and format when it didn't have that to begin with.
It's like "serialize" but that doesn't really bring in the "it's turning into a string" aspect.
@iArnold I use JOIN often. read join path file is common pattern.
red> print "no echo"
12:02
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
no echo
:)
I was trying to work out some early chapters to a Red/Rebol book in my mind and I really do want to talk about the data structure up front. The hope is that you can not throw people off immediately with "weird words" but have everything look nice and clean and sane.
REJOIN is a weird word, but that's why you have to introduce JOIN first and then relate it to REJOIN. And the idea that it's "reduce and then join" doesn't really hold water, because JOIN is not a block operation. So already, when trying to teach something very early and simple, you are up an explanatory creek.
>> a: "abc" join a "def"
I think you confuse the action of joining something with the Rebol function of same name.
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
== "abcdef"
12:08
I think a language in which the action of joining things is not adequately captured by it's use of the name would be the confused one, not I.
If rejoin [a b c] were guaranteed equivalent to join (join a b) c then that seems like a pretty good leg to stand on in introducing the concept.
12:24
Good code golf option for rebol
11
Q: Self containing logs

David MulderThe "problem" Define a function log which when called will log/print/write (whatever is the default for the language in question) both the instruction (as source) and the first argument. In other words: i=777 j=333 log(i) //outputs: "log(i) 777" log(i+j+1) //outputs: "log(i+j+1) 1111" For all...

possible solution
log: func[p][print["log[" p "]" reduce p]]
>> log: func[p][print["log[" p "]" reduce p]]
log[1 + 2 + 3]
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
log[ 1 + 2 + 3 ] 6
Now if there was a way of getting to the log set-word from the function body it would be very impressive. Any improvements?
Late here, maybe I'll play with rebmu tomorrow
@johnk Always interested to see that!
rebmu> p"mu"
I'm afraid I can't do that Brian
yet :)
12:54
Welcome to the Rebol and Red room. See our FAQ. Cool, you have a reputation score of 26 so chat away!
13:44
@HostileFork so this is what you are thinking?
>> rejoin [add 3 3]
== "6"
>> join (join 'add 3) 3
== "add33"
>> join (join add 3) 3
** Script Error: add expected value2 argument of type: number pair char money date time tuple
** Where: halt-view
** Near: join add 3
@RebolBot delete
@kealist Well it still has to reduce it.
There's a lot of details on this such as that I think NONE in a REJOIN for a string should be skipped, we were doing some kind of prototype hammering out why JOIN "foo" none would just give you "foo" and there were non obvious things in the behavior.
@HostileFork If rejoin becomes join, what is the purpose of having a repeated join (new rejoin)?
@kealist If JOIN took a block and didn't reduce it, and REJOIN took a block and did reduce it, and the current JOIN became ADJOIN that would be something that would actually make sense.
Then JOIN would be a repeated process of ADJOINing two things together.
@HostileFork Can you show me an example, have a hard time visualizing it
14:00
join ["hello" add 3 3 "world"] => "helloadd33world"
rejoin ["hello" add 3 3 "world"] => "hello6world"
adjoin "hello" add 3 3 => "hello6"
That's what I would prefer, if I thought the RExxx pattern was actually good, which I don't. The words make the otherwise-literate language look somewhat bonkers. (reform, remold, rejoin). I'd rather switch it to:
join/only ["hello" add 3 3 "world"] => "helloadd33world"
join ["hello" add 3 3 "world"] => "hello6world"
adjoin "hello" add 3 3 => "hello6"
>> print ["Ask yourself why this isn't called" reverse "TNIRPER" "???"]
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
Ask yourself why this isn't called REPRINT ???
If one realizes why it's not called REPRINT, and how nonsensical that would be, you can start seeing REJOIN and other warts in that light of "hm, this really looks kind of bad"
14:58
@johnk Looks good... give it a go!
Slightly shorter version would be:
log: func[p][print["log[" p "]" do p]]
@RebolBot
log: func[p][print["log[" p "]" do p]]
@RebolBot log: func[p][print["log[" p "]" do p]] log[1 + 2 + 3]
@draegtun Can you elaborate on that?
I wish I could! :) Anyway this would come in at same length (34.2!) as the current top answer (written in C) on votes.
There is a smaller Bash answer (18.9) floating around there to. So this Rebol answer would be joint second on size if you enter it @johnk
@HostileFork I think I would prefer this
>> help mold
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
USAGE:
    MOLD value /only /all /flat

DESCRIPTION:
    Converts a value to a REBOL-readable string.
    MOLD is a native value.

ARGUMENTS:
    value -- The value to mold (any-type!)

REFINEMENTS:
    /only -- For a block value, mold only its contents, no outer []
    /all -- Use construction syntax
    /flat -- No indentation
>> func[p][print["log[" p "]" do p]] log[1 + 2 + 3]
15:10
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-no-value.html
    *** ERROR
** Script error: log has no value
** Where:
** Near: try load/all join %/users/try-REBOL/data/ system/script/args...
interesting!? :)
>> log: func[p][print["log[" p "]" do p]] log[1 + 2 + 3]
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
log[ 1 + 2 + 3 ] 6
If mold were to be explicitly clear, it's hard to think of something that doesn't include "string" in it. twine braid en-twine entwine
splice
but splice sounds more like join
Welcome to the Rebol and Red room. See our FAQ. Cool, you have a reputation score of 41 so chat away!
15:53
@draegtun Posting your solution?
Welcome to the Rebol and Red room. See our FAQ. Cool, you have a reputation score of 1265 so chat away!
@draegtun Can shave off a few characters (to 35): log: func[p][print[{log[}p{]}do p]]
16:24
>> log: func[p] [print[{log}mold p mold/only do p]]
log [join "4" 4]
log [1 + 2]
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
log [join "4" 4] "44"
log [1 + 2] 3
Trying to make it a little more flexible
@RebolBot delete
16:44
Posted, feel free to modify
0
A: Self containing logs

kealistRebol3 - 31.5 (35 - 10 %) Here is a simple implementation shortened from @draegtun that works well for numbers: log: func[p][print[{log[}p{]}do p]] Running it outputs: >> log: func[p][print[{log[}p{]}do p]] >> i: 777 >> j: 333 >> log [i] log[ 777 ] 777 >> log[i + j + 1] log[ i + j + 1 ] 1111...

I can't figure out how to get red to output a red/system file instead of an exe
@kennycoc what do you mean by Red/System file?
Oh, got it. I haven't seen that. There is no option flag listed on the compile instructions for that
Well, the documentation says it compiles the red code into red/system and then compiles it to an exe
To see the intermediary Red/System code generated by the compiler, use:

; >> do/args %red.r "-v 2 %tests/hello.red"
That's from the README.md
But it only prints what it is doing to the console
Is -r the option?
-r, --no-runtime               : Do not include runtime during Red/System
                                 source compilation.
Doesn't look like it, but I'll try
Nope. On the console it looked about the same as if I'd said "-v 3" and it didn't output any file
Probably because it was a red source file, not red/system
17:13
Welcome to the Rebol and Red room. See our FAQ. Cool, you have a reputation score of 519 so chat away!
@HostileFork What about APPEND ? Red has no join iirc, it has append.
 
1 hour later…
18:26
Raunak, Manipal, India
1.2k 7 13
Welcome to the Rebol and Red room. See our FAQ. Cool, you have a reputation score of 1153 so chat away!
18:39
Okay, new blackhighlighter.org homepage with animation. That animation is 440K, which isn't too bad.
@HostileFork Nice!
Tx. It goes without saying that was a PITA to make.
But, necessary
19:00
I can't tell if people really love videos because they're lazy, or if no one lines them and they're just a marketing fad..
 
1 hour later…
20:20
@HostileFork check "popuularity"
I had some comment about a s p e l l i n g c h e c k e r and i ended up with unpublished comments with parsererror (retry / cancel) and all I could do to get rid of that was to logout and login again..
be warned
20:38
@HostileFork what about a diagram?
21:06
@kealist Carl's R3 serial impl is for Linux only, would that be enough for your needs?
@earl I'm too tied to Rebol2 for the project I'm working on (UniServe and encapping being the reasons mainly) and on Windows. Reimplementing a serial interface library ATM. I'm not too worried about serial for Rebol3, just get the ball rolling along if possible :)
I have noticed that there are very few serial sniffing applications for x64 on Windows
@kealist Ok, thanks for clarifying.
@earl Not sure if you had seen the context from Altme, I had put this together Carl's talk
@kealist Yes, thanks. I've that open in a tab :)
Was just wondering if there's an immediate need for anyone. Otherwise it won't bubble up my priority list much, I fear :)
21:28
@earl serial port comms means we could then communicate with modems
So, if you want to control a cellphone to send and receive sms, you need serial via usb
But I don't have any immediate need :)
I was quite interested in controlling power devices as Carl was doing and was hoping he would push all his work ...
After an annoying day, I finally got a response
@kealist controlling a serial device in Rebol2?
@GrahamChiu Yes
what sort of device?
Robot!
The supplied DLL works mostly, but crashes Rebol on some necessary functions
21:36
@kealist vacuum cleaner??
The iRobot roombas and other vacuum cleaners are the most widely deployed household "robots"
@GrahamChiu Good thought, but no. Linkbot
@iArnold Thanks for the catch; running a spellchecker is a good idea...
22:38
@RebolBot delete
red> print "I have a fancy new icon!"
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
I have a fancy new icon!
Nice convention .. robot icons are bracketted.
@kealist are you a bot too ?
>> a: 1
b: 2
print [ "multiline fixed font test:" a + b ]
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
multiline fixed font test: 3
kewl ... Thanks @johnk
@grahamchiu just replaced <br> with newline and voila. The src is back on github as always
23:03
@GrahamChiu So is Rebol's favicon going to just become o? Someone should have told me, because it was a pain drawing the whole thing in 16x16
Ah .. yeah, I saw the incoming JSON which had ^M instead of <br>
@HostileFork nah .. I was just jesting
>> print "What happens to <br> inside strings :( ?"
@GrahamChiu What do you mean?
uh oh .. bug time
I guess it's acceptable limitation unless someone wants to improve the parser
@HostileFork so are we nearly done with your rebolbot requests?
@RebolBot
if 1 < 2 [
    print "indentation is the biggie for me"
]
>> alive?
23:14
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-no-value.html
    *** ERROR
** Script error: alive? has no value
** Where:
** Near: try load/all join %/users/try-REBOL/data/ system/script/args...
>> if true [
    print "indentation works"
]
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
indentation works
>>
if true [
    print "indentation works"
]
Ok, doesn't work if you use a blank line
Ok, updated the issue to reflect this.
btw, the blank line was supposed to be a 'do but now using >> assumes a do so the blank line is now redundant.
23:39
I've been up almost 24 hours now doing this stupid homepage and animation thing. Just tested it on a laptop and realized that I needed less text before the animation. blackhighlighter.org - I forget how little vertical resolution people have sometimes.
The actual impetus to bite the bullet and do it is because I got contacted by someone who saw "hire the fork", and wanted to know if I was available for a project, and I said I was kind of busy but if he'd test blackhighlighter and give me some feedback then I'd give him a free consultation on his problem.
The animation is something I asked for initially but you replied that it was an admission of poor design if it weren't intuitive enough.
And he said that he didn't get what to do from the write page, and thought it needed to start with a top level overview. Which I intended to do--it is important. But I'm still a bit frustrated that as laboriously and methodically step-by-step the demo is, that people look at it and go "what do I do?"
Yes, it's frustrating to me that I apparently have not made it clear enough without it.
The animation is an improvement but I would like a diagram to show how it works.
A flowchart?
something like that.
23:44
Oddly the guy who contacted me wanted to hire someone to build a flowchart-based process tool
As it is the animation perhaps would be better as a slide show. It goes too quickly for me and I've used the product too!
The animation generator does diffs in a weird way: Animated GIFs the hard way
It does diffs on the frames, input as PNGs (won't work with transparent ones, I found that out the hard way, after generating 40 frames with transparency). The input expects each frame to be named like screen_XXXXXXXXX.png where XXXXXXXXX is digits representing timestamps in milliseconds.
I wrote a Rebol script that takes a list of time deltas and will go through and rename the files as ordered to turn the deltas into absolute timestamps, so I can change it all. If you think it's more or less right but just want the timings all doubled, I could do that pretty easily.
The animation generator itself is a good example of something that Rebol should be able to do.
Anyway, since this is a new concept for most people, we need to see a flowchart :)
I find it interesting and a bit sad that it is new. I've looked around and there's all kinds of redaction stuff, for lawyers and such, but it's mostly about being unaccountable. Figuring out how to scrub any hidden undo information or metadata which might have tagged along in a Word Document, for instance.
Accountable redaction is sort of a contradiction in terms, as they are used today.

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