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12:00 AM
@HostileFork Doesn't look that orphaned to me. That's a chicken and egg issue. Somewhere, someone has to do the first bind :)
LOAD is a mezzanine, so who binds & evaluates LOAD's code?
 
@earl Well maybe for bootstrap, but it's getting called each time you type in a line.
 
@HostileFork Which is an effect of how the console is implemented currently.
 
@earl So there seems to be some vestigial code in PARSE that looks like it was once designed to try and evaluate functions. I can't see how it would work at all, though. Get_Parse_Value and Do_Path
Firstly, it evaluates the path and then turns around and returns whatever you passed in, so you start with a path and end with one too. But even if you took the result of the Do_Path that's only finding the function... e.g. if it was obj/fn . Evaluation looks like another step.
 
@HostileFork Sorry, my mind is currently elsewhere :)
 
@BrianH Help here --^ I'm trying to make PARSE able to note when there's a non-keyword that is a function, and evaluate it and use the evaluation result as the rule. Requiring some understanding of the Do logic.
 
12:09 AM
@HostileFork I think that might be used when running Rebol interactively.
@HostileFork this already happens in reverse. DO is its own foundational DO_BLOCK native, which calls the mezzanine code when it gets a string, file or url. Or binary, if my fix goes through.
@HostileFork sorry, my mind is elsewhere too, work crunch.
 
posted on October 03, 2013 by abolka

[Comment] Fix submitted as pull request: https://github.com/rebol/r3/pull/117 (Sorry for having forgot to mention the pending fix in this ticket earlier.)

 
@earl, as you may have noticed, I wrote github.com/rebol/rebol/pull/153 and tested it successfully in 0.4.4 However, in 0.4.40 and 0.3.3 (both 64-bit) the interpreter crashes during startup. Since I do not think it is anything in the code I wrote, I guess there is some GC issue that is not easily reproducible in 32-bit interpreter versions.
 
@Ladislav I saw some messages passing by, thanks for the explicit ping.
I got the impression that you had a fix which worked with 64-bit as well and reworked it to be more efficient at which point it stopped working with 64b. Is that right?
 
My argument that it is not anything in the code I wrote is based on a sufficiently different implementation I tested with the same effect.
@earl No, I did not have any implementation that I tested successfully with 64b.
 
@Ladislav Ok, I misunderstood.
 
12:21 AM
Although I can imagine that if I gave up using binding table, I could obtain a sufficiently inefficient implementation that might behave differently
What strikes me is that (not as frequently, maybe) 64-bit implementations already work with some code using binding table
@BrianH, am I right guessing that append obj ... is used quite frequently during interpreter startup?
 
It's used in sys/load_header, for instance, and some of the other load, do and module stuff.
For one-word expansions I prefer to use set bind/new word object value instead though, less overhead.
We do a lot of object expansions in the script/module stuff, usually with bind.
 
12:49 AM
@Ladislav For a start, I can reproduce the crash. master+append-obj seems to work fine. master+64-bit+append-obj works fine as 32b build; the 64b build segfaults during startup.
 
@earl Yes.
Also, curiously enough, Zeng's struct rearrangements don't help improve speed of R3 (they actually slow down 32-bit R3 here for no reason apparent to me)
 
(Crashes in Get_Var at src/core/c-frame.c:1195.)
 
@earl Interesting
 
1:14 AM
Could it be -1 (SELF) causing trouble?
 
1:49 AM
posted on October 03, 2013 by fork

[Comment] This has been complicated by me learning that there is nothing special about /local, and that refinements can be used as a method of declaring local variables. e.g. foo: func [value /local x y z] [ ... ] is rather similar to: foo: func [value /x /y /z] [ ... ] Given this equivalence, it starts to seem a bit weird that these refinements would be initializing x, y, and z to

 
2:01 AM
posted on October 03, 2013 by BrianH

[Comment] That method of quickly declaring local variables is pretty common in user code, particularly experienced user code. We don't do it in mezzanine code, but that is held to a different standard. If this goes through, this practice will likely die out in Rebol 3 code. There is a lot of code that will continue to work with this proposal, and a lot that will fail in ways that will be diffi

posted on October 03, 2013 by earl

WAIT with a timeout internally encodes the timeout in milliseconds. The actual POSIX host implementation however passes this value as a timeout in microseconds. This leads to a de-facto busy loop when WAITing, as the internal timeouts are simply too short. Originally discovered by Richard Smolak. Independently reported by Bohdan Lechnowsky.

 
 
4 hours later…
6:03 AM
@DocKimbel Hi. On XP I get this:
D:\red>red 1.red
'C:\Documents' is not recognized as an internal or external command,
operable program or batch file.
 
6:20 AM
@DocKimbel @HostileFork I spent a few hours exploring Red's `probe system/words` and came up with this: https://github.com/red/red/wiki/Red-exploratory-reference
Before I wrote it I wished there was such thing so I hope it helps others.
 
 
3 hours later…
9:11 AM
@SoleSoul Do you still have red defined as a batch file or somewhere else in your search PATH?
 
9:39 AM
@DocKimbel No. This is another machine. I run it from the same folder.
@DocKimbel Red works, but when I supply a command line argument this is what I get.
D:\Red>red ljwrkl;jkhawsdrf
'C:\Documents' is not recognized as an internal or external command,
operable program or batch file.
Doesn't matter what I write.
Even if it's a legal file name.
red -c 1.red
**does** work.
Does the encapper have a cache in the home folder?
 
@SoleSoul No cache AFAIK.
I cannot reproduce your error on my XP image...
 
@DocKimbel What can I test? It happens...
 
@SoleSoul Please try with this version I just built, it will show the path used to launch the script. I need to see that path first in order to reproduce the issue.
 
It first says "precompiling the red console"
@DocKimbel This one does work
but
D:\Red>red-xp 1.red
{"C:\Documents and Settings\All Users\Application Data\Red\console.exe"}
@DocKimbel The previous exe wasn't 'precompiled' on this machine
Dropbox copied it from another one.
 
9:57 AM
Strange...
 
I don't remember seeing it 'precompiling'. Does it make sense?
the previous one still doesn't work
 
It should always "precompile" the console on first use of console or script passed for direct execution.
 
What if I use two different exe's? shouldn't they use the same console.exe if its version matches?
 
@SoleSoul It relies on the modification date of console.exe to check for a need to compile a new one.
 
I don't know if it matters but the previous exe has a property "REBOL/Pro SDK System" while the new exe has "REBOL/Pro System". Probably doesn't matter, but this is the difference I found...
The new one is 40K smaller.
Where is the console.exe of the older red.exe then?
 
10:03 AM
Hmm, my default toolchain on my dev machine uses SDK 2.7.6 while the build farm uses SDK 2.7.8...
@SoleSoul console.exe is stored in your local CSIDL_COMMON_APPDATA folder, so it depends on your Windows version.
 
@DocKimbel I know where it is, I'm trying to find out if they both use the same file or not.
 
@SoleSoul Probably not as a "precompilation" was required for red-xp.exe, so a new console.exe was created.
 
@DocKimbel These versions are different.
The older says "Pre-compiling Red REPL..."
While the new one says 'console'
@DocKimbel and they use the same one for sure, because I deleted it twice, before running each one of them and they both compiled it again. The older one still doesn't work and the new one does.
 
@SoleSoul Then it's an older version, before I fixed #542.
 
@DocKimbel Well, yes, it seems like it.
I didn't know that it was already reported. I'll try searching better next time.
 
10:09 AM
Just drop the older red.exe version and replace it with the latest one, and it will work fine. :) I need to get 0.4.1 out soon, so we can pass that fix into a stable release.
As a rule of thumb, when you encounter a red binary issue, always try with the latest automated release first to see if the issue hasn't been fixed already.
 
@DocKimbel Got it. Thank you.
 
@SoleSoul Thank to you for reporting it anyway. ;-)
 
@DocKimbel Np. Sorry for wasting your time :)
 
 
2 hours later…
11:53 AM
@HostileFork & all: I just updated rebol.org/art-contribute-article.r to describe how to contribute new tests to the core-tests suite.
Updates to the documentation are welcome as well.
 
 
2 hours later…
1:49 PM
0
Q: How to send HTTP POST requests using only REBOL3?

dreamyTotoWhat is the simplest way of sending HTTP POST requests and getting response (in XML format for example) using only REBOL3 ? Is there an equivalent of using "read/custom" in REBOL2 for that purpose ? (as it is done in this question : http://stackoverflow.com/a/8693016 ) And what is the version o...

 
2:15 PM
@ladislav thanks for the core-tests intro. Very handy.
 
2:35 PM
@earl Aha, I was wrong thinking it could have anything in common with index. If that line crashes then frame must be a bad (but non-NULL) pointer.
 
 
2 hours later…
4:38 PM
How 'bout that?
Preliminary method for doing it is not supporting arguments. There's no good reason not to, and in fact there's a good reason to do it... as Do_Next only operates on series... and hence to accomplish this in the current way of parse it requires creating a temporary single element-series on each evaluation. It would be better to call the evaluation on the item parse is processing in place; though that will require more invasive code surgery.
Note that in this design, the evaluation is only done once per clause.
>> foo: func [] [print "foo was called" return "a"]
>> parse "aaaaa,aaaaa" [some foo "," some foo]
foo was called
foo was called
== true
Which is the right thing to be doing.
 
5:28 PM
Sometimes, I do have issues to understand people: github.com/red/red/issues/546
 
@DocKimbel Hm. You might lobby them to rename the repository redmatrix. It's a nice 8-character name.
And as we've seen, GitHub redirects after renames...
 
6:22 PM
@HostileFork I don't think that I can do anything about other's repo names. :)
 
@DocKimbel You never know unless you ask. You got GitHub to give you "red" and I'd think they'd be a bit less flexible than some person's project where the name is actually "redmatrix" anyway...
 
@HostileFork It's a bigger project which started before Red, so they might ask Github to force me to change the name. ;-)
 
@DocKimbel Well maybe wait to ask until after Red is bigger, then. :-)
 
@HostileFork Sure, we don't want to arm-wrestle with stronger than us. ;-P
 
6:47 PM
Temporary allocations removed, arguments working.
So now, @rgchris and friends, we need to define the pre-fabricating character sets so that little speedbump that makes people think RegEx is "so cool" is removed and Parse becomes quite a bit more unassailable.
 
@HostileFork Agreed. I know you've stated your preference (are they in CC?), at the very least we should cover the RegEx Character Sets.
The sets I have established in QuarterMaster are based on commonly encountered problems (and should probably be reviewed).
 
7:06 PM
uh? did not know we can use function value as a parameter to SOME?
 
letter => Alphanumeric characters
[letter || #"_"] => Alphanumeric characters plus "_"
not [letter || digit || #"_"] => Non-word characters
letter => Alphabetic characters
[space || tab] => Space and tab
character/control => Control characters
digit => Digits
not digit => Non-digits
[letter || symbol || digit] => Visible characters
letter/lower => Lowercase letters
[letter || symbol || digit || space] => Visible characters and the space character
symbol/punctuation => Punctuation characters
whitespace => Whitespace characters
Given that we have decent ways to union and deal with these I don't think we have to slavishly reproduce their sets if they're not used often and generally lame.
@pekr You can't until I send the pull request. :-)
Hm, maybe ascii/control is what we want.
Okay, so top level: ascii, letter, whitespace, symbol, digit
 
Which'd be better? [and not "0" digit] or [digit/non-zero].
 
@rgchris I'd prefer [and not "0" digit]... it seems uncommon enough to not throw in a hyphenated clause just for it. Also, in the design I'm envisioning here the character sets get created once and so each one we add has the potential to make another thing that hangs around...
This is the last thing I think I want up to be looked at by Carl, hopefully we can get him in for some maintenance this weekend. We need to get that console code and TLS code so we can decide what we're going to do about the HTTPS and such.
 
7:37 PM
@rgchris Can I appoint you as the CC-ticket maker for this one?
 
posted on October 04, 2013 by fork

[Wish] Parse currently allows variables which hold a block to serve in place of writing the block in the rule. So instead of writing: parse "aaabab" [some ["a" || "b"]] You can write: a-or-b-rule: ["a" || "b"] parse "aaabab" [some a-or-b-rule] However you cannot do a similar thing with functions: or-b-rule: func [value] [reduce [value `|| "b"]] parse "aaabab" [some or-

 
7:59 PM
posted on October 04, 2013 by hostilefork

This could well not be quite right, but that's why I'm submitting it for review. It appears to basically work. I noticed that in order to use Do_Next, the point of invocation needed to pass in a series and an index. Parse didn't have the actual REBSER on hand once you got into the guts of it... it was passed the VAL_BLK_DATA and then iterated to the end of it. So most of the change was jus

 
8:10 PM
@Ladislav @earl Where are we on this indexing compromise w/@DocKimbel? Does it have a CC ticket? A pull request?
 
8:20 PM
Also, we need to start R3-Backward. Where should this repository be started and cloned from? Does it matter? (it shows up in the "cloned from" field and I think people generally assume that's the canon...)
 
8:38 PM
I'm going to ask Carl if he can come chat this weekend... I'll wait until end-of-workday
 
8:56 PM
if/else sucks. Has it ever provably gotten someone who didn't like Rebol to give it a second look and decide they liked it after all, because it has an /else refinement on IF?
As far as I can tell that's the only reason it's there. So I'm asking: has that ever worked?
I'm all for removing speedbumps to new users, but it sucks enough that I think if we were to get "see also" links into the help and bring up EITHER and UNLESS for that one, it would be better.
 
9:12 PM
I think standing up for "either" and "unless" is the right angle here. It becomes a talking point. If there's an if/else then there should be an unless/else too, and there shouldn't be, so basically I think the problem is best solved by not having it.
 
9:42 PM
posted on October 04, 2013 by hostilefork

Implementation of CC #2063 which makes these natives allow any value in their then/else slots. Blocks are evaluated as before. Needed to add R_ARG4, but wouldn't have to in the case that if/else were abandoned (which it should be! no one wants to get Rebol code with if/else in it...)

 
@HostileFork +1 Either you get used to it or.. use another programming language!
 
@iArnold Of if you really want it that badly, write your own wrapper and redefine IF to that...
 
either. Once you get it it is much nicer. It was done because it was hard to parse for a possible THEN, as I have understood. The effect on programming is you have to think about using a single IF or also providing an alternative and your code is better/faster readable as a human too.
@HostileFork agreed, declare something like non-zero-digits for such a case?
 
10:07 PM
@iArnold With parse evaluating functions, you could even do everything-but: func [rule exception] [reduce ['and 'not exception rule]] Then write parse "3139" [everything-but digit "0"]
Anyway, I'm sure people will come up with lots of cool and interesting applications for the function bit. However, I'd like us to focus on these charset generators to start with.
Okay I've pinged Carl about whether he can make some time for us this weekend. I'm going out for the evening... back tomorrow...
 
0
Q: What is the best way to convert XML data to the REN format using REBOL? And converting back?

iArnoldI am looking for the best solution to convert data from XML to Readable Notation format REN and back. Of course using REBOL or Red.

 
@iArnold Arnold, REN is mostly vapourware at the moment (nothing but a README). So I fear there's is no real answer to this question, at the moment.
@iArnold Knowing a bit about StackOverflow Q&A, I'd suggest removing the question, because chances are high that it will just be voted to be closed otherwise.
 
10:27 PM
@earl Do not see how to retreat the question other than vote for delete myself, so I decided to answer it myself. (don't tell anyone, ssssssh)
 
0
A: What is the best way to convert XML data to the REN format using REBOL? And converting back?

iArnoldAs REN does not seem to be active as such, the question is asked too early. Wishful thinking perhaps?

 
Still left with this XML file to process... :-(
;-)
 
@iArnold Don't you have a "delete" link at the bottom of the question? But maybe that's only coming with a little bit more reputation :/
@iArnold Maybe @rgchris's altxml scripts can be of use: ross-gill.com/page/XML_and_REBOL
 
10:45 PM
@HostileFork There is not a ticket for that yet. I would support such a change. Although I remember there was somebody (a beginner) preferring if/else.
 
11:03 PM
if/only
 
@earl - I detected which variable crashes 64-bit R3 during startup. Try to guess before reading further ..... Correct! It was 'dump.
 
@Ladislav Heh, cool :)
@Ladislav Do I want to know the details :) ?
 
I do not know the details yet. I supposed you discussed some dump issues with Carl, didn't you?
 
Carl changed some DUMP-related behaviour after the GC bug we tracked down.
 
I would like to know the details
Aha, does that mean the GC bug was 'dump unrelated?
 
11:10 PM
0
A: How to send HTTP POST requests using only Rebol3

Graham ChiuThe documentation at http://www.rebol.net/wiki/Ports:_Synchronous_and_Asynchronous_Operations shows how to use both GET and POST These are POST examples, the second with a custom header result: write http://www.rebol.com/cgi-bin/updata.r data ; will do POST as application/x-www-form-urlencoded ...

 
@Ladislav The bug itself was an unterminated series created by utype!-related code during init.
 
Aha, not 'dump related
 
Nope. And the entry point for the additional debugging is in STATS.
@Ladislav So it's a Get_Var of 'dump that crashes?
 
11:34 PM
posted on October 04, 2013 by abolka

[Comment] Sounds like a good idea to me; but I don't have a strong opinion on this.

 
11:46 PM
Hmm, correcting myself: 'dump is really the last variable processed by Get_Var before the crash, but as I see it now, Get_Var does not crash on it.
 
@HostileFork I've given some thought to R3-Backward, and have a plan for implementing it. I think the least intrusive way to indicate it is to add a keyword (we need to decide which one) to the header options block. The Needs header won't work, necessarily, but we might be able to infer things from there if necessary. It needs to be a header setting because that is the only place where you can pick something to bind to and a top-level dialect.
 

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